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Requested move 26 February 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Support and opposition is roughly equal, with supporters citing a general trend / convention in favour of non-hyphenated names, and opposers pointing out that there has been no decisive demonstration of a WP:COMMONNAME here. Overall then, there is no clear consensus and we remain where we are.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– since Kim Jong Un and his father and grandfather have been discussed to move to these new names, the rest of his family should follow suit too. Joséthewikier (talk) 06:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose I see roughly half of publications using the hyphen and half not. New York Times, the Guardian, South China Morning Post, News Corp, use -. New York Post, CBC, Forbes use space. Since there is no clear prominent use, just leave it as it is. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Korea has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Socialism has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Women has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:COMMONNAME should be established for these people. toobigtokale (talk) 12:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support The general direction of style guidelines is to move away from hyphens which are seen as old-fashioned old fashioned. It's where things are headed for better or worse. It won't be a complete transition some hyphens will always exist, and it won't happen quickly or smoothly, but that is the trend. -- GreenC 15:23, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean this for Koreans in general, North Koreans, or the Kim family specifically? Either way, I find the wording here overly broad. I've read multiple threads now where people claim (sometimes without evidence procided) that all North Koreans are commonly referred to with the no space format, but I disagree; some are nearly exclusive to academic contexts where McCune–Reischauer without spaces is dominant.
In general I've seen these threads talk about a change to the naming policy, but no such change has actually been proposed to the naming policy yet. Until a change is proposed, I'm of the opinion that common name is what matters for these people. toobigtokale (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment WP:COMMONNAME is the first consideration; OP has provided no sources for any of the proposed moves. Per WP:NCKO, McCune–Reischauer is used for North Korean names (if there is no established usage in English-language sources.) Per that article: "In personal names, each syllable in a Sino-Korean given name is separated by a space with the first letter of each syllable capitalized." There is no requirement for family members' names to be consistent. 162 etc. (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - All names of NK-related people, past and living, have to follow the official NK romanization of Korean whith no hyphen, not the SK one. Thus, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un, Kim Yo-jong, Ko Yong-hui, Kim Jong-suk, Kim Yong-ju etc. were moved to Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Kim Yo Jong, Ko Yong Hui, Kim Jong Suk, Kim Yong Ju etc. Even SK dictator Park Chung-hee was moved around the same time to Park Chung Hee. GreatLeader1945 TALK 09:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Park Chung Hee doesn't work as a supporting argument here; I've pointed this out to you before. That move happened purely because of common name, not because of the North Korean standard. It has nothing to do with why those other North Korean peoples' articles were moved. toobigtokale (talk) 09:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Toobigtokale Still, my point stands as I've given many NK-related examples. The Park Chunge Hee one is a bonus - more in the sense of "See, the hyphen gets dropped even from SK-related people's names!" kind of thing. GreatLeader1945 TALK 09:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Your point doesn't stand. WP:COMMONNAME needs to be established or there needs to be a policy change to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean) to set a standard for North Korean people. Furthermore, your point is imprecise; you say All names of NK-related people, past and living, have to follow the official NK romanization of Korean whith no hyphen, but in other comments you concede that COMMONNAME can override the NK standard.
    The Park Chung Hee point isn't a bonus because it's not related. It's a different country with, as you point out, a different romanization standard. If I found a Chinese person's name having a hyphen added to it for common name reasons and tried to use that as evidence, I'd be rightfully dismissed. toobigtokale (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also disagree that all NK people "have to follow" that standard. WP:COMMONNAME will overrule the standard if it needs to. If the entire English speaking world started spelling Kim Il Sung as "Kim Il-sung", we would eventually switch to spelling it like that because of COMMONNAME, regardless of NK's official preferences. toobigtokale (talk) 09:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Toobigtokale That's how the realities of things are for now, regardless of your preferences. Kim Il Sung etc. won't change back world-wide to Kim Il-sung anytime soon. GreatLeader1945 TALK 09:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ...I actually prefer the names without the hyphens. We're on the same side but I don't think your or the move request's logic is sound. toobigtokale (talk) 09:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I will summarize my argument one final time for clarity.
    Currently, spelling North Korean peoples' names without spaces by default or universally is not codified in WP:NCKO. In fact, NCKO actually goes against this, and recommends hyphenation by default. I'd argue if a unilateral change to the North Korean naming policy is desired, you guys should go for it. Otherwise, for these individual moves, if evidence of WP:COMMONNAME is not provided and all you have is precedent of a few different people (even if same family; my mom romanizes her name differently from mine), I'd argue the move request doesn't have adequate support.
    If someone proposes a change to NCKO, as long as the reasoning is sound I'd probably be in support of it. But so far that's not been done. toobigtokale (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

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Passed. seefooddiet (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Kim Ju-ae/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Yue (talk · contribs) 04:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Seefooddiet (talk · contribs) 00:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Seems like this is the only good image available of her on Commons, although I suspect maybe there are images of her online that are permissible for use? Either way it's a short article so maybe not that important or useful.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    See notes

Notes

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Hi again, I'm taking up this review! Again it'll be quick due to the solid writing.

  • Have you verified that the hyphen in her name is the common spelling? It's possibly "Kim Ju Ae", given North Korean romanization.
  • "is the daughter" in first sentence may read to some that she is the only daughter, "is a daughter" may be more appropriate.
  • Think it's worth somehow indicating the alternate proposed names for her in the lead somehow. When you read only the lead it kinda gives the impression that it's "Ju-ae" vs. no alternatives. Since there are only two major alternate possible names, think they're worth mentioning in the lead.
  • It'd be nice but optional to have the corresponding Korean text for "beloved", "precious", and "respected"; these somewhat serve as titles for her.

Pulling more content ideas from Namuwiki. That corresponding article is really long, and is mostly speculation and hearsay of varying quality, so I think you made the right choice with keeping this article brief. Feel free to use or disregard anything here, just suggestions.

  • [1] This 2022 news report says an unnamed defector had escorted two high-ranking North Korean children on an overseas trip, who were named "Ju-eun" and "Ju-ae". The article proposes that the "Ju" particle comes from Ri Sol-ju's name, and the "Eun" particle from Kim Jong Un's. It then proposes that the Hanja for her name is 主愛 (think worth including Hanja somewhere in the article).
  • [2] But Kim’s school friend João Micaelo told Radio Free Asia in an interview in May that the dictator may not actually have fathered a son at all, as he never mentioned a male offspring during their conversations. [3] In March, South Korea’s top intelligence agency said Mr Kim could have three children and the eldest could be a male heir. The National Intelligence Service (NIS) told the parliamentary intelligence committee that it continued to believe that he has a son but does not have "concrete evidence”. (original interview in Korean on radio free asia, more or less says same things as these eng lang sources).

I've checked refs 1, 2, 6, 7, 10, and 21, and they all support given claims. seefooddiet (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have included the suggestions stated above; the spelling of her name "Kim Ju Ae", changed "is the daughter" to "is a daughter", and included the sources 1, 2 and 3. Pangalau (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Seefooddiet: Thank you for taking up one of my GA nominations again, I appreciate it. I will take a look at your content suggestions and review Pangalau's contributions as well in a short bit. Cheers! Yue🌙 19:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Seefooddiet: These changes should fulfill your content suggestions without contradicting verifiability policies. Some answers to the points you raised:
  • Reliable sources in English seem to be half-half between having the hyphen and not having it. Because of a recently failed move proposal for this article and similar topics, I opted not to propose a move before starting the GA nom. A note was added to the lead about the alternate spelling.
  • Your other three points were fulfilled. I kept the Korean for the adjectives out of the lead though because it seemed too cluttery in my opinion. They aren't the full titles in the lead anyways, so it seems unnecessary to have the Hangul, while the claimed names definitely should.
Yue🌙 20:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree on half-half assessment. Unfortunately that seems to be the case for many North Koreans.
  • Agree on not needing to include them in lead.
Everything else seems good to me! Well done. seefooddiet (talk) 20:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

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(
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  • Source: "As North Korea unveils stamps of Kim's daughter, South doubts she is successor". South China Morning Post. 16 February 2023. Retrieved 26 October 2024.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Xu Xinfu
  • Comment: I chose not to include the name "Kim Ju-ae" in this hook because her name has not been confirmed by either of the two Korean governments, as of the time of this nomination.
Improved to Good Article status by Yue (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 24 past nominations.

Yue🌙 04:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

  • Comment I think having the hook be something like "... that the name of the daughter of North Korean Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un has not yet been confirmed by either Korea?" may be fun. Probably needs to be reworded to be less wordy though. seefooddiet (talk) 09:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • ALT1: ... that North Korean media has never referred to Kim Jong Un's daughter by name, only as his "respected", "precious" or "beloved" daughter?
Sources:
ALT2: ... that the name of Kim Jong Un's daughter has not been confirmed by either of the two Koreas?
Source: Kang, Hyun-kyung (16 November 2023). "North Korean leader's daughter known by wrong name: expert". The Korea Times. Retrieved 18 October 2024.
ALT3: ... that the name of Kim Jong Un's daughter is not publicly known?
Source: Same as ALT2's.
The descriptors "Supreme Leader", "North Korean leader" or "its leader" could be added by the promoter to any of the hooks if they are successful, but I personally do not think the descriptors are necessary. I am confident that most readers would know who Kim Jong Un is, or at least be able to make the connection with the context of North Korea already there. Having so many extra words just makes the sentence wordy and unnatural. Yue🌙 22:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like ALT3. Punchy and concise. In my orig proposal the reason I mentioned "either Koreas" is because the nature of their confirmation would differ, which is somewhat interesting. It means that North Korea did not announce it and South Korea hasn't figured it out yet. I think it's hard to communicate that though, so maybe just not worth mentioning. seefooddiet (talk) 00:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Yue🌙 00:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will review this, since above I see only discussion about alt hooks (I agree ALT3 is likely the best). Anyway, article been nominated on time. Hooks are neutral (ALT3 is best), references and article text confirm them. Article, as expected from a recent GA, is fine (long, referenced, comprehensive, neutral etc. etc.). QPQ has been done. We are GTG here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:31, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Why did we decide on Ju-ae?

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The lead of the article does not make it clear why we went with 'Ju-ae' variant over one of the other names suggested as plausible, outside of it being possibly the oldest suggestion? If her name is not confirmed, I think the article should be renamed to Kim Jong Un's daughter. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most reliable English-language sources still use "Kim Ju-ae", as evidenced by the more recent citations in this article. Regardless, a serious discussion on such a move or generally on the topic of this article's title has yet been done. If you do decide to start a move proposal, I'm sure more arguments for and against such a proposal would arise and we would hear more on the matter from the community. Yue🌙 03:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Yue There is a chance recent outside sources are affected by WP:CITOGENESIS :( I.e we may be guilty of spreading fake news... (well, incorrect information, at least) :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 November 2024

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Kim Ju-ae → Kim Jong Un's daughter – Per discussion above and the article itself (see second paragraph in "Early reports and uncertainties") - her name is not known; there are contradicting reports about her name, all pretty much speculation. Kim Ju-ae seems to be the first name proposed in the public discourse, but since then, others have been suggested. This article should not give priority to one possible name, even if it is a bit more common in the media (because it was the first and mentioned by an English celebrity; unlike others). I don't think WP:COMMONNAME appears here, given that it is just a speculation based on what one celebrity might have (mis)heard. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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