Talk:Internet water army

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 October 2018 and 12 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): FangzhuLu, Shulydiasun. Peer reviewers: Lilyzzf, Erujhaider, Jlfriedman4.

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Objection to Estnot's Reversion and Misleading Edit Summary

What I removed did not have any source. Sourced contents related to the 50-cent army were re-organized into a new section instead of thrown about everywhere. The claim that the hirees were paid 50 cents is actually refuted by the source. An explanation has been added. WikiwiLimeli (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ironically your objections themselves appear to be lumped together and thrown about all over the place which makes a productive discussion on it impossible. Can you please put in clearer form, preferably bullet-point, about what exactly it is that you have problems with? Estnot (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You keep changing your story. At first accusing me of removing so-called high-quality sourced material when in fact I didn't remove anything that was verifiable. As I have already discussed here, before your second reversion, the version you support which claims that hirees are paid 50 cents is in fact refuted by the source. Now you come up with something like "lumped together" AND "thrown about all over the place" which makes no physical sense.

The biggest problem is that the internet water army is not the same thing as the 50 cent army. Here's a quote from the very source. (begin quote)Thus, 50c party members are distinct from ... “internet water army” (网络水军), which refers to for-hire astroturfers working for and advancing the interests of companies and other actors willing to pay their fees. None are known to be organized groups.(end quote)^[1] Looking through the rest of the source material, there's nothing suggesting 50 cent army is precursor or background to the internet water army. The version of the article before my edits was misleading and deceptive, split references to the 50 cent army in differet sections for no good reason, not always sourced, sprinkled with synthesis or original research, instead of having a distinct, clearly differentiated section just for the 50 cent army with clearly sourced content and additional information. WikiwiLimeli (talk) 06:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. "The private Internet Water Army operations parallel the official 50 Cent Party propagandist Internet commentators hired by the government of the People's Republic of China or the Chinese Communist Party." Not sourced. Original research. Internet water army not the same and not parallel of the official 50 cent party, which is government-only (never private) and likely unpaid for commenting. (begin quote) We also found no evidence that 50c party members were actually paid fifty cents or any other piecemeal amount. Indeed, no evidence exists that the authors of 50c posts are even paid extra for this work. We cannot be sure of current practices in the absence of evidence but, given that they already hold government and Chinese Communist Party (CCP) jobs, we would guess this activity is a requirement of their existing job or at least rewarded in performance reviews.(end quote)^[1]

2. "Chinese "Internet navy" Wangluo shuijun were preceded by government and private organizations that paid professional Internet commentators. Governmental programs of social media manipulation are found worldwide. China's 50 Cent Party (named from the 0.5 yuan payment per posting) trains and employs tens of thousands of online commentators to promote the PRC party line and control public opinion on microblogs, bulletin board systems, and chatrooms.[4]" Verification failed. No suggestion that one is precursor to the other. Appears to be WP:OR or SYNTH. WikiwiLimeli (talk) 06:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

3. "There is some difference between internet water army and 50 Cent Party. The concept of 50 Cent Party is narrower since it only refers to paid posters who deflect political discussions and post any positive and supporting reviews related with the central government or CCP. According to a Harvard University study in 2017, it was estimated that there are 448 million social media comments fabricated by the "50 cent party" hired by Chinese government at the time.[4] These comments avoid touching upon controversial and sensitive issues.[4]" The claim about being paid for posting is refuted as shown above. These are general statements about a different subject and should not go into the Features section specific to internet water army, which was why I made a separate section for everything verifiable about 50 cent army. The whole article has a copy edit template specifically naming 'cohesion', which was improved by my edits.WikiwiLimeli (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest that you take this up with user:Amigao as she has made a fair number of the most recent edits on this article and User:Horse Eye's Back as he was the one who made the initial expurgating edit. They can perhaps give you a much more in-depth explanation of their objections as they seem to have spent more time on this article than I have. I am not the author of any of this information and only reverted you on much more limited grounds. Estnot (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging User:Horse Eye's Back as he was the one who made the initial expurgating edit Estnot (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My main issue was the pointy quotes pulling from the paper, it felt like an odd twist to the author’s conclusions. Although looking at their explanation here I think the issue is just a failure to understand the paper and not malicious. The page as it currently stands post user:Amigao’s edits looks much improved to me so I think that this discussion is history. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through user:Amigao's reference (CSSN), its author treats (a) voluntary/self-organized users, (b) 50 cent army, and (c) private marketing/PR campaigns (sometimes hired by rivaling firms), all under the umbrella term "Internet Water Army" and expresses approval of type (a), disapproval of types (b) and (c). Chinese regulators often also disapproves of type (c), which shouldn't extend to type (a) or (b). Another reference (Sixth Tone) mostly equates IWA with type (c) only. I still prefer having 50 cent party mostly in its own section, and type (a) as well. So in the intro we should make clear the different types referred to by the term IWA and flesh out the 3 types a bit more (currently listed under Features>>Types). Also mention that this article is focused mostly on type (c). WikiwiLimeli (talk) 07:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b King, Gary; Pan, Jennifer; Margarete, Roberts. "How the Chinese Government Fabricates Social Media Posts for Strategic Distraction, not Engaged Argument". pp. 2, 10, 11. Archived from the original on 2018-11-09. Retrieved 2018-11-09.

The usage of semicolons would make Hemingway kill himself again.

) 85.230.203.224 (talk) 20: 44, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

[HarvardStudy-1] King, Gary; Pan, Jennifer; Margarete, Roberts. "How the Chinese Government Fabricates Social Media Posts for Strategic Distraction, not Engaged Argument". pp. 2, 10, 11. Archived from the original on 2018-11-09. Retrieved 2018-11-09.

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