Talk:Iraq War/Archive 22

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Archive 20

A question for Aug. 19 supporters

A US soldier was killed in a hostile incident on Aug 22. The question: since the "war ended on August 19", part of which war his death is??--DAI (Δ) 10:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a really good question. I would probably look at how the deaths of US servicemembers in WWII were tallied after the surrender of Nazi Germany. In occupied Germany, the allies battled the Werwolf, a loose network of terrorist cells, made up of terrified, starving teenagers and fanatical Nazis - both of which were delusional enough to believe in a myth of a waiting Nazi counter-revolution or malicious enough to carry out a scorched earth campaign to hinder the spread of democracy. These post-war insurgents bombed police stations, claimed the lives of American soldiers and civilians, planted mines, sniped at American occupation forces and assassinated mayors and officials collaborating with the occupying allied forces struggling to rebuild the country. Sounds just like post-invasion Iraq doesn't it? So I say however those deaths were tallied, the same should be used for all civilian, military, and insurgeant personnel from here on. --Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like post-invasion Iraq from 2003-on, except of course the insurgency in Germany was a whisper of a fraction as large and long as that of Iraq, and the US never felt the need to escalate operations with more troops, as they did in Iraq. But I digress -- why not declare the war over when Bush declared "Mission Accomplished"? 68.194.19.90 (talk) 13:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Well the insurgency really came after the Iraqi Army formally surrendered and techically that the war ended on that day in 2003. Almost every modern war (American Civil War, WWI, WWII, 1st Gulf War, etc...) had insurgency periods that followed and those periods that are never counted as being a part of the actual war, since an insurgency is techically viewed as an unorganized armed rebellion. For example, WWII ended in 1945, not 1947. Pro-US insurgents even existed for years after the Vietnam War -after the Fall of Saigon- in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos even after that war was techically "over".

However since our media mistakenly combined the actual war and the insurgency into one -since the insurgency was far worse than the war itself- so we count the war as ongoing from March 2003. From a technical point of view, the Iraq War ended on May 1, 2003. Meanwhile the Iraqi Insurgency is really itself a separate conflict, with different enemy belligerents and should be billed as lasting from May 1, 2003 to present day since, while the US and it's allies have reduced their forces, the attacks from the insurgency are still occuring, plus the US force as just be substituted for an Iraqi force thats will be doing most of the future fighting.--Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

maybe there are some better examples here on Wikipedia: the Algerian Civil War never officially ended - it became low-level and is now part of the broader Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present). Similar stuff in the Second Chechen War and the insurgency in the North Caucasus. Or even War in Somalia (2006-2009) and the War in Somalia (2009-). I hope I helped a bit--DAI (Δ) 20:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

This whole discussion on an August 19 end date for this is just premature. Just because the US has withdrawn most of its troops out of the country, to satisfy a US domestic political decision, does not mean the overall conflict has ended. Several times during this conflict, political leaders have made arbitrary statements as to the "end" of the war--only to have actual events make these statements look silly (Mission Accomplished only being the most obvious example). For now, the status should remain the same as prior to the most recent US pullout and wait for actual events to unfold. The Iraqis don't even have a government right now (and haven't for several months) so the situation is highly unstable. Publicus 22:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

2 More US Soldiers were Killed today (September 7, a full week after the end of combat operations) in a Hostile Fire and they are still listed as Causalities of the War, so there is no question now that the War is still ongoing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 02:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 8.20.108.136, 24 August 2010

{editsemiprotected} This sentence appears in the section labled: "2010: US Drawdown", "These troops are required to leave Iraq by 31 December 2011 under an agreement between the US and Iraqi governments, although the Iraqis have stated they may not be ready until at least 2020,[276]"

The second half of this sentence is factually inaccurate. It is not supported by the source document. A source document that contains the fact that this sentence is trying to articulate can be found here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100819/ts_alt_afp/iraqunrestmilitarytroops . The sentence must be changed in order to be factually accurate. "The Iraqis" have not stated anything; the source document states that the Iraqi military and the US military have endorsed the point of view that they may not be able to provide adequate security until 2020. However, they have not stated a position regarding the presence of United States troops on Iraqi soil during the interim period from 2011 until 2020. It should be noted that keeping military forces in Iraq past 2011 would violate the Status of Forces Agreement, which is the current governing treaty (and, thus, the law) in this matter.

8.20.108.136 (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the second half of that sentence. Use {{editsemiprotected}} again if you provide exact wording with a source to add some info.--Commander Keane (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Woah, woah, woah...woah.

I'm generally a very calm person, so you'll have to excuse me, but what the fuck did you people do to this article? "August 31, 2010 (disputed)"? "...with approximately 50,000 U.S. troops still remaining in an "advise and assist" capacity. They are scheduled to leave by August 31, 2011, ahead of their required departure of December 31, 2011."? Listen up, the last combat brigade left on the 19th, Obama officially declared the end of combat operations on the 31st. There are still 50,000 troops in Iraq. 50,000 troops did not maintain the mission for a further 12 days after the combat troops left. Please do some research before you screw with the information in the article. Also changing a sentence from "is an ongoing[cite] military campaign" to "is a[cite] military campaign doesn't help at all. Swarm^Talk 00:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Status

I disagree with several points in this article, but the "Establishment of a Democratic government" part in the status is particularly galling. Iraq does not currently have a functional government, and the governments previous established can hardly be called democratic. Additionally, there are 50,000 soldiers remaining, so I am not sure if anyone can say that the war is over as of 1/9/2010. I also note that the major reason behind the Iraq war, the WMDs, are missing from the status. Unflavoured (talk) 09:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Iraq has a democratic leader for the first time. LOL, I'd call that quite a government, wouldn't you. Think about the facts before you engage in logical discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cymbelmineer (talk • contribs) 22:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Btw this "most of the iraqi insurgency destroyed" outcome is also nonsense

In 2003-2007, the insurrection was estimated by Washington to number 20,000 people or 30,000.

Afterwards, 100,000 fighters - dubbed "former insurgents" joined the so-called Awakening. So, what we have is a 20k insurgency turning into 100k and deciding to side with the aggressor country —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.156.67 (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? There is already a section on the resurgence of the taliban, is that not enough? ValenShephard (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Booked

Let's be bland and all agree, at least within the article itself. The more we've disagreed, the more trees we've caused to be slaughtered. Don't believe me? See:

An artifact put together by or for somebody who clearly is in less desperate need of storage space than I am. -- Hoary (talk) 09:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Grammar.

"The heavily armor of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division moved westward"

Should be either:

"The heavily armored U.S. 3rd Infantry Division moved westward"

or

"The heavy armor of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division moved westward"

I suggest the former.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.215.75.177 (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Burning Iraqi tanks?

Why are we getting more and more pictures put in the article of destroyed Iraqi tanks? It was a common theme for the mass media in the early days to show these triumphal images of burned out tanks, but it doesn't give a very good impression of the war. This war is primarily an underground insurgent war, tanks only figured in the initial invasion. I dont think it gives an accurate representation of the facts. What do we think? ValenShephard (talk) 10:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. - Atfyfe (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, deleted most of the images--tanks are definitely not a major part of the conflict. Publicus 23:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I thought my proposal was lost in the muddle but you got to it. Best, ValenShephard (talk) 12:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Question about this article's lies

So when is the blatant lie about Blix saying things were going to be resolved in months going to be corrected?

When is the blatant lie about the surge doing nothing going to be corrected?

When is the blatant lie about Joe Wilson debunking the forgeries going to be corrected?

When is the blatant lie about Blair contradicting his statements to the house of commons going to be corrected?

When is the blatant lie about Sabri saying there was no WMD going to be corrected?

When is the blatant lie about a secret document in January 2001 going to be corrected?

When is the dishonest implication about the Downing street memo being a smoking gun going to be corrected?

Just curious 71.65.71.145 (talk) 21:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Provide proof that they are lies and correct them. V7-sport (talk) 00:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

== How about this caption then... "A M1 Abrams in Fallujah, fires its main gun into a building to provide suppressive counter fire against insurgents"

I thought this was the English Wikipedia, not the Double Speak Jargon File. Here fixed that for you... "A M1 Abrams in Fallujah, fires its main gun into a building to kill the inhabitants." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.88.171 (talk) 12:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

When Iraq war will be finished

What shall the article say about the war time (2003 - present) when is the war done? "September 1, 2010 U.S. forces cease all combat operations, i.e. patrolling, serving arrest warrants, route clearance, etc, and transition to a pure advise, train and assist role. Operation Iraqi Freedom is officially concluded, and the advise and assist mission continues under Operation New Dawn. Approximately 50,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. Should we say the war is done 1. September, or when ALL US troops are out of Iraq? 85.165.197.102 (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If we are going with the latter, we need to detach the term 'Operation Iraqi Freedom' from the War as a whole, since that operation will conclude on August 31. 109.155.186.36 (talk) 16:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that the conclusion of an Operation is not synonymous with the conclusion of a war. War being the more general term in which multiple operations may occur. However, I think it's somewhat debatable as to whether the cessation of combat operations should be considered the end of the War. We still maintained presence in Korea long after the war officially ended. IN this case, there is probably not going to be an armistice, or surrender, etc, as there is not an organized enemy state. SO the question is, how do you define the end of a counter-insurgency type war? For internal consistency, I think the way the Vietnam War is dated may be a good way to address this issue. Otherwise, i think you could probably make subjective arguments either way; i.e., that either the continued large presence during a time of conflict means continued participation in a war, or that discontinuing combat is the same thing as withdrawal. I would lean to the former, because lack of aggressive action does not guarantee there will be a lack of defensive combat operations/security operations. Just my 2 cents.Jbower47 (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The operation Iraqi Freedom, was a part of the Iraq war. Is not the ongoing "new" operation, Operation New Dawn, also a part of this war? I think when the US stop all its operations, including New Dawn, is a more correct approach of when this war is absolutely ended. That would be in December 2011. In an earlier cas, September 1st would be a good choice; "September 1, 2010 U.S. forces cease all combat operations, i.e. patrolling, serving arrest warrants, route clearance, etc, and transition to a pure advise, train and assist role. Operation Iraqi Freedom is officially concluded, and the advise and assist mission continues under Operation New Dawn". - Jørgen88 (talk) 18:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Logically, the Iraq War comes to an end when the violence/insurgency ends, whenever the US is involved or not. The war is more about Iraq than it is about the USA. Yonaka (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Iraq didn't invade Iraq. Jørgen88 (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The invasion ended in May 2001, so that's hardly relevant. Yonaka (talk) 19:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

But the violence that exists is Iraqi on Iraqi violence, which certainty existed before the invasion. To say that the war is over only when all violence ceases is ridiculous. It is like saying World War 2 is ongoing because someone got mugged in Tokyo.V7-sport (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

I agree, combat operations have ended and the 'war' is over. There is no supporting argument in favour of retaining it as a 'war'. If you refer to insurgency and violence as a war, then as rule of thumb Northern ireland would of been at war for roughly 30 years upto 1998.Gp1v07 (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Status

With the Iraq war now completed, I believe it is time to update the "status" in the infobox at the top of the page.

While I believe that there is ample evidence to declare the war an American victory, I realize this is probably not practical on Wikipedia.

Here is my proposal:

status: Defeat of Baathist government by Coalition Forces. Suppression of Hussein loyalists and insurgent forces by Coalition and New Iraqi armies. Establishment of a Democratic government. (more...)

Then we can list more minor, and potentially future, details. Mburn16 (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Iraq war is not complete simply because a US politician has stated this is so. Perhaps you should review the past seven years of this conflict and see just how many times various politicians have stated "with certainty" certain facts to fit a particular agenda. That list would start with the "presence of WMD" in Iraq... Publicus 14:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

By the way, what's the hurry to put an end date on the Iraq war? Several issues remain outstanding, any single one of which can cause this conflict to heat right back up again.

The Sunni vs Shia conflict continues, which is especially important since Iraq still does not have a government.
The Kurdish question remains a hot topic both internally (Kurds have signed oil contracts that Baghdad does not recognize) and externally--both Turkey and Iran have actually invaded and/or bombed Kurdish areas in the past few years. This could be a real problem since there's several hundred thousand well-armed Peshmerga.
Iran continues to try and influence Iraqi politics--could be another issue that heats up the conflict. The last time Iraq fought a country before the US it was Iran. The last time Iran fought a country it was Iraq.

Not trying to a downer, just trying to illustrate that Wikipedia editors need to review the facts not political statements and that the only thing that matters is facts on the ground. I would have thought editors would have realized that after the whole nonsense during the run-up to the Iraq war--aluminum tubes and Iraqi UAVs anyone? Publicus 15:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The Kurdish issue is not a part of the Iraq war, it is a regional conflict over a homeland for a particular group. The Kurdish question existed before, during, and after the United States invaded, and will continue after we leave. Iran, like other countries, tries to influence its neighbors - we may not like this fact, but since they neither run the Iraqi government,nor are engaging in direct combat on the ground, it is not immediately related to this page. As for the insurgency...it has been, as I mentioned, surpressed. It may fire back up again, and it could even bring down the Iraqi government (theoretically), but that is like saying that we didn't win WWII because the USSR took over half of what the Nazis left behind.

The "Iraq War" was about getting rid of Saddam, and putting a new government in his place, and establishing a generally secure country. All have been accomplished. You cannot look at what I suggested, and say that any of them are not true. Mburn16 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.229.199 (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Iraq war (per Bush and supporters) was not about getting rid of Saddam. It was very clearly stated that the purpose of the war was to pre-emptively remove a threat against the US, that threat being the perceived belief that Saddam had WMD and might use them (see authorization for the use of force). The Kurdish issue is very much a part of the Iraq war and has been from the start. Kurds were used as examples of what Saddam might do against the US (see use of poison gas against Kurds in the 90s). Iran has actually been engaging in direct combat on the ground, both against the Jundallah forces in northern Iraq, the Kurdish groups (also northern Iraq)--and thru the use of the Shia militia forces who were in-country training Shia militias such as the Mahdi Army in the use of EFPs (see Karballa raid). Turkey has also sent ground forces into Iraqi Kurdistan and send artillery there every so often. The point of all these references is that just like other wars (e.g. Vietnam) a war that appeared to be contained within the neat and tidy borders of one country can and does very easily spread to neighboring countries. And just like Vietnam, the Iraq war has the significant potential to re-ignite in a way that would drag the US into another version of the Iraq war (US + Iraqi government vs Iraqi Kurdistan, OR US + Shia Iraqi government vs Sunni Iraqi political parties, and so on). And the proclamation of a particular government involved in the conflict, really has very little to do with the facts and events on the ground. Publicus 20:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It was very obvious from day 1 that getting rid of WMDs meant getting rid of Saddam, and establishing a stable, democratic government. You think we were going to invade, haul away the weapons, and leave Saddam in power? No. The issues are one in the same. That cannot be said, however, for the Kurdish issue. You are free to create a page on Kurdish sepratism, or to include or edit a section on the Kurdish people. But a conflict that existed well outside of and beyond the American invasion cannot be counted as a part of the war, simply because they took place at the same time, and in the same general area. The Iran issue is similiarly separate...

America went into Iraq to remove the WMDs, remove Saddam, and install a stable, democratic government. The insurgent forces prohibited, for a time, establishing a stable government - so defeating them was a part of the mission. All the primary goals have been accomplished, and American involvement is now complete. the Iraq War is OVER, and what happens now is no more a part of the Iraq War than the Cold war was a part of World War II.

I can see including "ongoing counter-insurgency opterations by Iraq" and "Alleged Iranian interference in Irqi politics" as part of the "(more...)" on the 'status' - but it now needs to reflect an actual outcome, right now, it reads like a timeline. Mburn16 (talk) 23:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Good point. So how about this:

Result: Defeat of Baathist government by Coalition Forces. Suppression of Hussein loyalists and insurgent forces by Coalition and New Iraqi armies. Establishment of a Democratic government. > Continued Anti-insurgent operations by Iraqi forces > Alleged Iranian interference in Iraqi politics > Continued presence of American advisors until ?December 31, 2011? Mburn16 (talk) 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Mburn16, it appears that you have some very strong political opinions, but please do not allow those beliefs to detract from your objectivity. Comparing any aspect of the conflict in Iraq to World War Two is very ill-advised. In fact, that's where the entire problem in this article finds its roots. A "war" in the classic Clausewitz-ian sense of the word denotes a conflict between two or more nation-states. It begins with a formal declaration of war and ends with an armistice or negotiated surrender or treaty. Applying that definition to the conflict in Iraq, the war proper began in March of 2003 and ended no later than May of that same year. However, the bulk of the conflict involved not the short, decisive war but the long, drawn-out and inconclusive insurgency that followed and which, despite your protestations to the contrary, still continues (there were city-wide terrorist bombings in Iraq that killed dozens of people only days ago), albeit not to the severity witnessed in the years 2004-2007. This article should never have conflated the "war" with the "insurgency" that followed, however, it was in the interest of anti-conservative liberals to call the insurgency a war and to conflate it with the invasion and removal of the Hussein regime which preceded it, when in fact they were separate issues. The "war" is long over. The insurgency has been going on for years and will probably continue for the foreseeable future. The only thing that is truly coming to an end are major U.S. combat operations. I qualify that with the "major" only because if even a single U.S. soldier engages in combat in Iraq after today, that will still constitute a combat operation, albeit only a marginal and politically insignificant one. It will not suffice to come up with a compromise result in this article. The only truly meaningful alteration would be a separation of the conflict between the "war" and "insurgency" stages, but such a drastic reform cannot be made due to the widespread conflation of the two in the public mind. That being the case, the article should not declare the war over at all. The results to date should be listed, but no end date should be listed for a few months at least. Let's take a while to see what immediate results come from this massive draw down of U.S. troops. If the Iraqi government remains stable and violence declines dramatically, we can always go back and put August 31, 2010 as the end date after the fact.Krg8501 (talk) 03:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, there's no need to rush to put an end date on this conflict. I've mentioned some possible negative options, but things could also go perfectly--US removes all troops, Iraqis figure out how to govern without creating a civil war, Iran's influence is negated, and the Kurdish question is solved. THEN we could go back and put an end date on this for whatever date people agree on. But it is simply too early to put an end date on right now. I think it is just the nature of war in more recent times for end dates and sometimes even start dates to be difficult to determine. Publicus 19:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I restored the "combat operations concluded" to the status and added "major" as per the articles referenced. If you can find "conflict ongoing" citations feel free to update. V7-sport (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Changed to "conflict ongoing" per refs. Publicus 23:01, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Source 1, the Politico video was an editorial and he didn't state the "conflict was ongoing". Source 2, the guardian stated that combat troops had been pulled out and only made reference to "fighting ahead". Soruce 3 was a blogpost on the Chicago sun times, it has a disclaimer attached "The views expressed in these blog posts are those of the author and not of the Chicago Sun-Times" which means it fails s Wikipedia:Reliable sources and it did not say that major combat operations were ongoing. Source 4;"Couric & Co" is a blog on the CBS website. "Sounding" like combat to Nikki Ackles, the wife of a soldier doesn't signify that the major combat operations have not ended. Although Source 5 was the closest to reliable and stating that combat was continuing, that was in the beginning of August and it states that the "combat mission" changed at the end of August. Source 6 is another blog affiliated with the "Poynter Institute". The original memo Specifically states that "We can also say the United States has ended its major combat role in Iraq,".

"Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article". Stating that the "conflict is ongoing" when you can't provide a source that states that the conflict is ongoing is original research. There are sources that use the specific language that "major combat operations [are] concluded. Can you source the language that you have posted with a citation that passes wiki Reliable sources? If not please revert it and remove the citations. ThanksV7-sport (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Um, when the quote is "the war is not over" that means conflict is ongoing. 71.229.187.111 (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Um, then find a legitimate citation that says that or it's original research. V7-sport (talk) 21:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

By the way V7-sport, I wanted to apologize for my snarky comment last time--I was a little tired. Sorry about that, let me know if this new status compromise works for you. Again, deepest apologies. Publicus 17:49, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Changed the major combat ops concluded to match the refs, US combat ops "might" be concluded, but conflict is still ongoing. Publicus 15:13, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologize, thanks for your concern, its downright gracious for Wiki. ;-) IMHO At issue here is what we are defining as the "war". If it is a "lack of peace" then of course the conflict is ongoing. However that would also mean that there is "war" in Detroit or Glasgow or St. Petersburg, etc. If it's "open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations"...well... not so much, that ended with SOFA when the coalition's presence was acknowledged by the Iraqi government. Regardless "The threshold in Wikipedia is not "truth", Only verifiability" and that is even more important when there is disagreement. But again, thanks for your concern.V7-sport (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

I agree, the definition of what the "Iraq war" is, is kind of a difficult one right now. Obviously, it's not a traditional war, but I'm not sure what else to call it or what others are calling it. I've noticed how quickly the media has dropped coverage of the conflict from the front page to buried articles or even mentions--which is pretty sad since there's about the same number of US troops in Iraq now that were in Afghanistan from 2001-2007 and look what happend when that conflict was ignored. That's also a big worry that this is just another temporary lull and things will heat back up again between some of the parties, which will draw the US back into the mix and putting an end date just wouldn't be appropriate.

Back in 2005 or so when the insurgency flared up I started arguing that a "civil war" had broken out--maybe that's what the "Iraq war" has become, some kind of civil war/insurrection, or maybe the war has ended and we should now call it the "insurgency in Iraq"--similar to the "insurgency in Saudi Arabia" article. I'd be more than happy to put an end date to the war part of this mess, I just haven't seen anyone provide a reasonable and verified name to call the current situation. Combat appears to be over for the original belligerent (US), but conflict continues for the new Iraqi security forces--so what do we call that? Publicus 22:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Btw this "free elections held" outcome is also nonsense

Elections were held prior to 2003 as well. Yes, they were not held in a democratic atmosphere, however neither have post-2003 elections.
The "elections" in the past 7 years were conducted under occupation, war, killing, intimidation and military dictatorship —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.156.67 (talk) 09:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure primary sources agree with your riposte.http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/iraqelection2010/2010/03/201035195518278382.html--Cymbelmineer (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, Cultural Patrimony, and Historiography

Shouldn't that twelve volume set of books by James Bridle also be referenced here? It's a study of the Historiography the Iraq War article on Wikipedia complete with edit wars.[1] [2] [3] --Xero (talk) 12:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't they look better under criticism of wikipedia? Just a thought.--Cymbelmineer (talk) 16:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Should it still be considered a "War"?

While Iraq is certainly not a stable democracy, under what criteria is it still considered a "war"? To retain that title, justification should be provided or the definition of "war" augmented such that current conditions in Iraq are included in, and therefore satiate by, the new definition. For legitimacy, this claim and support should not be offered by the Wikipedia community, but by accredited individuals or organizations.

The presence of combat troops and terrorist attacks, by previously understood standards, does not constitute a "war". Many destabilized areas in the world are suffering through these conditions but do not bear the title of "war". It is acknowledge the term "war" has been diluted through such initiatives as "the war on drugs" and "the war on terror", but in order for this page to continue to call the Iraq conflict a "war", a section needs to be devoted to establishing a set of conditions in Iraq whereby an end of the Iraq War can be recognized.

Failure to do so, risks biasing this page beyond an objective relay of information. This conflict invokes strong opinions and emotions, but for the sake of truth and the reputation of Wikipedia, objectivity must be maintained; only facts, impartial and disconnected, should be reported. Qualifiers and adjectives should be absent, as well as distortions and omissions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.234.23.2 (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, here's some of my thoughts as to what conditions would have to be in place to consider ending the use of the war terminology;

the removal of "most" U.S. troops from Iraq. I know kind of a tricky one, since some people would consider any U.S. troops in Iraq to be a continuation of the war. However, a really, really low level of troops--who are never involved in any combat situations would be a pretty good indicator. This would follow for U.S. naval and air forces as well. It's not enough for Iraqi security forces to take the lead, U.S. forces would have to be totally absent.
A determination or declaration by the Iraqi government that combat has ended for Iraqi security forces, or something similar, such as a public change in mission from war-fighting to insurgency. Since it's their country, they would probably be the best ones to know when the fighting has stopped. Of course, all bets are off if this sort of declaration comes from a partisan government (i.e. Shia govmt declares the war over, but the Sunni are not part of that equation) Publicus 19:59, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I think we should wait and see before prematurely declaring the war is over. Remember "Mission Accomplished"? Colin4C (talk) 23:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I totally agree, just responding with some thoughts about what a (hopefully soon) end to this war could look like. The last thing we should do is prematurely say the war is over simply because a politician several thousand miles away states that the "mission" has changed or is accomplished. Publicus 16:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Most other language versions have now defined the withdrawel of US combat troops August 19 as the end date of the war. I strongly propose english wikipedia follow.Yger (talk) 06:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)(active on sv:wp)

That sounds logical but remember that the Vietnam War lasted for two more years after American troops withdrew in 1973. Throughout the whole course of the Iraq War optimists have been prematurely claiming that the war has been won because nothing terrible has happened in the last month/week/hour/minute. Colin4C (talk) 04:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Yger, what is the rationale for the other wikipedia versions calling Aug 19 as the end date? Are they just using the "end of combat missions" statement by the Pentagon? Is there some other evidence or guideline they're using? Publicus 14:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidence that a war in Iraq is still going on falls into ones opinion, the media and Obama have stated that the war is over and all combat troops have left. The troops still in Iraq are like those were in Japan following world War II, they are just there for support. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Obama was very careful to say that the "war is not over"--the combat mission of U.S. troops has changed. If you check his statement, he's pretty careful to avoid saying the war is over, as was the Pentagon spokesperson, Morell. Besides, I'm waiting to hear someone from the Iraqi government make a similar statement, after all it is their country. Publicus 17:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

And the Associated Press has issued a statement stating just the opposite, that just because U.S. combat operations may have ended-the war is not over. Does anyone know if U.S. militarty personel wounded/killed in Iraq after Aug 19 are considered casualties of the Iraq war or something else? For instance are the personel assigned in Iraq as "advise and assist" still receiving combat pay, combat medals, etc. That would be helpful in determining the Pentagon's actual position vs their public relations piece. Publicus 17:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Is the war over?

I don't think so, but let's try and figure out some evidence for or against. Here's some points to consider, if editors could add refs to these items and add their own points I think it would be helpful. Publicus 17:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

U.S. President has stated "the Iraq war is over." -Has this happened?
Iraqi Prime Minister has stated "the Iraq war is over." -Has this happened?
Media consensus on "the Iraq war being over." -Is this the case?
Coalition allies have stated "the Iraq war is over." U.K., Australia, Poland, etc have made statement to that effect.
Public opinion in Iraq, US, etc--believes that the Iraq war is over.

And swap your use of the word "over" with "continuing" and what do we get? Nothing defninitive I would bet. And how do you even propose to measure media consensus? And what credible polling organisation is even trying to poll such a ridiculous question for you to even put that out there? The only remotely verifiable points are the first two, and I would be amazed if you could find any quote from either official that asserts that the 'war' is ongoing. You might find references to a continuing insurgency or unrest, but I think we all know that calling an insurgency or civil unrest an example of a war, even a civil war, is a clear example of presenting a fringe POV, which makes this article look completely discredited. MickMacNee (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

So besides your opinion that the war is over, you don't have any sources or even any ideas on what sources to check with? I don't follow. I'm trying to provide examples of indicators supporting whether the war is over or not. What are your ideas? Publicus 21:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

My suggestion was pretty clear. Use your suggested method, but check for the reverse ocndition, and stick to sources that will actually exist. And I was pretty clear that nobody's personal opinion is relevant, not even mine, so you are going up a blind alley on that score. MickMacNee (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I put in "Status Unclear" next to the date, there are sources though that claim the Iraq war is over. Then again World War I did not "Offically end" until 2010 with the last money paid by Germany and I am not waiting another 90 years to update this. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

"and stick to sources that will actually exist. And I was pretty clear that nobody's personal opinion is relevant, not even mine..." That is exactly so. Personally I thought the war was over when Iraq signed the SOFA agreement and the coalition went from an occupier to a presence acknowledged by a legitimate Iraqi government. There are citations to make the case for it being over now. V7-sport (talk) 22:35, 16 October 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

Article is not remotely truthful or informative

I don't even know where to begin, so let's go from top to bottom:

In 2002, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 1441 which called for Iraq to completely cooperate with UN weapon inspectors to verify that it was not in possession of WMD and cruise missiles. Availed of access through such cooperation the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) found no evidence of WMD. More conclusively accurate verification of Iraq's compliant disarmament requiring some additional months of inspections was not undertaken.[50][51][52][53] Lead weapons inspector Hans Blix advised the UN Security Council that while Iraq was cooperating in terms of access, Iraq's declarations with regards to WMD could not be verified at the time, but the confirmation of disarmament through inspections could be achieved within "months".[50][54]

What Blix was saying is that if Iraq cooperated with the verification, it could have been resolved in months. He wasn't saying that it would have been resolved within months. He stated explicitly on January 27, 2003 that cooperation was insufficient to date.

There is not a single mention in the introduction about the elections in Iraq. On the other hand, there is too much material about refugees, and more recent events. There is also no mention about the surge in 2007.

According to documents provided by former U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, George W. Bush, ten days after taking office in January 2001, instructed his aides to look for a way to overthrow the Iraqi regime. A secret memo entitled "Plan for post-Saddam Iraq" was discussed in January and February 2001, and a Pentagon document dated March 5, 2001, and entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts", included a map of potential areas for petroleum exploration.[87]

What does this have to with anything? The U.S. was already trying to oust Saddam before Bush took over. Where is the evidence of the secret memo? What does the Pentagon map have to do with anything?

The issue of Iraq's disarmament reached a crisis in 2002–2003, when Bush demanded a complete end to alleged Iraqi production of weapons of mass destruction and full compliance with UN Security Council Resolutions requiring UN weapons inspectors unfettered access to suspected weapons production facilities. The UN had prohibited Iraq from developing or possessing such weapons after the Gulf War and required Iraq to permit inspections confirming compliance. During inspections in 1999, Iraq alleged that UN inspectors included U.S. intelligence agents that supplied the U.S. with a direct feed of conversations between Iraqi security agencies as well as other information. This was confirmed by the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.

This makes it sound like the issue just came up in 2002 when it was festering for years. Why not mention of the Gulf War?

During 2002, Bush repeatedly warned of military action unless inspections were allowed to progress unfettered. In accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1441 Iraq reluctantly agreed to new inspections in late 2002. The weapons inspections did not uncover any WMD in Iraq. Shortly before the invasion Hans Blix, the lead weapons inspector, advised the UN Security Council that Iraq was cooperating with inspections and that the confirmation of disarmament through inspections could be achieved in a short period of time if Iraq remained cooperative.

Once again, that is distorting what Blix was saying.

In the initial stages of the war on terror, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), under George Tenet, was rising to prominence as the lead agency in the Afghanistan war. But when Tenet insisted in his personal meetings with President Bush that there was no connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq, Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld initiated a secret program to reexamine the evidence and marginalize the CIA and Tenet. A major part of this program was a Pentagon unit known as the Office of Special Plans (OSP), created by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz and headed by Douglas Feith to supply senior Bush administration officials with raw intelligence pertaining to Iraq, unvetted by intelligence analysts, and circumventing traditional intelligence gathering operations by the CIA. The questionable intelligence acquired by the OSP was "stovepiped" to Cheney and presented to the public.

This creates the misleading impression that the office of special plans was the only organization disseminating intelligence, and does not reference the 2002 NIE at all.

In late February 2002, the CIA sent former Ambassador Joseph Wilson to investigate reports (later found to be forgeries) that Iraq was attempting to purchase additional yellowcake from Niger. Wilson returned and informed the CIA that reports of yellowcake sales to Iraq were "unequivocally wrong." The Bush administration, however, continued to allege Iraq's attempts to obtain additional yellowcake were a justification for military action, most prominently in the January 2003, State of the Union address, in which President Bush declared that Iraq had sought uranium, citing British intelligence sources.

Wilson reported the sales did not occur, but this did not alter the British intelligence which said sales were intended.

On May 1, 2005, the "Downing Street memo" was published in The Sunday Times. It contained an overview of a secret July 23, 2002, meeting among British government, Ministry of Defence, and British intelligence figures who discussed the build-up to the Iraq war—including direct references to classified U.S. policy of the time. The memo stated, "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

It is just irresponsible to provide one out of context sentence whose meaning has been hotly disputed.

The CIA had contacted Iraq's foreign minister, Naji Sabri, who was being paid by the French as an agent. Sabri informed them that Saddam had hidden poison gas among Sunni tribesmen, had ambitions for a nuclear program but that it was not active, and that no biological weapons were being produced or stockpiled, although research was underway.According to Sidney Blumenthal, George Tenet briefed Bush on September 18, 2002, that Sabri had informed them that Iraq did not have WMD. Bush dismissed this top-secret intelligence from Hussein's inner circle which was approved by two senior CIA officers. The information was never shared with Congress or even CIA agents examining whether Saddam had such weapons.

Clearly, Blumenthal is being dishonest, as it is directly contradicted by the above. If this was true, why didn't the French report that their intelligence had doubts about the WMD?

In September 2002, the Bush administration, the CIA and the DIA said attempts by Iraq to acquire high-strength aluminum tubes that were prohibited under the UN monitoring program and which they said pointed to a clandestine effort to make centrifuges to enrich uranium for nuclear bombs.[96] This analysis was opposed by the United States Department of Energy (DOE) and INR, which was significant because of DOE's expertise in such gas centrifuges and nuclear weapons programs. The DOE and INR argued that the Iraqi tubes were poorly suited for centrifuges, though it was technically possible with additional modification.[97] A report released by the Institute for Science and International Security in 2002 reported that it was highly unlikely that the tubes could be used to enrich uranium.

It should be noted that only INR disputed the nuclear program, and no agency was disputing chemical or biological weapons.

A meeting between George W. Bush and Tony Blair took place on January 31, 2003, in the White House. A secret memo of this meeting purportedly showed that the Bush administration had already decided on the invasion of Iraq at that point. Bush was allegedly floating the idea of painting a U-2 spyplane in UN colors and letting it fly low over Iraq to provoke Iraqi forces into shooting it down, thereby providing a pretext for the U.S. and Britain to invade. Bush and Blair made a secret deal to carry out the invasion regardless of whether WMD were discovered by UN weapons inspectors, in direct contradiction with statements Blair made to the British House of Commons afterwards that the Iraqi regime would be given a final chance to disarm.

How does this contradict what Blair said? Just because they didn't find anything, doesn't mean it wasn't necessarily there.

There needs to be more quotes from Bush, Blair, and Saddam during the lead up. Also, post-war intelligence investigations.

The post-invasion phase does little to emphasize the Sunni character of the initial insurgency.

On March 6, five United States Army soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment, raped the 14-year-old Iraqi girl Abeer Hamza al-Janabi, and then murdered her, her father, her mother Fakhriya Taha Muhasen and her six-year-old sister. The soldiers then set fire to the girls body to conceal evidence of the crime.[159] Four of the soldiers were convicted of rape and murder and the fifth was convicted of lesser crimes for the involvement in the war crime, that became known as the Mahmudiyah killings.

Why on earth does this one incident merit attention in a conflict which has killed thousands?

Reports from the ground dispute that the surge had a significant effect on security in Iraq. While life in Baghdad improved in 2007–08, the main reason this was that the battle for Baghdad in 2006–07 between the Shia and the Sunni populations was won by the Shia, who as of September 2008 controlled three-quarters of the capital. These demographic changes appeared permanent; Sunni families who try to get their houses back faced assassination. Thus the war against the U.S. occupation by the Sunni community, who had been favored under Saddam Hussein, had largely ended. The Sunni have been largely defeated, according to The Independent, not so much by the U.S. army as by the Shia-led Iraqi government and the Shia militias.[195]

This is a fringe view, at most it deserves one sentence, not three paragraphs. It simply is insane to believe that the massive bloodletting in which peaked in 2006-2007 was going to subside quickly on it's own regardless of what the U.S. did. The aricle makes no attempt to explain the clear and hold tactics that were implemented during the surge. Nor does it mention the Sunni Awakening.

Iraqi voter turnout failed to meet the original expectations which were set and was the lowest on record in Iraq,[264] but U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker characterized the turnout as "large".[265] Of those who turned out to vote, some groups complained of disenfranchisement and fraud.[264][266][267] After the post-election curfew was lifted, some groups made threats about what would happen if they were unhappy with the results.[268]

Groups always complain about disenfranchisement or fraud. Where is the evidence?

On April 9, 2009, the sixth anniversary of Baghdad's fall to coalition forces, tens of thousands of Iraqis thronged Baghdad to mark the sixth anniversary of the city's fall and to demand the immediate departure of coalition forces. The crowds of Iraqis stretched from the giant Sadr City slum in northeast Baghdad to the square around 5 km (3 miles) away, where protesters burned an effigy featuring the face of former U.S. President George W. Bush, who ordered the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, and also the face of Saddam. Shi'ites were brutally persecuted under Saddam's rule.[271] There were also Sunni Muslims in the crowd. Police said many Sunnis, including prominent leaders such as a founding sheikh from the Sons of Iraq, took part.[272]

A demonstration of tens of thousands is hardly notable for a city of several million.

The withdrawal of U.S. forces began at the end of June, with 38 bases to be handed over to Iraqi forces. On June 29, 2009, U.S. forces withdrew from Baghdad. On November 30, 2009, Iraqi Interior Ministry officials reported that the civilian death toll in Iraq fell to its lowest level in November since the 2003 invasion.[274]

This seems to imply a linkage that certainly should not be implied.

Casualty estimates

It should be noted that the vast majority of casualties have been inflicted by the insurgents and militias.

Criticisms and costs

We should have a section for supporters as well as critics.

Overall, this article in not remotely encyclopedic. Even people against the war should be offended by this article's disjointed and relentlessly biased nature. 71.65.71.145 (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Overall I agree, this article is biased and arbitrary and has been for a while. V7-sport (talk) 09:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

If you have problems with the article, create an account and lend some help. It's hard to take the thoughts of an IP number as either consistent or serious. Publicus 22:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

It would also be difficult to take seriously an editor who could read such a well stated point by point dissection of some of the article's more glaring problems and instead of discussing them, attempt to dismiss them based on the source. Wikipedia does not require editors to register a username. While I agree the responsibility to change the article somewhat lies with him, and not others to do it for him, these problems are obvious and factual. It seems to me he might be more encouraged to undertake the edits if he didn't get such a flippant attitude from existing editors. My 2 cents. Batvette (talk) 09:18, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Result

Hello there. I'm not a Wikipedia member, so forgive my ignorance regarding Wikipedia practice, but does whether this is a war or not (which I think is still being debated amoungst users in relation to the US Constitution) affect thing listing the result of the war in regards to who won. In the WW2 page it's the allies, in the Vietnam page, it's Vietnam.

I say this not out of any politcal motive, but because its the sort of quick reference thing people might look up in the future. Like if someone asked who won the Thirty Years War, you'd take a look at Wikipedia and see that no-one really won, but that the main result was a relatively lasting peace. Plus, whether this is a war or not, most people consider it one. Thanks for any help you can provide.

60.234.137.101 (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Many consider Vietnam to not be a war but a conflict within the cold war. which was not declared either. You also can't say with any clarity that Vietnam WON, as it was Vietnam we were allied with (ARVN) while helping defend from NLF and Viet Cong incursion. Anyway I think with regard to Iraq you must look at the stated goals of the mission and determine with some certainty whether they were achieved or not, which I believe, from consulting with the joint resolution were:

1. Removal of the current regime in power, with the sub goals of (a)ensuring Iraq had disarmed in accordance with the gulf war cease fire (b)ending Saddam's support for and harboring of international terrorists (c)ending Saddam's oppression and genocide of his people

2. The introduction of a democratic government to Iraq

3. Restoring Peace and Security to the Region for the protection of US national interests and the security of our allies

The first two are pretty much a no brainer, we achieved that. Some might call into question the third, pointing to uncertainty in ethnic divisions that reach across borders that may not have before. They may have a good point. However at the time the war was launched the threat to peace and security was Saddam, and no one could reasonably expect we would be guaranteeing peace amongst all possible belligerents forever.

Legally you also have to look at the fact that the war cites fulfilling UN resolutions as cited in the JR.

I think the answer is clear. Batvette (talk) 09:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

As of now I believe it to be a "coalition victory" however I haven't looked for the proper citations to include that. The whole thing still could hit the fan however. Whether or not that would effect what the coalition has done is arguable though. But at this point, If anyone else wants to gird themselves for the acrimony and scour the interwebs please be my guest. V7-sport (talk) 00:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Material losses

Does anyone have information about material losses of the us like tanks, trucks, planes etc...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.214.42 (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Interesting and worth looking into. I do have some data to Sept 2010. Cost of war (excluding reconstruction), $900 Billion plus another $9 Billion considered "lost" ie: stolen. According to the Washington Post the overall cost exceeds $3 Trillion by a considerable margin. 200,000 weapons such as AK-47s are missing. Vehicles, machine guns and RPGs valued at $1 Billion are missing. Waste: $10 Billion. Food, fuel and housing for soldiers: $20 Billion. Military Helicopters downed: 75.Wayne (talk) 01:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The Iraq war is not over

I'll say it again, since some of these new editors seem to have trouble reading and responding in the talk section. The Iraq war is not over just because the current US administration has changed the current mission of the 50,000 US troops in Iraq. Obama clearly stated in his speech the other day that the combat mission has ended (with the caveat that if the Iraqis request help the troops would provide it so combat could take off again)--he did not say "the Iraq war is over." So, I really have no idea what editors are doing changing the end-date. Nothing has changed other than a new policy statement. There is no rush to change the end date to something that exactly matches a politician's speech--in fact, it could be easily argued that anyone who does so is making a POV edit. Again, time will tell what the end date of the Iraq war will be--Wikipedia is not the place to make such declarations, it is an encyclopedia. Publicus 15:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

And don't take my words for it, how about the Pentagon spokesman--"I don't think anybody has declared the end of the war as far as I know," Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell told MSNBC.[4] Publicus 15:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It's clear the US mission is not over. That is obvious. "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is over, but does "Iraq War" only refer to that (and the other coalition countries') combat mission, or does Operation New Dawn, which will end in 2011, constitute part of the Iraq War? The current mission is an "advise and assist" mission, but I think, historically, it still falls under the events of the Iraq War. Based on what I have seen, no one is considering the Iraq War "over", and the war will only be considered "over" when the US military operation end, not when the combat operations end. Then again, does it even make sense to say, "2003-present combat operations concluded August 31, 2010"? Swarm^Talk 22:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The Iraq war refers to the overall conflict. The US operation name only refers to US military operations, the UK and other coalition members have different names for their military operations during the Iraq war. It's kind of POV to say that combat operations are over--when those "combat operations" only refer to the US military. The Iraqi security forces are still conducting combat operations all over the country with US forces in an advise and assist role--and US airpower is certainly conducting "combat operations" since the Iraqis don't have much of an airforce. The insurgent groups are still fighting against; Iraqi security forces, each other, and US forces (even tho the US forces are harder targets since their removal from urban areas). So obviously the war is continuing--it is just moving into a different phase of conflict--a view which the Pentagon would share as well as the Iraqi MOD. Publicus 21:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

U.S. combat operations were the cornerstone of the whole war. Iraq is not involved in "combat operations" in the same sense the US was. Public security in one's own country is not the same as war. Swarm^Talk 02:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Meaning there was no war in Algeria? Even if the US withdraws, there will still be a war. Yonaka (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

That's certainly debatable, considering those who say the war is over now. However, Wikipedia is certainly not the place for such a debate. 216.174.21.45 (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most of the other editors, the war is still on. Resistence in the form of insurgents still goes on, they still target western troops and western interests and allies. And the country is still occupied. ValenShephard (talk) 18:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

By the criteria being set up here someone should go back and switch WW1 and WW2 indeed all wars to "Combat operations concluded" because there are still acts of violence committed in the territories involved. Meanwhile it is safer to live in Baghdad then it is to live in Chicago or St. Louis... V7-sport (talk) 20:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

Is that violence connected to the reasons of those two wars? Very rarely, so your argument is weak. People in Iraq are still staging attacks and violence for the same reasons as before this partial withdrawal. Even so, a war can go on without violence or any battles, just look at the Korean War, which is still officially on. Until there is an end of most or all occupation related violence, I think this will be a conflict in some way or another. ValenShephard (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the curent situation in Iraq meets the generally accepted definition of an occupation.

The US forces there are there under an agreement with the Iraqi government. And the US has kept to the Status of Forces Agreement, while the timeline was even made earlier at the request of the Iraqi government. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.220.22 (talk) 00:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Even the issue of whether combat operations have stopped is in question: AP Issues Standards Memo: 'Combat In Iraq Is Not Over' Cleshne (talk) 22:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't actually matter what we think. It matters what reliable sources say, we are simply representatives of them. As far as I have read in the sources I've seen, the war is not over. Until we have reliable sources which proclaim in the majority "the war is over", when the Iraqi parliament for example signals an end to combat and police operations counter-insurgants, then we can discuss this issue again. ValenShephard (talk) 22:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

"Is that violence connected to the reasons of those two wars? Very rarely, so your argument is weak."-ValenShephard

There were 400.000 people put into mass graves by the Saddam Hussein regime, the Sunnis and Shiites have been at it for centuries, The Kurds were gassed, Kuwait and Iran invaded... Was that all due to the reasons of those two wars? No. Unless you can directly correlate the violence that is taking place to the invasion your argument is invalid and even if you can, it doesn't mean that the war is ongoing in terms of the coalition combat, only the anti- legitimate elected Iraqi government insurgency continues which is crime, not war. When the Baader-Meinhof Gang mitfered german police was that "War"? When they bombed the US barracks was that a continuation of WW2? V7-sport (talk) 09:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

You're right V7-sport. The Iraq War *might* be over. While often "anti-legitimate elected Iraqi government insurgency continues which is crime, not war", sometimes it can constitute a civil war rather than a crime. It depends on how the next 2 years go. Then we might look back at when Obama declared the *American* combat mission over as the end of the entire war. However, no one is reporting that the war is over (in fact, the opposite is usually stressed), and no one will be until we see how things go. It's like the winning touchdown of a football game. You don't know you've made it at the time, but at the end of the game you can realize which touchdown won the game. - Atfyfe (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Now I'm confused. Does someone else want to read the very short article that V7-sport cites as support of his claim that combat operations have ended. As I read it, it very clearly is a report concerning the end of *US* combat operations. I am not sure why V7-sport thinks he is justified in reverting my edits with the source he's cited. -Atfyfe (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, The link that I thought you had removed had been switched in an intermediate edit. I re-added the previous link which explicitly states "the end of heavy combat operations". The 2 citations together should suffice. Since the US was the last member of the coalition participating in combat operations further "combat" is an Iraqi police action and beyond the scope of this article. V7-sport (talk) 23:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

Proposal:denote three phases

Let's get real here. Calling this whole thing the 'Iraq War' as if it has just one start and end date is just a massive over-simplification. It is so vague as to be pointless, it uses a start date of a conventional war, yet the end date is related to something far different to what anybody would define as declaring the end of a conventional war. Not to mention neither of the original opponents are now the current, primary opponents. The insurgency is a many headed beast, far removed from the Saddam regime by now, while the entity in the Iraq corner is also far removed from the original coalition invasion force, or even the CPA occupying force, by now. If people are genuinely interested in having the infobox display meaningfull and logical start and end dates to readers, rather than just pushing the agenda of 'look what George Bush did', then what is wrong with having a simple, three part definition, as follows:

Conventional war (Operation Iraqi Freedom): March 20 – May 1, 2003
Counter-insurgency against US-led forces (Operation Iraqi Freedom): May 1, 2003 - August 31, 2010
Counter-insurgency against Iraq-led forces (Operation New Dawn): August 31, 2010 - ongoing

As far as I can see, it is going to be pretty easy to get a majority of sources, both tabloid and academic, to agree on start and end dates for the first two phases, and that the third phase is still ongoing. Then, it wouldn't look so odd if the third phase goes on for a few more years, or worse, reverts back to a US-led counter-insurgency. I really don't think that technicalities like Iraq not yet having an Air-Force, or the various sovereing power phases of Iraqi interim govt, are worth dealing with at this top level, but frankly, 'March 20, 2003 - ongoing', is always going to look odd to a great many people, certianly as time goes on, if not on ideological grounds, then on simple basic logic and common sense. MickMacNee (talk) 00:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. - Atfyfe (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I think this is fair. V7-sport (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

It's an interesting proposal, with a rather large problem. Everyone calls this conflict the "Iraq War"--media, citizens, governments really don't distinguish these three phases that you've identified. Perhaps when this conflict is over for awhile--we'll be able to look back and determine some kind of overall structure. Right now, such an organization seems a little premature. Publicus 23:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The war is over, move on.... ^[1],^[2],^[3] The media and Obama have called the war over. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I agreee (another user) just because the Obama admistration said the combat has ended does not mean it is over it is not over until the last NATO US UK or any other country aside from Iraqs troops are out —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigtimer22 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Should Iran be added to the belligerents box?

The Iraq War Logs have confirmed speculation that Iran has been aiding the insurgency with military training and provision of weapons. Would it be appropriate to add Iran to the belligerents box with a qualifying tag such as "Supported by"? This might not be appropriate, but it definitely should be mentioned in the article somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.4.196.248 (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The logs are observations and reports by military personnel, not confirmation of anything in particular. In regards to Iran these "observations" have been made and reported since the war started. Although it's possible things have changed since, in 2008 an official investigation into Iran supplying weapons found nothing. As the U.S. had been pushing for a connection and had declared several times that it had proof, not to find any evidence was very embarrassing so it seems that the investigations findings were accurate. Another problem is what exactly do the documents say? Spencer Ackerman for instance in one case translated what the logs said were foreign specialists helping the Iraqis into "Iranians" in his reporting on the logs. As these foreigners were in U.S. custody according to the logs, if they were Iranian the U.S. would probably have been trumpeting it from the rooftops. Wayne (talk) 17:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The last U.S. combat brigade left Iraq on August 19, 2010.[45]

Personally I have a problem with the last combat brigade leaving Iraq, I was not aware that when nearly the entire population of service members staitioned at Fort Hood(i.e., III Corps, 3rd ACR, 1st Cav, etc.) are still in theatre, that they had left. If my husband is somewhere else on vacation without me, please let me know! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.213.16 (talk) 22:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Officially, the soldiers still there play an "advise and assist" role, not a "combat" role. The last brigade playing an official "combat" role left on August 19, hence that sentence. Swarm^Talk 03:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The line should be removed or altered. The US created a new designation for most of its brigades in Iraq, then removed a relatively smaller number of "combat brigades." However, the organization and equipment of the "combat brigades" is nearly identical to that of the "advise and assist brigades." (Source)

I'm going to remove the sentence about "The last U.S. combat brigade," and change "Approximately 50,000 U.S. troops still remain..." to "The remaining 50,000 U.S. troops are now assigned to "advise and assist brigades" with similar equipment and organization to that of conventional brigade combat teams." TiC (talk) 09:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Status field

I have read some stupied and useless info in the status field like: Democratic Elections held Occupation of Iraq Invasion of iraq, etc...

Oh really? I've never thought of that!' That makes me wonder why the hell did you remove Weapons Of Mass Destruction from the status? The Weapons that US & UK and it's allies claimed Iraq had and that the world was at danger to justify the murders of thousands of peoples? Seriously, alot of ppl lost their loved one becuz of Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL). Kennedy said war in Iraq was choice, not Necessity^[4], so the least you could do is put back "No WMD found" in the status field again. One more thing... No one endangering the world other than the US government and Al Qaeda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XxDestinyxX (talk • contribs) 17:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Where is there proof that this war is ongoing?

If reliable references can be found that the war in Iraq is still ongoing I feel then that the date August 19 should be removed. Examples of deaths do not count as it can be compared to several other wars that were declared over but still had post violence. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Please get consensus on this. This is a disputed issue. And the burden of proof is on you to show that the war has ended. Unflavoured (talk) 03:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish. The same burden applies to those wanting to assert this war is still ongoing. The war is over camp has pretty compelling RS evidence that combat operations are over, from the American/Iraqi Govt downwards. The other side seems to want to rely on original research, synthesis, and cherry picked facts. Not good enough. By a long shot. MickMacNee (talk) 12:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It is untrue that all combat operations have ended. Stryker Brigades have only been renamed "Advise and Assist" Brigades. They are still fully lethally equipped for war. Marcus Qwertyus 05:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

And which overseas US Armed forces who are not currently fighting a war are not "lethally equipped for war" exactly? Did they lend the Afghan brigades their weapons? MickMacNee (talk) 12:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, what is the Iraqi govmt's position on this? Do they feel the war is over? I would argue their position on this is highly important, more so than Obama's statements about the technical definition of what troops in a combat zone are or are not publicly stated as doing. As a side note, the U.S. had several thousand troops in Vietnam during the quiet years of that war until of cource the nonsense of calling tens of thousands of active military forces "advisors" became a reality. I only point this out, to show that just because a politician has changed the "definition" of what the military forces are doing, doesn't mean a war is over or that troops aren't fighting. Publicus 17:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I just wanted to point out that the standard for Wikipedia is verifiability, not consensus (or even "truth" for that matter). I reverted the last edit because it did have sources backing it. If you want to find something that passes Wikipedia:Reliable_sources that states the war continues you are of course welcome to do so. -Thanks. V7-sport (talk) 23:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

I posted a bunch of sources last time around with you on this. Never seen any statement by Obama, Pentagon, Iraqi PM, Iraqi MoD that the war is over. Period. End of story. Show some primary sources, not media coverage of a "end of combat mission" or a "mission accomplished" statement.Publicus 21:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

You have yet to post anything that specifically says that the war is still continuing. To make the jump from a few soldiers in combat after the date Obama declared the war to be concluded constitutes original research. Wikipedia:No_original_research Please, I know that we have differing points of view but there isn't any need to take this personally. Ill leave it as so for the moment but there are legitimate citations for the war being over, if you want to keep the status as continuing you will need to find legitmte sources that contridict them that have some government official declaring that the "war is continuing" or the like. V7-sport (talk) 22:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

And since those posts are lost in the talk page, here's a "Battle" that was fought after the Aug 19 date you keep insisting on, Battle of the Palm Grove. If you check the sources, US forces were engaged with insurgents on the ground after Iraqi forces requested assistance. In particular, US Spec Forces were engaged in "combat" with insurgents and Us air forces flew "combat" missions. And as the NYTimes article stated, US Spec Forces have continued to have "combat" missions in conjunction with Iraqi forces. So I really don't understand A) why Aug 19 seems to be so important B) what exactly are these forces doing if they're not fighting a war. Publicus 21:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

And the Pentagon still appears to be using KIA and WIA when labeling casualties. Would that be the case if the war was over? Publicus 22:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

"All told, 49 American soldiers were on the ground in support, including two Stryker platoons and a 10-person Special Forces detachment. Apache helicopters responded with 30-millimeter cannon fire and Kiowa helicopters fired their machine guns. F-16’s dropped bombs. Iraqi helicopters and Iraqi armored personnel carriers were also involved in the operation. "^[5]
With Combat troops pulled out of Iraq who is left to fight in this "Ongoing war"? Ive seen lots of sources that state that the U.S troops remaining are "transitional forces". The Iraq government approved a negotiation for the pullout of U.S Troops back in 2008. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not so much that US Troops are still dying it's that they are still being listed as Casualties of the War, I am pretty sure that the Casualties of World War I and World War II only went up to when the Wars were declared over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 23:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The defense department reported two WIAs in iraq in October, you cant be wounded in action unless you've engaged in some type of warfare.XavierGreen (talk) 23:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The state department also reported the "war" to have ended. V7-sport (talk) 03:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

War on Terror is Over

Since the Iraq war is considered over by some, because Obama made a statement alluding to the end of combat operations, then the War on Terror must be over--because when Obama came to office the Obama administration ended the use of that term. Publicus 15:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

It's now the "Overseas Contingency Operation" and terrorism is now "Man caused disaster"... So yes, you are quite right, we are now completely safe from terrorists, just not disaster causers. . V7-sport (talk) 03:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I like it, I like it ;) Publicus 19:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The war isnt over yet, think vietnam and the phillipine insurrection. US combat operations ended officially in both instances, but yet in the case of the phillipine war combat continued for another 11 years and in vietnam the South Vietnamese continued to fight for another two. The Iraqis are very much still involved in fighting and i assume that the war will continue for a few years at least despite the fact that the US no longer actively seeks combat with insurgents in the region.XavierGreen (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you XavierGreen, there's no reason to rush to put an end to the war simply because the US administration wants to change the name of the mission. Plenty of time to change the end to Aug 19, Sept 1, May 1 2003 or whatever. For now, the dates should remain the same until someone in charge of things actually says "the war is over"--preferably that person would be an Iraqi government or military leader.

Find some reliable sources that state that the "war is ongoing" that contradict the pentagon, state department and the president. V7-sport (talk) 21:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

V7-sport you are missing the entire point, the reason the war is not over is because the Iraqi government continues to engage in combat. I challenge you to find a statement by the US government stating that the Iraqi government has ended combat operations agains the Islamic State of Iraq. You wont find it. Your position is entirely US centric in a conflict that involves multiple parties. In warfare various factions may drop out while other continue to fight on, just because one faction ceases to be a belligerent does not mean that the others lay down their arms.XavierGreen (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the civil war ongoing because of the murder rate in Chicago? If the Iraqi government is combatting internal terrorism it is either an Iraqi police action or a civil war. It is not for me to say which. Indeed, It isn't for any of us to make tat decision, the standard here is verifiability. The last coalition member to be engaged in combat operations in Iraq has stated that it has pulled out it's combat forces and declared the war to be over. (using those words) I see your argument but the coalition mission has concluded, there was violence in Iraq before and there will be violence after. V7-sport (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The Civil war ended because all of the belligerents ceased fighting, in the Iraq War two of the belligerents are still actively engaged in combat with one another (Iraq, and the Islamic State of Iraq). Would you state that the vietnam war ended in 1973 because all of the Free World forces pulled out and the US declared the war over despite the fact that the NVA and ARVN still kept fighting until the South Vietnamese capitulated in 75? Wars do not end until all belligerents are debellated or have capitulated, in the case of Iraq neither has occured. Unless you want to argue that the insurgency no longer exists or that the government of Iraq has capitulated to the insurgents. Verifiability is subject to [[5]].XavierGreen (talk) 23:37, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

There were actually confederates that fought on after the surrender at Appomattox (Battle of Palmito Ranch, etc), so no. And vietnam went on to fight the Chinese and the Cambodians as a direct result...so do we say that the end of the Vietnam war was in 1979? To say that the war is ongoing is original research without sources.V7-sport (talk) 09:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, V7Sport, what would you call the current situation? Obviously, some form of violence is continuing--the church bombing and yesterday's city-wide bombing clearly illustrate that conflict continues. You know my opinion on whether the war is over or not, but I am curious--what would you call the current situation? We can't have the article state that the "war is over" and yet there continues to be dozens of bombs and hundreds of casualties every week. This is the primary problem, I feel, with prematurely putting an end-date of Aug 19. Publicus 01:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I would attribute the current situation islamist terrorism, which takes place throughout the world. The church bombing was claimed by al Qaeda and as you and I have discussed, there is some kind of contingency operation against these man caused disaster makers. V7-sport (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Article protected

Due to the ongoing edit warring over the status of the war I've fully protected the page for 3 days; hopefully this will allow time for some kind of consensus to be hammered out without distractions on the article. To request edits to the page while it's protected you can use {{editprotected}} on this talk page, but you'll need to show consensus for potentially controversial edits. Should edit warring resume when protection expires, it's likely that the offending accounts will attract alternative sanctions.

If I can respectfully make a suggestion, the article is about the entire conflict involving all belligerents, not just the United States. The US statement can (and should) be used to source information about how the US view their involvement in the war, but it seems to me to be stretching the source beyond breaking point to use it to support general statements about the status of all the belligerents. Perhaps some compromise could be worked out for the infobox: maybe the addition of a second line to the date field giving the date of US withdrawal? EyeSerene^talk 11:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If I can respectfully submit; the USA was the last of the coalition forces to withdraw combat forces. The state department has stated that they were "ending the war". The president and pentagon have declared combat to be conduced. So to state that this is war is continuing because there are ongoing acts of terrorism in Iraq is synthesis and original research as there are acts of terrorism all over the world and there was violence in Iraq before the coalition invasion. Indeed, by the arguments being made here there never has been a war that has ended. Further, there has been no attempt to provide contrary citations that supersede the Pentagon, state department and President. That would be verifiable and meet the threshold for inclusion. How about this: Why not start another article for violence in post-war Iraq? V7-sport (talk) 11:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

First of all it is absolutely inappropiate to lock down the entry completely. Secondly, there is no need for further wrong Iraq entries, all unnecessary entries should be deleted. Thirdly, the Iraq war is still full ongoing. War against Iraq, Iraqi Civil War other claims otherwise are just ludicrous.--Iluvwiki1 (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

V7-sport, I appreciate your arguments, though beyond my tentative suggestion for a compromise I don't intend to enter into the debate myself (as I would then be unable to act in an admin capacity per WP:INVOLVED). However, this specific article aside, it seems there is an interesting issue with deciding if we can call something a "war" where no state of war was declared. Obviously the preponderance of reliable sources use the term, so I guess we should too, but it perhaps raises questions about definitions that might be usefully discussed at WT:MILHIST.

Iluvwiki1, if you take a look at Wikipedia:PROTECT#Content_disputes, that should help you understand why I locked the article. The alternative was to make use of the block button, which I try to avoid where possible in content disputes because it effectively shuts out some of the interested parties. Also, where more than one party has been reverting (as on this article), blocking everyone is a bit extreme and does nothing to promote calm and reasoned discussion :) I notice your account is very new, so can I offer some advice? If you intend to contribute to this debate, you'll need to adopt the "wiki way"... that is to say, you need to back up your position with evidence from reliable sources. For example, you claim the war is ongoing despite the US announcement, so you need to supply some sources that actually say that. EyeSerene^talk 14:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for stepping in EyeSerene--good username for stopping edit wars, by the way. Let's see if we can't come to some agreement on this. Publicus 14:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, the state of war was declared with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 which was affirmed by Doe v. Bush. V7-sport (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Not so, a declaration of war and a authorization to use military force are two entirely different things under us code, see this [[6]] crs report for more information on the united states governments offical legal position. Note that nowhere in the authorization for use of military force does the government state that it is going to war with Iraq, if it did so there would be immense consequences via treaty obligations and various sections of US code.XavierGreen (talk) 01:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I remember someone proposing that we separate the War into 3 Phases, an Initial Invasion Phase, a Counter-Insurgency Phase, and a Post Counter-Insurgency (Assist and Advise) Phase. I believe that would be a good proposal and the compromise would be that we set the End Date as Present since the Article is supposed to be be a combination of all 3 Phases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 20:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the Iraq war really over? (Rough wiki)

Please put Over or Not over and state your reason why you feel the war is over or not. I am pulling a rough consensus on this so the debate can be hopefully resolved.

Not over - The war in Iraq, is likely to continue for years after the United States fully withdraws all troops from Iraq. The violence will likely continue for years as Sunnis and Shiites continue to battle for control of the country. Iraqi security forces will likely still have troubles controlling the violence inside of their country, and the return to normallcy is still a long time off for the people of Iraq. The withdrawl of United States troops will likely see the country fll furter into a cycle of violence. --Stangoodspeed (talk) 19:31, 21 October 2010 (UTC)Stan Goodspeed (talk) 14:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Over - Based on some RS I have seen about August 19 most of them are either stating that combat troop action in Iraq by the US has ended and/or the war is over. According to the New York Times and Obama the seven year combat mission in Iraq has ended. [7] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over - with 50.000 troops still in the country and the other arguments that were given above. I guess the Pentagon would not be so worried about the new leak if the war would be really over. We may find some answers in the leaked documents that could help us to decide if the war is really over?

Not over - US troops are still dying there and they are still being listed as casualties of the Iraq War —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 22:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over - "Combat brigades" still exist in the form of "Advise and Assist" brigades formed with no modification from Stryker brigades. Marcus Qwertyus 23:05, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Over , and the citations were up to show that... V7-sport (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Not over - There are tens of thousands of US troops on Iraqi soil, and they are active. President Obama has never stated that the "war is over", instead he stated that "as we wind down the war in Iraq" etc etc. Until US troop numbers become insignificant (maybe 500 as opposed to the current 50,000), or until multiple RS explicitly state that the war in Iraq is over (not "combat missions" are over), then Wikipedia should not indulge in OR and declare that the war is over. Unflavoured (talk) 09:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over - Iraqi PM, MoD, Obama, Pentagon--none have stated "the war is over" plus my previous points on this. Also, no rush to put an end date--more than happy to go with Sept 1 (not Aug 19 bec that's an annoucement date not beginning of new US Operation) just need to wait and see how things turn out. Especially since we've been down this road before (see:Mission Accomplished--after which 4,000 US troops and thousands of Iraqis died). Publicus 19:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over- All that noise about "winding down" Iraq was simply Obama's attempt to show that he keeps promises. In fact, unless he's willing to turn the country over to Iran, he can't end the war, and the 50,000 US troops still in the country will continue to fight and die. Ain't that obvious? --Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over- Obama said we are "winding down" the war, he didn't say in any moment the war is over. Actualy no one has said that the war is over. If the only two editors who are claiming that the war is over are using as evidence the statement "combat operations concluded" as confirmation the war is over than in that case the war was over on May 1, 2003, when George Bush said "major combat operations over". You are demanding sources that state the war is ongoing? I think that would be obvious since US soldiers are still being killed in Iraq. And plus the Pentagon is classifing them as Killed in action, I would think that is confirmation enough that the Pentagon at least consideres the war still on, not to mention the dozens of Iraqis who are still dying. Please provide just one, just ONE reference in which Obama or the Iraqi PM or the Pentagon state THE WAR IS OVER. Can you do that please? And if you do I myself will make the change in the article. I personaly think it is disrespectful for the US soldiers, Iraqi civilians, Iraqi security forces and even Iraqi insurgents who are still dying every day that you try and say that the reason they are dying was not a war but a transitional period. Amen!Diefgross (talk) 06:43, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment Foreign combat missions are over, that's as good as you will ever get in the 21st Century as to what the end of a war actually looks like. People can apply whatever synthesis and personal opinion they like to the current situation in Iraq, but without a reference to support their opinion that the war is ongoing, then it's worthless as far as Wikipedia is concerned. And polling doesn't alter that fact one bit. KIA means killed in action, and armies fight in all sorts of 'actions' that are not 'wars'. That's just one example of the syntheses on display in here. MickMacNee (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment From what you just said I would think that Foreign combat missions are over, that's as good as you will ever get in the 21st Century as to what the end of a war actually looks like. is also your personal opinion and a synthesis since you have not provided a reference to support your opinion and thus it is worthless as far as Wikipedia is concerned. And what other actions are there that are not wars? First time hearing of this. The fact is THERE ARE NO REFS TO SUPPORT YOUR OPINIONS THE WAR IS OVER. People are still dying. If I remember correctly US troops ended combat operations in Vietnam in 1973 and transitioned to assist roles only but the Vietnam war ended in 1975 after the US-backed government was defeated, and the wars official start date was at the moment of US intervention. You just can not say the war is over (which nobody has done) and if the Iraqi government is still under attack you say that is not our problem since it is not a war anymore at least for us.Diefgross (talk) 20:02, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
  - Where is your reference that supports this ridiculous notion that anywhere a soldier is killed in action, there must be a 'war' occuring? Anybody with an ounce of world history knowledge could name a dozen or more military actions that are/were not considered wars. There is a reference to support the fact that the combat mission is over. Where is your reference to support the idea that this war is still ongoing? Your insistence on being shown a reference that says the 'war is over' is just a naive and rather pointless demand, and it doesn't make any more sense no matter how many times you demand to see it, even if you use CAPITAL LETTERS. MickMacNee (talk) 20:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
    - War is war baby whatever way you try to spin it. And if you are talking about other military actions like Vietnam and Korea which were officialy called police actions by the US I think history has made a judgment on that already. And why is it that my insistence to demand a reference is naive and pointless? You yourself said that Wikipedia requests references to confirm events, in that case according to you Wikipedias' insistance on references is naive and pointless. But I would think you are saying that it is naive and pointless because there are no references that confirm the war is over. Bush already said once the combat mission is over why not put the end date as May 1, 2003, in that case? The US may legaly state the combat mission is over but evidence is presented every day that that is not true since US soldiers are still fighting on the frontlines in Iraq and dying. And just if the US says its' combat mission is over doesn't mean the war is over because THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY BELIGERENTS. The US-allied Iraqis have also been involved in the war and at least for them the war is still a reality. Try telling the families of of the three US soldiers who have been killed in action in Iraq after August 19 that they didn't die in a war. I can guess what they would say to you. In any case you have not presented any firm evidence the war is over except the combat mission, but you have not presented evidence that that automaticly means the war is over also. And the majority of editors are of this opinion also. Wikipedia requests verifibility, no evidence that the war is over. 200-300 Iraqis killed last month. What you call that? At the very least the US may not be fighting but the Iraqis are still fighting thus there is still a war.Diefgross (talk) 02:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

" Please provide just one, just ONE reference in which Obama or the Iraqi PM or the Pentagon state THE WAR IS OVER. Can you do that please? And if you do I myself will make the change in the article."

....Great News, the war is over.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/01/AR2010090101607.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/31/AR2010083105193.html

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/08/31/obamas_address_on_the_end_of_combat_operations_in_iraq/

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/116179-obama-the-war-is-ending-fulfilling-campaign-pledge

"As a candidate for this office, I pledged I would end this war. As president, that is what I am doing."

I had other sources posted previously, by they have evaporated into Wikispace. I'll note that the [treaty between the USA and Japan] didn't go into effect until 1952, 7 years after the surrender of Japan on the Battleship Missouri. I can only hope we are not still arguing about this in 2017. V7-sport (talk) 03:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Obama said that he is ending the war not that he has ended it. He will end it, at least the US involvment, when all US troops leave next year. Still not evidence that the war is over.Diefgross (talk) 04:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

See you in 2017 I guess. But this got ridiculous months ago. . -V7-Sport —Preceding unsigned comment added by V7-sport (talk • contribs) 04:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Not over - Fifty thousand U.S. troops are still occupying Iraq, in addition to an unknown number of military contractors/mercenaries. The role of these soldiers is, as is has been since the start of the occupation, to prop up the U.S.'s allies in the Iraqi government - and to do so with violence, against those factions in Iraq which, for a host of diverse reasons, would like to change or replace that government. All of which is to say that armed conflict continues in Iraq, and the American military is still financially and physically committed to one side in that conflict. The war is still on; the only thing that's changed is the propaganda. Whether Wikipedia endorses that propaganda is up to us. Fumoses (talk) 19:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment I think we have come to the Majority Consensus that the War is not yet over, so I think it is time to get rid of the August 19th End Date and revert back to Present —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 17:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

On Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Verifiability trumps consensus. If you want to claim that combat operations are continuing please provide something from Wikipedia:Reliable_sources that contradicts the president and pentagons statements. Otherwise it is Wikipedia:NOR. Thanks.V7-sport (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The Combat Operation Phase has ended although the "Assist and Advise" Phase is still on-going and is still part of the war. This Article is supposed to be about the War as a whole- the initial invasion, the counter-insurgency that followed and now the post counter-insurgency (Assist and Advise) phase. What Obama declared was the end of the Combat Phase Not the end of the Iraq War Altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 03:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The state department has sated that "the war is over", see sources. V7-sport (talk) 21:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Xavier Green told you best and I am also saying it. The combat operations of the US may be over but this is not just a US war but an Iraqi one also and they are still fighting and until there is a statement the Iraqi government has concluded combat operations the war is still preaty much on. And you should remove yourself from this discussion since you are like Xavier put it US-centric on this issue and are not neutral on this point.Diefgross (talk) 22:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Please remember Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith as well as Wikipedia:Verifiability. That would be splendid and awesome of you! Thanks! V7-sport (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You have yet to verify that the Iraqi government considers the war over, if all of the combatants have not ceased fighting than the war is ongoing, that is the definition of warfare (combat between belligerents).XavierGreen (talk) 21:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You have yet to post anything that the Iraqi government considers itself to be at war with itself. V7-sport (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

No One has said that the "War" is over, just that the "Combat Phase" is over, if the War was over the US Military Death Count in Iraq should have stopped but it hasn't, at least 10 Deaths have occurred in Iraq since the end of Combat Operations and they have ALL been listed as casualties of the Iraq War (and not some special peace-keeping mission or anything along those lines of something outside a War). I agree that we have entered a New Phase of the War (more than likely our 3rd Overall) but we are still in War as a whole. No verifiable references have said anything about the "War" being over (just the "Combat Phase"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 03:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The US State department has said that the war is over. Continuing to call the war "ongoing" because there were acts of violence in Iraq is original research. Specifically, "WP:SYNTHESIS" ("Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.") V7-sport (talk) 09:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

A compromise would be to list the date of Operation Iraqi Freedom and then the date of Operation Dawn, as is done in the status section.Blaylockjam10 (talk) 10:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

True although it still lists the War as "ending" is inaccurate then, also saying that US deaths are still listed as casulties of the Iraq was (and thus the War is still ongoing) is NOT Original Research because ICasulties lists them as so (which IS a source)- http://icasualties.org/Iraq/Fatalities.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.40.217 (talk) 14:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Not over - All sides - Arabs, Kurds, American troops - are still fighting and killing each other. 150 people died this week. War is not over. OmarKhayyam (talk) 11:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

[1] ttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/31/AR2010083105193.html

[2] ttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/08/18/2010-08-18_troops_out_of_iraq_cross_border_drawing_war_to_close_50k_remain_to_advise_train.html

[3] ttp://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/08/20/the-war-is-over-115875-22500208/

[4] ttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0115-02.htm

[5] ttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/world/middleeast/14military.html?_r=1&scp=8&sq=diyala&st=cse

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