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Archive 1Archive 2

Sarajevo 1914

Addressed:Information about Dangić being a member of Young Bosnia, about him being arrested following Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, about his father's imprisonment and death are added to the article

There are some sources which claim that Dangic was arrested by Austrians after the Sarajevo assassination in 1914 and sentenced to several years of prison as member of Yugoslavist movement Young Bosnia. If that is true it should be presented in the article, both in its text and its lede, together with clarification about the ideology of Young Bosnia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Please provide the sources in question and if they're reliable I don't see any reason why these facts shouldn't be included in the article. 23 editor (talk) 17:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Dangić and related topics are not subject of my interest, so I am uncertain about them and the reliability of sources. Maybe editors who are more acquainted in the Chetniks subject can help to estimate reliabilty of the sources in context of the assertions they support. Here are some of them that confirm 1914 imprisonment of Dangić, some of them asserting that he was trialed in Tuzla:
  • Tomislav Krsmanović (2003). Drinski rašomon: dnevnik. Sfairos. p. 47. Retrieved 29 September 2013. Јездимир Дангић је рођен 1987. године у Братунцу. Због припадања наци- онално-револуционарној организацији „Млада Босна", 1914. године, на судским процесима у Тузли, осућен је на тамновање,...
  • Vladimir Dedijer (1966). Sarajevo hiljadu devetstso četraneste. Prosveta. p. 583. Retrieved 29 September 2013. ...Јездимир Дангић на две и по ...
  • Veljko Đ Đurić (2001). Major Dangić. Pogledi. p. 11. Retrieved 29 September 2013. Дангић је рсфен 4. маја 1897. године у Братунцу, срез Сребреница. Због припадања на- ционално-револуционарној организацији "Млада Босна", 1914. године на судским процесима у Тузли је осуђен на тамновање.... - this source also says that his father's name was Savo.
  • Pero Slijepčević (1929). Napor Bosne i Hercegovine za oslobođenje i ujedinjenje. Izd. Obl. odbora nar. odbrane. p. 230. Retrieved 29 September 2013. Саво Дангић, с. сребренички код кућеумро 31. X. 1915 после затвора у Тузли - This source says that Savo Dangic was priest in Srebrenica and that he was also imprisoned in Tuzla during WWI and listed among Serb victims of persecution of the Serbs which followed Sarajevo 1914 assassination. checkY
  • Branko Memedović (1987). Pola veka na srpskoj njivi, 1934-1984. Izd. SNO u Kanadi. p. 228. Retrieved 29 September 2013. Дангић је рођен у Подрињу, са Босанске стране, недалеко од Зворника. Гимназију учио у Тузли и као ђак припадао организацији Младе Босне, због чега је хапшен и затваран, пред Први светски рат, и био суђен и осуђиван... - this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla.
  • According to some sources he even wrote two books about his imprisonment in Tuzla ("Naše Tamnovanje", Tuzla 1938 and "Glad i tamnica", Novi Sad, 1940)
  • There are numerous websites that present text of Dangić's letter to Ustaša commander of Zvornik. In this letter he emphasize that he was imprisoned for three and a half years because he was Yugoslav nationalist.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Čolaković visit

Addressed:Assertion about Colakovic's visit removed because of lack of reliable source which supports it. Busic was determined as unreliable.

What is the meaning/context/relevance of that sentence? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Čolaković was a Communist politician and it is notable that he chose to visit an imprisoned Chetnik commander. 23 editor (talk) 20:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Their connection is also mentioned in Family section on this talkpage.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Family

According to the below source:

  • NIN: nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. 1995. p. 20. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Наша мајка Невена Дангић, рође- на Јовановић, удова почившег Језди- мира Дангића,[Our mother Nevena Dangić, born Jovanović, widow of late Jezdimir Dangić]

Dangic had a wife (Nevena) and children.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC) He had brother Vojin, who also was chetnik:

  • Rodoljub Čolaković (1966). Zapisi iz Oslobodilačkog rata. "Prosveta," "Kultura,". p. 148. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Јездимир Дангић покушао да искупи бар један батаљон четника и да нападне Нову Касабу и Милиће. С тим задатком кренуо је ње- гов брат, Војин Дангић, из Братунца--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC) [Jezdimir Dangić attempted to gather at least a battalion of Chetniks to attack New Kasaba and Milići. With the same task his brother, Vojin Dangić, came from Bratunac]
That looks fine. The connection with Čolaković is interesting. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes it is. I think I saw somewhere that two of them were good friends because Dangic was leftist in his youth and as communist sympathizer collaborated with communists at the beginning of the WWII. If that is true it certainly deserves to be better researched.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC) checkY
Enver Redžić (already used in the article) explains that two of them were members of the joint Chetnik-Partisan command:
  • Enver Redžić (2005). Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Second World War. Frank Cass. p. 159. ISBN 978-0-7146-5625-0. Retrieved 30 September 2013. The members of the joint command were Major Jezdimir Dangic, Captain Sergije Mihailovic and Pero Dukanovic on the Chetnik side, and Rodoljub Colakovic, Slobodan Princip and Svetozar Vukmanovic on the Partisan side.
I am surprised that such important information was overlooked. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Even official SFRY institute confirms this:
  • Vojno-istoriski glasnik. 1950. p. 52. Retrieved 30 September 2013. У Оперативни штаб ушли су од стране партизана: Светозар Вук- мановић-Темпо, Родољуб Чолаковић и Слободан Принцип-Сељо, а од стране четника: Јездимкр Дангић, капетан Сергије Михајловић и Перо Ђукановић--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[The Operational Headquarter was composed of following Partisans: Svetozar Vukmanović Tempo, Rodoljub Čolaković and Slobodan Princip-Seljo, and from Chetnik side: Jezdimir Dangić, captain Sergije Mihajlović and Pero Đukanović]
  • More about family: Dedijer/Miletić, page 88: "Pero Dangić rođak majora Dangića ubijen je od strane Njemaca." [Pero Dangic, cousin of major Dangic was killed by Germans"--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • After Dangic's extradiction to Yugoslavia his wife wrote a letter to Tito begging him to release Dangic from prison. Tito rejected. - NIN. nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. 2000. p. 59. Retrieved 1 October 2013. Мол- ба Дангићеве жене маршалу Титу за по- миловање била је одбијена.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[The plead of Dangićs wife to marshal Tito was rejected]
  • In respect of all of the above, and generally on this page, quotes in Serbian Cyrillic should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. I also believe that it is necessary to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if you would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources here. I will not be addressing any of your comments unless they include a translation. I have copied this onto your talk page to make sure you are clear about it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:50, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:NONENG, WP:V and WP:RELIABLE

I am placing this in its own section, as I believe it has become necessary to reinforce what WP policy expects from editors on talk pages in respect of bringing non-English sources. These policies have apparently been lost sight of in a rush to produce dozens of "possible" sources for various things about the subject of this article. Quotes in languages other than English should always be accompanied by a translation into English, per WP:NONENG. When producing quotes from sources that are not in English, in order to meet the requirements of WP:V, it is necessary for editors to provide greater context than just a sentence pulled out of a source. I would appreciate it if all editors on this talk page would comply with WP:NONENG in future when producing sources. I personally will not be addressing any comments that include non-English text unless they include a full translation (not a summation of the content). It is also very important that editors producing non-English sources on talk pages (assuming they are bringing them because they consider they may be WP:RELIABLE) that information is provided about the author and publisher. Otherwise, the editor producing the source could be giving the impression that they expect other editors to do their work for them in showing that the source(s) are reliable (or not). Of course, there would be little point bringing clearly unreliable sources to a talk page (especially self-published ones), and some editors might consider that repeatedly doing so is disruptive. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:29, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Bratunac, Vlasenica, Foča...?

There are sources that Dangić took Foča from Axis forces (and according to some of them persecuted its Muslim population).

  • Vučeta Redžić (2002). Građanski rat u Crnoj Gori: Dešavanja od sredine 1942. godine do sredine 1945. godine. Stupovi. p. 59. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Четнички командант заузео је Фочу у децембру 1941[Chetnik commander took Foca in December 1941]
  • even Croatian institute (probably not quite neutral and reliable) confirms this Tomislav Markus (2002). Predstavke županija i gradova banske Hrvatske: 1861.-1867. : izbrani dokumenti. Hrvatski institut za povijest. p. 182. ISBN 978-953-6491-84-1. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Tako su četnici još istoga dana ušli u Goražde, a 5. prosinca 1941. u Foču, u kojoj su ostali do 20. siječnja 1942[So Chetniks entered Gorazde on the same daz and on 5. December into Foca where they stayed until 20 January 1942]
  • even official institute in 1950 (probably not quite neutral and reliable) indirectly confirms this assertion Vojnoistorijski institut (Belgrade, Serbia) (1950). Zbornik Dokumenta. p. 367. Retrieved 30 September 2013. У градовима: Фочи, Горажду, Чајничу, као и у" околним селима завладао је дивљи терор. Четничке руље под воћством разних Дангића, Михаило- вића, Ђекића, Тодоровића и других издајника[In cities: Foca, Gorazde, Cajnice as well as in the surrounding villages was wild terror. Chetnik hordes under command of Dangic, Mihailovic, Djekic, Todorovic and other threators....]

Foča is not even mentioned in the article. Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Milazzo mentions a move to the Foca area, but the Italians occupied the town after the Partisans left and went to Zelengora, so it seems unlikely Dangic had much to do with it. He may have worked with the Italians when they occupied it. I'll be using Milazzo to add more detail. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It seems that Dangic was commander of Chetnik forces (then allied with partisans) that managed to drive out Axis forces from Bratunac and Srebrenica in August 1941:
  • Vojno-istoriski glasnik. 1950. pp. 36, 37. Retrieved 30 September 2013. ...Братунац „славио побједу". Дангић је успио да се натури за команданта тамошњих снага, које су првих дана устанка биле окулљене око Пере Ђукановића[... Bratunac celebrated a victory. Dangic managed to impose himself as commander of the forces that initially during first days of rebellion were gathered around Pera Djukanovic]
But Čolaković later decided to attack Chetniks in Bratunac.
  • Rodoljub Čolaković (1966). Zapisi iz Oslobodilačkog rata. "Prosveta," "Kultura,". p. 141. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Дангић и Ботић су у Братунцу, гдје се налази четничка команда позадине. Ријешили смо да одмах ноћас нападнемо Власеницу, па тек онда да кренемо на Братунац. Ако бисмо одмах пошли на Братунац, Дангић ће побјећи[Dangic and Botic are in Bratunac where Chetnik headquarter for supplies was. We decided to attack Vlasenica immediately, and only then to go to Bratunac. Otherwise, if we would attack Bratunac now, Dangic will escape...]
The article presents Bratunac and Srebrenica as towns under Dangic's command, but fails to present information that Chetniks drove out Axis forces from Bratunac.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The same goes for Vlasenica.
  • The article presents information about Dangić and his Chetniks being in Vlasenica but fails to provide any explanation about it. There are many sources which claim that Vlasenica was also under control of Dangić. Even official military institute of SFRY confirms that Dangić commanded forces that captured Vlasenica (Rudi Petovar; Savo Trikić (1982). Šesta proleterska istočno-bosanska brigada. Vojnoizdavački zavod. p. 54. Retrieved 30 September 2013. ...када се устанак на Романи]и разбуктао, непри]ател> ]е поново напустио Власеницу, у ко]у су ушли четници Дангића и Аћима). [... when rebellion on Romanija spread, the enemy retreated from Vlasenica that was entered by Chetniks of Dangic and Acim]
  • One Ustaše source emphasize that Vlasenica was actually a headquarter of Dangić (Hrvatska misao. 1961. p. 11. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Toga dana pala je u naše ruke Vlasenica, sjedište zapovjednika Dangića,). Is it true? Work of Dedijer/Miletić clarify that in Vlasenica Chetniks established 'Government of Eastern Bosnia' which president was Aćim Babić while Dangić was commander of all military units (Vladimir Dedijer; Antun Miletić (1990). Genocid nad Muslimanima, 1941-1945. Svjetlost. p. 87. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Prilikom njihovog rada u Vlasenici, Aćim Babić trgovac iz Krama kod Vlasenice, osnovao je u Vlasenici t. z. vladu istočne Bosne, kojoj je bio sam na čelu, a major Dangić bio je komandant svih četa, odreda i operirao prema Višegra- du,)[During their work in Vlasenica, Acim Babic, merchant from Kram near Vlasenica, established so called government of eastern Bosnia with himself being its head, and major Dangice was commander of all companies, units and operated toward Visegrad]
  • Vojnoistorijski institut (Belgrade, Serbia). Zbornik dokumenata i podataka o narodnooslobodilačkom ratu naroda Jugoslavija. Vojnoistorijski institut. p. 79. Retrieved 30 September 2013. од Зворника преко Власенице, Сребрнице, Соколца, па све до Стијена на Романији ослобођен је, било од стране партизанских, било четничких одреда мајора Дангића. - Even the official military institute of SFRY emphasizes that Dangic's forces participated in "liberation" of the area between Zvornik and Romanija which include Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Sokolac...[... from Zvornik over Vlasenica, Srebrnica, Sokolac and all the way until Stijene on Romanija was liberated either by Partisan or by Chetnik units of major Dangic]

Celebrated?

According to the this source

  • Branko Memedović (1987). Pola veka na srpskoj njivi, 1934-1984. Izd. SNO u Kanadi. p. 229. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Народ је почео да слави Дангића и да му нсва пссмс. Као што је ова: На сред горе Романије Четнички се барјак вије, Ај нека га нек се вије Он је дошао из Србије. Донела га Дангић рука, Команданта петог пука[People began to celebrate Dangić and to sing songs about him. Here is one of them: "Over Romanija mountain Chetnik flag is waved, let it be waved, it came from Serbia. Brought by the hand of Dangić, commander of the fifth division]

Dangic was celebrated by some people who composed songs in his honour. If that is true it might be a good idea to add this information to the article, together with information about his Karadjordje starcheckY? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

SNO Canada is the publishing house, I assume (see above)? Surely if he was awarded the Karageorge Star there would be a clearly reliable source for that, not a book published by the Serbian National Defence of Canada? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The source for Karegeorge star is communist prosecutor on the trial to Draža Mihailović. I already explained it in the section about collaboration.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It wasn't clear. However, in respect of songs, we'd want a better source in my opinion. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
This song really exist. I found it on youtube (link).--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • YOUTUBE! Of course, put it straight in the article! At the top! I've said this before, please familiarise yourself with the reliable sources policy, and stop wasting our time. I will not further address this issue until you explain the bona fides of the authors and the publishing house. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Publishing houses for Djurićs work Ilustrovana istorija četničkog pokreta are: Narodna knjiga - Beograd , Alfa - Zemun , Sezam - Beograd (link) --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:23, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Ok, and what about them? What is Djuric's expertise/qualification and what type of publishing houses are these? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Prof. Dr. Veljko Đ Đurić is historian who is director of Museum of the Genocide Victims in Belgrade. What kind of expert and what type of publishing house you think is necessary to confirm existence of the song?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
OK, so Djuric is a historian, and he is a director of a Museum created by the Serbian government during the breakup of Yugoslavia with a specific remit to focus on the suffering of Serbs? this article has some interesting things to say about the reason the Museum was created and how its narratives fit into Serbian revisionist history. Secondly, we need more context than this short snippet from the book. "Two heroes of glorious Bosnian mountains: Todorović and major Dangić" provides no context, no name of the song, no indication of who wrote it or when, when it became popular, where the information came from. This is the sort of context I am talking about. A snippet from a sentence tells us nothing, and as you are bringing the source you need to provide the context and supporting information. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Plenty of interesting bits and bobs re: Prof Dr Djuric. this, and his signature on this petition as "an admirer and friend" of Nebojsa M. Krstic, the late leader of the now banned extreme right wing organisation Obraz. Same Prof Dr Djuric? Looks like it to me. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The rhyme I presented serves to support the assertion about Dangic being glorified as hero in a song. Dangic is one of Chetnik commanders glorified as heroes in poetry about Chetniks. I think that it is almost sky blue assertion which is unrelated with any of your findings about Museum and Krstic. Is there any particular reason to insist on exceptional sources for this kind of assertion? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
All I (and WP) require is reliable sources. Not exceptional ones. Reliable ones. Something you apparently have some difficulty understanding. If you refuse to provide any context, or further information along the lines I have indicated, then I don't believe any further discussion is warranted on such a insignificant matter. I have better things to do with my time, like going through the various reliable sources in my library and expanding this article. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Imprisonment in Soviet Union

The text of the article says:

  • "Soviets captured Poland, Dangić was captured by the Red Army and extradited to Yugoslavia's new Communist authorities"

Below source:

  • Marko Milunović (1992). Od nemila do nedraga. M. Milunović. p. 401. Retrieved 30 September 2013. У затвору "Лефертовскаја тјурма" већ су се налазили: мајор Јездимир Дангић,...[In the prison Lefertovskaja Tjurma were already major Jezdimir Dangic....]

explains that he was first imprisoned in Moscow. Any thoughts?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Another unnecessarily harsh comment you write to me. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Veljko Đ Đurić (2001). Major Dangić. Pogledi. p. 60. Retrieved 30 September 2013. д о сада је објављено неколико верзија краја војводе Дан- гића. ... По једној, предали су га одмах комунистичким властима у Београду.154 По другој одвели су га у Москву и, тек касније, 1947.[There are several versions of death of voivode Dangic... According to one of them, he was extradited to communist government in Belgrade immediately. According to other, he was taken to Moscow and later, in 1947... ]
    • The same author wrote another work dedicated to Dangić (Veljko Đ Đurić (1997). Novi prilozi za biografiju vojvode Jezdimira Dangića. Nova Srbija. Retrieved 30 September 2013.). If those two works are the only works dedicated to Dangice they maybe can be added to further reading section? If there is any particular objection to its reliability, it can be added as a note.
  • Miodrag S. Ratković (1981). Моје тамновање: у совјетском затвору "Љубљанка. Izdaje Srpski Kulturni klub "Sv. Sava" u Kanadi. p. 89. Retrieved 30 September 2013. ...када је у једној борби био заробљен од стране совјетске армије, и одмах авионом пребачен у Москву.[...when he was captured by Soviet army in a battle and immediately transported to Moscow by plane.]

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure that (both) Đurić and Ratković are selpublished? Hoare in his work which is already used in this article uses Đurić as source. Maybe both should be avoided? Here is another non-selfpublished source:

  • NIN. Nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. April 1990. p. 50. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Руси су га ухватили, 1947, и предали југосло- венским властима, а исте године над њим је извршена смртна пресуда.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Russians captured him and extradited him to Yugoslav authorities to sentence him to death and kill him at the same year.]
  • Djuric is self-published. It is also not in English. We don 't use non-English sources in further reading because this is English WP. What Hoare uses is up to him, we use WP policies. I haven't looked at Ratkovic for reliability. However, you are displaying a propensity to produce Serbian sources without explaining the author or publishing house bona fides. I will ignore any further sources you produce here unless you address this issue. I will also remove all self-published and any dubious authors and/or publishers that are added. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Why did you say that Djuric is self published? I clearly presented publishing house for his work (Pogledi).
  • Please don't remove Dangic's picture PRODUCER took from Pogledi website (link) without allowing PRODUCER to present his explanation about Pogledi bona fides.
  • If the clearest version of an image of Rafael Boban, for example, happens to be on a pro-Ustase site am I endorsing that site for factual statements? Of course not. I'm honestly at a loss for words. You wish to bring a Chetnik worshiping website written by the likes of Carl Savich, Nebojsa Malic, and Srdja Trifkovic and endorsed by the Serbian National Defense Council and Ravna Gora Movement of Serbian Chetniks. It's impossible to be this naive with the language skills and years you've spent here. I'd have good faith and reasonable doubt about your motives if you were a new comer, but this is the exact same modus operandi of before where you swept in whatever possible sources you could find, insisted other users vet them for you, saw what managed to stick, and nagged incessantly on about what didn't. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 23:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Again straw man. I did not propose to use Pogledi website as source. Still, because I understand why you used it I asked Peacemaker67 not to remove your addition based on it after he announced that he will remove any addition supported by publishers like Pogledi. Will you please be so kind not to continue with writing comments about me? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:43, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you did. You cited and promoted Pogledi both as a website and as a book publisher. I will comment on inappropriate behavior when necessary. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 14:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
WP:RS "Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process." Adding the "possibility of Dangić's Moscow imprisonment" does not contradict any other source and corresponds with actual events. If such assertion would be carefully attributed I don't see any particular problem with it. Though I don't insist on it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:16, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is one English language source:

  • The South Slav Journal. Dositey Obradovich Circle. 1984. p. 104. Retrieved 2 October 2013. Dangic was eventually captured by the Germans and ended up in a Moscow prison at the war's end from where he was handed over to be hanged by the Partisans.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Borivoje M. Karapandžić (1993). Građanski rat u Srbiji: 1941-1945. Nova Iskra. pp. 250, 251. Retrieved 2 October 2013. под заповедништвом ђенерала Бор Коморовског. По крвавом угушењу овога устанка,.... - Дангић је поново пао у заробљеништво, које је ускоро било замењено бољшевичким. После страшних мучења по казаматима злогласне Лубјанке...[... Under command of Bor Komorowski. After this rebelion ended in blood Dangic was again imprisoned, this time Bolshevik. He was subjected to terrible torture in notorious Lubjanka...] - Lubyanka Building is in Moscow.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Poland

The text mentions "liberation of Poland in 1945". I propose to replace "liberation" with more neutral term.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)  Done

Addressed:Information about Dangićs escape from the prison in 1943, and participation in the Warsaw uprising added to the article.
Vladimir Dedijer; Antun Miletić (1990). Genocid nad Muslimanima, 1941-1945. Svjetlost. p. 86. Retrieved 29 September 2013. ... gde je bio do kraja 1943. Iz zarobljeništva pobegao u Poljsku, gde se (u Krakovu) predao sovjetskim jedinicama - This source says that Dangic was imprisoned until the end of 1943 when he escaped and in 1945 in Krakov surrendered himself to Red Army.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

If you can improve the article in any way using reliable sources then please do. 23 editor (talk) 17:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I might be wrong with this and would appreciate additional imput. Dangić and related topics are not subject of my interest, so I am uncertain about them and the reliability of sources. Maybe editors who are more acquainted in the Chetniks subject can help to estimate reliability of the sources in context of the assertions they support. If he was really imprisoned only until 1943 it is very important to clarify what happened to him in period 1943-1945.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
I think that the topic of this article should have been better researched before GA nomination. This source (Stanislav Krakov. General Milan Nedić. p. 145. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Са овима је он узео учешћа и у Варшавском устанку, који је избио у августу 1944 под командом пољског генерала Бор- Коморовског.) says that Dangic joined Armia Krajowa in 1943 and struggled against Nazi Germans and being one of participants in the Warsaw Uprising. Even Politikin Zabavnik has a story about Dangić's struggle against Germans in period 1943-1945 (link). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with the referencing of this article. GA criteria 3 is broad coverage, addressing the main aspects of the topic, not every single detail of the man's life. No doubt you are aware (although others may not be) that Krakov was a nephew of Milan Nedić? I would not consider him a reliable source on a Chetnik that collaborated with his uncle. Krakov was also a friend of the fascist Zbor leader and collaborator Dimitrije Ljotić, and was the propaganda chief of Zbor from 1937 onwards. He later edited the collaborationist Belgrade newspaper Obnova. Shall I go on? Dedijer and Miletić, on the other hand, could be reasonably considered to be reliable on Dangić, and should be included. Be BOLD and add the information you have sourced from them. In what alternate Wikipedia universe would Politikin Zabavnik be a reliable source about anything other than itself? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
If he really escaped the prison in 1943 and joined Armia Krajowa to fight against Nazi Germans for next two years, even participating in the Warsaw Uprising, such information can be hardly referred to as "every single detail of the man's life". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
True, but of course we would first have to have a reliable source for it, not Nedic's nephew or a comic. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
There are three important assertions about Poland here:
  • escape from the prison in 1943
  • joining Armia Krajowa to struggle against Nazi Germans
  • participation in the Warsaw uprising
You probably overlooked that I presented Dedijer/Miletić as source for the first assertion. They are already used in the article so I guess you will not attempt to proclaim their unreliability.
Krakov's lack of neutrality is not same as lack of reliability. If Krakov, as nephew of Milan Nedić and Dangić's 'fellow Nazi collaborator', says that Dangic fought against Nazi Germans in Poland then it is likely to be true. Don't you agree? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:24, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Here are some additional sources:
  • NIN: nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. 1995. p. 20. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Напослетку, „Политика" је и то објавила, да је мајор Дангић, побегав- ши из Офлага у Нирнбергу, учество- вао у варшавском устанку, у августу 1944, на страни Бора Комаровског.
  • Biljana J. Djelevich; Jaksa V. Djelevich (1993). Prvi Dražin ađutant Jakša V. Đelević: doprinos istoriji Ravnogorskog pokreta. Izd. pisca. p. 166. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Мајор Јездимир Дангић је исто тако побегао из немачког заробљеништва, повезао се са Армијом Крајова и суделовао у Варшавском устанку.
  • Tomislav Krsmanović (2003). Drinski rašomon: dnevnik. Sfairos. p. 47. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Дангић бежи у Пољску и придружује се јединицама Боре Комаровског и тако учествује у ослобоћењу Варшаве 1944. године.
  • Mladen Colić (1973). Takozvana Nezavisna Država Hrvatska 1941. Delta-pres. p. 335. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Iz logora je uspjeo pobjeći i pridružio se Varšavskom ustanku 1944. godine.
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Like I said already (I didn't overlook it, I addressed it in my comment), I have no problem with the first point, so I've encouraged you to go right ahead and edit the article and cite it from the source you have indicated. I'm not going to guess about Krakov's motives, he is affiliated with Nedic and Ljotic, and not a third party, so an uncorroborated claim by him that Dangić did something that runs against his well-documented collaboration is an extraordinary claim in my book. Of course, if a reliable third party source for the second two points is verified, I would encourage that the information to be added. I'll have a look at the ones you've produced, as I am sure the other involved editors will. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
forget Djelevich and Djelevich, which looks to be self-published. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I have no view about Colic, but he is already used in the article, so it would seem that other editors consider him a RS. Thus, including any information from his book would be fine. Why don't you go right ahead and add it? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I will do it as soon as I study this period a little more. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Colic doesn't say he joined the Armija, just the uprising, I have amended the article (and the "solved" template) to reflect this. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 23:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

AD please abstain from making assumptions and claims that the sources do not make. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 17:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
This edit of mine (reverted by PRODUCER) does not mention Armia Krajowa. Colic confirms that Dangic joined rebelion in Warsaw. What is problem with it? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
These edits [1][2] are not explicitly supported by Colic. You are making assumptions. I've added "August - October 1944", the span of the uprising, for now. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 18:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
My addition about Dagnic's allegiance to Polish resistance was explicitly supported by Colic. That is why you had to restore it after I insisted on it. Your insisting on the monthly time-span (which does not exist at three other allegiances) could not justify its removal. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
No it wasn't. First you had 1943-1945 for Armia Krajowa then 1944 for general resistance. Both were misleading and neither was explicitly sourced so it warranted removal. According to Colic we're discussing a two month allegiance here and that's assuming he joined the uprising from the get-go. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 20:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Straw man fallacy. I already clarified (diff) that I refer to edit which "does not mention Armia Krajowa" but to my addition about Dagnic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff) which is explicitly supported by Colic. Not specifying the monthly time span (which is consistent to three other allegiances of Dangic) can not serve as an excuse to remove referenced assertion from the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
It wouldn't have mattered if you put 1943-1945 for general resistance it still would have been incorrect. You first added he joined Armia Krajowa, served from '43 until '45, and engaged in Operation Tempest citing the same source which tells me how "precise" you intend to be with sources. Now I don't know what your definition of "explicit" is when even August – October 1944 is speculation let alone the year of 1944 and if it's acceptable to use months for the Nazi German allegiance then using it for something lasting two months max is undoubtedly even more acceptable. You've been disruptive in the nominated article of another Chatnik commander and without good results so I recommend you actually stick to what the sources say. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 22:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
I understand that you believe that time span you added (August – October) is speculation. I also understand that you object to Armia Krajowa assertion and 43-45 time span. Still, that does not justify your removal of my later addition about Dagnic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff). I propose you to revert yourself and remove (August – October) monthly time span restoring my version with only 1944.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
I also object to the Armija assertion, because it completely lacks any reliable source whatsoever. The only reliable source we have (Colic) just says he participated in the uprising, and the months of the uprising were Aug-Oct. Quite a reasonable position IMO. Antidiskriminator, you made this edit, which indicated that Dangic had an allegiance to the Polish Underground State from 1943 to 1945. Colic, the only reliable source in this matter, merely says (according to Google Translate) "Managed to escape from the camp and joined the Warsaw Uprising in 1944". PRODUCER has merely applied what Colic actually says to the infobox. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:32, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Again, this discussion is not about my edit which mentions Armia Krajowa but about my addition of Dangic's 1944 allegiance to Polish resistance (diff, diff).
  • Neither you Peacemaker67 nor PRODUCER presented any valid argument to justify PRODUCER's reverts (diff, diff) of my above two edits. Not specifying the monthly time span (which is consistent to three other allegiances of Dangic) can not serve as an excuse to remove referenced assertion from the article. As far as I am concerned this discussion is over. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, I must have missed your comment acknowledging that you were wrong about the source saying he was with the Armija Krajowa. The accepted source says he joined the Warsaw Uprising, not that he joined the Polish resistance. If you have a reliable source that says he joined the Polish resistance, feel free to bring it here with the stipulations about context, translation, author and publisher. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

When did Dangic become a Major?

The article sources him to the rank of cavalry sub-lieutenant, but there is no mention of Major (several steps up from there). We know he made it to Major, as almost all sources refer to him as such, but when? Anyone have a source for it? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Jezdimir Dangić/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tomobe03 (talk · contribs) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll review this nomination shortly.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

  • Checklinks reports no broken external links (no action required)
  • Copyvio Detector reports no issues with the article (no action required)
  • There are a couple of disambiguation links in the article: Brčko and Visoko. Please point them to required destinations.

Done.

  • There are several duplicate links in the article. Please remove those per WP:OVERLINK. Those are: Belgrade, Vlasenica, Goražde, Romanija, Pero Đukanović (redlink), Sarajevo, Zvornik, Kladanj, Tuzla, and Ustaše militia.

Fixed.

  • There is a [when?] cleanup tag in the article - please address that one as appropriate.

Addressed.

  • Images:
    • Infobox image is non-free but has NF-rationale (no action required)
    • Map Axis occupation of Yugoslavia 1941-43.png is AFAIK correct, but has no reference besides another work at the commons which lists a substantial list of works as sources. While some of the works cited there are reliable others are not. I do not doubt for a second that the map is correct, but I'd strongly recommend you to add one reliable source containing this map to file description of this particular map. The same source could be added to Independent State Of Croatia 1941 (East) Locator Map.png
    • Gorazde.jpg image probably requires Freedom of panorama licence at the commons. Since Bosnia and Herzegovina allows FOP for non-commercial use such as wiki, this is no dealbreaker here, but I urge you to consider adding an appropriate template at the Commons - just to make sure that the image is not deleted from the Commons and the article, if nothing else.
    • Warsaw image is properly licenced
    • All the images have appropriate captions
  • Sourcing and referencing appears to be fine
    • I believe Dizdar & Sobolevski book is in Croatian (SC appears to be anachronistically applied for a book published in Zagreb in 1999), but GAR is not about content, therefore I will leave this up to you.
  • I believe MOS:HYPHEN does not permit hyphenation of "one-hundred"

Removed.

  • Not sure on this one, but shouldn't Over the period 13–23 October 1941... be "Over the period of 13–23 October 1941..."?

Fixed.

  • In Dangić is said to have held a "fierce hatred" of Muslims, allegedly saying that he wished to "kill them all," and that he had an "absolute willingness" to collaborate with the Germans., is there really need for the quotation marks? Are those direct quotations, and if so who did say that? If not, the quotation marks lead to a conclusion that the qualifications were inaccurate as described in WP:SCAREQUOTES.

Since Hoare uses the word "allegedly" as to whether Dangić said these things or not (and since Hoare himself uses quotation marks when referring to the statement) I don't think quotation mark use is problematic.

  • Ditto for The massacres were "above all an expression of the genocidal policy and ideology of the Chetnik movement."
  • In ...Vukmanović raised Draža Mihailović's attack on Tito's headquarters at Užice and the Chetnik's failure to fight the occupiers., I assume the occupiers are Axis forces. Or is that meant to refer to some specific group (Germans, Italians etc)?

Added "Axis forces"

  • Shouldn't ...14-article resolution was created... be "...14-article resolution was adopted (or drafted)..."? When I read "created" I don't really know if it was adopted or written and proposed.

Fixed.

Done.

  • Could you please clarify, at least here, what is meant by ...having the ability to legalize and supply Chetnik forces. - the "legalize" bit of course. I have no idea what is meant by that.
  • I trust an endash is needed in "German-Muslim"

Done.

  • I think the "Soviets" should wikilink to something, perhaps "Soviet Union".

Done.

  • When the article says ...executed by shooting..., do you refer to execution by firing squad or was he shot in some other manner, i.e. not by a firing squad?

Clarified.

Great work! The article covers a really interesting topic in a very informative way. There's quite little to cover to meet all GACR.--Tomobe03 (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Tom. Sorry for the unreasonably long delay. I've addressed most of your comments and will get to the ones regarding images tommorow. 23 editor (talk) 03:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
No problem. Could you just explain the "legalize" pointed out above?--Tomobe03 (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The "legalize" bit has to do with the fact that the Chetniks were declared illegal by the Italian and German authorities in the NDH. However, some Chetnik units were "legalized" by the two parties due to the fact that they were involved in fighting the Communists rather than the Germans and Italians. How would you suggest I explain this in the article? 23 editor (talk) 22:08, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
How about "...and having the ability to supply Chetnik forces, no longer considered illegal by the Germans." or something along those lines. I am acquainted with the subject in broad terms, but I had no clue what "legalize" meant. I think this sums up the Germans thought them illegal and this changed at that specific point in time.--Tomobe03 (talk) 01:26, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh one more thing. There is a passage:

In order to enlist further Chetnik aid and to intensify the Chetnik–Partisan split, Dangić was invited to Belgrade in late January by Nedić and General der Artillerie (lieutenant general) Paul Bader. There, meetings were held from 30 January to 2 February 1942.[44] Present were Bader, Professor Josif Matl, and Colonel Erich Kewisch for the Germans, Dangić and Pero Đukanović for the Chetniks, and Nedić and Aćimović for the Serbian puppet government.[65] Eventually, the two reached an agreement.

I'm looking at "the two reached an agreement" and can't stop thinking there were three parties in the negotiations and seven people were talking. I assume that "the two" means Dangić and an unspecified German (presumably Bader), but this sure reads odd. Could you rephrase that last sentence?--Tomobe03 (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

No problem, how does this look like? 23 editor (talk) 02:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Excellent.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Passed now. I'd recommend sorting out the reference language issues too, but since that's not a part of GACR, I'm closing this. Cheers--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Various

  • I note PRODUCER has added information to the article about where he worked as a gendarme, which includes Tuzla. The source you provided doesn't say how big the gendarmerie were in Tuzla at the time does it? Because if he was the commander of a company that wouldn't make him the commander of the gendarmerie in Tuzla if there was more than one company of gendarmes in Tuzla at the time in question. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:03, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Addressed:Information about Drinjača agreement added to the article
  • I found a couple of SFRY sources (not always reliable when it comes to Chetniks) which say that Partisans made agreement with Dangic and his Chetniks in Drinjača on 1 October 1941:
    • Branko Latas; Milovan Dželebdžić (1979). Četnički pokret Draže Mihailovića 1941-1945. Beogradski izdavačko-grafički zavod. p. 54. Retrieved 30 September 2013. партизанско-четничког спорз- зума у Дрињачи од 1. октобра 1941,). [partisan-Chetnik agreement in Drinjaca on 1 October 1941]
    • (Branislav Đurđev; Zdravko Antonić; Enver Redžić (1973). 1941. [i.e. Hiljadu devetsto četrdeset i prva] u historijinaroda Bosne i Hercegovine: Naučni skup, održan u Drvaru od 7. do 9. oktobra 1971. godine. "Veselin Masleša". p. 208. Retrieved 30 September 2013. ..odluka o konferenciji... Dangić u Rogatici javno govorio da je saradnja između partizana i četnika prekinuta "zato što partizani ne poštuju sporazum zaključen u Drinjači" {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)). This source, coauthored by Redžić who is already used in the article, asserts that Vlasenica conference was proposed by partisans because Dangić complained that they do not respect their agreement reached in Drinjača.[... decision on conference... Dangic in Rogatica publicly spoke that cooperation between Partisans and Chetniks is over "because Partisans do not respect agreement reached in Drinjaca"]
    • Mladen Colić (1973). Takozvana Nezavisna Država Hrvatska 1941. Delta-pres. p. 335. Retrieved 30 September 2013. Četničko rukovodstvo je to na riječima prihvatilo, pa je 1. oktobra u Drinjači potpisan sporazum o suradnji izmedju partizana i...[Chetnik leadership declarative accepted this, and on 1 October in Drinjaca the agreement on cooperation between Partisans and... ] --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Antun Miletić (1976). Zbornik dokumenata i podataka o narodnooslobodilačkom ratu naroda Jugoslavije: Dokumenti Nemačkog Rajha 1942. Vojnoistorijski Institut. p. 112. U Drinjači je 1. oktobra 1941. potpisan sporazum o saradnji partizana i četnika u istočnoj Bosni. Tada je formiran zajednički Operativni štab za rukovođenje operacijama i izdat zajednički proglas narodu s pozivom u borbu protiv okupatora.[In Drinjaca on 1 October 1941 was signed agreement between Partisans and Chetniks of Eastern Bosnia. Joint Operational headquarter was then established to command the operations and issued joint proclamation to people with invitation to struggle against occupying forces.] - even official SFRY military institute confirms this agreement.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • There was the Drinjača declaration on 1 October, followed by the Milici agreement (on the details of the joint command) on 6 October. Both are covered in detail in Hoare, and need to be included, as Dangic was influential with both. The joint command only lasted until 16 November. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:39, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Timeline of Dangic-Partisan cooperation. The below source says that first contacts between Partisans and Dangic were obtained in the first half of September 1941. Members of the Partisan command of Sarajevo region met with Dangic on Romanija and reported to their supreme command about Dangic being their potential ally. On 20 September Supreme Partisan command issued instructions for cooperation with Chetniks' detachments which was the basis for establishment of the cooperation between Partisans and Dangic.
  • Voivode title. There is an ocean of sources which refer to Dangić as voivode. Still, I could not find any reliable source for this title being officially awarded to Dangic. Therefore it might be a good idea to clarify that Dangic was one of self-proclaimed Chetnik voivode as the following SFRY source says (Vojnoistorijski institut (Belgrade, Serbia) (1952). Zbornik dokumenata i podataka o narodnooslobodilačkom ratu naroda Jugoslavija. Vojnoistorijski institut. p. 184. Retrieved 1 October 2013. Ти шпијуни су четнички официри и самозване војводе Дангић, Тодоровић, Јеф- тић, Михаиловић,)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[Those spies are Chetnik officers and self-declared voivode Dangice, Todorovic, Jeftic, Mihailovic...]
Addressed:Busic removed as a revisionist/unreliable
The number of Muslims killed used in the trial charges can be sourced from the trial documents. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I looked trough DM indictment but it does not present number of Dangic's civilian victims. It only says (p 28, Helsinki) that Chetniks killed over 2,000 muslims in December-January 1941 in Foca, Gorazde and Cajnice but do not accuse Dangic for that. Do you have approach to the trial document you mentioned?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Good point on Bušić. Can you find another source mentioning Colaković and the number of Muslim deaths Dangić was responsible for? Good work digging up sources so far. 23 editor (talk) 23:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try to find it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Here are some sources about number of Muslim victims of Dangic I managed to find so far:
    • Stevo Popović (1951). Majevički partizani. Svjetlost. p. 207. Дангићеви четници већ су попалили чи- тава муслиманска села око Рогатице, поклали су хиљаде ни кривих ни дужних муслимана у Фочи и Горажду.[Dangic's Chetniks already burned Muslim villages around Rogatica, slaughtered thousands innocent Muslims in Foca and Gorazde] - SFRY source but I guess it can be used with careful attribution
    • Miloš Hamović (1994). Izbjeglištvo u Bosni i Hercegovini: 1941-1945. Filip Višnjić. p. 83. Retrieved 2 October 2013. Према неким подацима, четници су на подручју Фоча - Горажде - Чајниче од октобра 1941 па до 20 јануара 1942 ликвидирали 5 до 6000 муслимана, што је вјероватно предимензионирано - This source says that, [according to some overestimations, in period October 1941 — 20 January 1942 Chetniks killed between 5,000 and 6,000 Muslims in the region of Foca - Gorazde - Cajnice.]--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Branko Memedović (1987). Pola veka na srpskoj njivi, 1934-1984. Izd. SNO u Kanadi. p. 228. Retrieved 29 September 2013. Дангић је рођен у Подрињу, са Босанске стране, недалеко од Зворника. Гимназију учио у Тузли и као ђак припадао организацији Младе Босне, због чега је хапшен и затваран, пред Први светски рат, и био суђен и осуђиван... - this source also presents the information that he completed a high-school in Tuzla.[Dangic was born in Podrinje, on Bosnian side, near Zvornik. He attended high-school in Tuzla and as its student was member of Young Bosnia, for which he was arrested and imprisoned, before WWI, and trialed and sentenced...]
  • According to some sources he even wrote two books about his imprisonment in Tuzla ("Naše Tamnovanje", Tuzla 1938 and "Glad i tamnica", Novi Sad, 1940). He wrote the first book under alias Miroljub Bogic (Miroljub BOGIĆ (1938). Наше Тамновање. (Предговор: Божидар М. Томић.) [With Plates.].) -
    • Vladimir Ćorović; Vojislav Maksimović (1996). Crna knjiga: patnje Srba Bosne i Hercegovine za vreme Svetskog Rata 1914-1918. Udruženje ratnih dobrovoljaca 1912 - 1918. godine, njihovih potomaka i poštova. p. Introduction. Retrieved 2 October 2013. ... Јездимира Дангића (Наше тамновање, Тузла, 1938. и Глад и тамница, Нови Сад, 1940). И они су били страдалници у аустроугарским затворима, па су такође забиљежили аутентичне догађаје и саопштили своја виђења и свједочења.[... of Jezdimir Dangić (Our imprisonment, Tuzla, 1938 and Hunger and prison, Novi Sad, 1940). They too suffered in Austria-Hungary's prisons and recorded authentic testimony and what they saw.]
    • Književnost. Prosveta. 1990. ...поједина сећања српских писаца остварена су превасходно као романескне творевине; видети, на пример, књиге Јездимира Дангића Наше тамновање, објављену под псеудонимом Мирољуб Богић, и Глад. и. тамница. Нови. Сад,. 1940. Предговор приповеткама Наше тамновање написао је приповедачев пријатељ, члан националног ћачког удружења, осућен као и он, Божидар М. Томшћ.[...some memories of Serbian writers are written as novels, i.e. works of Jezdimir Dangic "Our Imprisonment", published under alias Miroljub Bogić, and Hunger and Prison, Novi Sad, 1940. Introduction to to short-stories in "Hunger and Prison" is written by author's friend, member of students society who was, together with author, sentenced, Bozidar M. Tomsic.]--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • According to this source Dangic was imprisoned by Germans twice, in April 1942 and after the collapse of the Warsaw uprising (NIN: nedeljne informativne novine. Politika. 1995. p. 20. Retrieved 1 October 2013. Ухваћен, када су Немци овладали Вар- шавом,)[Caught when Germans took Warsaw,]. This means he was imprisoned by monarchists, fascists and communists five times for 7 years, five countries and three different ideologies:
    • June 1914 for 2,5 years by Austria-Hungary, as member of pro-Yugoslav Young Bosnia opposed to Austrian imperialism
    • April 1942 for 1,5 years by Germans, as member of pro-Serbian Chetniks and opposed to NDH (puppet state of Nazi Germany)
    • October 1944 for 1 year by Germans, as member of pro-Polish resistance and opposed to Nazi Germans
    • 1945 for 2 years by Soviets, as former member of pro-capitalist Chetniks and Polish resistance opposed to communism
    • 1947 by SFRY, for pro-German collaboration - and hanged--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Tomasevich recommends (p. 208) work of Krakov as text which presents pro-Nedic POV on Dangic (Stanislav Krakov. General Milan Nedić. Retrieved 30 September 2013.). It might be a good idea to add it to further reading section with this note.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah, no. Per my comment when you have raised Krakov previously, Krakov is not in English (which is preferred), and he is unreliable because he was published by Iskra in Munich. Iskra was a Serb emigre newspaper, that could hardly be considered a reliable publishing house . Krakov was also Nedic's nephew, a Zbor propagandist etc, and in my view that also makes him extremely dubious as a source. Tomasevich does not recommend him, he points readers to his book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that is why Tomasevich emphasized that this work contains pro-Nedic view. But he still pointed readers to this book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities. It would be useful for readers who would like to see such view. That is exactly why I proposed to add him with a note which could be "pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities". Is there any particular reason not to follow Tomasevich's example and not to present it? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the reason is, it's not reliable. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:42, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Are you sure? Reliability≠neutrality. Per WP:BIASED guideline "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective.... " --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:23, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Absolutely certain. Neither he nor his publisher are reliable on this topic, neutrality doesn't even come into it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
If Tomasevich "points readers to his book if they want a pro-Nedic POV on Dangic's activities" then I think this work could be considered as reliable for assertions which present this view. After I learn more about the subject of this article I will go trough its text to check if this view is given due weight. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
  • The projected agreement between Dangic and Germans worried Ustaše. The current text of the article presents the following reasons:
    • it would harm the NDH's position,
    • expand the suffering of Muslims in east Bosnia which outnumbered the Serbs, and
    • damage German-Muslim world relations
Tomasevich (p. 208) explains that the Croatian Ustashe were "very annoyed and extremely worried" because they saw this Dangic/Axis affair as "a conspiracy against the Croatian state". The current text of the article could mislead readers to believe that position of Ustaše was based on some unclear position of their state, humanitarianism and Islamophilia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • The current text of the article emphasized (more than once) "kill them all" policy of Dangic and Chetniks toward Muslims. This contradicts to one SFRY source (published by state military institute) which says that Chetniks in Eastern Bosnia attempted to recruit Muslims into separate Muslim Chetnik units and that Partisans in January 1942 issued proclamation to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia because of this practice. (Vojnoistorijski institut (Belgrade, Serbia) (1952). Zbornik Dokumenta. p. 94. Retrieved 2 October 2013. ПРОГЛАС МУСЛИМАНА БОРАЦА НОП И ДВ ЈУГОСЛАВИЈЕ ОД ЈАНУАРА 1942 ГОД МУСЛИМАНИМА ИСТОЧНЕ БОСНЕ ПОВОДОМ ПОКУШАЈА ЧЕТНИКА ДА СТВОРЕ МУСЛИМАНСКЕ ЧЕТНИЧКЕ ФОРМАЦИЈЕ)[Proclamation of Muslim fighters of NOP and DV Yugoslavia on January 1942 to Muslims from Eastern Bosnia regarding attempts of Chetniks to create Muslim Chetniks units]--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
  • It does nothing of the sort. Zbornik is, to my understanding, a collection of primary documents. The use of primary documents is subject to WP:PRIMARY.
Addressed:issues about the lead summarising Dangic's membership of Young Bosnia and his imprisonment; and inaccurate usage of Mirkovic to support figure of 1,370 Muslims killed in Gorazde under Dangic
  • "Chetniks under Dangić's command massacred 1,370 Bosnian Muslims in the town of Goražde." - This sentence is not directly supported by the source which discuss number of Muslims killed during WWII and explains that during two major massacres of Muslims in parish Goražde 1,370 people were killed. I think that the first major massacre probably occurred during Dangic's rule, but the second major massacre (with allegedly 500 victims according to source used in this article) this source refers to probably occurred in 1943, when Dangic was in Poland and could not command the massacre.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:45, 4 October 2013 (UTC)checkY
  • That is correct, I checked Locke and Littel (eds) and the passage did not lay it at Dangic's feet or state when massacred Muslims were killed in Gorazde. I have added better information from Hoare and contrasted it with slightly differing information from Dulic. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Relatively untouched by genocide

  • "In east Bosnia the largest Chetnik massacres took place despite the area being relatively untouched by the Ustaše genocide until spring of 1942." -

@PRODUCER, I sincerely apologize if I did not understand this sentence properly but, since you added this sentence (diff), will you please be so kind to clarify what does it mean "relatively untouched by genocide" and present the full quotation from the source?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

  • "Relatively untouched" is lifted verbatim. The Ustaše genocide occurred primarily in central Croatia and Bosanska Krajina. Hoare notes the massacres of Bosniaks were not revenge, but "an expression of the genocidal policy and ideology of the Chetnik movement". --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 23:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
@Peacemaker67: Please be so kind not to violate wikipedia rules and collapse active discussion on other editor's objections.
I object to the above mentioned sentence because it is not directly supported by the source, incorrect, illogical and could mislead the readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Who says it is incorrect? You? What reliable source do you have for that statement? As far as the collapsing boxes are concerned, if you can use them, so can I. Talk about living in glasshouses. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Within reasonable period of time I will present sources which contradict the assertion about east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942.
  • Go right ahead. Just make sure they are reliable sources with translations in full context, and that you provide explanations of who the author and publishing house are and their bona fides. Especially when the source you are challenging is written by a Doctor of History who specialises in the former Yugoslavia, is widely cited by other historians of the former Yugoslavia, and whose book was published by Oxford University Press. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify: I presented more than one (I believe) valid reason for my objection (it is not directly supported by the source, incorrect, illogical and could mislead the readers):
    1. I don't think PRODUCER (yet) presented a quote which directly supports "relatively untouched by genocide" assertion. I did not challenge the source because I did not even see the quote. What I am uncertain about (and I emphasize that I sincerely apologize if I am wrong) is not the source. Its how PRODUCER interpreted the source to write this sentence. That is why I politely requested a quote but he has not (yet) provided it. checkY
    2. This assertion is incorrect (I will present sources to prove it)
    3. PRODUCER did not clarify what does being "relatively untouched by genocide" exactly means
    4. this assertion could mislead readers about the real nature of Ustasha regime--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • This information is from a detailed explanation by Hoare of the creation of the "Provisional Administration for East Bosnia" that resulted from discussions Todorovic had with the Italians in November 1941. The Italians handed over Visegrad, Gorazde and Foca and the surrounding areas to Todorovic, after they forced the NDH troops to withdraw. Here is the quote in context:

The establishment of the Chetnik puppet administration proceeded in a manner that paralleled the establishment of the NDH only half a year earlier: the Chetniks carried out systematic massacres and plunder of the Mulsim population of east Bosnia much as the Ustashas to the west had carried out massacres of the Serbs. These Chetnik massacres were not simply an expression of Serb revenge for Ustasha crimes, for whereas the largest Ustasha massacres occurred in Bosanska Krajina, and especially in those areas of Croatia with large numbers of Serbs (Banija, Kordun, Lika, northern Dalmatia), the Chetnik movement in those areas was comparatively weak; the largest Chetnik massacres took place in east Bosnia, which had been relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until the spring of 1942.

  • Thank you Peacemaker67 replying to my question. I don't understand why PRODUCER did not reply to it although the source uses the same wording. I had a feeling that Hoare did use the same words, but I just wanted to be sure. Relatively untouched by genocide... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I again sincerely apologize if I don't understand English well, but I simply can not understand how something can be "relatively untouched by genocide". Ustase either carried out their genocidal policy in east Bosnia or not. Do you have any other source which supports the assertion that this part of NDH was "relatively" exempt from genocide?
  • I found a text written by Hoare which might bring more light to this unclear assertion: "For one thing, the weight of Ustasha genocide occurred in Croatia proper and in West Bosnia, whereas the largest Chetnik massacres occurred in East Bosnia and the Sanjak region - the latter was not even under Ustasha rule or touched by the Ustasha genocide." - the latter means Sanjak region (link).
There is an ocean of sources which emphasize that Ustase commited terrible atrocities against Serbs in east as soon as they established their rule in east Bosnia which they considered of vital importance for their genocidal Greater Croatia project (because there was mythic Drina border toward Serbs ("међа на Дрини")). I think it is obvious that Hoare's assertion is generalization of his findings about Sanjak which was considered as part of Bosnia until the end of 20th century. Don't you agree?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Another loaded and almost rhetorical question. And another "ocean of sources"! None of which (of course) has actually been produced, in context, translated with information about author and publishing house. You can "think something is obvious" as much as you like, but it's OR unless Hoare explicitly says he is including the Sanjak. He doesn't, and in fact he mentions the Sanjak several times in the book, so it would be strange indeed if he meant to include it in this context, but didn't. What he does say is that east Bosnia was relatively untouched by the Ustasha genocide until July 1942. Which is what goes in the article. Desperate ploy thwarted. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I already explained that "Within reasonable period of time I will present sources which contradict the assertion about east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" so there was no reason for another unnecessarily harsh comment.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:16, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Below is sourced text which explains that "east Bosnia being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942" assertion is not only illogical but also incorrect and misleading:

Eastern Bosnia was of particular importance for NDH and Ustashe because of Drina which they propagated as frontier of their worlds toward another world. They saw Drina as China wall-alike border which separates Croats from Serbia forever. Serbs who lived in region of east Bosnia (near Drina) were subjected to Ustashe terror just like in other parts of NDH. Before uprising in the east Bosnia, mass atrocities (including those in Drinjača, Rašića Gaj, Skelani...) already committed by Ustashe significantly contributed to the success of the uprising in east Bosnia.

Sources:
  • General remarks
    • Nisim Albahari; Istorijski arhiv Sarajevo (1977). Sarajevo u revoluciji: Komunistička partija Jugoslavije u pripremama i organizaciji ustanka. Istorijski arhiv. p. 264. Za ustaše je istočna Bosna bila od posebnog političkog značaja, jer je tu »Drina granica dvaju svjetova«[For Ustashe eastern Bosnia was or particular importance because it was "Drina, border of two worlds"]
    • Ibrahim Tepić (1998). Bosna i Hercegovina od najstarijih vremena do kraja Drugog svjetskog rata. Bosanski kulturni centar. p. 344. Pavelić je zakonskom odredbom. 7. juna 1941, odredio istočnu granicu NDH na Drini ... Ustaška propaganda tih dana je nazivala istočnu granicu "međom na Drini" i "kineskim zidom" koji će Hrvate "za sve vijekove djeliti od Srba"[Pavelic made a law on 7 June 1941 to determine eastern frontier of NDH on Drina... Ustasha propaganda of those days referred to eastern frontier as "Drina frontier" and "China wall" which will separate Croats from Serbs forever]
    • Зборник за историју Босне и Херцеговине. Академија. 1995. p. 254. Томе је, свакако, доприносила и чињеница што су усташе у власеничко-сребреничко-зворничком крају већ биле извршиле масовне злочине над виђеним Србима.[(explanation that to the sucess of the uprising in Bosnia in 1941)... contributed a fact that Ustasha already committed mass atrocities against notable Serbs in region of Vlasenica - Srebrenica - Zvornik] Work published by Bosnian Academy in 1995 (unlikely being pro-Serb)
    • Adil Zulfikarpašić (1971). Bosanski pogledi, 1960-1967: izbor članaka : o 50-godišnjici Adila Zulfikarpašića. Smail Balič. p. 28. Ustaška vlast je postavljena do Drine odmah u aprilu 1941 g. Stvoreni su ustaški logori i logornici, oružane postaje itd. Ti krajevi su bili izloženi ustaškom teroru jednako kao i ostali.[Ustashe set up their rule near Drina in April 1941. ... Those regions were subjected to Ustase terror just like other regions.]
  • Drinjača - July-August 1941
    • Dinko Davidov; Lj Ranković (1986). Ogrešenja. Izd. Glas Crkve. p. 68. Усташе су доводиле у Дри- њачу поједине Србе и ту их над једним гвозденим петролејским бу- ретом клали, хватајући им крв и одсецајући поједине делове тела ... Црква у Дрињачи претворена је у нужник. Усташе су одсецале полне органе мушке деце, а женске силовали. Две девојке су силоване не смену док нису умрле.[Detals of massacre which is shortly that Ustasha brought Serbs to Drinjaca to slaughter them and capture their blood into a barrel, plus some details of massacre of children.]
    • Blic, Interview of Rade Jokić with Neđo Lukić who explained that Ustaše had intention to send to Pavelic a barrel full of blood of Serbs they slaughtered. He managed to escape, but many of Serbs were slaughtered and buried without heads. (link)
    • Srebrenica: a ‘safe’ area Appendix IV History and Reminders in East Bosnia present some claims that more than a hundred Serbs were killed in Drinjaèe by 12 August 1941 and that the basket full of eyes found by Italian war journalist, Curzio Malaparte, at Ante Pavelic’s desk during a late-summer visit to Zagreb in 1941 was from Serbs killed in Drinjaèa. This basket was an episode which he described in his autobiographical war novel Kaputt)
  • Rašića Gaj - July 1941
    • Gojo Riste Dakina (1994). Genocide Over the Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia: Be Catholic Or Die. Institute of Contemporary History. p. 284. Retrieved 2 October 2013. ...свештеник, парох у Милићима....Ноћу 26/27. јуна усташе су га одвеле у групи ухап- шених Срба и све убили у Рашића гају
    • Danilo Knežević (1961). Četrdeset godina: 1917-1929. Kultura. p. 60. Retrieved 2 October 2013. Tako je, na primjer, u mjesecu julu u nekim jarugama kod Rasica Gaja (nedlaleko od Vlasenice) na svirep nacin poklano oko 80 ljudi.[In example, in July near Rasica Gaj (near Vlasenica) 80 people were slaughtered.]
  • Skelani (after 22 June 1941)
  • This is only a short text and short list of sources I managed to prepare until now. I had intention to prepare longer text and list of sources but I made decision to refrain from further editing of this article and its talk page, for now.
  • I am concerned about using works of Hoare so often in this article, taking in consideration that his work contains such illogical and incorrect assertion like this about east Bosnia being being (relatively) untouched by Ustashe genocide before Spring 1942.
  • I wish all the best to all editors of this article. I am glad that I significantly contributed to its quality and hope that its remaining issues will be resolved without my assistance. But if anybody feels that I could help in future just let me know and I will reconsider my decision to withdraw from the editing of this article. Cheers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:45, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments

If you feel my language is direct, I am sure that is just a cross-cultural thing. No doubt some would find your talk page behaviour frustrating, but I actually find it mildly entertaining. On balance though, I consider your involvement in articles I have edited as a negative, mainly due to the inordinate amount of time wasted explaining the application of WP policies and researching dubious authors and publishing houses, despite the fact you have been on WP longer than I.

This behaviour is exemplified by descending on an article when it is nominated for review, raising huge swathes of text on the talk page, with self-commissioned ticks and collapse boxes that no-one else is permitted to touch until you decide the matter has been addressed to your satisfaction (regardless of any consensus to the contrary), using snippets of phrases from primary sources, self-published sources, dubious or demonstrably biased or non-academic ones, with no context, no discussion of who the author is and what their academic credentials are, the bona fides of the publishing house etc. This information then has to be found by other interested editors, or sometimes you provide it when queried. This repeated and demonstrated behaviour also incorporates a demonstrated lack of editing in article space even on the odd occasion that the point is valid and a reliable, in-context source has been brought for it, and no-one has an objection to it being added. It is often characterised by a focus on incredibly unimportant things, like a song or the name of someone's brother, and claims that these additions (assuming a reliable source can be eventually found for them) are a significant improvement to the article in question. Sometimes this behaviour unearths a useful point, but even they are rarely raised without an observation of how it is "surprising XXXX was overlooked" or words to that effect. Sensitive souls might feel you were being sarcastic or questioning their motivation.

I don't share your view (stated above) on how much of a contribution you make to articles through this behaviour, my impression (based on significant interaction over time) is that this behaviour is probably aimed at trying to get material that doesn't suit your particular point of view removed, and vice versa. The Pavle Djurisic article, and the fact that you are topic banned from it, is a case in point, and this one (another Chetnik leader) is shaping up in a very similar way. I recommend you examine your behaviour and try to make one point at a time, properly, in context, using reliable sources whose bona fides withstand examination, rather than this shotgun approach. PRODUCER has said as much above, and we both have plenty of interaction with you we can point to in order to demonstrate this pattern of behaviour occurs. I might add that these observations are not about you as a person, as I do not know you and I am sure you would be very interesting to have a chat with, they are observations about your behaviour on talk pages on WP. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

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