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Contested deletion

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This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... ( The data available on Wikipedia is sparse at best when it comes to informing people the facts about the American Quarter Horse Association, its members, its culture which is ingrained in its society and some of the recorded history on who the players were and what actually did they achieve. The Jack Brizendine article talks about the unusually high numbers of Points and wins showing horses. Jack Brizendine being a 47 year Trainer of American Quarter Horses with over 7k show wins and 29 World Championship Wins is the most extraordinary and most winningest record ever. To leave out Jack Brizendine would be like creating a Wikipedia Article about the NFL and leaving out the Oakland Raiders. The claims are properly sourced. We need to realize that AQHA did not even have a website until 2-3 years ago so their data capabilities are in need of some help from us the Wikipedia Community. This article will not be deleted. ) --JacksLondon (talk) 16:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... I'm not expert on horses or horse publications, but this appears to meet WP:GNG because of the InStride and GoHorseShow references. The Equinechronicle reference should be discarded as user-generated, and I'm undertain of the others, but I don't think this qualifies for speedy. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've tossed the prod tag because this article passes that. However, I am not certain how notable this individual is in the AQHA world beyond being merely a reasonably successful trainer. Just being successful alone doesn't meet WP:GNG (else we'd have articles on thousands of horse trainers). I am going to ping Ealdgyth and Atsme who are both more familiar with the Quarter Horse world than I am to discuss this. We may need to put an AfD tag here, but I'm not going to do so myself because Mr. Brizendine's name rings a bell with me, but I'm not an AQHA insider. That said, the lead editor on this article seriously needs to learn how to spell-check, it is reining not "reigning". Also, AQHA has had a web site for decades, so I disagree that their "data capabilities are in need of some help." I am troubled that this individual's primary activities later in his life were with the Conformation Horse Association, which is well-known as a repository for HYPP-positive horses no longer allowed AQHA registration. Montanabw(talk) 18:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think a bigger problem is that the article is mostly a copyvio of this reference. Examples "The longtime AQHA Professional Horseman was known for his willingness to share his knowledge and contributed several training articles to The American Quarter Horse Journal." in the reference, "Jack was well known for his willingness to share his knowledge and contributed several training articles to The American Quarter Horse Journal." in the wikipedia article. Reference "In 2014, the AQHA Professional Horsemen’s Council recognized Jack with a lifetime achievement award." Article "In 2014, the AQHA Professional Horsemen’s Council recognized Jack Brizendine with a lifetime achievement award." Another problem "Jack earned more than 9830 points and 7150 Wins since AQHA started keeping records in 1994." is the reference but "Since 1994, when AQHA started keeping records, Jack earned 9,830 points and 7,150 wins." is the article. (We'll leave aside that the AQHA has been keeping records for a LOT earlier than 1994 - try the 1950s for solid records, earlier for hit and miss records.) It appears that this reference is an obit written by his daughter. I'd be willing to bet that the instride obit is also submitted by the family. Contributing articles to the Journal isn't that hard to do - they run a LOT of how-to articles so having a couple isn't something that makes you particularly notable. Basically he's probably a good trainer that wasn't so outstanding that we should consider doing an article on him yet. Jerry Wells or Carol Rose or any number of other trainers are more notable, honestly. You don't have to be dead to be in the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame as a person - which he isn't. I'd vote delete at AfD. This doesn't mean the man wasn't a good trainer and didn't do a lot of good - but the standard isn't "good trainer" but "very well known". Ealdgyth - Talk 19:15, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Bear in mind - there isn't a good way to search AQHA's records for exhibitors or breeders or owners, at least through their online web services. BUt here he's the trainer for one of the high point winners for 2011 (He was the trainer for another two, one also ridden by the same exhibitor as the first page I listed.). If that's enough to make you notable, we need articles for everyone trainer listed in that section. It's certainly an achievement to train well and have horses that do well, but there are a lot of very good trainers in the QH industry. We need significant coverage that asserts notability. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a requirement that all World Champions must also be Hall of Famers? What about other sports figures - are you setting a higher standard for equine professionals and world-class exhibitors than what we set for hockey players, or is there a MOS we follow for all? Atsme📞📧 20:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is not a requirement that all World Champions be Hall of Famers. You can't compare equine professionals to hockey players though - the whole system is very very different. The closest analogy here is .. someone who consistently trains World Champions and shows them in OPEN competition is probably close to a pro hockey player. Someone who consistently trains many amateur riders to World Championships - might be borderline if they did it for a number of years. Someone who trains a few amatuers to year end high point awards a few times ... is not a professional hockey player. They may be a college-level hockey player but there are a LOT of people who do that level of training, especially in the ammy and youth levels. It's not that hard to have a decent sized training stable and make it to the world championships reasonably often with your ammy or youth riders. GNG requires significant coverage ... not just mentions. Nor does writing articles translate into significant coverage. Obits are not necessarily good coverage. If the guy got a six-page spread in the QHJ as his obit - that's significant coverage. An article in the Legends books is significant coverage. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:15, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Further - "He was a high-point exhibitor between 2005 to 2012 earning over 900 points in 2011." - this appears to actually mean "he trained horses and riders that won over 900 points in 2011" - because the three year-end high point winners that listed him as a trainer for that year were ammy or youth riders, he didn't exhibit the high point horses himself. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it should even be AfD'd. I was heavily involved in Quarter Horses for a year or so as a youth, and I remember hearing about this trainer (back then, he was still showing). He should meet notability, and as the creator says, AQHA doesn't have a lot of stuff on their site. I'd check Google books - there's a possibility there's a good source or two there. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 20:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I agree with White Arabian Filly, and my past and present, very extensive experience with the QHJ and Equine Chronicle has taught me that it's difficult enough to buy a 6 page spread on demand in the Journal, much less get a 6 page write-up for an obit. Regarding comparisons - my intention was not to compare the two sports as being equivalent with regard to competition. No, no - showing horses and winning is far more difficult and expensive. lol Atsme📞📧 02:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC) PS: the points are exhibitor points, so when he showed a horse at halter and won the class, the points earned are recorded for the horse but also for the exhibitor (AQHA's exhibitor point system which began in 1994). If you think it's easy to earn points in an AQHA class, try competing in classes where there are only 5 entries and see how many points you earn. [1] added on 02:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC) [reply]

My take is that if this was a BLP, I'd get it tossed in about two seconds as unambiguous advertising. Given that the fellow is deceased, I think the article is in desperate need of cleanup and being fixed so it's not a copyvio, but we have a lifetime legacy that is probably at least as significant as some of the other trainers with articles here. While WP:OTHERSTUFF isn't much of a justification for a keep, I'd say that he's at least as notable as the Cricket and Soccer players who played one season in the pro leagues of East Nowhere that always seem to survive AfD... So I suggest that we look at the copyvio issue and fix that, as it's a must-do situation. Montanabw(talk) 00:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source

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Found this on Google books. It may not be worth anything, but it's the only one I could find.

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Montanabw, I give up - I looked and looked and looked at the article's edit source and can't find how you added that section below the Categories. Please share?? Atsme📞📧 04:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In my browser, there is nothing below the categories other than the generic wikipedia stuff that appears on every page... maybe we are talking about two different things? I think you are talking about a "see also" section... ? Or perhaps the little boxes directing people to other stuff in Commons or Wiktionary? Montanabw(talk) 04:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, what exactly are you seeing? Are you sure you didn't go to your BETA button at the top of your screen, and check the "Read More" option? That would make some things visible below Categories (generated by a bot). You can also go to BETA and revert to default settings, so extra things stop appearing. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 04:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Montanabw, Vesuvius Dogg - see [4] It's a screen capture that I uploaded to my sandbox2 if for no other reason than to prove to myself I wasn't hallucinating. 😊 Atsme📞📧 05:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. I've never seen that "related articles" thingamadoober at all! You may have some preferences enabled that I've not tried... I don't see that style when logged out, or on my "vanilla" account default user settings. (No title in color, no comment about class assessment, no online/offline tabs and I thought I had a crapload of gadgets enabled on MY account!) I peeked in Chrome, Firefox and Safari on my Mac... what are you using? Montanabw(talk) 07:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, here's my guess.. you have the "read more" preference in the Beta features enabled... (and I figured out how to get the class assessment, that's interesting, but the titles changing color annoys me so I'm not apt to use that one. I'll enable it and dink around to see if I'm right and if I can figure out what triggers the algorithm. Montanabw(talk) 07:32, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mystery partially solved; the beta feature that brings up the "related articles" section is this; the content is probably somehow generated out of Wikidata (which is why the weird photos and illogical headings are popping up). I tested this on a bunch of different articles and the program seems to favor longer articles in its picks. It's also contoversal. So those "related articles" are totally computer-generated based on some algorithm of what magic words are already in the article. @Pigsonthewing: might be able to explain to us what's going on there... Montanabw(talk) 07:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good find!!! I almost edit conflicted with you when I tried to post the following (you've since answered my question): I'm using a Mac, OS X El Capitan, and Safari 9.0.2 but it does the same thing in FireFox. Hold on - I think I've found it. User Preferences, Beta Features, Read More is checked. That's got to be it. Checkmark it, restart, and see if it shows up then. I wonder if there's a way we can control what articles are listed to more closely coincide with the main article? Atsme📞📧 07:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bugscuffle, Oklahoma ?

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The infobox claims he was born in Bugscuffle, Oklahoma; there doesn't appear to be a place of that name. There is Bugtussle, Oklahoma, so presumably it's a typo. I haven't fixed it, because I can't find a reference for it - several of the cited online references are dead links, and the working references don't give a birthplace. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 08:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

^_^ Good catch, Finlay. Fixed. checkY Atsme Talk 📧 14:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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