Talk:Kolozsmonostor Abbey

Abbey v church

I think there is a difference between an abbey (an ecclesiastic institution) and a church (a building). For instance, the cathedral church of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Alba Iulia is the St. Michael's Church, but there are two separate articles about them. Borsoka (talk) 02:27, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The rather significant difference is that the archdiocese covers 58 thousand km² and nearly half a million believers, while the cathedral is just one building (albeit its most important). In this case, the abbey is essentially coterminous with the church, even if their history diverged after a certain point. This is a fork (inadvertent, good faith, but still a fork), and the content should be transferred to the article about the church. - Biruitorul ^Talk 21:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

No, there is no significant difference. The abbey was a significant landowner and an important administrative institution (as a place of authentication) in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary. Could you refer to reliable sources which describe the building as the owner of dozens of villages or a place of authentication? Borsoka (talk) 00:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

These are diversions from the main point, which is that we have lots of articles on monasteries that were considerably more powerful than this one: Hirsau Abbey, Cluny Abbey, Farfa Abbey, Glastonbury Abbey, etc. All of them owned significant amounts of land, held various special status, and so on. Today, all are much reduced from their peak - only one still operates as a monastery. Yet we manage to have a single article on all of them. The idea of having two tiny articles on two entities with a direct historical relation is a form of special pleading. - Biruitorul ^Talk 13:51, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Would you refer to WP rules stating that an article about an institution is to be merged into the article about the building in which the institution's seat is/was located? Why do you think that the article about the almost 500-year-long history of the Kolozsmonostor Abbey would be tiny? For instance, there is an article dedicated to the abbey in the Hungarian Catholic Lexicon, it is quite long: [1]. The Kolozsvár Abbey was the wealthiest monastery in Transylvania. The bishops of Transylvania waged wars against its abbots in the early 13th century. It was destroyed during the Mongol invasion. One of its abbots forged charters to prove its claim to certain estates. It was dissolved and re-established before being donated to the Jesuits. Sorry, the article about the church was not created by me. I only assume that an article about a Renaissance building in Transylvania could be expanded. Borsoka (talk) 16:39, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

If both articles remain in place, it should be checked if the linking to the articles from other wikis (Esperanto, Français, Magyar, Română) is made corrrectly, or the linking should be made to Cluj-Mănăștur Calvaria Church. 123Steller (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

The Hungarian article is dedicated to the abbey. As far as I understand, the Esperanto, the French and Romanian articles are dedicated to the church. Borsoka (talk) 00:44, 19 May 2017 (UTC)