Talk:Istanbul University

exaggeration?

It is at the very least an exaggeration, if not inaccurate, to state that graduates of Istanbul University form the main supply of academic personnel to the rest of the Turkish higher education system. There are no statistics to support this claim. The statement concerned only relects the partiality of the writer of the article and should be amended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.206.199 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

University's establishment in 1453 is also a very dubious statement. At best that year what established was a medrese not a university. Istanbul University's establisment goes back only to establishment of Dar-ul Funun in late 19th century —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.216.151.84 (talk • contribs) 05:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Byzantine University

Supposedly 1453 was also when the old Byzantine University was closed down. Any information on whether this is true and on whether the Istanbul University is the Byzantine university refounded?Sephia karta 15:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There was no such thing as a Byzantine University. DragonTiger23 (talk) 12:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

University of Constantinople was founded in 425 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Constantinople — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.138.205 (talk) 02:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Established at 1453 by Kemal Atatürk ??

If it is established at 1453 the funder should be Mehmet the Conqueror. If it is funded by Kemal Atatürk then it is established at 1933. The author should change the infobox to what is more accurate. agmpinia 19:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Alumni List

Doesn't it look confusing? Umutarikan

The University was founded in the late 19th century - the history of the University starts from the date of its founding, not sooner. A medrese as a place of higher education is -organisationally speaking- a totally different thing than a western University. So the only date should be that of the official founding of the institution. One can mention the existence of one medrese or more prior to the founding of the University.

Could Dr. Serdar Bulun be added to the list of notable alumni? 204.62.118.154 (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

can the students in english

I won to know ,if my son wont to study at your university, can yuo offer this in english language. Thank you from Tirana Albania —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.35.18 (talk) 09:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Same this ques Shabi naeemy (talk) 21:49, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Reorganization in the Ottoman Era

The Servet-i-Funun wrote about its 1917 reorganization https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129156/361/PFSIF9170524B004.jpg

from Issue #1349, 24 May 1917, French edition WhisperToMe (talk) 04:52, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Establishment Date

Istanbul University was not founded in 1453. This is a falsehood. Turkish scholar and public intellectual Celal Şengör also objected to this along with journalist Fatih Altaylı.[1][2][3] This is the same case with Turkish Land Forces as the foundation date stated there was 209 BC. Before 1933, the year when Istanbul University was established, the place was used as a madrasah. So, calling the madrasah that was inherited and then transformed from Byzantines in 1453 as Istanbul University is like calling Constantinople, İstanbul. What do you think @SilentResident:--V. E. (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes the sources confirm it was a madrasah, not University before that date. The sources confirm that it was established as Istanbul University in 1933. Therefore we can't say that an Istanbul University existed before the date of establishment of the actual Istanbul University. Its not only anachronistic but also clearly a falsehood, presumably aiming at giving the institute more historical prestige. I would expect anachronistic claims in the fields of politics and military but not in the field of high education, so consider myself surprised about seeing this because the usual practice for universities across the world is to display just the actual foundation date on their seals/emblems. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:39, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

What confuses things is that western sources before 1933 talked about a "University of Constantinople" or a "University of Stamboul" though technically it may have been just a medrese WhisperToMe (talk) 09:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

An example of such is in China, some xueyuan (institutes/colleges) are called "universities" in English, but their Chinese names very much are not university (daxue). I would like to know what Dar-ul-funun officially referred to itself in French (which was in the empire then like how English is today). WhisperToMe (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

3RR and Establishment Date

The IP user violates 3rr. Already presented sources state the year 1453 is a falsehood. Also WP:BRITANNICA is not a reliable source. The information was added after a concencus and should not be changed without another one. @Mwiqdoh: @SilentResident:--V. E. (talk) 14:19, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Visnelma: this source says some interesting stuff, check it out. "Istanbul University can trace its origins back to 1453, when it was founded by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II as a school of philosophy, medicine, law and letters. It has gone through many iterations since then, serving as a madrasah (Ismalic theological school) and as an institution of higher education called the Darülfünûn (House of Sciences) in the 19th century, before being established as Istanbul University in 1933 after Mustafa Kemal Atatürk reformed Turkey’s education system. ", so that is some valuable information that we should consider. Mwiqdoh (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mwiqdoh: The source you cited states "before being established as Istanbul University in 1933". Before that it was a madrassah not a university. So, putting 1453 as the establishment date is wrong.--V. E. (talk) 14:36, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Visnelma: So where would we put that then? Mwiqdoh (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mwiqdoh: It should be mentioned in the history section to inform the reader about the university's origins but not as an actual establishment date as the the university was founded in 1933. I think that before IP reverted it, the information was properly presented already.--V. E. (talk) 14:40, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Using the date 1453 as the university's establishment date was also criticised by the Turkish intellectual and academic Celal Şengör and journalist Fatih Altaylı for the same reason which were cited in the stable version. Links are present in the earlier discussion.--V. E. (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Visnelma: Okay, thank you, and sorry for causing any issues. Mwiqdoh (talk) 14:56, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Unrelevent to the discussion

SilentResident: this person is a greek editor and always seems to support you. this is the one you always refer to. I can confirm this. You should check out the references from the founding date of oxford or other universities. (...) the references you show in many places appear to be controversial and have already started to be deleted. I hope you will put an end to this propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.195.203 (talk) 14:24, 18 June 2021 (UTC) There are no unfounded accusations. You are making historical disinformation and propaganda. How was Oxford University founded? How was the date of establishment referenced?. As seen on your SilentResident talk page, your friendship becomes clear. It is certainly not impartial.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/organisation/history

Histroy :https://www.istanbul.edu.tr/tr/content/universitemiz/tarihce

is not controversial. The foundation dates of other universities are also taken as reference. I showed you how to reference the foundation dates of other universities. You are still vandalizing.Celal Şengör is an extreme person who says that Fatih Sultan Mehmet is a Christian. You are presenting extremist anti-Turkish ideas as a source without any academic work.

so your defense is copyright? I'm showing you a realistic source. I am not citing an extreme geologist(Celal Şengör). This is the history article of Istanbul University. This article is in many places.

(redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.195.203 (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: Everyone should ignore the lengthy post by IP. They have been banned by the Admins and the same fate awaits everyone who may insist with either disruptions, harassments or insults against fellow editors or violating Wikipedia's rules. There is no WP:CONSENSUS for using fringe dates and it goes against Wikipedia's WP:NEUTRALITY and WP:VERIFIABILITY rules. Good day everyone! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:26, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: The above comment by 88.245.195.203 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been redacted as a copyvio of [4], and will be revdel'd shortly. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:56, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Pre-1930s name used in English/French/German/etc sources

@Bogazicili: IMO it is not undue to source the name used in English/French/German etc. sources (especially as this is ENwiki and almost all editors cannot read Ottoman Turkish sources!) up until the 1930s. Additionally, because the university was called "University of Constantinople", some people reading older sources may try to go to University of Constantinople to look for this university, but they won't find this university but a much older one. There needs to be a disambig to this page, and this page needs to have the sources that prove that the disambig is needed. However I decided to make this a footnote, so the prominence is reduced in the article, and so it's not in the lead anymore.

Why this is important: Istanbul was called Constantinople (that is, the entire city) in English and other European languages until the 1930s (and this includes Ottoman government documents). So if someone is reading newspapers in English in the late 1800s up to the 1920s, Dar-ul-funun was called "University of Constantinople" and/or "University of Stamboul", and they should understand those mean Dar-al-funun (precursor of Istanbul University). "Stamboul" was used in English/French/German/etc to refer to the historic inner city (separate from Pera/Beyoglu and Scutari/Uskudar).

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Examples of use of the "University of Constantinople" from American newspapers and U.S. government documents in the 1910s and 1920s:

• "German Professors to teach Turkish Youths". Knoxville Sentinel. Knoxville, Tennessee. 1915-11-16. p. 16 – via Newspapers.com.
• "Unique Student Enters Tulsa U.". Sand Springs Leader. Vol. 8, no. 46. Sand Springs, Oklahoma. 1921-05-20. p. 1 – via Newspapers.com.
• "German Teachers for Turks". St. Joseph Press-News. St. Joseph, Missouri. 1915-08-24. p. 6 – via Newspapers.com.
• Biographic Register of the Department of State. United States Department of State. 1912. p. 167. - PDF

Examples of the use of "University of Stamboul" from American and British newspapers in the 1920s/1930s:

• "Three Great Moslem Universities". St. Louis Globe-Democrat. St. Louis. 1933-09-03. p. 2D – via Newspapers.com. - Identifies the "University of Stamboul" as being the same thing as Dar-ul-funun, while it refers to Istanbul University as the "University of Constantinople".
• "Old Schools Scrapped in Turkey". The Baltimore Sun. Baltimore. 1933-10-01. p. 2 – via Newspapers.com. - This outright says that "University of Stamboul" is the same thing as "Dar-ul-funun".
• "Fez and Veiled Woman Gone as Turk Adopts Ways of Western World". The Minneapolis Star. Minneapolis. 1929-09-06. p. 8 – via Newspapers.com. - Before the headline "Schools Are Established" the phrase "The old ministry of war building is now used by the University of Stamboul[...]" is there
• Pernot, Maurice (1926-04-05). "Near East Problems The New Turkey". The Daily Telegraph. London. p. 8 – via Newspapers.com.

WhisperToMe (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

And an obit article on Ben-Gurion from the 1970s:

• Bushinsky, Jay (1973-12-02). "Jewish State in the Land of Israel Was Life Goal Ben-Gurion Realized". The Miami Herald. Miami. p. 14-B – via Newspapers.com. [...]Ben-Gurion studied law at the University of Constantinople[...] - This clearly refers to Dar-ul-funun due to the time period.

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

For French, German, etc:

• French: "Légendes sur les Nartes suivies de cinq notes mythologiques. By Georges Dumézil, Professor à l'Universite de Constantinople. 10 × 6½, pp. xii + 213. Paris: Champion, 1930. Price 40 fs". Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. April 1931. pp. 446–447. doi:10.1017/S0035869X00110263.
• Mordtmann, Andreas (1877). Stambul und das moderne Türkenthum: politische, sociale und biographische bilder von einem Osmanen (in German). Leipzig: Duncker & Humblot. p. 179. In diese Zeit fällt auch die Stiftung der sogenannten „ Universität von Konstantinopel", welche aber einstweilen nur eine einzige Facultät enthält, nämlich eine juristische mit zwei oder drei Professoren, jedoch den ganzen Beamtenapparat einer Universitas litterarum. - PDF

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

It's UNDUE in the lead. You can put it into History section, or create a Names section. We can't have a giant part in the lead just because what a Western newspaper said in 1930s. Or find WP:Tertiary sources to demonstrate WP:DUE.

Again, you are using a similar argument that you used here: Talk:Ankara#Use_of_Constantinople

By your logic, there should be no Byzantine Empire article in Wikipedia, because sources at the time of Byzantine Empire did not use the term Byzantine. Use modern-day sources for WP:Commonname.

Also be mindful of the Eurocentric bias, which is common in English-language Wikipedia.

PhD thesis:

It demonstrates that Wikipedia narratives about national histories are distributed unevenly across the continents, with significant focus on the history of European countries (Eurocentric bias)

Bogazicili (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Bogazicili,

I've already footnoted the names used in older Western European sources. WP:COMMONNAME isn't an issue here as I haven't replaced all instances of "Dar-ul-funun" (the Ottoman Turkish name of the pre-1930s institution) with any French or English names, and I'm not advocating for doing that here. Rather I'm just explaining what those older sources called "Dar-ul-funun".

On a lark I checked Google Books to see if any secondary sources actually commented on the usage of "University of Constantinople". I've seen an English language academic book using "University of Constantinople" to refer to Dar-ul-funun (The Young Turks Prelude to the Revolution of 1908 by E. E. Ramsaur, Princeton University Press (1957), page 18): "The University of Constantinople was not founded until 1900,[...]"). I have not seen any yet which explained/elaborated upon the names "University of Constantinople" or "University of Stamboul", on why or how they were used.

I also do not know what Dar ul-funun called itself in French (or possibly in English). I don't want to give either "University of Constantinople" or "University of Stamboul" any more prominence in the article unless/until I know what its official French name was. (an analogy is that Chinese universities today generally each have an official name in Chinese and an official name in English, the latter used to communicate to foreigners.) I am also aware that modern day academic sources tend to use "Dar ul-Funun" or "University of Istanbul" to refer to the Ottoman institution.

I agree that narratives about histories need to be distributed equitably among ethnic groups, continents, and groups of people. This is why considering the late Ottoman Empire is complicated, because Europe took an outsized importance in its foreign affairs (versus in earlier eras). This postcard of Enver Pasha, for example, used French and not Arabic or Persian as its second language: File:1908-mesrutiyet.jpg. Most of the embassies/consulates of the late empire seem to have been in Europe too (List of diplomatic missions of the Ottoman Empire). (if there are more embassies/consulates you know about, please add them!)

Additionally, I think it is important to consider that ENwiki readers have a linguistic barrier that makes it so that any primary source documents they read about the empire will more or less be in English, French, German etc., and those sources were written for ethnic minority groups and/or for foreigners in the Ottoman Empire. And so, they are more likely to encounter names like "University of Constantinople". This means that such names are relatively more important for ENwiki readers.

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello WhisperToMe,

I am not interested in WP:Forum-like discussions. And I'm not sure what you are asking me or what you want changed in the article, if anything.

Please use modern-day sources. If we used 8th century AD sources for Byzantine Empire, we would have to rename it.

Official name in French is also not very relevant. See WP:Commonname and WP:USENATIVE. Also, in English-language Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred. See WP:RSUEC Bogazicili (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Bogazicili,

I can't make this change right now because I don't know what it is, but if I find it I think the official French name of Darülfünûn should be acknowledged in the article text.

An official name in French in the late Ottoman period was used in a way that an official English name is today, as in, very relevant for the time period. Johann Strauss, an academic, explained how and why French was important in the late empire. I quote, on p. 122: "In a way reminiscent of English in the contemporary world, French was almost omnipresent in the Ottoman lands."

I am aware that as per the multiple guidelines like using modern sources, WP:Commonname and WP:USENATIVE (the latter asks for the most numerous non-English language), the Turkish Darülfünûn should be the preferred way of referring to the institution throughout the article and not the French name. The French name can be footnoted.

I am also aware the article should be mostly based on modern sources, but that does not mean contemporary sources will never be used. Modern sources may not cover certain aspects that are found in contemporary ones.

I am aware that English language sources are preferred, but if those do not exist for an aspect, an average Enwiki reader is going to, in regards to contemporary sources, read stuff in French and German, not Ottoman Turkish.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that French was commonly used among nobility in many countries in 19th century, such as Russian or German nobility [5][6]. This isn't unique to Ottomans. I don't see you trying to add French to Moscow State University.

It is also WP:OR to find a source such as Johann Strauss above and apply it to multiple Ottoman articles. For Istanbul University, you need an overview WP:Secondary source about Istanbul University or a WP:Tertiary source such as an encyclopedia about universities.

Please be more careful about Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, especially in contentious topics such as this. Bogazicili (talk) 14:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I found a secondary source that discussed Darülfünûn-u Sultanî and its three schools. This is a 2019 book, published by Oxford University Press.

• Ihsanoglu, Ekmeleddin (2019-06-19). The House of Sciences: The First Modern University in the Muslim World. Oxford University Press. p. 45 – via Google Books.

It stated that the three constituent schools, of law, sciences, and arts, "were also referred to by their French names in tandem with the Turkish". The page brings up the name "Université Impériale Ottoman" though apparently Sawas Pasha was using that as an equivalent to the Turkish name "Mekatib-i Aliye" and had confused certain names. I'll have to look at this some more... WhisperToMe (talk) 04:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems like an official French name was not made, but that one of the key planners had confused some names in French, so he used university as an equivalent to mekatib... Either way I don't think there is any official French name to add to the article, but this is a good note about the constituent schools if one is to write about them in the future. As for Russia, it seemed that universities of that era generally used Russian full stop (with differences in ethnic minority areas, though those were Russified), so it seems to be a different scenario. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

The book in Turkish:

• Demirtaş, Aydın. "Osmanlı Mektepleri ve Dârülfünûn". In Fuat Aydın; Mehmet Bahçekapılı; Mahmut Zengin; Hasan Meydan; Abdurrahman Hendek (eds.). OSMANLI MEKTEPLERİ (Bir Modernleşme Çabası Olarak Osmanlı Eğitiminde Yeni Arayışlar) (PDF) (in Turkish). The Center for Values Education Press. ISBN 978-605-73807-3-9.

... had a statement on PDF p. 49/536: "Hukuk, Mühendislik ve Edebiyat fakültelerinden oluşan bu yükseköğretim kurumuna Dârülfünûn-ı Sultani (Université Impériale Ottoman) adı verildi."

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this would be a WP:Secondary source.

This is not Istanbul University, but you can add the French name to this sentence in Istanbul_University#History section if you want: In 1874 the Darülfünûn-u Sultanî (lit. the Royal College of Natural Sciences) began offering law classes in French, but was closed in 1881. Bogazicili (talk) 15:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)