Talk:Italexit (political party)

Requested move 5 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) NO CONSENSUS User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

No consensus between having this page move to Italexit and having Italexit retarget to Euroscepticism#Italy, with some suggestion there could be a new standalone article. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

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Italexit (political party) → Italexit – Already redirects here, only meaning on Wikipedia. PatGallacher (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2021 (UTC) PatGallacher (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:08, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. JIP | Talk 12:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The concept of Italy leaving the European Union is distinct from this political party. The WP:PrimaryTopic for 'Italexit' is The Euroscepticism#Italy—at least for the time being—blindlynx (talk) 19:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per User:Blindlynx. --Ritchie92 (talk) 09:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment the reasons of the user who requires the move are legitimate, but I think it would be better to create an apposite page for Italexit, like Frexit, Polexit etc.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination/or, there is no need to disambiguate. --Checco (talk) 19:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Blindlynx. Amend redirect to Euroscepticism#Italy and add a section hat-note there for this article. Havelock Jones (talk) 15:19, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Primary topic

Per discussion above i think we should re-direct 'italexit' no dab to Euroscepticism#Italy—blindlynx (talk) 22:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Controversial edits

I broadly agree with User:Yakme's latest edits on the article and his effort of limiting promotional material. I think that more relevant to the subject is mentioning that the party is now polled at 2–4% than Robby Giusti. It may be a matter of discussion, but these issues are no big deal to me. However, if there is any disagreement on the article's content, I advise User:BertieTheBrain and User:Cameraman1999 to discuss here, instead of writing in user talk pages, and, definitely to avoid edit warring and total rollbacks. --Checco (talk) 16:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Checco BertieTheBrain has been blocked indefinitely. Anyway I agree that story of Robby Giusti is at the moment not relevant enough to end up in this article. Yakme (talk) 16:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I apologize if I discussed in the wrong section, I will now act with my account and through the right sections. I also agree with the changes of user @Yakme. Cameraman1999 (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I didn't see this discussion. Anyway, I've just removed the section about "Robby Giusti". Having an entire section dedicated to the SMM of a party is quite abdsurd. Moreover, the section was written by Giusti himself, so... -- Nick.mon (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree, @User:Nick.mon, but are you sure that Robby Giusti is behind one of the users cited above? How can you say it? Thanks, --Checco (talk) 17:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

@Checco: See User:BertieTheBrain/sandbox. I mean, or BertieTheBrain is a huge fan of "Robby Giusti", or I believe that he is Giusti himself. -- Nick.mon (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Euroscepticism" vs "Hard Euroscepticism"

Hi all, I noted an incipient edit war on the definition of the party's political position between Euroscepticism (a broad definition for any type of criticism of the EU) and Hard Euroscepticism (a more punctual definition of the former, corresponding to "a principled opposition to the EU and European integration and therefore can be seen in parties who think that their countries should withdraw from membership, or whose policies towards the EU are tantamount to being opposed to the whole project of European integration as it is currently conceived.")
Considering that the party "Italexit" has the stated goal of withdrawing from the EU in its very name, I'm leaning to consider the party's ideology as "hard eurosceptic". What do you think? --P1221 (talk) 08:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• First, I think that "Euroscepticism" should not be listed among ideologies, as it is not an ideology, but a policy. Secondly, I think that any distinction between "hard" and "soft Euroscepticism" borders original research or, at best, it is a blurred one: "Euroscepticism" is enough, without additional attributes. Another issue is over the party's main ideology: in my view, it is clearly "populism", featuring multiple issues, from Eurosceptiscim to vaccine hesitancy, from economic populism to anti-lockdown stances. --Checco (talk) 16:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we should not use "hard Euroscepticism" here, or in any other en.wiki article (as with "soft" Euroscepticism), because they are often misleadingly used, and rarely are accurate sources used to back up such claims.--Autospark (talk) 16:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree with the first post by P1221. It clearly meets the definition of hard Eurosceptic by advocating withdrawal from the EU. Just saying Eurosceptic is misleading as it is more than just sceptical or critical of the EU. Also, we have no consensus on Euroscepticism not being a political ideology and it is prevalent in many political party infoboxes with rarely any contention about its inclusion. A broader debate and consensus would be needed on its overall inclusion within political party infoboxes rather than selectively removing it from certain political party pages given how prevalent it is across Wikipedia. The same goes for hard and soft Euroscepticism. I.e., these are also widely used and would need broader consensus before we decide they cannot be used. Helper201 (talk) 17:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Checco, I would just like to point out that "Euroscepticism" is identified as ideology in all infoboxes of political parties' articles I looked to. Considering Italian parties only, you can find that Five Star Movement has "soft Euroscepticism" as ideology, CasaPound and Communist Party (Italy) have "hard Euroscepticism" as ideology, Lega, Brothers of Italy, and Tricolour Flame have just "Euroscepticism" as ideology. You can find also that pro-Europeanism is similarly considered as an ideology.

Probably you might be right that "Euroscepticism" shall not be considered an ideology but a policy, but this needs a broader discussion.

Keeping the discussion to the current article, considering the common practice shown above, I would feel comfortable to define the ideology of this party as "hard Euroscepticism". P1221 (talk) 07:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• User:Checco, User:Autospark, I think there is an objective difference between "to remain in the EU, but to not support some EU policies" and "to leave EU and euro outright"... How can this difference be considered WP:OR? If you think so, I suggest you to open a discussion at the article Euroscepticism, which has referenced sections for both Hard-Euroscepticism and Soft-Euroscepticism... P1221 (talk) 17:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

• Can someone provide a WP:RS stating explicitly that Italexit is a (hard) Eurosceptic party? I feel like we are making the following reasoning: "Italexit wants Italy to leave the EU, and therefore it is a (hard) Eurosceptic party". This is the textbook example of WP:OR. Yakme (talk) 08:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• I agree that the "pro-Europeanism and Euroscepticism in party infoboxes" issue would need a broad discussion, however, even though most European parties are either pro-Europeanist or Eurosceptic, only a minority of them have one of the two policies mentioned in their infoboxes. Surely, "Euroscepticism" is more common than "pro-Europeanism".

This said, this discussion is showing that there is no consensus yet on "hard Euroscepticism" as one of Italexit's ideologies and I am thus going to restore pure and simple "Euroscepticism". At the same time, no-one opposed "populism" and, clearly, that is one ideology we should mention in the article and the infobox. --Checco (talk) 16:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Yakme, I can't understand how a party "which, at article 1 of the statute, has as first objective the withdrawal of Italy from EU and euro" (link from article, translation is mine) could be defined not-Eurosceptic... That would really be an WP:OR.

Said that, I'm posting some sources stating explicitly that Italexit party is eurosceptic:

Paragone da Rovigo lancerà il nuovo partito Italexit, Il Gazzettino (in Italian);

How likely are the 'big four' European economies to vote to leave the EU if Brexit works out?, Euronews (in English);

Gli sviluppi del dibattito tra europeismo e sovranismo, Libero Pensiero (in Italian);

Italexit: Can the party cut Italy out of the EU?, TRTWorld (in English);

De Luca M. (2022). Methods for analysing citizens' attitudes: a hypothetical Italian referendum about the membership of the European Union as a case study. Quality & quantity, 56(3), 1681–1699. doi: 10.1007/s11135-021-01201-y

Solza in campo per Italexit C’è la lista «euroscettica», BresciaOggi (in Italian);

Italexit muove i primi passi a Nordest, Vicenza Today (in Italian);

Perché si torna a parlare di Italexit? Da Paragone al referendum di Sgarbi, Money.it (in Italian).

@Checco, probably it would be better to wait some days after the last answer in this discussion before reaching a final conclusion... P1221 (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for providing sources. I would definitely add a few of them to the article: Euronews and the De Luca publication are good sources, and Money.it can be acceptable. I would tend to avoid using local news sources as RS for such a general statement about a national party. Yakme (talk) 10:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The terms "hard" and "soft" Euroscepticism should IMO not be used in any article – those are mostly just a journalistic invention, and besides, even then there is no consensus over specific meanings of both terms.--Autospark (talk) 15:59, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Disagree. The terms "hard" and "soft" were created and are still widely used (see this, this and this, for instance) in academic publications. ECPS (European Center for Populism Studies) has two sourced and detailed articles defining what "soft" and "hard" euroscepticism are. P1221 (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

No-one is denying that Italexit is Eurosceptic. Some of us are simply arguing over including "Euroscepticism" in infoboxes, but there is no consensus about removing it right now. Also, there is clearly no consensus here for "hard Euroscepticism". More generally, Italexit is clearly a populist party, featuring Euroscepticism, economic interventionism, vaccine hesitancy, anti-lockdown stance, etc. I think a good compromise would be to list in the article's lead and infobox "populism" and "Euroscepticism". --Checco (talk) 12:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, it does not matter what editors think the party is. This is not how consensus on WP works. The positions that matter are the ones backed by reliable sources. If populism and (hard) Euroscepticism are both backed by sources, then we include both. A !vote here by majority is not the way to go. Yakme (talk) 07:43, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Surely, there are no sources for hard Euroscepticism. --Checco (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• You're all invited to offer opinions here, in the Talk page of Euroscepticism. Pinging User:P1221, User:Checco, User:Autospark, User:Helper201, User:Yakme.-The Gnome (talk) 17:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

2022 Administrative/Local Elections

Hi, I wanted to bring to your attention the fact that, at the last Administrative Elections (Local Elections) of 2022 Italexit presented itself in coalition with other movements, including "Alternative" and "Popolo della Famiglia", within coalitions or lists unique in Palermo, Genoa, Verona and other cities that I had listed in my edit. can I know why the results of these cities have been removed since the last change?

Finally, I wanted to communicate, since there was also a source on the matter, that the party actually openly invited people to desert the vote during the 2022 Referendum.

Thanks in advance! 💪🏻 Cameraman1999 (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Paragone announced that he would desert the vote on the referendum, but I was not able to find an official position by the party: if you find it, it is much welcome, although I do not think that the issue is particularly important. Regarding electoral results, I think that listing the electoral results by Italexit as a stand-alone list is enough, but, anyway, I added "while supporting joint lists with other parties in some places". After all, we do not need to have detailed information on each local election. --Checco (talk) 08:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I was told, by various party leaders, that the official position was abstention and to testify there are posters published in the official social pages of the party, however these obviously do not count as sources, on these positions and on these subjects with little influence it is difficult to find clear positions, the newspapers do not talk about them much in general.

Thanks a lot for the answer! Cameraman1999 (talk) 23:49, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

It was clear that people belonging or related to the party have been editing this page recently, however let me remind you that things such as "I personally know party leaders" or "a party member told me that" and other personal knowledge that is not backed by verifiable sources does not count as reliable. Yakme (talk) 07:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Ideology of the party

I have seen that populism is removed from the ideologies in the infobox. Surely "Populism" is not very descriptive as an ideology (it is more a way of doing politics than an ideology) but indicating just Euroscepticism seems to me quite reductive. Undoubtedly Italexit is a Eurosceptic party, but it is not a Single-issue politics party. We should be considered that a journalistic source directly describes the party as populist, and that several sources thus describe the party leader. It should also be considered that, in some cases, the "citation needed" template can be applied in the absence of sources. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I totally agree. "Populism" is an appropriate umbrella-ideology for this party—and for other parties and coalitions as well (think of Alternative, Sovereign and Popular Italy, etc.). Moreover, "Euroscepticism" (or, for that matter, "sovereigntism") is a policy more than an ideology. Italexit is indeed a full-fledged populist party, whose platform features multiple issues, from Eurosceptiscim to vaccine hesitancy, from economic populism to anti-lockdown stances. As of late, the party is known more for its opposition to Covid-19 regulations than Euroscepticism. "Populism" should be mentioned as the party's main ideology. I am sure that we will find more sources on it moving forward. --Checco (talk) 06:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Checco You have been asked to form a consensus before placing populism at the top of the ideology list. Please do this rather than constantly enforcing your own view. Helper201 (talk) 16:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

As you can see from the article's history, also other users have done just that. There is practically a consensus on having "populism" as the party's main ideology. Moreover, despite its name, the party's main campaign themes are its opposition to Covid restrictions (including vaccine hesitancy and the proposal for a committee overseeing the handling of the pandemic by the Italian government), economic populism and more regulation of the labour market. The party is surely also Eurosceptic, but Euroscepticism is hardly the party's main ideology and, actually, it is not even an ideology, but a policy. --Checco (talk) 20:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually, looking back at every single edit going back from now to over a month ago, you are the only editor that has been moving populism to the top of the ideology list in the infobox. Even if what you say were to be the case, this ad-hoc changing is not a consensus building exercise. There is no "practical consensus", either formally or informally, the latter of which is no justification here. What you are saying is simply you stating your own original research. Euroscepticism has more citations currently and the one sole citation for populism is from a source of unknown reliability, I myself have never even heard of it. Pease actually form a consensus as you have been asked before changing this. Helper201 (talk) 22:31, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

"Right wing"? No sources for it

Greetings, all. A recent edit by Nick.mon inserted "right wing" into the political ideology of the Italexit party. The reason for this given in the edit summary is as follows: "A party self-described as 'conservative' by its leader and which forms pacts with CasaPound's members is on the right-wing of the political spectrum". However, this is clearly a personal viewpoint, since we cannot find enough independent, secondary, reliable sources that support the "right wing" description. (One is tempted to counter-argue here that Italexit's opposition to Italy's NATO membership renders a bit difficult to accept the edit. But, again, let us strictly follow sources.) -The Gnome (talk) 22:39, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I also personally think Italexit is a right-wing party, but I agree that we need RS supporting this. However, why would opposition to NATO membership be an indication of being right-wing? Most of the extra-parliamentary Italian far-left is against NATO. Yakme (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

You misunderstood. There was an edit that added the "right wing" description. I challenged that characterization due to lack of sources supporting it and reverted the edit. As an aside, but not as an argument, I remarked that, in any case, it would be hard to argue that Italexit is "right wing" when it supports Italy's exit from NATO, a position typical of non-right wing parties, in general. But, in any case, we should stand on sources; not on our personal conclusions. -The Gnome (talk) 12:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Italexit is clearly right-wing (thus I agree User:Nick.mon's edit), arguably the real right-wing populist party in Italy, while the League is a much more mainstream party and FdI is a national-conservative one. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to find sources classifying all the Italian political parties in a consistent way. --Checco (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I fully respect your take on the Italexit party. Of course, in order to make it into the text, it needs to be supported by sources. So far, the text reflects what's out there. "Difficult to find sources" or not, we cannot create our own text. -The Gnome (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I have emptied the field regarding the political position, maybe for now it is better to leave it like this and discuss it. At the moment the sources on the political position of this party are few and conflicting. However, between the book "Propaganda Europa" and the article from "Il Post" inserted by NKC43, the source that analyzes the party in a more articulated way seems to me the first one.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

So what do we do with the position? At the moment it seems to me there is only one reliable source...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:00, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

It is often not easy to find good sources on political parties in Italy. As of now, I have three sources explaining that Italexit is right-wing (in my view, to the right of FdI): [1], [2] and [3]. More important, it is clear to me that, taking into consideration the party's program, campaign material and themes, Italexit is mainly a populist party. "Populism" (or, as Paragone puts it every time I see him on television, the struggle between "people and elite") should be cited as the party's first ideology. --Checco (talk) 06:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

@Checco: It seems to me too a right-wing or far-right party, but the sources are important, and the available sources are not among the most reliable. We could indicate Far-right in the field for the political position, with a reference note specifying that Italexit is also considered a big tent party. As for ideologies, I have already explained that I no longer want to get involved in useless discussions on the order of ideologies in the infobox.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Symbols

We have the party's current symbol in the infobox. There is simply no need to have it again in the text, side by side with the previous one. They're both quite similar, and their presence in the article does not impart any encyclopaedic insight at all. (It's not, for example, as if the symbol change indicates some radical, ideological shift, such as the Communist Party's deletion of the hammer & sickle, when the party evolved into the Democratici di Sinistra.) Plus, the change happened quite soon after the first Italexit symbol was created. I suggest we get rid of the gallery section entirely. -The Gnome (talk) 12:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm taking it out and if anyone objects to the edit, please revert it but also justify the encyclopaedic worth of having two identical images of a party's symbol. -The Gnome (talk) 09:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Azzuro dove?

The text informs us that the official "color" of the Italexit party is "blue" but without any supporting sources for this. Could we find any? -The Gnome (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Effectively blue is not the official color of the party, but it seems to be the customary color. It is in fact the prevailing color in the propaganda material and on the party website.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Is there something more specific than that? We need a non-primary source. -The Gnome (talk) 19:03, 24 September 2022 (UTC)