Jump to content

Talk:Islamism in the Gaza Strip

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Causes of growth of influence of Islamic groups.

[edit]

Article states: The influence of Islamic groups in the Gaza Strip has grown significantly since the 1980's, especially as poverty has risen and fighting with Israel began in 2000. Source 2 states: The influence of Islamic groups in the Gaza Strip has grown over the past three decades, especially as poverty has risen since fighting with Israel began in 2000.

Which is not the same.

Besides that I think what is stated here is a causal relation between poverty, fighting with Israel and the influence of Islamic groups. While this might be true it´s not trivially so. Therefore the statement would deserve a paragraph on it´s own. And also then it should be properly sourced, not just with one by-sentence in a news article.

I´ll remove ´significantly´, it doesn´t do anthing usefull here. ABMvandeBult (talk) 11:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sharia law

[edit]

Marokwitz just made an edit which includes the following statement: In 2008, The Hamas Palestinian Legislative Council in the Gaza Strip voted in favor of a law allowing courts to enact the Islamic penal code, including punishment by lashes, hand amputations, crucifixion, and execution.

The source is in Arabic, so I can't read it. Does the source actually state that the council voted in favour of "punishment by lashes, hand amputations, crucifixion, and execution", or is that just an OR addition? Furthermore, how can it be that the council both voted in favour and the President denied it? Shouldn't it say the council allegedly voted in favour of it if it's been denied? Also, how reliable a source is al-Arabiya? Gatoclass (talk) 10:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On reflection, I have deleted the section. This alleged vote took place in 2008 and obviously there have been no reports of hand amputations etc since, so obviously it's a highly dubious claim. Gatoclass (talk) 10:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After some more digging, I agree that the wording was too decisive, I don't know if the claim is true, but it was reported by several reliable sources - The newspaper Al Hayat of London, Al Arabia, JPOST and ynetnews. A source in English is here: Hamas pushes for Sharia punishments. and another one [1] .I'm open to opinions of other editors regarding whether this incident is notable enough for inclusion in the present article. Marokwitz (talk) 12:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update - I found this blog post [2] which says that the report was mistaken, and what actually happened is that the law is indeed being prepared (something nobody denied), but it is still at the drafting and discussion stage. But note this is a blog post and not a RS so I will need to find better sources . Marokwitz (talk) 12:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Gatoclass (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

[edit]

See discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hamas_and_the_Taliban_analogy for some arguments for this merger. Tijfo098 (talk) 16:24, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant quote

[edit]

I would think that the following quote, from the "dress code" section...

In 2007, Islamic group Swords of Truth threatened to behead female TV broadcasters if they didn't wear strict Islamic dress. "We will cut throats, and from vein to vein, if needed to protect the spirit and moral of this nation," their statement said. The group also accused the women broadcasters of being "without any ... shame or morals." Personal threats against female broadcasters were also sent to the women's mobile phones, though it was not clear if these threats were from the same group. Gazan anchorwomen interviewed by the Associated Press said that they were frightened by the Swords of Truth's statement.

...would be totally irrelevant, since this has nothing to do with Gazan authorities or any Islamization. The Islamic policies implemented during Hamas rule of the Gaza strip is all this article regards. Indeed, it appears that the sole purpose of this article is to compare Hamas to the Taliban, or somehow support the opinion that Gaza is slowly evolving toward Taliban-style governance. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To make it obvious that the intention of this article is to draw comparisons between Hamas and the Taliban, the article mentions "Taliban" or "Talibanization" a total of 15 times, not including the image caption or the template at the bottom (that count, does, however, include quotes). The only reason that so many quotes mentioning the Taliban from various editorials or opinion pieces are included is just more evidence of this. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about "Islamization of the Gaza Strip" - not just Hamas's efforts in that respect. The quote tlaks about an "Islamic group ... threatened to behead female TV broadcasters if they didn't wear strict Islamic dress." - clearly relevant to the article's topic . Ruby Tuesday ALMWR (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The lede in the article on Islamization defines it (in this sense) as "...the imposition of an Islamist social and political style on a society". The example of an Islamist group threatening to kill female news anchors is not equivalent to, or even a component of, "imposition of an Islamist social and political style" in Gaza. Islamic measures by the authorities, or expressions by the authorities of support for Islamization, are examples of Islamization. Some random group of fanatics threatening decapitations, with no approval from the government, is not "imposition" of Islamism.
Incidentally, who are you a sockpuppet of? 96.26.213.146 (talk) 04:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You are hiding behind a cell phone IP and accusing others of being a sockpuppet. Delicious irony.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a cellphone, you moron[3]. It is a "personal hotspot" manufactured by Clearwire. Even if it was a cellphone, that would not negate the possibility that I am not editing legitimately. Additionally, "Ruby Tuesday ALMWR" is quite obviously a sockpuppet. 96.26.213.146 (talk) 06:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crazy article

[edit]

Why isn't this more controversial? What proof can there be of "informal coercion" of Muslim women to dress in accordance with their religion, or that arson was committed by "unknown gunmen" - if you didn't see it happen or know who did it, then how do you know they had guns?! The whole article seems to aim to incite panic. The section on criticism by Palestinians of this supposed phenomenon is a clever diversion tactic - notably absent is criticism by Israelis. I guess that's where this article as a whole comes in. Same goes for persecution of Christians against the notable absence of any mention of Jewish people. Gaza Strip is a warzone. I doubt anyone living there has time to deviously influence the culture as part of some masterplan. To me this smacks of propaganda. Omgplz (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changing redirect that currently points here

[edit]

I'd like to change Religion in the Gaza Strip (a redirect that currently points here) to point to Gaza#Religion. See Talk:Religion in the Gaza Strip. Superm401 - Talk 10:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 November 2015

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Move request withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 01:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Islamization of the Gaza Strip → Talibanization of the Gaza Strip – "Islamization" fails precision criterion. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Gaza Strip underwent Islamization over a millenium ago. The current process is best understood as Talibanization, as is referenced numerous times throughout the article, and thus the current title fails the "precision" criterion of article titles. I propose changing the name of this article to "Talibanization of the Gaza Strip." -0nlyth3truth (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Most uses of the neologism "Talibanization" refer to processes in Afghanistan and Pakistan which involve the Taliban specifically. Even though there are exceptions, the term will confuse many readers. Mind you, the current title is also unacceptable. For one thing, it only makes sense if Islam is identified with a particular coercive form of Islam, which is false and insulting. What little of value that exists in this article should be moved to some article about religion in Gaza, or about Islam in Gaza, with a neutral title. Zerotalk 02:30, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. But agree that the present title does need changing. The best answer is to delete the article, and move the material elsewhere.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 08:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Johnmcintyre1959, please provide a rationale for your position. Zero0000, have you looked at the Talibanization article? The only full example it provides is of the Gaza strip. The article very specifically states "the process where other religious groups or movements come to follow or imitate the strict practices of the Taliban." If a person were to visit an article named "Talibanization of the Gaza Strip" and be confused, then they should continue reading the article and become disabused of their confusion as they are already confused and the appropriately named "Talibanization of the Gaza Strip" article would function to eliminate that pre-existing confusion. Such a renamed article would not be the source of confusion, but its most appropriate remedy. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also http://mobile.hudson.org/content/researchattachments/attachment/1308/schanzer_vol9.pdf shows a clear academic use of such terminology in recent scholarship. Unless either of you (or someone else) can provide counter-citations, or alternatively provide a concrete plan for where to disperse the content, I think we should proceed with the renaming. Also see https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22talibanization+of+gaza%22 and https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22islamization+of+gaza%22 0nlyth3truth (talk) 22:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I based my comments on a quick survey of what's out there. Wikipedia is not a source for determining common usage. I agree that the term is spreading, but as yet it is new to most people. Titles should be informative, and I don't think we should use new words in titles just to educate people as to their meaning. It is also clear that the word is generally used as a term of abuse: it expresses a negative opinion about some social process. That's another reason we should not use it in titles. Zerotalk 22:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's do the quick survey. Googling the term reveals the following in the first 5 pages of results (49 total links): 16 uses for Pakistan, 5 Afghanistan, 4 India, 4 Gaza, 3 SE Asia, 1 America, 1 Iraq, 1 Nigeria, 1 Xinjiang, 13 N/A (definitions, aggregators, tags, etc). This makes: 21 Pakistan&Afghanistan, 15 others. You aren't mistaken, but it's not as if uses for Pakistan&Afghanistan in any way overwhelm uses for other areas. I'm interested in knowing what quick survey you performed. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 22:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, whether it is a term of abuse or negativity is irrelevant in light of the fact that it's false. You can't Islamize something that's already Muslim, like the Gaza Strip is. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 23:15, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As it seems all of you oppose this name change, I am starting the process to delete the article as Islamization is an anachronism utterly unfit to describe the political changes currently happening in the Gaza Strip. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 23:08, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Islamization is the widely used term for BOTH the initial conversion of societies and regions to Islam, and the process of promoting stricter interpretations of Islam within a Muslim society. Talibanization is a neologism, quite a new one, and still associated mostly with Afghanistan. Let's not push neologisms onto long-standing articles.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I had never heard this word used except with regard to Afghanistan, and I thought that because I was not familiar with it, it must not be in widespread use. I dashed off the above, then started to wonder, then started to google. The word turns out to be widely used in this sense, in mainstream sources like the New York Times, [4] less used in leftist sources like The Guardian, [5], but more centrist papers , Washington Post, [6] use it frequently, and, in fact, it does seem to disambigulate the 2 senses of Islamizaiton, ie, the the draconian impositions of Islamism vs. mainstream Islam. Because it has that specificity, I support the title change.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:11, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
E.M.Gregory, thank you for making an effort to maintain rigorous scholarship. I think I have a better proposal below for how to rename the article, and also any other articles referencing modern radicalization as Islamization. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 01:27, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's highly disingenuous of you to characterize Islamism as a "more observant" variant of Islam than what Gazans have historically practiced. If you understand why that is disingenuous, you will understand why I would rename the article. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 17:45, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 12 November 2015

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Move request withdrawn by nominator. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 20:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Islamization of the Gaza Strip → Islamism in the Gaza Strip – "Islamization" is an imprecise term that refers primarily to the original spread of Islam but also to modern religio-political developments. "Talibanization" may be an appropriate substitute, but a prior proposition in that vein proved unpopular. I suggest avoiding both terms by using "Islamism in the Gaza Strip" which is very precise and draws a clear distinction from ancient religious developments, and modern plausibly ethnocentric and/or bigoted conflations. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 01:21, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please see as well my comment at the Islamization talk page. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Islamization is not an imprecise term, it is a term that has dual meanings. This article is about one of those meanings, and the topics it addresses (imposing dress codes, banning books, driving out Christians) make a coherent article about a region being forcibly driven to specific standards: Islamizaiton. The proposed title, Islamism in the Gaza Strip, implies an article about the origins, rise, and prospects of Islamism. A different topic entirely.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:43, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Islamism in the Gaza Strip implies an article about the origins, rise, and prospects of Islamism." No. That is most certainly not true unless you mean "...about the origins, rise, and prospects of Islamism in the Gaza Strip" ...which is exactly what this article is about. Also, having two or more meanings satisfies the definition of "imprecise." 0nlyth3truth (talk) 03:26, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I already expressed my opinion above that the present title is just fine. No need for repeat rename proposals. Debresser (talk) 11:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - pretty much dead on for a nomination statement. Talibanization was unsuitable, for any number of reasons, but the topic of this article is imposing an Islamist character over the governance of Gaza. Islamization isnt, despite what one user thinks, what that means. nableezy - 21:17, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is that this article is not about Islamism, but about its result: the Islamization of the Gaza strip. Debresser (talk) 15:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Islamization does not mean what you think it means. nableezy - 00:43, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I can say the same, since your argument is proof by assertion. Debresser (talk) 18:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You have a point. Rather had, as of now. See for example here. Islamization is the process of conversion of the inhabitants of an area, through whatever means, to Islam. The imposition of Sharia is not necessarily a part of that, thats more about establishing an Islamist state. nableezy - 22:32, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see in that source that the definition includes not only submitting and converting, but also cultural expressions like names and language. Both take place in this case: the tenets of Islam are enforced, and cultural and personal life enslaved to Islam. Fits the definition perfectly, IMHO. Debresser (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. In my opinion, this article is about the gradual Islamization process, not about the much wider topic of Islamism ("Political Islam") in Gaza. The term "Islamization" is used in many of the reliable sources cited in this article. Marokwitz (talk) 09:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It should simply be renamed to Islamism in the Gaza Strip. This article's scope does not appear to be about how the Gaza Strip gradually became almost completely inhabited by Muslims or changing churches into mosques. The article is about the strict implementation of Hamas' version of Sharia, in the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip was already 99% Muslim long before this process began so "Islamization" is rather confusing. There are some sources that use the term "Islamization" in the article, but there are far more scholarly sources that use the term "Islamism" instead, which is a much more common and recognizable term that deals with this socio-political process. The article could also be expanded to include the history of the Muslim Brotherhood (from which Hamas originated) and the Salafist movement in the Gaza Strip and the increasing Muslim conservatism in Gazan society over the decades. This is the most proper route for the article to take. --Al Ameer (talk) 04:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obviously, no consensus has been reached. I believe my comments 1#Premodern_vs._Modern_Islamization.2C_Unfortunate_Scholarship.2C_and_Talibanization here successfully capture why. I am withdrawing my own attempt at changing these titles, but I encourage interested individuals to contribute to a longer-lasting resolution at the Project Islam talk page. 0nlyth3truth (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reliability of Xinhau and WND (a message to the IP, because they have no set talk page)

[edit]

Xinhau is not a reliable source. It's a press agency in a country with one of the worst press freedom records in the world, and therefore can't meet the standards of fact checking and accuracy required for RSs. WorldNetDaily which you also added as a source, seems to spout all kinds of conspiracy nonsense and therefore is also not a reliable source. Please remove the sections sourced to these outlets that you have reverted back in. Brustopher (talk) 18:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The argument against Xinhau is hardly an argument, IMHO. Debresser (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously? WP:RS says Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A source from a country with a false and censored press can not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Also does this mean you accept that WND is not a reliable source? Brustopher (talk) 16:57, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1. All press is censored to some degree, either by government organs or simply by the editors themselves. That doesn't mean all press is not reliable. 2. If a censor removes a certain piece of information, that does not mean that the rest of the article is not true any more. 3. I agree that it is all a matter of degree and form of censorship, but the simple fact that a source is from China does not mean its information is incorrect. 4. I have no opinion on WND. Debresser (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RSN it is then... Brustopher (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Islamism in the Gaza Strip. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:26, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

[edit]

Islamism in the Gaza Strip → Islamic extremmism in the Gaza Strip –

The article titles should be in conformity with other wikipedia pages. Jihadist extremism in the United States Islamism in the United Kingdom Islamism in the Gaza Strip Islamism and Islamic terrorism in the Balkans should either be changed or this article title should be changed. --Vimaljoseph34260 (talk) 07:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily, because the articles are about different things, and Islamism in the Gaza Strip already matches your UK example, and that Balkans title goes against current Wikipedia naming conventions.
If you're saying Islamism and Islamic terrorism in the Balkans should be changed? then I agree.
MWQs (talk) MWQs (talk) 16:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2007 coup

[edit]

It says:

"However, Jonathan Schanzer wrote that in two years following the 2007 coup, the Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization[...]"

Which coup? The (long) source document speaks of a 2007 coup leading to "Talibanization", but Hamas won the 2006 election; Fatah attempted a coup against Hamas, but the coup was unsuccessful in Gaza. I think that sentence in the source is at best confusing, and shouldn't be relied on in the article. MrDemeanour (talk) 10:39, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@MrDemeanour, I mostly agree. Locally in Gaza they kicked out the Abbas run PA, in the 2007 Battle of Gaza? But it's misleading to frame it in a way that sounds like that was the situation in the whole country.
Does it still say something like that?
MWQs (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Ramzi Shaheen" and "Ramzi Abu Hilao"

[edit]

Could "Ramzi Shaheen" and "Ramzi Abu Hilao" (a spokesperson and a pool hall owner) be the same person? People often have long names that get abbreviated variably or alternate names. MWQs (talk) 16:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talibanization

[edit]

Why is this a heading in this article? There is no functional difference between conservative Islamic laws and the ideology of the Taliban, but this heading is there. I would argue it is there to give a scary buzzword that westerns will understand to scare them. 2001:1C00:B06:5E00:6065:1BA5:A73F:72E6 (talk) 00:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Islamism_in_the_Gaza_Strip&oldid=1257103952"