Talk:Civic nationalism

Wiki Education assignment: Zionism and the Roads Not Taken 1880-1948

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 February 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sourpatchkid10 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: That guy5947.

— Assignment last updated by Bane117 (talk) 03:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Content dispute

User:Yr Enw revert edits on the basis of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. His biggest personal problem with civic nationalism, that it just simply "stole the [ideological] show" of the cradle modern democracy from the much younger (and until the late 20th century) very marginal political philosophy of Cosmopolitanism/internationalism.--Pharaph (talk) 09:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

This is a non-issue. Where have I posted that my "problem with civic nationalism, that it just simply "stole the [ideological] show" of the cradle modern democracy from the much younger (and until the late 20th century) very marginal political philosophy of Cosmopolitanism/internationalism" ?

Your accusation is barely comprehendible and neither is it Wikipedia:Edit warring. On this page I have made one partial revert, which was material you posted that just repeated information that was already in the article. Yr Enw (talk) 10:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

"Umut Özkirimli states, 'civic' nations can be as intolerant and cruel as the so-called 'ethnic' nations, citing French Jacobin techniques of persecution that were utilized by twentieth-century fascists.[6]"

Your addition must be remove, being unmeaning, due to the fact that civic nationalism has nothing to do with nazism. Nazism was ethnocentric and racist, which is the opposite of civic nationalism. 10:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC) There is no URL neither exact number of the page, thus it is a suspicious reference. --Pharaph (talk)

This is Wikipedia. If you have scholarly research that disputes Özkirimli's claim, or the claim in general, then add to the article in the appropriate place. I haven't made any arguments about Nazism. And, for what it is worth, I don't think Özkirimli is saying that the Nazis were civic nationalists. He disputes the notion that "civic" nations are less cruel or intolerant than "ethnic" ones and used the Jacobin example. That is all. If you want to bring doubt into the citation itself, fine, I will add the page number Yr Enw (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Page number and URL too. However the existence of the book, is not a guarantee for credibility, or it does not mean it is even important. Your claims are meaningless, because every political system can be cruel, even liberal democracies (which often express their cosmopolitanism) wage war for economic and geopolitical interests.--Pharaph (talk) 10:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

There is no Wikipedia policy that demands URLs should be in citations. If you want to add one, find the book and do so, I already put the page number in, that should suffice.

Like I said, if you want to dispute what Özkirimli says, then by all means cite some criticism. But we do not edit wikipedia based on personal opinion. I added the quote because it was directly relevant to the sentence before it about the literature distinguishing between the civic and ethnic taxonomy. Back and forth about your own views on the quote aren't going to improve the article.

Perhaps I am not the one engaging in Wikipedia:I just don't like it. Yr Enw (talk) 11:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Without URL, how can you prove that the reference contains your claims? Or how can the skeptic people knew, that the citation is not a fantasy, and it really contains exactly what you have claimed? How can we be sure, that the info is exactly the same, and not only just your own highly subjective interpretation of the text?--Pharaph (talk) 11:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

This is getting really petty now. There are thousands of Wikipedia citations without URLs. There is no Wiki policy that says they need to be included. That doesn't make them bad citations.

You want to check the source, then use the information that is there. If a URL was available, it would likely be copyrighted material anyway.

Unless you've got something to advance the discussion, I don't see a point continuing with this nitpicking. Yr Enw (talk) 11:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I think, your reference does not support your claims/fantasy, that's exactly why you selected and inserted a book without URL to prove its real content. Even if it is true (I doubt that), there is no reason to be in this article, especially in the lead of the article. It is illogical and meaningless. Why? Because every ideology nad political systems (including hardcore liberal "cosmopolitan" or the communist internationalists) committed war crimes against certain groups of people/countries due to economic/geopolitical interests. It is not an exclusive feature of civic nationalism. And to make any stressed analogy between nazism and liberal nationalism is false, since the nazis were dedicated enemies of civic nationalism. Learn: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Oxford_Handbook_of_American_Immigrat/wUupDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hitler+%22civic+nationalism%22&pg=PT196&printsec=frontcover

As you can see, I never give untraceable and unprovable references without URLs!--Pharaph (talk) 13:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)