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Requested move 26 September 2019

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. I'm satisfied that this is a deliberate choice by the newspaper rather than diacritic edit warring. (see also: Talk:Les Echos (Mali)) (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 19:25, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Les Échos (France) → Les Echos (France) – The newspaper generally presents its name in both text and graphic as "Les Echos" rather than "Les Échos",[1] even if the latter would be the correct spelling in French. Lordtobi (✉) 12:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose pending a better rationale. We don't really put much weight on how they style it. There is a style in French of omitting diacriticals from capital letters, but also a style of including them. The current style seems more "correct" as nom says, and more informative, and I wouldn't change it without a better rationale. Dicklyon (talk) 04:34, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Dicklyon, thanks for your input. The name "Les Echos" is a proper name; it is not bound to French spelling and is used consistently this way throughout web and print. It did use the spelling "Les Échos" (in its long name form "Les Échos de l'Exportation") formerly, but it does no longer. This is especially visible on their sub-site "Les Echos SÉRIE LIMITÉE", which includes the letter "É" and intentionally omits it for the names "Les Echos" (in both text and graphic). Lordtobi (✉) 12:41, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and speedy close per WP:FRMOS. This is font issue in French CAPS, not the correct name. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:51, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    In ictu oculi, this is not a font issue as this is how the journal (itself Francophone) represents itself, with accents otherwise present on the website and in its articles. Lordtobi (✉) 12:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So show me the É in this font set please? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, Source Sans Pro is the font in question. The É is clearly available. Also see "États-Unis", "Économie", and my "Les Echos SÉRIE LIMITÉE" example from above. Lordtobi (✉) 06:16, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a name, not a bit of running French text, therefore it is not something that can be "corrected", and there's no guarantee it would have the same spelling / punctuation / diacritics as the French word. See MOS:TMRULES: "Do not "correct" the spelling, punctuation, diacritics, or grammar of trademarks to be different from anything found in reliable sources." Unless you think that Uber should be moved to Über and Google moved to Googol. Checking, this one is a little more complicated since some sources do appear to use the form with the accent, or use mixed forms, but it seems like they predominantly honor the newspaper's preference to not have the accent. (e.g. https://www.challenges.fr/media/les-echos-se-renforce-dans-le-numerique_651631 for an example of mixed use that nevertheless favors "echoes".) SnowFire (talk) 22:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comment. This also falls under a bit of a corporate WP:ABOUTSELF. Élisabeth is usually spelled with an accent in French, but if somebody decides to purposefully omit it (perhaps they're German-French, and German Elisabeth isn't accented?), it'd be rather strange to "fix" it. What applies to a person should also apply to a newspaper. SnowFire (talk) 20:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support seems like this is just a simple error, so should be uncontroversial - the company homepage style it without a diacritic in both the logo and the "Tous droits réservés - Les Echos 2019" notice at the bottom of the page (and, as noted, the same website clearly uses diacritics everywhere else). And none of the sources use a diacritic either.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME (follow usage in sources). --В²C ☎ 00:03, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this is the English Wikipedia. French grammar rules are for French Wikipedia. Thus, the visual style used by the entity itself is significant, and how it is known in English (and much more so than it is known in French, since this is English Wikipedia, the English language usage is what we should look at first) -- 67.70.33.184 (talk) 06:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Same list of votes, but does not change the fact that é turning into E is a font issue not a real name change. I hope that any admin straying into the votes above will actually check the Newspaper and see what happens to all É with the font adopted by the paper. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.lesechos.fr/sport/football/foot-claude-puel-officiellement-nomme-a-la-tete-de-saint-etienne-1137453 are we going to rename AS Saint-Étienne because of the font used in the article?
https://www.lesechos.fr/monde/etats-unis/etats-unis-bernie-sanders-suspend-sa-campagne-apres-un-malaise-1136781 oh shit, even the USA has lost its accents. Let's change the French dictionary.
https://www.lesechos.fr/politique-societe/regions/xavier-bertrand-redemande-le-pilotage-regional-de-pole-emploi-1138325 we need to strip the French Prime-Minister of his fake accent too Édouard Philippe
Seriously, this is why we have WP:FRMOS, to stop this sort of font-following nonsense. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. To the closing admin, you should probably consider discounting IP votes (despite them agreeing with me here) due to a certain famous banned editor with strong opinions on diacritics. That said, In ictu oculi, your comments are also unresponsive to the argument being made here by supporters of a move. The proposal is not "abolish É". The claim is that "the newspaper goes by Echoes." This is not a matter of font choice. Compare https://twitter.com/LesEchos and https://twitter.com/libe (the Twitter account of Libération). Twitter does not allow users to customize Twitter's font. You'll see that Libération includes an accent in its title on Twitter, no problem, and Les Echoes does not. Your stance has exactly as much merit as "let's remove the accent and move the Libération article to Liberation": it is changing a diacritic from the self-identified name for no particular reason. SnowFire (talk) 22:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't going to mention the banned diacritic warriors (plural) and the new IP as there are several IPs it could be. But "the newspaper goes by Echoes" is also a font argument, by which the Etats Unis (sic) and Edouard (sic) Philippe, and the football team Saint-Etienne (sic) also go by E in Echoes because the newspaper goes by that font decision. But when third party sources refer to Les Échos then the third party sources describe Les Échos using full fonts, as they do the US, the football team and the Prime Minister. The whole point about stylisms - whether kR@z33 the rapper or any other stylism is that we don't follow stylisms but 3rd party WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:28, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And again we have WP:FRMOS which relieves en.wp editors of going on diacritic hunts to give "English names" to foreigners and foreign papers. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:31, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"the newspaper goes by Echoes" is also a font argument
No, it isn't. I already linked you to their Twitter page. If it was an internal font issue, they could have wrote "Échos" there in Twitter's font, which supports É just fine. They did not. SnowFire (talk) 17:38, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - while IIO does make an interesting point, that the accented capital letter É is largely suppressed on the Echos website, there are a few places where it is found, yet they still do not use it for their own title. For example:
      • [2] - on page 4 it says "Entité soeur des Études, Les Echos Publishing est spécialisé dans..."
      • [3] - the dropdown "Toutes nos vidéos" has two items in the same font, titled "Événements" (accent on the capital E) and "L'invité des Echos" (no accent).
    • Some other websites that also do the same thing:
      • [4] - "LES ECHOS SUR LES MÉDIAS SOCIAUX"
      • [5] - "LES ECHOS" and "RÉSULTATS DE DIFFUSION" are written in the same font.
    • Overall, although I can understand the argument above, it remains the case that the proper name of this organisation is "Les Echos", and not "Les Échos" and that is deliberate.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are all over the place, but that doesn't change the French Prime Minister's name. I think all that tells us is that this is a low quality MOS source. Clearly its own editors aren't following its style book if they have one. Also the fonts on different pages on the website aren't consistent. This isn't unsual. It's only the heavies that carefully police their stylebooks. But it all leads to the same conclusion, we don't need to raid their bins to inspect the rubbish. Just stick with en.wp WP:FRMOS and stop raking through low-MOS self sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:41, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Amakuru: can you do a rough sock check ? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: I'm afraid that's not in my power - I'm just a lowly administrator, not a WP:CheckUser. I guess if you really suspect socking has been going on here, you'll have to take the matter up with someone over there. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 21:58, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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