Talk:L. S. Lowry

Fact tags and NPOV

Added some fact tags, mostly to editorial comments about the artist's relationship with his mother. Anchoress 16:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed.—Theo (Talk) 12:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I agree. I question the neutrality, the necessity, and the encyclopedic nature of the following:

She is reported to have been gifted and respected. She was an irritable, nervous woman who had been brought up to expect high standards by her stern father. Like him she was controlling and intolerant of failure. She used illness as a means of securing the attention and obedience of her mild and affectionate husband and she dominated her son in the same way.

I think personally the only way such personal and pejorative comments can be included is if they are a) proven to contribute materially to Lowry's article, and b) expressed as the opinion of someone who knew her. If there's a letter or a journal that says those things, then OK, if we can cite it. But even if it's in a bio of Lowry, it's still too POV IMO. Anchoress 13:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

From memory, this paraphrases the report of his biographer Shelley Rohde. It is consistent with my own conversations with people who knew Lowry's mother. These conversations are not acceptable sources for Wikipedia but they make me willing to accept the apparently subjective comments in the published biographies. I recognise that these people may well have been the sources used by Rohde and others so the argument could be circular. —Theo (Talk) 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess I have a problem with this. Even if it were an article about her, it would be too POV for inclusion unless it were an actual quote. As in, 'In a letter to his friend, Lowry said: "My mother is controlling and intolerant of failure, and uses illness to gain attention and dominate."' Since the article isn't even about her, and it's really an interpretation of her character (even if it's true), I don't see how it can be included. It would (IMO) have to a) be directly attributable to someone who knew her as a citable quote, and b) be shown to constitute a material contribution to the Lowry article. Just my $.02 Anchoress 21:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

dwelling.jpg copyright

The copyright-free status of this image should be re-checked. If it's a photograph purportedly taken before 1923, and the painting was done in 1927, there is an obvious conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.155.243.141 (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Oasis Promo Video

The graphics in Oasis' new Video for "The Masterplan" of the upcoming Best Of (2006) are basically imitations of Lowry's paintings. Video on youtube.com Baz

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.216.91 (talk) 14:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"Marionette" works

The introduction makes passing reference to these but never expands in the article. I'm very vaguely aware of them having been discovered but if they are alluded to so early they should be explained a little more in some way.

Rrose Selavy 14:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:L.S. Lowry.jpg

We have a problem with this. It uses the {{Non-free book cover}} template, which means that: 1) any article that uses it must do so to reference the book specifically, not the book's subject in general; and 2) there must be a detailed fair-use rationale, which is not there. Either or both of these are potential grounds for deletion of the image, so this needs sorting out quickly. 81.158.2.204 02:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Birthplace: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.116.165 (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Lowry was born in Old Trafford not Stretford. Go and check the blue plaque on Old Trafford library, Shrewsbury Street. Barratt Street was a couple of streets away from this site. Now there is a sports field on the site. MBP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.116.165 (talk) 15:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"Marionette" works (again)

As a previous editor mentioned, it's unsatisfactory just to make passing reference and then not explain at all - a single external link at the bottom is not enough. Please add some context. 86.132.142.246 (talk) 22:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Added a little extra content - don't know if it helps.

Absurdtrousers (talk) 15:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Status Quo song

On http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=7820 it says that 'Pictures of Matchstick Men' was inspired by the artist's work. Baz — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.32.119 (talk) 09:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Stretford

Just a note that Stretford is not, nor has ever been a part of the City of Manchester. It is close to Manchester, part of the Manchester post town, and now part of Greater Manchester, but it is not within Manchester's statutory boundaries. At the time of Lowry's birth Stretford, Salford, Swinton and Pendlebury were all in Lancashire. Therefore, Lowry was born in "Stretford, Lancashire". Hope that helps! -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

To add to the above re Stretford in Lancashire before 01/04/1974

7.^ Greater Manchester did not exist prior to 1st April 1974. Before that date, Stretford, like many other places, was part of Lancashire. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE.

He was born in Stretford (Lancs) in Barrett Street, but to be slightly more accurate Barrett Street was in the Old Trafford district of Stretford. 'Old Trafford' is not just the name of two famous sports stadiums (football and cricket) but also an area of Stretford. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.233.151 (talk) 11:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Big gaps in chronology

Lots of huge gaps here.... the most obvious omission from the main contents being a discussion of his life as an artist (if there is such discussion, it is not under an appropriate heading). Also, it is mentioned that he retired from Pall Mall Property, but prior to this, there is no mention at all that he worked for this company, when he joined or what he did there. What happened after he left art school? This is blank.86.177.94.225 (talk) 11:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Lowry attended evening classes at the Municipal college between 1905—1915 before "graduating" to the Salford School of Art where he continued to study for the next ten years (under Bernard D. Taylor, art critic for the Manchester Guardian) until 1925. He exhibited widely after this point in student shows, but with little financial success. The first Lowry painting to be sold at auction was Coming Out of School (1927), which was bought by the Duveen Fund for Tate London but not publically exhibited until 1949. An Accident (1930) was the first work purchased for a public collection by Manchester City Art Gallery. His career path appears to have been very slow after this: it wasn't until the early 30s that he started to sell more steadily (by which time his paintings had appeared in small commercial galleries across the UK, the Salon in Paris and even as far as New York). In 1934, he was elected a member of the Manchester Academy and the Royal Society of British Artists.

In terms of his working life, which he kept seperate from his artistic career, although there was considerable crossover, he worked as a clerk for Thomas Aldred and Son (Chartered Accountants) from 1904—1907 before joining the General Accident, Fire and Life Assurance Corporation (again as a clerk) until he was made redundant in 1910. It was then that he started at the Pall Mall Property Company Ltd until he retired in 1953.

Absurdtrousers (talk) 13:16, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I came here to ask exactly the same question as 86.177.94.225 did: Wy is the Pall Mall company first mentioned only when he retired from it at age 65? You have provided some info, but it needs to go into the article, not just bandied about here on the talk page. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 05:20, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Protected status

Given the amount of vandalism this page undergoes would other users agree that it would be an appropriate course of action to provide it with protected status? Absurdtrousers (talk) 14:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Following the removal of the semi protection tag I placed on the page yesterday —sorry, guys, this vandalism is getting way too excessive— I have made a formal request for page protection. Absurdtrousers (talk) 12:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Turned down. Pffffffh. Absurdtrousers (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Lowry's got the blues

Is it relevant that Lowry supported Manchester City? It seems fairly trivial at the moment, but if there's a source which says if (and preferably how) it affected his work it would certainly be worth including. At the moment I'm really not sure it is. Also, I'm not sure the bit about being "seen as a somewhat introvert person" is necessarily linked to supporting City; I presume it's there to as contrast, to show that he wasn't necessarily introverted, but going supporting a football team doesn't necessarily mean someone isn't introverted. Nev1 (talk) 18:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I have re-written, since I think it is interesting. Perhaps its only "relevance" is the link to his football match scenes. But olny one source seems a bit thin, doesn't it. And that source says nothing about introversion or Lowry actually attending (one assumes he did), as it's more about Ben Kelly than Lowry. So my own re-write may also be getting uncomfortably close to WP:OR. Perhaps another source would help? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

His painting The Football Match recently sold for a high price so possibly it could be more relevant in connection to it. (This article indicates he was a supporter of said team, but for all I know they're going by Wikipedia on that.)--T. Anthony (talk) 10:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

non sequitur

"although seen as a somewhat introvert person, Lowry was a supporter of Manchester City Football Club."

Do only extroverts normally support Manchester City? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.58.173 (talk) 13:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Have attempted a re-write. See comment above. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The Elms

Is there a free image of The Elms which could be added to the article? It seems that the property is currently for sale [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I now see there are there are already two at Commons, and that geograph also has this one: [2]. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

On the blue plaque his name is wrongly spelled as 'Lawrence Stephen Lowry' (should be "Laurence Stephen Lowry"). Tameside council, hang your heads in shame, how very unprofessional is that. IMO complete 'amateurs' is a polite description of Tameside council. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.233.151 (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• 
• 

Mother's occupation

The article says: "After Lowry's birth, his mother's health was too poor for her to continue teaching. She is reported to have been gifted and respected, with aspirations of becoming a concert pianist." So, was she a teacher? A piano techer? A music teacher? It's not explained. Most bio articles give the occupation of both parents. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 09:20, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Reginald Waywell

It seems that Waywell briefly had a Wikipedia article in April 2014: [3]. But unable to find any sources that support the claim about exhibition with Lowry. I guess there must be some somewhere, but probably not online. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

There's a declined submission at Draft:Reginald Waywell. Regards, Mr Stephen (talk) 23:56, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

A great shame. Just lacking refs. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Reginald Waywell was recently awarded a Doctorate in Fine Art from Chester University signed by the duke of Westminster Wikipedia clearly doesn't understand or recognise the British awards system. If a University awards someone such a high accolade then they are worthy of a Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.108.169 (talk) 22:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

The Cripples

@Martinevans123: I can see why you might think that a man known as 'Johnny on wheels' / 'Johnny on the board' featuring on The Cripples is dubious. I've added a ref that is a more reliable source. I know the information to be correct as I was told by a guide at the Lowry, obviously that is no good for Wikipedia and you have no reason to believe me. Maybe other people have more information about this picture? Jonpatterns (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's advisable to edit Wikipedia based on what a guide at The Lowry tells you! But the source you have added, by Sir Bert Massie, seems fine to me. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Father born in Ireland

I have copy edited this claim by the anon ip editor, which has also led to the addition of Category:English people of Irish descent, although unsure of it's notability. The source provided is not of the highest quality. But I'm unable to find a definite WP:RS as an alternative. But I have found a post on the message boards of ancestry.co.uk which contradicts the claim. It says this:

"LS Lowry's father was not Irish, He was born in 1857 in Manchester and was called Robert Stephens Mc All (or McAle) Lowry who married Elizabeth Hobson in 1885 at Blackley St Andrew Manchester. Robert was one of seven surviving children of Frederick Lowry and Eliza Berry who married in 1844 at Manchester Cathedral. Frederick Lowry (1820) was the son of Jacob Lowry and Eliza (Ukn). On the 1841 census it has Jacob born 1776 and Eliza born 1781 both in Lancashire, on a later census there is a sibling for Frederick:: John born 1826 Liverpool."

What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

In this obituary which seems to have been printed in the Guardian and The Times (click on Return to L.S. Lowry Contents Page at the bottom) his "ancestry on his father's side derived from Northern Ireland". That doesn't sound like his father was Irish, but it does mean the category English people of Irish descent is accurate. Richerman (talk) 23:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

How intriguing. "Seems to have been"? I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to find copies of those newspapers from 1976. But it may have been his grandfather (or even his ancestors) who were from Northern Ireland. I'm not sure we should use that Category without adequate support in the text. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I say that because the links from the Guardian and the Times both go to that page. I could be that's a mistake or that the same obit was printed in both. I do have access to the Times website but the search on the archive pages keeps disappearing behind an advert. You can get access through Manchester libraries too. Richerman (talk) 12:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes, I'm used to being told all about Manchester libraries, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

After a lot of trawling I've found the article in the Manchester library archives. It was in the Guardian in 1976 (not 1970) under the title "Lowry included figures simply because they were part of the observed scene. To him they became items of composition". I'll add it when I have some time. Richerman (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks for your perseverance. So I guess the current text and category can stay. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The category can but not the text which presently says his father was born in Ireland - he was of Irish descent. Richerman (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I see that you've decided the new anonymous source trumps the previous questionable one, which was also anonymous, but was copyrighted to "united MANCHESTER". I'm surprised that a source which has no mention of the claim being made can be used, but I guess it's just a stop-gap. Perhaps a page number from The Guardian of 24 February 1976 might be adequate? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I think an article from a quality newspaper is more likely to be reliable than one from a commercial website "Celebrating life in the rock'n'goal capital of the world". Many newspaper articles don't give the writers name so that isn't really a problem. Looking at the full page view it's actually from the Arts Guardian page 10 so I'll add that. Richerman (talk) 23:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I quite agree. Many thanks. Shame we still don;t know where Lowry's father was born. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Richerman, hope you are well after all this time. Re this recent edit with the summary "There was no such thing as Northern Ireland until 1921. Also, his family are from an area currently in Republic of Ireland", I currently have access to that page of The Guardian Arts article, on page 10 and I see that the far right-hand column is indeed unsigned. But I also see that it says: "Lowry's ancestry on his father's side derived from Northern Ireland." The anon IP 82 is right to say that "there was no such thing as Northern Ireland until 1921", but there was still the Geographical area of northern Ireland. Perhaps the IP can tell us where the area actually was/ is? If not I'm tempted to revert to "Northern Ireland" as per the source, or perhaps change to north of Ireland, because of the IP comment. What do you think? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Allen Andrews, in his 1977 The Life of L. S. Lowry, 1887-1976, says that Lowry's grandfather Frederick was born in Ulster, so I have added that instead. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Dreadful article

Full of irrelevancies, repetitions, POV, hearsay, gossip and tittle-tattle, unattributed assertions and extremely stilted style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 12:54, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Please provide examples or, better still, suggest improvements. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

"his mother Elizabeth, who hoped for a girl, was uncomfortable even looking at him at first"

"His father ... was, by all accounts, a quiet man who was at his most comfortable fading into the background as an unobtrusive presence"

"depending how tired he was" - this is a VERY slapdash/slangy style (it should be "depending ON how tired her was".

Plenty more ...

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 15:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

So, do you think you could manage to add the "on"? But I think it should still be "he" not "her". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Threads - Popular Culture

A Lowry painting is shown in the 1984 film Threads being removed from a museum wall for preservation in expectation of an imminent nuclear war. I don't know the name of the painting, and I don't know which museum is shown, but Threads was an insanely popular movie, and it's a statement that at least one Lowry was worth preserving as a treasure of British art. I think this is a very important reference in popular culture that should be included, but I can't add it myself. (I came to this page because I didn't even know Lowry's name, let alone his works. I just recognized his style.) It appears at about 38 minutes into the film on my copy. Dcs002 (talk) 01:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes Threads was very popular. But is Lowry or the painting mentioned by name? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)