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Archive 1Archive 2

From the former Iraqi Kurdistan talk page

I think we should make this a redirect to Kurdistan (or the regional government). We used to have two articles, one for Southern Kurdistan and one for Kurdistan Autonomous Region, and it proved to be unworkable – there was too much overlap. On the other hand, Kurdistan has a lot of material specific to Iraqi Kurdistan. QuartierLatin 1968 18:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi QuartierLatin,

Southern Kurdistan is the same Iraqi Kurdistan and it covers a larger area than Kurdistan Autonomous Region does. I think it is a good idea to redirect it to Kurdistan but if it is possible to the part of the article which is about Southern Kurdistan (i.e. middle of the page); is it possible? Thank You. --Diyako Talk + 19:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean, something like #REDIRECT [[Kurdistan#Iraqi Kurdistan]] ? I think that would be a tremendous idea, but I'm not sure if it works. We could always try it and see.
Part of me agrees with you, Iraqi Kurdistan is a broad area with centuries of history which extends as far as Kirkuk and stretches southeast along the Iranian border for a long way, etc, while the Autonomous Region is just a political entity established a few years ago over part of that area. On the other hand, much of what we would say about the one thing would also apply to the other -- it's impossible to talk about (for example) culture in the Autonomous Region without the same comments applying outside those boundaries. And since the Autonomous Region claims Kirkuk and wants to expand its boundaries to the rest of the Kurdish region... QuartierLatin1968 The worker's flag is deepest red,/It shrouded oft our martyred dead 01:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The same can be said about Iran. Political Iran is not the actual boundries of Iran. This can be said about Albania too. Political Albania is not the historical boundaries of the actual area and so on. It is a part of world evolution. Boundaries change.

Neutrality

This Revolution was the greatest Kurdish revolution and the most conclusive in the history of the Kurds, which ended as a result of the treasonous Algeria’s agreement between Iraq and Iran.

This really needs re-wording, as does a lot of the article, other than that, the article is looking quite nice :) - FrancisTyers 13:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Which articles should have the tag 'Category:Kurdistan'

All, please see the discussion at Category talk:Kurdistan (Which articles should have the tag 'Category:Kurdistan'), and weigh-in if you like. Thanks, --Moby 14:05, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

KRG or Kurdistan

Is this article about KRG or Iraqi-Kurdistan? Chaldean 03:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Iraqi Kurdistan is a region comprising of cities, mountains, rivers etc.. while KRG is comprising only of politicians, parliament, Police, etc.
The article discusses both. Jalalarbil 11:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
But it can't - those two are totally different topics. The article's title "Iraqi Kurdistan" refers to a region while Kurdistan Regional Government refers to a much smaller region. Which one is it? Chaldean 13:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Kurdistan Regional Government is not a region, but a government.Jalalarbil 14:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
A Government over a region. For example, Germany is the region under the Germany goverment. I dont know, maybe I'm making this issue too confusing. Chaldean 14:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Exactly. The Kurdistan Region is the lands and cities, such as: Slémani, Pirmam etc, but the KRG is: Nechirvan Barzani, Parliamnet etc.

Rename to Kurdistan Regional Government

Since this is about the Kurdistan Regional Government it might as well carry that title. Objections? -- Cat chi? 08:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it's about the region governed by the Kurdistan Regional Government, as well as the government. We store our article about Wales at Wales, not at Welsh Assembly Government. (The latter article exists, but it's exclusively about the cabinet members and the government as a corporation.) If at some point this article grows to the point where a separate article about the cabinet and government is needed, then by all means we should revive the Kurdistan Regional Government article. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 15:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer to have a separate article about the Kurdistan Regional Government, and to have most of this information transferred there. I agree however that we should keep this article here - a bit like the difference between Wales and National Assembly for Wales articles. AndrewRT - Talk 20:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I dont think that would be wise. There is a Kurdistan Regional Government (Wales equavalent) and a Kurdistan Regional Government assembly (National Assembly for Wales equavalent) (they have a parliment of somesort). "Iraqi Kurdistan" is the contraversial name merely to imply occupation in other parts of Kurdistan. This is like saying Wales is a part of eastern Ireland (granted its a bad example)...
I really want to break the kurdistan pov fork chain. Syrian Kurdistan was deleted for being a pov fork, same should happen to Iranian Kurdistan and Turkish Kurdistan (more like lists of kurdish revolts).
Let me put it another way:
  • If we are going to write about a proposed kurdistan country I am all in for that.
  • If we are going to write about the existing regional entitiy, I am all in for that.
  • If we are going to write about the geo-cultural region, I'd be ok with that too.
  • If we are going to write about kurdish revolts, I am fine with that.
  • If we are going to write about kurdish history, I am fine with that.
  • If we are going to write about kurds in general in a specified region I am fine with that too.
  • I am however against doing all of the above in one page as it is done now.
-- Cat chi? 21:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. This page is happy where it is. The term is in wide scholarly use [1]. You are welcome to apply standard MOS procedure to sections. For example split out some information into Kurdistan Regional Government. In fact, I'll do that now. - FrancisTyers · 22:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Done. - FrancisTyers · 22:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The flag, coat of arms, and practicaly everything else in the infobox should go there too. No region should have a flag or coat of arms unless its a state or a country. No other geographic region has such info. Governorates certainly dont belong to this "mere geographic region". History section is a dupe of a number of articles. A regional history cant start with ww1. This should either have its own article (like "history of the kurds" or something similar).
We do not and should not have an article on every scholar term. "Kurdistan" is a fine article for information regarding "Iraqi Kurdistan" and other "Kurdistan"s. After removing information irrelevant to a "region" article, we can merge it to Kurdistan
-- Cat chi? 00:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
What is the objective of the article? What is it explaining? -- Cat chi? 00:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Cool it, Cool Cat. There's no use gunning for a quick fix; you may be reverted just as quick. Let's work on building consensus first. I want to talk about just the infobox first: "No region should have a flag or coat of arms unless its a state or a country. No other geographic region has such info." This is easily falsifiable. Sardinia (an autonomous region of Italy), Karelia (an autonomous republic of Russia), Chubut (a province of Argentina), Saskatchewan (a province of Canada), and the Western Cape (a province of South Africa) all have infoboxes, and every single one of them shows either a flag or a coat of arms – or both when available. Not one of these is "a state or a country".
As with these other articles, the point of this article is to describe a bit of the history, politics, demographics, economics, and geography of a region which does have a legal existence and personality today and about which Wikipedia users may wish to know something. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 03:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I have no intention of cooling something that isn't even warm, I am not in conflict with anyone. I am mearly acting in what I feel will make wikpedia a more neutral place.
I have absolutely no objection for an article to explain the current political entity in northern Iraq (Kurdistan Regional Government). I do not object in anyway to articles that explain the general (controversial) region known as Kurdistan. I do not object articles explaining Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and etc (Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Iran, Kurds in Iraq...). I however object the existance of articles about Iraqi Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan. I believe they exist as POV forks. I'll post my reasoning below in bullets.
  • Iraqi Kurdistan
    • The regional government is often referanced controverisaly as "Iraqi Kurdistan" (correct me if I am wrong)
    • The official accepted title is Kurdistan Regional Government. (correct me if I am wrong)
    • Deducing above, I believe it would be prudent to use the official full name rather than the contraversial and unoffical one. It would be more logical.
  • Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan
    • These are not political entities (defacto or not). (correct me if I am wrong)
    • Turkish Kurdistan seems to be more of a list of Kurdish revolts and history than anything. Infact the entier article is about general history of the kurds and nothing else but additional trivia which are barely if at all encyclopedic. (correct me if I am wrong)
    • As for iranian kurdistan, article is also strictly about history going as far back as the 12 century. Some random referances to "human rights" issues as well which should be in Kurds in Iran. (correct me if I am wrong)
  • Suggestion
    • Detailed information about Kurdish history should be confined to articles explaining the kurdish history. Take Europe article for instance. It does not give info on every skirmish that had happened in europe. Nor is the topics covered confined to the history, politics, and etc of one ethnicity, race or religion.
    • Detailed information about Kuridsh people should be confined to articles about Kurdish people. Again see Europe. There is a diverse culture section mostly one paragraph per culture with a more detailed explanation on linked articles.
    • The contraversial region Kurdistan should be treated just like Europe and should not be confined to Kurds. Kurdistan should not provide a hole lot of information but rather brief introduction to related topics just like Europe.
    • I am puzzled what Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan artilles supposed to explain. Why do they exist?
-- Cat chi? 14:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Although I don't agree with Cool Cat's logic/reasoning (or his spelling :-) j/k, Cool Cat), I do agree that his suggestions are valid. There is too much Nationalism in Wikipedia and Nationalism doesn't lend itself to neutrality. "Kurdistan" as a region/state/political entity is controversial at best. The Iraqi Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan and Turkish Kurdistan articles are blatantly obvious POV forks. The general region claimed as "Kurdistan" is home to many people groups other than the Kurds. There are already individual articles for Kurdish people, Kurdish culture, etc. All that info should remain there. Articles about such topics as the "Iraqi Kurdish Region" should have a neutral name, deal specifically with the details of current state of the region: demographics, form of governance, econimic situation, notable political considerations, borders, geography, etc. and not contain Kurdish Nationalist propaganda.--WilliamThweatt 17:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Iraqi Kurdistan is different than KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government). In the current article, there is a large section about the history of the region in 20th century. From 1920 to 1991, there was no KRG. As for the William's objection, I have to remind him that the term Iraqi Kurdistan appears in the Iraqi Constitution which was ratified in September 2005. This was the main reason to change the name of article from Kurdish Autonomous Region to Iraqi Kurdistan. Please read my discussions with QuartierLatin1968. For Turkish Kurdistan, the term appears in the Encyclopaedia of Islam here [2].Heja Helweda 18:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the "Iraqi Kurdistan" thing in the Iraqi constitution proveked a level of outrage domesticaly in Iraq. More so diplomaticaly among many countries such as Turkey. There is no mention of this in the article or anywhere on wikipedia for that matter and was not even part of the renaming discussion. Furthermore the rename was entirely inaproporate.
Kurdish Autonomous Region or KAR is a historic entity that lasted a decade plus. There must be a seperate article about it as the current political entity and KAR as they are nothing alike . Kurdish Autonomous Region had two main rivaling factions for power among others. It being abolished/renamed/restructured/united is entierly irrelevant.
I'd like to ask for one clarification. Is Iraqi Kurdistan a cultural region or a political entity in the body of the federal Iraqi structure. If it is so what is Kurdistan Regional Government then? If it isnt a political entity, what is the coat of arms and flag doing here?
While verifiable (as stated above), "Iraqi Kurdistan" is not a neutral term. By all means all this above makes terms "Turkish Kurdistan" and "Iranian Kurdistan" entierly inaproporate imlying political existance along with the Iraqi counterpart.
-- Cat chi? 19:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to add that if we are going to talk about Kurdistan as a term it should be more like Macedonia (terminology). Please take special care that article has 96 sources. Also take notice of the difercity of the sources from different points of view, culture, and languages.
Infact Kurdistan should be a disambiguation pace just like Macedonia.
-- Cat chi? 19:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary edit point

Cool Cat wrote: "The regional government is often referanced controverisaly as "Iraqi Kurdistan" (correct me if I am wrong)" and "The official accepted title is Kurdistan Regional Government. (correct me if I am wrong)". You are wrong. The Kurdistan Regional Government refers to itself as the Kurdistan Regional Government. It refers to the region it governs as Kurdistan (or Iraqi Kurdistan to be avoid confusion with other regions, such as the Iranian province of Kordestan). You can find any number of examples of this usage at the KRG website: the page "About the Kurdistan Regional Government" refers to the KRG when describing the structure and institutions of the state, while the page "A Brief History Of Iraqi Kurdistan : Position on Federalism,Declaration of the Iraqi Kurdistan National Assembly" talks about Kurdistan and the Kurds when talking about the region and its dominant ethnic group. If we distinguish between governments and the regions they govern, you can perceive that the Iraqi Kurdistan region has certain geographic, cultural, historic, demographic, economic and other features which are well within the scope of this article. Now, if you feel the history section (for example) is biased so as to emphasize Kurdish nationalist preoccupations, by all means, why not add information to correct the imbalance. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 04:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I see. I'll give a similar example then to emphacise my point.
When compared to similar articles, Iraqi Kurdistan doesnt fit anywhere. Article is unorganised and confusing.
Basicaly all I am asking is juggling the information off of this article to more approporate locations...
-- Cat chi? 10:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

What does 'arbitrary edit point' mean?

I'm honestly not sure whether you have paid any attention to what I wrote above, or had a look at the KRG website, so I won't waste my time repeating the same thing. Perhaps, however, if you're a visual learner, an illustrative table might help:

Regions governed Governments Areas included within region
Wales Welsh Assembly Government area of the thirteen traditional counties of Monmouthshire, Glamorgan, Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire, Cardiganshire, Brecknockshire, Radnorshire, Montgomeryshire, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Merionethshire, Caernarvonshire, and Anglesey
Southern Sudan,
'New Sudan' 		Government of Southern Sudan (GoSS) the territory of the former provinces of Bahr el Ghazal, Equatoria and Upper Nile
Bavaria Bavarian State Government (Bayerische Staatsregierung) the area of the kingdom of Bavaria, less the Rheinpfalz
Iraqi Kurdistan,
'Kurdistan' 		Kurdistan Regional Government Iraq north of the Green Line, including all of the governorates of Suleymaniya, Erbil, and Dohuk (de jure and de facto) and sections of Ninawa, Ta'mim, and Diyala (de facto)

The point being that regions and their governments aren't the same. They're not always even called by the same name.

The Iraqi Kurdistan region does have defined boundaries. In fact, they check your passport when you cross those boundaries, from what I hear.[3][4]

Comparisons with Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan are completely unhelpful, because Turkish Kurdistan has no legal existence, defined boundaries, or constitutionally recognized autonomy, while the Iranian Kurdistan province is only a (non-autonomous) part of the informal region of 'Kurdistan' in Iran. It's much more fruitful to compare Iraqi Kurdistan with other regions that actually do have autonomy of one form or another.

I'm trying to follow your Anatolia analogy, but it just doesn't make sense to me. History of Turkey is a disambiguation page: it points you to History of the Turkish people, History of the Republic of Turkey, and History of Anatolia, among others. We are, however, in agreement that information concerning the political history of the KRG should be at Kurdistan Regional Government until it grows worthy of a separate history of the Kurdistan Regional Government article.

Your ideas for changing, moving, or reorganizing the articles on Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan sound fine, but what relevance do they have here? QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 20:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrary edit point creates the "edit" link at a conviniant location so that I dont have to scroll up and down. I really think it is prudent to break long discussions so it stays managable.
Let me elaborate my stand point. Treat each bullet as a seperate issue.
  • For the History of Turkey link, what I ment was History of the Republic of Turkey link.
  • This article is like Wales region being discussed in a "British Ireland" article (I just made that up). Name is somewhat problematic no matter how one looks at it.
  • Anatolia anology points an example of a geographic region. Geographic regions by definition can't have flags nor coat of arms nor political borders as they would be political regions if they do so.
  • The Iraqi Kurdistan you mention is the claim by the Kurdistan Regional Government. Kurdistan itself still has a disputed set of undefined borders. You can google (image search) for "Kurdistan" or "Kurdistan map" to find inconsistant maps from various sources.
  • Historicaly speaking an Iraqi Kurdistan officaly existed as of last year. Any information prior should not be presented here. Only information since the Operation Iraqi Freedom and the aftermath should be present here. Information about the decade of defacto existance prior for instance should be presented in Kurdish Autonomous Region article. KAR was very different from KRG after all.
Removing/moving KRG data and unnecesary history data leaves almost no content to this article. And remaining content is better off being in Kurdistan than here. My reasoning is based on treating Iraqi Kurdistan as a geographic region and not a political one.
-- Cat chi? 21:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I have updated the Infobox, added more information to it and also the coding for this new Infobox is much easier. The old one was just a table made into an Infobox, but this new one is the right Infobox for this article, compare them side by side the old one and my new one. And this new Infobox looks much better than the old one. Comments and suggestions are welcomed. --D.Kurdistani 03:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Shouldn't the Infobox be at the Kurdistan Regional Government page? Chaldean 02:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont think so. But I think the article Kurdistan Regional Government be renamed to Politics of Kurdistan Regional Government, or similar names such as Politics of Kurdistan-Iraq.
Moreover, I believe that a more accurate title for this article is Kurdistan-Iraq, with a hyphen. This is exactly what KRG officials use. Awat 12:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't like this name Iraqi Kurdistan Region that I put on the Infobox, personally I believe it should be Kurdistan - Iraq like Awat said, but in the Iraqi constitution it is officially known as the Iraqi Kurdistan Region. Until it is officially changed by the Kurdish authorities in Northern Iraq, we will keep it that way. --D.Kurdistani 08:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually 'Kurdistan - Iraq' is what today Kurdish authority are insisting on instead of 'Iraqi Kurdistan'. We can for instance refer to Adnan Mufti's recent explanation of this title. moreover the new draft of Kurdistan constituation has a passage in its introdiction which explicitly explains usage of 'Kurdistan - Iraq' from a linguistic, historic and political point of view. Awat 13:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. This article needs to be broken apart. I am not sure what is the intended topic here but insignificant stuff like the anafal campaign should not even have a mention here. Nor does the infobox belong here, this article is about the geo-cultural area along with Turkish Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan. -- Cat chi? 03:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

New army

What is the new army they are talking about in media: the Armed Forces of Kurdistan? Should this be mentioned in the article? Samrendshere 00:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That'll be the peshmergas, I presume. There's a section on the military in this article. If I'm right, they're not really new ... which media report are you referring to? Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Kurdistan-Iraq

I read in the article that, official name of Northern Iraq Kurdish federal region is Kurdistan-Iraq not Iraqi Kurdistan, we should also use this name. For example, for Burma article's name is Myanmar, which is the official name of Burma.Ayasi 23:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Your right Iraqi Kurdistan is not the official name of the Kurdish Region of northern Iraq. I have done some research to find the official name of the region as stated by the Kurdish and Iraqi authorities and the official name as stated in the Iraqi constitution. I came up with many different names. In the Iraqi constitution it say’s Kurdistan Region, on the official webpage or the Kurdistan Regional Government I found two names for the region, Kurdistan – Iraq and Kurdistan Region – Iraq. There are many other names like Iraqi Kurdistan Region, Iraqi Kurdistan, Kurdistan Region and some others. If someone could find a direct link to a official government webpage or some other reliable source stating what the official name is then I say we go ahead and change the name. --D.Kurdistani 08:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The visa stamps from Arbil airport say "Republic of Iraq - Iraq Kurdistan Region - Arbil International Airport"--Vindheim 10:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Protest of Turkey firing artillery across the border

I found this news story "Iraq protests Turkey's cross-border shelling" from Sunday, June 10, 2007 but I'm not sure what article it should be included in. Seems pretty note-worthy its at http://www.sundaytimes.lk/070610/International/i503.html It begins with "The Iraqi Foreign Ministry today issued a formal protest to Turkey over the cross-border shelling into northern Iraq."

--Wowaconia 13:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Article to be broken apart

Events that happened prior to regions recognition should go to Kurdistan Autonomous Region, the defacto entity that existed prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. I'll do this myself if no one else volunteers. -- Cat chi? 03:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, the anafal campaign is part of the history section of this article. Moving it does not make any sense, and creating a different article for Kurdistan Autonomous Region prior to the US invasion of Iraq does not make sense either. Not much has changed besides being recognized as an official federal region by the central government so why make all these changes? --D.Kurdistani 08:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Think of it this way, the ottoman wars are not described as a part of "Turkey" but rather "Ottoman Empire", anything happened before the establishment of "Iraqi Kurdistan" belongs to the respective article of the past entity or entities -- Cat chi? 14:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Iraq is a whole!

I don't know this country! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by StANDby007 (talk • contribs) 11:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

This article is mixing Kurdistan region with Iraqi Kurdistan it should be only about Iraqi Kurdistan since the title is Iraqi Kurdistan.--Aziz1005 16:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
First off, this isn't a country, it's a state. On their visas, it says "Iraqi Kurdistan" and the "Republic of Iraq".
I don't think Northern Iraq has recognition yet. Neither de jure nor de facto. Why doesn't it clearly stated in the article? Deliogul (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph states that the article concerns a " semi-autonomous, federally recognized political entity located in northern Iraq." Perfectly clear to me, and also correct.--Vindheim (talk) 21:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is crap

Or to use more academic language, it's not internally consistent with regard to spelling of place names even within the same paragraph 82.110.248.146 (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Arbil derived from Latin Urbilium?

"Its capital is the city of Arbil derived from the old latin Urbilium"..didnt "Arbil" derive from the ancient aramaic (which predates latin) name for the city "Arbela" (Arba-Elu meaning for Gods) ILLeSt (talk) 18:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbil nor Kurds have nothing to with Latin, and yes the region was dominated by the ancient aramaic language, since it was assyria —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annabananahana (talk • contribs) 15:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Kifri under KRG

Kifri is already under KRG, acording to the new konstitution, are KRG claiming the district of Khaniqin and Mandali in the Province of Diyala —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.181.127 (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Demographics!

The demographics of this article are incorrect in my opinion. 95% being Kurdish makes no sense to me. Assyrians and Turkoman make up about 5-7% of Iraq, and majority of the turkoman and especially Assyrians live in Northern Iraq. How can it be possible that they are still only 5% of Iraqi Kurdistan?

from CIA Factbook, Assyrians and Turkomans are 5% or Iraq, that makes their population at about 1.5 million, now lets assume that 500 000 live outside of the borders of Iraqi Kurdistan, that would still leave 1 million Assyrians and Turkomans in Northern Iraq (which is a good estimate in my opinion) and that would make Assyrian/Turkoman population at about 15-20% of Iraqi Kurdistan.

Please provide a source of the 95% claim of this article or remove it -- Malik Danno (talk) 16:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

1- Population is estimated 7 million on the side bar but is said to be 5-6 million in the Demographics section. 2- There is no mention of Feyli Kurds who are Shia and are estimated to be 2-3 millions. 88.97.164.254 (talk) 07:01, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

90% is correct in my opinion but that Assyrian and turkmans make up 15 to 20% is to mouch —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.181.127 (talk) 12:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC) 85.227.181.127 (talk) 12:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)shnoy xhoshewist

WHAT TO CALL IT?

Iraqi Kurdistan refers to that part of northern Iraq where ethnic Kurds predominate. The Kurdistan Region refers to that part of Iraqi Kurdistan that is administered by the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG). The problem is located in the dispute over the official boundary of the Kurdistan Region that was to be determined in accordance with Article 140 of the Constitution of Iraq by the end of 2007.

The so-called 'green line' was actually the 'Saddam Line' that cut Iraqi Kurdistan almost in half. It was established in the dark of night in October 1991 by the Iraqi military erecting dirt barriers. Checkpoints that acted like border control stations were also constructed. It was not mandated by the UN as some in the mainstream press have reported. This line ceased to exist with the overthrow of the regime of Saddam Hussein in April 2003.

The Saddam Line is not to be confused with the no-fly zone that was established earlier in 1991 by US-led coalition forces. Contrary to some news reports, it was not established by the UN. The no-fly zone did not cover all predominately Kurdish areas. Many were south of the line. Strangely, the no-fly zone included Mosul but not Suleimaniyah.

The so-called "safe haven" was actually only a part of Duhok governorate (province) from where most of some 500,000 Kurdish refugees in Turkey had fled from. Though double this number had fled to Iran - some one million, no safe haven was specifically established for them. They returned anyway.

All this leaves open the question of what is a Kurd in an area where Kurds predominate. The word "Kurd" refers to ethnicity and is not to be confused with religion. It denotes the primary culture of an area. There are Muslim Kurds, Christian Kurds, Jewish Kurds, Yezidi Kurds, Shabak Kurds, and Kakayee Kurds, etc., all in Iraqi Kurdistan.

Some Christians do not like being called Christian Kurds; some assert the are ethnically Assyrian and some go so far as to say the area is Assyria and not Kurdistan. Christians in Kurdistan have a hard time deciding what to call themselves. Some say "Asyrian", others ChaldoAssyrian, others AssyroChaldean, others Assyrians Chaldeans Syriacs, others Syriani, others Ashuri. Most Christians in Kurdistan speak Syriac, a derivative of Aramaic spoken by Jesus Christ.

There are also Armenians in Iraqi Kurdistan who certainly are not Kurds. And they are not Assyrians, Chaldeans, or Syriacs. They are Armenian by ethnicity and by religion, the first (only?) ethnic group to become a religion.

Yezidis and Shabaks speak Kurdish, their mother language and the language they use to pray. Same with the Kakayee who are a very small group. Some Yezidis and Shabaks assert, however, that they are not Kurds, perhaps because they are trying to avoid be drowned among the Muslim Kurds and prefer to maintain a separate identity.

All Jewish Kurds migrated to Israel by the 1950s. Some have come to visit their ancestral homes. Jews, and Christians, in Kurdistan had virtually no problem with Muslim Kurds. Kurdistan is one of the few places in the world where there were rural Jewish villages living peacefully among Muslim villages. A former Israeli defense minister is a Jewish Kurd from Iraqi Kurdistan.

There are also ethnic Arabs and Turkmens in Kurdistan; they certainly are not Kurds.

Instead of calling the people of Kurdistan "Kurds", perhaps it would be more acceptable to all concerned to call them "Kurdistanis" - people of Kurdistan - regardless of their ethnicity or religion. The name of the area is unlikely to change, but the people may differ in their backgrounds or whatever they prefer to call themselves.

I served with the UN in Iraqi Kurdistan in 1991 and personally witnessed the establishment, or separation, of the Kurdistan Region by the regime of Saddam Hussein. I am personally familiar with the no-fly zone and the specificity of the "safe haven". I was there in May 1992 when regional elections were held and when the Iraqi Kurdistan Parliament (IKP, what it is called today) and the Kurdistan Regional Governt (KRG) were formed during the summer of 1992. Clarrysf (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)Hewleri

Monarchy?! someone's been screwing with this 86.14.106.237 (talk) 05:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Demographics

It currently states that "Most Kurds live in the large cities such as Arbil and Sulaymania". But if you add up the population of all 8 cities listed in the previous table, it is much less than half of the claimed total population. And it's hard to argue that all of those 8 cities are "large cities" given than some of them have less than 1/10th the population of Arbil and Sulaymania. Given the information about total population and city populations in this section, this sentence seems both incorrect and unnecessary. So I am going to remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douglaswyatt (talk • contribs) 03:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Safety

Apparently "it is the most stable and secure region of Iraq where not a single coalition soldier or foreigner has been killed, wounded or kidnapped since the 2003 invasion of Iraq" - but the government website can hardly be considered a fair source, especially in the light of reports that the kurdistan government may be attacking and killing journalists, attacks on whom have risen sharply since the election of the new regime.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YThjZjBiNmIzZmJmYmJiNzcxM2RlZTg5MzVlM2VlOTg=

Perhaps because the victims are not foreigners but local journalists the statement might hold true, but it is nevertheless incredibly POV and does not represent the reality of Kurdistan as a very corrupt, unstable place. Does this deserve its own section in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.23.57.168 (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

This is confusing

I see how confusing this can be having so many terms about Kurdistan and its different part and having several articles about it and its several parts whit its several names.

Kurdistan is a geographical area in Middle East. It is in SE Anatolia, NW part of Zagros Mountains and N Mesopotamia. In Southern Kurdistan there is a Kurdish Autonomous Region with its own regional government. Terms like Iraqi Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan etc. doesn't sound good. Better to only call it "Southern Kurdistan", "Northern Kurdistan", "Eastern Kurdistan" etc. And it would be better if Kurdistan Regional Government called it self "Regional Government of Southern Kurdistan". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahatma2008 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I would love it if we called it south Kurdistan. I just don't think turkey Iran and Syria would be too happy about it. 188.221.24.172 (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Inquery

SInce this is not a nation how can it have either an anthem or capital? -- Cat chi? 02:06, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Without getting in to the vexed question of how to define "nationhood", many non-independent entities have both anthems and capitals. Wales has its capital at Cardiff and a national anthem, Hen Wlad fy Nhadau. All of the US states have capitals; most also have anthems ('state songs'). The Basque Country, Catalonia, Scotland, Quebec and the Canadian provinces, the German Länder, the isle of Åland, New Caledonia, Tatarstan and all the other autonomous republics in Russia – all of these have local autonomy with various attributes and symbols of sovereignty (such as flags, anthems, coats of arms, constitutions) without being independent. This is the de facto state of affairs for Iraqi Kurdistan right now. QuartierLatin1968 15:11, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Don't forget Taiwan. → JarlaxleArtemis 00:18, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Also don't forget that outside powers such as the USA and Britian have used these peoples ideals as tools of manipulation on the world scene.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course Kurdistan IS a nation and HAS a capital as well as a heart and a long memory! Kurds in Iran and elsewhere look to Iraqi Kurdistan as a great role model and stonghold of the culture and language. It is time some from other nearby nations accepted this and treat the Kurdish people with respect as they will try to treat others. This is hard for a people with few friends, long forgotten and let down back in the first part of the 20th century! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.182.70 (talk) 17:07, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The name of the article is inaccurate

It should be Kurdistan Region or Iraqi Kurdistan. It is mentioned as Kurdistan Region in the Iraqi Constitution, not Kurdish Autonomous Region. The latter was only used during the Ba'ath regime in the 70's and 80's. Here is the reference to the name of the region in the new constitution of Iraq:

CHAPTER ONE: REGIONS

Article 113:

First: This Constitution shall approbate the region of Kurdistan and its existing regional and federal authorities, at the time this constitution comes into force.

Article 137:

Legislation enacted in the region of Kurdistan since 1992 shall remain in force, and decisions issued by the government of the region of Kurdistan - including court decisions and agreements - shall be considered valid unless it is amended or annulled pursuant to the laws of the region of Kurdistan by the competent entity in the region, provided that they do not contradict with the constitution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/12/AR2005101201450.html

Please kindly restore the page Iraqi Kurdistan. Heja Helweda 23:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to REDIRECT this article to Iraqi Kurdistan, since according to the consititution there is not such a thing as Kurdish Autonomous Region anymore. In Iraq they use Iraqi Kurdistan Region instead. Also in the dismbiguation at the top of the Kurdish Autonomous Region the REDIRECT of Southern (or Iraqi) Kurdistan to Kurdistan is also wrong, it should be to Iraqi Kurdistan. Heja Helweda 00:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Heja Helweda, there are two things going on here that I think you're asking to be conflated. The first is moving this article to something like Kurdistan Region (probably a good idea). The second, though, is what to do with Iraqi Kurdistan. This used to be a redirect. Before that, we tried having separate articles for Iraqi Kurdistan the broad geocultural region (it was called Southern Kurdistan), and Iraqi Kurdistan the autonomous regional government (called Kurdistan Regional Government); in my opinion, it wasn't a success. All of the information on the one article would also have been useful on the other.
So I think having one article makes good sense. If we want that article to be entitled Iraqi Kurdistan, however, it would be preferable to move this article there so as not to lose the revision history that's preserved here. For that, we need an administrator.
In any case, I recommend waiting a couple days to give others a chance to air their objections and suggestions. Best, QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 22:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
[PS: For technical reasons, it would be easiest to move this article to Kurdistan Region or Region of Kurdistan, and make Iraqi Kurdistan redirect there. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 22:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)]
Hi QuartierLatin1968, My suggestion is to stick with the official names, as mentioned in the Iraqi Constitution and Kurdistan Regional Government(which uses the term Iraqi Kurdistan: Information&SiteID=3), and at the same time in order to avoid confusion retain the name Iraq, so a name like Iraqi Kurdistan seems appropriate. About Kurdistan Region or Region of Kurdistan, it may be confused with Kurdish inhabited areas of neighboring countries. As a very crude test, I googled for these names: Iraqi Kurdistan (334,000), Region of Kurdistan (13,100), Kurdistan Region (55,600), Iraqi Kurdistan Region (589), Kurdistan Region of Iraq (829). So I suggest to keep Iraqi Kurdistan and make Kurdish Autonomous Region a REDIRECT to it. The term Kurdish Autonomous Region is an old one (adopted in 1970) and is no longer in official use. Heja Helweda 20:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
You've convinced me. Now we have to find an administrator though! Never mind, looks like we don't need an administrator. Some things do get better! QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 22:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
CRAP! The reason it worked is that I mistyped the name. Now we're really in trouble. Hang on a jiffy.
Okay, we're now back where we were, but there's an official request at Wikipedia:Requested moves#21 January 2006. In five days, unless somebody offers a vociferous objection, we should be able to move to Iraqi Kurdistan. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 22:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

NO IRAQI!

IT IS NOT "IRAQI KURDISTAN" but AUTONOMOUS REGION OF KURDISTAN! PLEASE CHANGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.190.161 (talk) 07:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually it is an autonomous region of Iraq. Neither Kurdistan or Kurdistan Region is an independent nation state. "Autonomous" is a description of its status, but not an actual part of its name, so it does not belong in the article title. The only other acceptable article names would be along the lines of Kurdistan Region of Iraq or Kurdistan Region (Iraq). Either way, the area has to be identified correctly as being part of Iraq. I appreciate that some people wish it was not part of Iraq but changing something in Wikipedia does not make it happen in the real world. It just makes Wikipedia inaccurate. --DanielRigal (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

real kurdish clans belongs to iraq country

What I like to point out about new kurdish loby in europe and america .

As recorded on library archives points out real kurdish population was born in iraq .Nothing to do with turkish clans who were stated in turkei for centuries .lately kurdish groups reported kurdistan lands covers eastern turkish lands even they have gone further then expected in the turkish parlemant they wanted to be counted as part of turkish politicians .since from 1990s there is many kurdish immigrants was given entry visa to stay in the turkei .since then crime levels were rising terror attacks started .taking to many political refuges wasnt ; such a good idea last 5 years terror attacks gone worst and many soldiers were killed unnecasserly while they were serving their army on iraq borders.... 

what I like to point out about that matter turkish government must bring taugh laws to stop

that political refugees coming to turkei and european countries .. strick rules and changes in the governmant legislations needed . turkish authorities shouldnt be used as channel by those only lives on terrorism act this isnt a place or land for any PKK terrorist groups I hope they solve that crises on the iraqy borderline most of the terrorist breeding etnic groups landed on turkish iraqy side ./ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.245.243.152 (talk) 19:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Question

Wow, I really shocked by this edit! Does this man think he is keeping it correct? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iraqi_Kurdistan&diff=next&oldid=64875634

  1. It's written in some Kurdish constitution or another that the official languages are Kurdish, Assyrian, and Arabic (in that order). No question here.
  2. "Chaldo-Assyrian" is a broad term with varying meanings. It can either be:
    1. A newly-invented title that describes the union between the names "Assyrian" and "Chaldean" (not "historically known as..."), or
    2. A person who belongs to the Chaldean Catholic Church who also wants to be identified as Assyrian. (Thus, this does not include those who refer to themselves as Assyrians).
  3. They have never always been referred to as "Aramean" even though they speak the language. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Middle East for hundreds of years. At the time of the Great Jewish Revolt in 70 CE, Jews in Palestine spoke Aramaic. Any sane person would not call them Arameans.

Chaldean's edits in question were completely legitimate. --334 22:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I want to know why you put first language in list as Arabic? Should be Kurdish, Assyrian and then Arabic in THAT order!!! Lots of Kurds have next to no knowledge of Arabic now. Too busy learning English and making sure their children do the same. Many speak and understand good Farsi too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.181.235 (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Population???

Population is not right, in kurdistan live min.8mil people, please make it right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.78.171 (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


the population of the kurdish is 4,864 millions at the end of 2010 oplease change the iraqi fiogure as it is only a biased estimate by the iraqi central government who has no authority to conduct a survey in the kurdish region


http://www.kurdishglobe.net/get-pdf-file/KurdishGlobe-2011-54-16.pdf?ID=286 According to the Kurdist tan Regional Government, 1 million and 300,000 people in Kurdistan are government employees, while the population of Kurdistan Region is 4 mill lion and 864,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.77.112.85 (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


again http://www.kurdishglobe.net/display-article.html?id=C3671E729D6BEAF68BD67183604D4A00 According to the Kurdistan Regional Government, 1 million and 300,000 people in Kurdistan are government employees, while the population of Kurdistan Region is 4 million and 864,000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.77.112.85 (talk) 17:14, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

WRONG AREA

wrong area !

here true:

Kurdistan covers 50,000Km2 – four times the area of Lebanon and larger than the Netherlands.

UNDER HELLO ERBIL-ABOUTH KRUDISTAN PAGE http://www.erbilairport.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.190.120 (talk) 11:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually the total are of iraqi kurdistan is 80,000 km square 40,000 of it is disrupted between central and regional governments

Demonym

There are someone that keep changing demonym to "Iraqi Kurd". There's no such thing as "Iraqi kurd" or "Iraqi Arab" or "Iraqi Turkmen" its only "Iraqi". These terms are only used in news to be more specific. Please check your passport and discuss it here before you change it.Sherzad (talk) 10:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Map

Is there some source which shows official map of Iraqi Kurdistan? I saw several maps that showing different borders of the region. There must be some source with map that shows official borders of the region as recognized by Iraqi and Kurdistani governments. Does somebody have such source? I can draw a new map for Wikipedia in accordance with that source if it is provided. PANONIAN 19:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

There is a very detailed map on page 160 of the KRG's Investment guide here. It shows all the provinces, districts and sub-districts including disputed territories ~ Zirguezi 22:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for link, but that map looks problematic too because it shows some disputed territories and I do not know does such territories should be included into map of Kurdistan Region or excluded from it. Does Kurdish regional government de facto control all these disputed territories? And also, does Iraqi government recognize Kurdistan only without these disputed territories? PANONIAN 07:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I think they should be included and if possible you should try making a map with the disputed areas highlighted. The control of these areas is a quite complex and it differs not so much between governments but between political/ethnic parties. There is however a very good map that you can use as reference here ~ Zirguezi 18:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Things are more complicated than I thought. :) OK, I think that map from www.krg.org would be most close to official one, so I will see what could be done with it. PANONIAN 18:45, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Population

According to the latest statistics from the census offices in Erbil, Sulaimani and Duhok, the population of Kurdistan has reached 5,299,304.

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurds/5342.html--Alan Genco (talk) 20:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Population in Kurdistan

Population is not right, in Kurdistan live 7 million people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.40.87 (talk) 15:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Please update informations regarding the population it has changed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan khalil (talk • contribs) 17:43, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Mosul

The map is very false. Iraqi Kurdistan does not include Mosul. It only has a 15-20% Kurdish population. Chaldean 12:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The first map yes it is not accurate: The population of Mosul is principally Kurdish, but with a large minority of Arab-speaking Christian Assyrians although resettlement plan instituted by the Ba'th Party government beginning in the 1970s tried to increase the presence of Arabs in the city but after the fall of the Baath regime many (muslim) Arab families left Mosul and returned to their cities and many Kurds who had left Mosul came back to the city. Now it is safe to say that the population of Mosul is mainly Kurdish and Christian. The problem with first map is that it confuses Kirkuk and Mosul. Now in 2006 Kirkuk has a strong majority Kurdish population more than it is in Mosul (more Arabs left Kirkuk and more Kurds returned back to the city in comparison to Mosul) but you see Kirkuk is shown half Kurdish but Mosul totally Kurdish. So I agree with you and think we should replace the first map with the old one. Jalalarbil 14:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


Now it is safe to say that the population of Mosul is mainly Kurdish and Christian.

No it is not, all you gotta do is look at the election results, where in Mosul Sunni arabs got 75% of the votes. Chaldean 00:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosul traditionally was Kurdish and Christian until Baath increased the number of muslim Arabs in the city and forced the Kurds to leave the city. After Baath this process converted to decreasing muslim Arabs number and increasing Kurdish number. Right now it is going to be so and this is a process not a sudden event. The elections are not the same as census since many Kurds did/do not agree with Kurdish alliance and may prefer to vote to a secholar party which wants a united secholar Iraq rather than to Kurdish alliance or more probably not to participate in the elections especially in a city such as Mosul with a muslim Arab population which may worried many Kurds about their lives to go out and vote. Like I said it is a process and the same as Saddam did not arabize the city in 'one' day, the Kurdification of the city too, requires a time to be done. Besides the elections were several months ago and still there were no enough possibilty to the leaving-returning process. I heard that even christians have a such a process, to increase the Christian population in the city since unlike many Kurds who do not really have a claim about the city of Mosul most Christians have a nationalistic claim for that (whether they will be able to do that or not is not clear yet). Most Kurds claim the surronding areas of Mosul not necessarily the city of Mosul, while Kurdish government believes that the city traditionally has been Kurdish-Christian and thence they say it should be included into the federal government of north (currently known as KRG). Indeed in 2005 the city of Mosul was included in the map of Barez Mella Baxtiyar which provided to Baghdad government... Jalalarbil 09:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


nearly half of mosul population is kurdish and 60% of the population of kerkuk is kurdish the arabs in mosul attacked kurds on several occasions arab election workers have manipulated kurdish votes all over the arab parts of town and a lot of yezidis votes for allawi and a lot of shabak kurds voted for the shia alliance , the sunni arab got votes from the turkmen , some 50.000 turkmen voted for the sunni parties


Mousl was never part of Kurdistan and its population was mostly arabs,could you please provide more evidence that Mosul was kurdish?? stats?? documents.. anything but grannie's "stories" note for kurdsish government : greed leaves the person with nothing.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.200.24.14 (talk) 11:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC) Mosul is not Kurdish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annabananahana (talk • contribs) 15:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Background vs History

Is there some reason for the Background and History sections to be separate? History of the United States isn't split up into a Background section from before the formation of the United States and a "History" section afterwards. Neither is History of Mexico, History of Israel, History of Brazil etc. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll remove that Background/History separation. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 16:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I disagree, the article is about Iraqi Kurdistan autonomy, created in 1991-2. Everything prior to that is background.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
By the same standard United States#History/History of the United States is about United States independence created in 1776 and everything else is background. Same with Mexico#Mexico/History of Mexico. Hong_kong#History/History of Hong Kong should have everything before it's autonomy under background, show should Nakhichevan#History, Greenland#History/History of Greenland etc.
Aside from State of Palestine which in my opinion would constitute a special case, are there any country/territory articles that have the same kind of Background/History separation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 01:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Other then State of Palestine, no other articles seem to make this Background/History separation for autonomy and pre-autonomy periods, so I'll remove that separation, however that autonomy period is distinct from the rest of the history. I'll give it it's own subsection. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Claim of turkish investments

"However, relations have been improved since then, and Turkey now has the largest share of foreign investment in Kurdistan." There is no citation or source for this sentence. Can we remove this sentence until the one who wrote that can cite a source for it, with actual NUMBERS? 188.22.179.154 (talk) 08:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Country cats

I disagree with this. Neither the Kurdish leaders nor any other country recognises Iraqi Kurdistan as an independent country. This cat was not even applied to de facto independent countries like Nagorno Karabakh and Abkhazia.--Kathovo talk 15:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I see, i guess it depends on definition of 'country' (either an independent state or even an autonomy). See below.GreyShark (dibra) 14:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

RfC on Iraqi Kurdistan level of autonomy

There is a clear consensus that Iraqi Kurdistan shouldn't be added to the {{Asia topic}} navbox. Armbrust The Homunculus 16:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently working on template:Asia topic, i've become convinced that Iraqi Kurdistan should be added to "Dependencies and other territories" in the table and treated accordingly as an autonomy with an exceptional level of self-rule (similar to Hong-Kong and Macau). The Kurdistan region of Iraq is a case of high degree of autonomy in Asia, with all national symbols and independent government and military forces.GreyShark (dibra) 14:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

This has come up previously. It would have been nice to have more detail behind your reasoning for wanting this change; at the moment it's all quite vague. Please explain why you single out Macau and Hong Kong as parallels, and what sets Iraqi Kurdistan apart from other autonomous areas within Asia.
In a similar manner to U.S. federal law whereby a state can act within its own set laws at its discretion but ultimately within the boundaries of the U.S. Constitution, so too must Iraqi Kurdistan's regional government act within its country's legislative framework - Iraq's federal laws and Constitution; this is spelled out clearly in Article 141. Just how autonomous is it if the central government determines the region's official languages? Hong Kong and Macau are exempt from Chinese interference in this respect. It's specifically described in Iraq's constitution as "a federal region" rather than a fully- or semi-autonomous region. In what way is this markedly different to U.S. states, Russian or U.S. federal regions (which no one defines as autonomous)?
In fact, having said all this, there is nothing in the Iraqi constitution that shows it has been granted greater autonomy akin to Hong Kong's or Macau's. Almost nothing has changed for Iraqi Kurdistan since legislation was enacted in 1992, and it is still merely a region rather than a separate entity. Unlike Macau and Hong Kong, the laws of Iraq still largely apply, including economic laws (oil disputes are reflected by this). Also unlike Macau and Hong Kong, Iraqi Kurdistan uses the Iraqi Dinar as currency, tying it to the central government and Iraq as a whole, maintaining its dependence as a region to the rest of the nation and its financial affairs.
As CMD said on the Template:Asia talk page, "the Iraqi Kurds are vigorously and effectively flaunting their self-rule" - I would agree, and I would urge caution before being taken in by it. I also agree that there needs to be more supporting evidence on your part, and one paper isn't enough. I notice you never responded to CMD's request for "particular quotes from the two books you provided that run along these lines, or other similar papers?"
On that talk page, you stated, "Sources generally refer to the Kurdistan region (aka Iraqi Kurdistan) as a separate entity" and provided three links.
The first source does no such thing. It refers to it in numerous ways - "Iraq's Kurdistan region"; "northern Iraq"; "Kurdish region of northern Iraq"; and "Iraq's Kurdish region". Every time it is mentioned, it is mentioned in relation to and within the boundaries of the rest of the nation. If Hong Kong were the subject of the article, I guarantee there would be no mention of China in relation to Hong Kong. You would not see "the Hong Kong region of Eastern China" or "China's Hong Kong region". The second source refers to it as "Kurdistan Region of Iraq", and this source in particular is disingenuous. The issue I have with this source is that it's a company with a primary base of operations in the area and their use of the term has very little to do with the state of autonomy; company operations proceed in Iraqi Kurdistan because the security situation in the rest of the country is diminished and wholly inadequate. If the Anbar province, for example, were a safe zone for international companies to operate and flourish in while the rest of the country was in chaos, you would similarly see "Anbar Region of Iraq" listed in the same manner on company websites operating in that region. The final source you provided is a Kurdistan Regional Government website. It describes the region as "Kurdistan Region – Iraq" numerous times on the site, and notably on its mandate page. Let me make something clear: referring to a particular region of a country does not in any way define that region as a "separate entity", making it even less of an "entity" when it's referred as part of and in relation to the country to which it belongs.
Ultimately, I'm convinced that it should not be added. - 212.183.140.23 (talk) 05:59, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • comment - GreyShark can you provide any sources stating Iraqi Kurdistan has not just "exceptional level of self-rule" but some kind of different legal/constitutional status from the rest of Iraq? --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:15, 2 November 2013 (UTC)(editor randomly selected to participate in the request for comment)
Sure, see below.GreyShark (dibra) 11:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - there are a number of sources pointing to the exceptional level of autonomy of Iraqi Kurdistan.
First of all, though officially still considered a part of federal Iraq, it enjoys complete separation from the central system of Iraq, including in military, government, social services and economy (see Fox News report "Iraqi Kurdistan enjoys a high level of autonomy from Baghdad, and the regional parliament has passed laws on a wide range of issues."). Similarly, Hong Kong and Macau are also described as having a high degree of autonomy. The legitimacy of separate Iraqi Kurdistan's government (the KRG) is bound in the 2005 Iraqi transition law in article 53 - "(A) The Kurdistan Regional Government is recognized as the official government of the territories that were administered by the that government on 19 March 2003 in the governorates of Dohuk, Arbil, Sulaimaniya, Kirkuk, Diyala and Neneveh. The term “Kurdistan Regional Government” shall refer to the Kurdistan National Assembly, the Kurdistan Council of Ministers, and the regional judicial authority in the Kurdistan region." [5].
Sources generally refer to the Kurdistan region (aka Iraqi Kurdistan) as a separate entity; see for examples Yahoo News announcement,Genel Energy website, [UNHCR report on Syrian refugees in Iraqi Kurdistan.
There are also academic assessments dealing with the issue - The Future of Kurdistan in Iraq; Iraqi Kurdistan: The internal dynamics and statecraft of a semistate‏; The Kurds of Iraq: Ethnonationalism and National Identity in Iraqi Kurdistan.
The government of Iraqi Kurdistan (KRG), also refer to themselves separately. KRG website for example completely disregards Iraqi national symbolism, in favor of Kurdish national identity - see [6].GreyShark (dibra) 11:48, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As per the arguments provided by the IP editor above. We already know that Iraqi Kurdistan has an "official government of the territories" but all you've done is reiterate the same talking points you used previously without responding to counterpoints. The 2005 Iraqi transition law (TAL) you cited is irrelevant because it's no longer in use. For one thing, the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) is not recognised as the official government of the Kirkuk, Diyala or Nineveh regions, Baghdad is. Criticized for giving minorities "power beyond their numbers", the TAL was in effect for only two years before it was replaced by the present constitution. "It enjoys complete separation from the central system of Iraq, including in military, government, social services and economy" is a falsehood. As was stated above, it still answers to Baghdad, which does not equate to enjoying "complete separation". This does not sound like "complete separation" - the regional government had no say over the Turkish presence within its borders, the central government made the decision. Military disputes over control between regional and central government regarding the peshmerga - the armed Kurdish militia (the region doesn't have its own army) - also proves that it does not "enjoy complete separation". The central government last year also withheld peshmerga funding and reiterated the Iraqi army's constitutional right to deploy into Iraqi Kurdistan. The fact that the central government retains the authority to demand such a thing is important to note; whether the regional government does or does not want to play ball is irrelevant. You can make an argument for social services, but this is actually financed using a share of the Iraqi national budget, in the same way that US states are allocated funds for public services with some level of self-sufficiency. The regional coffers are not uniquely self-financed and independent; this budget can be allocated or withheld at the whim of central government. The economy was already mentioned above. Regarding the Fox News link, how does "the regional parliament has passed laws on a wide range of issues" differ from saying something like "California has passed laws on a wide range of issues"? It doesn't differ from the US' 10th amendment. You were asked on Template_talk:Asia_topic#Iraqi_Kurdistan to provide particular quotes from the books you referred to, but failed to do so. You were called out on this above, and again have failed to provide anything of substance. One of the books repeatedly refers to the TAL which, as I said, is no longer in use. In fact, I'm not sure you even read the PDF you linked to, which actually states: "Since the fall of Saddam, billions of dollars were injected into the Kurdish economy from state coffers and international investment, but the KRG lost significant levels of control to the central government. [...] Since 2003, 95 percent (!) of the revenue of the KRG has derived from the central government’s oil revenues, a share that amounts to 17 percent of the total Iraqi national budget. Under this arrangement, the central government can exercise significant leverage over the KRG." It then goes on to say that commitment to Kurdish nationalism "has vanished" and that "long-term sustainability as an independent entity" has been "greatly undermined". The websites you posted before and were questioned about have simply been posted again, and the arguments against them ignored. The only difference is that you've added a UN link... which actually includes a map identifying Iraq, but not Iraqi Kurdistan within it. The only reason it mentions Iraqi Kurdistan by name at all is because of what the UN described as a "sudden influx" of refugees "streaming" into that specific region of Iraq. I think you've grossly overemphasised its level of autonomy. You've failed to counter nearly every assertion made so far and I'm not confident in your knowledge of the region. - G E Enn (talk) 01:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Kurdistan might have as much autonomy as Scotland, so it certainly doesn't qualify as some type of independent territory. Listing Kurdistan next to places like Hong Kong would infer a false legal similarity that does not exist. Furthermore, claims about Kurdistan's autonomy also don't hold water as Kurdistan does not have its own independent military, UN recognition, etc. Finally, making this proposed change to the template sounds like a back-door effort to assert a Kurdish sovereignty that the article itself cannot accurately claim. Chris Troutman (talk) 10:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
The RfC is considering Iraqi Kurdistan as a potential "Dependent territory" with high degree of autonomy. Nothing is implicating Kurdistan is a "state" or "independent".GreyShark (dibra) 15:20, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Must agree with Chris Troutman and G E Enn above. The issue is not whether Iraqi Kurdistan is an "official government of the territories" but whether it has some kind of different legal/constitutional status from the rest of Iraq. No evidence has been provided for that. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC) (editor randomly selected to participate in the request for comment)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

South Kurdistan

please change this page to South Kurdistan because Kurdistan is not Iraq. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hereshsniper (talk • contribs) 21:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Not South Kurdistan, It is the KRG, a autonomous federal entity of Iraq and the Iraqi government ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 20:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

RfC on Iraqi Kurdistan autonomy level (second proposal)

See box. Formerip (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Result: No consensus. Iraqi Kurdistan should not be included in the template.

Two editors supported the proposal and three were opposed.

In support of inclusion, it was argued by the proposer that Kurdistan is an autonomous state within Iraq. As was pointed out in the discussion, though, this on its own is not necessarily enough, since other autonomous territories are not included in template:Asia topic or similar templates. It was also argued that not being afforded a place in the template puts IK in the unique position of having its diplomacy-related articles orphaned from any navbox template. This is a reasonable argument, but I'm not sure it makes IK unique (Tibet might be another example). A further argument was made that Kurdistan is not taken seriously enough on WP. This argument is difficult to assess but, even if it is true, it is not clear to me why this means it should be included in this template in particular, unless the idea is a sort of consolation prize.

Against inclusion, it was argued that IK is not a "dependent territory". As was pointed out in the RfC, this does not mean it cannot be included as an "other territory", though. It was also argued that Kurdistan is not a unique case and that no strong reason has been given for it to be treated differently from other entities with devolved or autonomous governments. I think this is fair.

Overall, I don't think either side presented anything decisive. Given that voting was close, I think the only thing I can do is to close as "no consensus".

Considering developments in Iraq over the past months, I would herewith like to make this RfC regarding adding Iraqi Kurdistan to template:Asia topic under the section of "other Dependent territories". This is the second RFC on this topic, with first RfC issued on 20 October and closed 26 November 2013 with a "no consensus" outcome, see discussion from 2013. In the meanwhile, i would like to point out that Iraqi Kurdistan came into media attention and is referred as a notable case of exceptional autonomy, with high level of self-rule bound in Iraqi constitution, and hence is somewhat similar to Hong-Kong and Macau - Special Administrative Regions of China. Here are my reasonings:

  • Iraqi Kurdistan holds separate national symbols and a separate autonomous parliament and government (see [[7] KRG website]), not subject to direct Iraqi Federal control (see "Independent" article from 24.06.2014).
  • The legitimacy of separate Iraqi Kurdistan's government (the KRG) is bound in the 2005 Iraqi transition law in article 53 - "(A) The Kurdistan Regional Government is recognized as the official government of the territories that were administered by the that government on 19 March 2003 in the governorates of Dohuk, Arbil, Sulaimaniya, Kirkuk, Diyala and Neneveh. The term “Kurdistan Regional Government” shall refer to the Kurdistan National Assembly, the Kurdistan Council of Ministers, and the regional judicial authority in the Kurdistan region." [8].
  • Iraqi Kurdistan is a de-facto economically sustainable entity (though officially still under the scope of Federal Iraq), with the completion and operation of Kurdish-Turkish oil pipeline by early 2014 and construction of international airport in Arbil back in 2005. For several months already the Kurds operate without Federal funding.
  • Kurdish region security is entirely out of Federal Iraqi control and KRG effectively controls borders and internal order by Peshmerga forces (see CNN from 28.06.2014).
  • There are academic assessments of Iraqi Kurdistan as a "largely autonomous federal state within Iraq" (for example see review by Johns Hopkins University).
  • Kurdish region is widely referred by the media as an exceptional case of autonomy, referring to ""Kurdish autonomy" or "Kurdistan region" see The Economist,The Independent,Inquirer,Reuters.

I welcome other users to comment and emphasize that we are not talking about any form of independence of the Kurdish region in Iraq at this point (there is no independence), but about a case of exceptional autonomy.GreyShark (dibra) 17:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The questions to ask are:
  1. What is the official status of Iraqi Kurdistan? A: autonomous region within federal Iraq.
  2. Is this status likely to change giving the region a higher degree of independence? A: yes
  3. Should Wikipedia anticipate this change? A: no.--Kathovo talk 09:24, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Many other templates use this template:Asia topic. And you can easily search for specific thematic articles. For example, from template {{Asia topic|List of diplomatic missions of}} You can go to all (Asian) articles "List of diplomatic missions of". But ONLY article List of diplomatic missions of Iraqi Kurdistan is not linked by template. Article List of diplomatic missions in Iraqi Kurdistan has the some problem. Etc. Only Iraqi Kurdistan has specific articles like this, which can be linked by Asia templates. It has sense to give Iraqi Kurdistan to this template. My response: support. Jan CZ (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Nominator gave us lot of evidence to prove that Iraqi Kurdistan is autonomous, but I don't see any evidence to prove that it is regarded as a dependent territory. As I understand, the proposal is to include Iraqi Kurdistan under "other dependent territories", so the question is whether Kurdistan is dependent territory, and not whether it is autonomous, self-sustainable, etc. Nominator does not present any evidence from reliable sources to prove that Iraqi Kurdistan is considered to be dependent territory. Wikipedia article on Dependent territory says that dependent territories "are commonly distinguished from other subnational entities in that they are not considered to be part of the integral territory of the governing State." As far as I know, Iraqi Kurdistan is always considered to be part of Iraq in every context. We do not have any sources to prove that Kurdistan is commonly considered not to be part of Iraq. Other dependent territories in the Template:Asia topic like Hong Kong and Macau are indeed often considered not to be part of PR China. They compete separately in the Olympics, they have separate country code top-level domains, separate currency, etc. Most maps show Macau and Hong Kong as entities separate from China, while I've never seen a serious map which shows Kurdistan as separate from Iraq. Wikipedia article on East Asia shows Macau and Hong Kong as separate entities in the main infobox, while the article on Western Asia does not show Iraqi Kurdistan in the infobox. So, not just that we do not have sources which consider Iraqi Kurdistan to be dependent territory, but it's status is not that of the depended territory per definition of the dependent territory. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Comment. The section of template:Asia topic is called "Dependencies and other territories". In template:Europe topic we have also section Other entities, where even included not only EU and SMOM but also European Economic Area. Templates are not exactly define the different types of political entities. The template is used for quick navigation for the reader to the relevant articles. Iraqi Kurdistan has in many respects quite unique position, because that it has a number of specific articles, which usually have only States or dependent territories (or other entities like EU, SMOM, EEA..). Therefore, from a purely practical reasons, it is recommended the inclusion of Iraqi Kurdistan into the template. Similarly, as the reasons for the inclusion of EEU into template:Europe topic. Jan CZ (talk) 20:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support: It's clearly an separately notable "other territory" and belongs in the navbox's "Dependencies and other territories" section (and in similar sections of other such navboxes, as needed). The above objection is predicated up on it not being a "dependent territory" of something, but that's a straw man argument in effect, if not intent (the fault actually lies with the imprecision of the proposal's own wording which implies that Iraqi Kurdistan should be considered a "dependent territory"). Treating Kurdistan and Iraqi Kurdistan in particular as a notable topic is overdue, and frequently suppressed by PoV warriors (even in unexpected places, e.g. trying to censor mention of Kurdistan in articles on domestic cat varieties native to the area). This sort of "Turkwashing" and "Iraqwashing" of Kurdish cultural topics and, here, their significance and notability, needs to stop.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:26, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's an autonomous area within a federal state, not a dependency or "other territory". Being an autonomous area is not that uncommon; China has five (not HK/Macau), the Philippines has the ARMM and India has several autonomous tribal areas. There is no reason why Iraqi Kurdistan is any more deserving of being singled out than these. Number 57 22:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just a note regarding: "This is the second RFC on this topic, with first RfC issued on 20 October and closed 26 November 2013 with a "no consensus" outcome, see discussion from 2013."

Ignoring the broken link you provided, it was not a "no concensus" outcome. The outcome was: "There is a clear consensus that Iraqi Kurdistan shouldn't be added to the {{Asia topic}} navbox." Comment is free, but facts are sacred. ;) --G E Enn (talk) 18:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Official language

Turkmen language is not a official language of the KRG, I corrected it.

Turkmen language is just allowed to be used officially in some areas where Turkmens live. But it is not constitutional the official language of Kurdistan.

According to the Kurdish constitution Kurdish and Arabic are the official languages of Kurdistan and the constitution was not changed.--Alan Genco (talk) 22:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Incomplete Historical Section

The historical section does not give info on how Assyria evolves or transitions to modern Kurdistan. That crucial part of history needs to be filled... ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 22:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

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