Talk:Horse markings

Black Points

What about a bay horse with black cannons up to it's kness & up to it's hocks, what do you call that in america ? In Ireland & U.K. it's called black points. Culnacreann 17:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Same name here. Thing is, ALL bay horses have black points, that's what makes them a bay. So they aren't really "markings" in that they aren't a unique pattern that individually identifies a given horse the way a blaze, or, to take a non-white marking, a Bend-Or spot might be. It's the effect of the Agouti gene on a black base coat. There is no such thing as a bay horse without black points. Thus, bay as a color and the black points associated with it are described in the bay (color) article and the equine coat color article.

That said, I note I did insert a comment about the striping of dun horses here. I guess to be consistent, maybe we should either mention both, or mention neither. Let me think about it a bit and see if I can figure out an appropriate tweak. Stay tuned Montanabw 18:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yellow eyes

I read somewhere that horses can have yellow eyes. This true? 66.63.86.156 13:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Horses with the champagne gene can have "amber" eyes, sort of a light brown, the same gene may create sort of a turquiose-greenish shade as well. They can have blue eyes too, in some cases, particularly if they have two copies of the cream gene.Montanabw^(talk) 04:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I have donate able pictures of Bay-Black or Dark bay horses with yellow eyes. I have read online it can be called Goat or Tiger eyes. I am also looking for more information.Arsdelicata (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd want to see them. Champagne gene can create amber or green eyes in some cases, but true yellow like some cats? Kind of doubt that, but if you have photos...Oh, and "black-bay" is just "brown" to some people, and so we are kind of trying to lean toward "dark bay" as one of those not-so-loaded ways of saying the same thing (grin). By the way, do pasos carry the pearl gene or the champagne gene? We desperately need images to illustrate those two articles. Montanabw^(talk) 03:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw maybe you can tell me what kinds of bay these are. The Spanish words are different, even from country to country. I'd love to get a picture of a Champagne or Perle horse.

Maybe Pasos carry the gene, but I have never seen one. Inserting a gallery just so you see how commom this is in the Puerto Rican Paso Paso Fino... They can have black even blue eyes also though, as well as part color, e.g. Blue/black, or one blue, one black.

• 
  Puerto Rican Paso Fino Horse with bright yellow eyes
• 
  Picture Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino Mare with yellow eyes taken at Dulce Sueño fair in Guayama, Puerto Rico
• 

Thanks. I personally would call those eyes "amber," the first horse I'd call a blood bay, the other two LOOK "dark bay," which is synonymous with "black bay" and "brown" and "mahogany bay", all thought to be linked to the sooty (gene). However, with the light eyes, they may all three actually be smoky black, possibly a pseudo-double dilute with a cream gene and maybe the pearl gene. There are genetic tests for these genes, and pedigrees will also tell much (ie, do they have palomino, cremello or perlino parents?) Just follow the wikilinks to Pearl gene or Champagne gene and see what you get. Take a look at the various color article (and more to the point, the external links to the better-quality sources that we used in the articles, such as the UC Davis site and The Horse magazine) and see what you think. Equine coat color genetics is a really fascinating area... Montanabw^(talk) 01:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Love those articles you posted above. These horses trace back to bays with similar eyes, no Palomino, buckskin, to my knowledge. skin color is always dark, registry requirements ask that horses have DNA on file and even DNA verified parentage to compete in fairs, yet color testing is rare still, and also not demanded. I read all the links. UCDAVIS has no mention of kits to test for this eye color. I'd love to know what this is ... Arsdelicata (talk) 22:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

How interesting. Eye color, skin color and coat color are often linked in horses. Maybe check out the research links on the champagne gene and pearl gene pages. For sure, those two genes can affect coat and eye color both. Maybe cream gene too. In particular, I think the UC Davis link to its dissussion of the Pearl Gene (also called the "Barlink factor" by some) DEFINITELY links the gene to some breeds of Spanish origin, and if not Pasos in particular, then one of the Latin American breeds...you could maybe even email those photos to UCD and ask them what they think is going on. It would be really interesting. If you know the owners, maybe they'd send in DNA for testing. Montanabw^(talk) 05:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Montanabw, Well, what I get from pearl gene is that it is recessive, so nothing happens to bay horse's eyes or coat with one copy. Then Champagne gene is simple dominant, so bays with it automatically get the dilute coat, eyes, and skin. Now, cream gene maybe, but the coat is not diluted in these horses, and they trace back to bays with similar eyes. But, I know of cream gene horses, with one copy of the cream gene,like palomino that have dark eyes. will e-mail to UCD, Good Idea. I also have loads more examples and some more pics. looked up wall eyes, and that is said to be blue. Arsdelicata (talk) 07:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Just adding that I've been watching this. How very interesting! There is so much we don't know about genetic controls of pigment distribution. The more we learn, the more we will find there is to discover. I agree that this is probably a novel situation, not linked to any of our common "dilute" genes. Countercanter (talk) 15:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. The only thing that makes any possible sense is some variation of a dilution gene acting on a black coat to make the horses look bay, but I agree that the single dilutes don't seem to affect eye color this dramatically when heterozygous. Who knows, Arsdelicata, you may prompt a whole new area of research! I mean, this is even weirder than brindle. Also, if this stumps Countercanter, who is our resident horse genetics genius, we KNOW there is something pretty unusual here. What fun! Montanabw^(talk) 03:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to be hung up on a coat color dilution. Typically we see changes in eye color related to changes in coat color, right? This happens because many of the genetic pathways that produce skin-to-hair pigment are the same used to make eye pigment. However, as we can see from the Tobiano, Roan, Lp and Sb1 genes, there must be *other* pathways as well, which serve ONLY the skin/coat or ONLY the eyes. Even when skin affected by these patterns surrounds the eye, there is often no change in eye color. Since we can see that there are genes that affect only skin/coat pigment, there must also be genes that affect only the eye pigment.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the body has a genetic spell-check. In an organism with one copy of a dysfunctional gene, the body will often stall the resulting protein to keep it from interfering with the functional protein that comes from the functional copy. This happens in frames, with another relevant twist. In heterozygous frames, the dysfunctional proteins are not used in the innervation of the gut. As a result, the gut is normal; it is not just "sufficiently" innervated, but perfectly normal. When, as in the homozygote, there is no "back-up copy" to use, the gut is not innervated. This is in contrast to the skin and coat, which is affected in both forms. It seems that since there is no detriment to the animal, the genetic spell-check does not need to prune out the dysfunctional protein when it affects only the skin.

In summary, there are two likely possibilities:

1. That the yellow eyes are the result of a perfectly random mutation that affects *only* the eye pigment and not the skin or coat.

2. That the yellow eyes are the result of a perfectly random mutation that affects both eye and skin pigment, but that the body disposes of the dysfunctional protein in the skin and not the eyes.

PS. I believe I read that such spell-checking may have a role in some of the variations of expression in white patterning. Weak spell-check, loud expression. And so forth. Not that it need to have any implications otherwise. Countercanter (talk) 14:55, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

On one hand, that is totally fascinating (And Arsdelicata, by "frame" we are discussing the frame overo and lethal white syndrome. On the other hand, I think my head just exploded--again! (This is the third time tonight, the second was over convert template syntax and the first was Arsdelicata's explaining how many paso horses there are. Someone please tell me that it's just the Xmas rush and that I'm not developing early senility or something! LOL! But CC-- basically, have you any research on this stuff? Would be fascinating if we could figure it out? And isn't it just easier to explain it as some variant of champagne acting on a black or sooty coat? LOL! (Me want simple, me like simple, me want santa to bring cookies and milk. Me want to be five years old and not have to think about gait biodynamics and genetics of color! %P ) (eyes crossed AND head exploding!) Montanabw^(talk) 05:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

While searching for books on Pasos to help the articles I stumbled on an ok picture of the actual sire of the mare in the middle pic.Father of Cute yellow/amber eyes mare I had seen him in magazines, ( he no longer lives) look real close at the eyes, not the highest resolution. but it is there! I have my own pic of the sire of that first pic blood bay. same color bay, with the light eyes and a big sabino blaze. BTW they all have different parents the horses above. This is not new, but I can only find references to light eyes, and not specifically amber in this breed. So I am not Sure what can be mentioned if nothing was published just spoken stories, old pics and common local knowledge. I wrote to UCDavis, could not send the pics as they have a form for contact, but mentioned I could e-mail them and attach the pics. The genetics is out of my league, but I understood and enjoyed the possible reasons. As well as the Overo, Frame, etc stuff LOL yes simple would be nice Arsdelicata (talk) 09:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I would love to see a written explanation somewhere, somehow. The only eye color things I know of are the blue eyes produced by dilution genes or white coloring, the occasional slight lightening of brown eyes to a dark amber in heterozygous dilutes, plus the amber, green or other odd colors produced by champagne. The one thing I DO know is that the Pearl gene is definitely linked to Spanish colonial breeds, and so it doesn't surprise me that some of this stuff is there, but it would be great to hear what is going on with it. I'm sure you will be the first to tell us if you find out anything. This is really fascinating! Montanabw^(talk) 05:24, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

ok, Found a reference, from Dr Carlos Gaztambide book ( English) Breeding Better Paso Fino Horses) 1981. page 37 "Soñador" (dreamer) transmitted the great size of Copa. <snip> " He was Mahogany bay with one white fetlock,( and blaze, sniping for brevity.) " His eyes were yellow like the Great "Dulce Sueño" and "Regalo." Arsdelicata (talk) 05:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

All we need is a scientific explanation. Has anyone emailed UC Davis and asked them? Montanabw^(talk) 21:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, I e-mailed when you gave the idea, through the contact form. maybe someone has a more direct contact there. I have not gotten an answer yet.Arsdelicata (talk) 21:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Try emailing the individual researchers, their contact info is usually buried, but it's there. Search for which person is doing the bulk of the color gene research on the dilution factor genes, maybe the person who did the work on the champagne and pearl dilution stuff, and email them first. My experience with UCD is that they are kind of bad about communicating, but if you sort of ask around, someone eventually gets back to you. Squeaky wheel... Montanabw^(talk) 23:23, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Good Idea Montana, Did this and got a reply. Here is a snip "To my knowledge there has not been any molecular work on yellow eye in the Paso Fino." I have to send them more pedigrees and stuff to see if they can determine a mode of inheritance. Arsdelicata (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting! You just might be starting something! See cerebellar abiotrophy -- when we started this article, there was no DNA test. As of just a few months ago, there is now. I think publicity here helped get the ball rolling on the research! Montanabw^(talk) 18:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I saw the horse in the Video, it looks happy despite it's condition. Great that there is a test now. Found a reference to yellow eyes in Horses being an admirable trait here. " The stallion selected for a sire should be as compact as possible. A long belly and a short back, a yellow eye and a thick thigh have been considered pretty good marks."USA agriculture Report 1867 Arsdelicata (talk) 08:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Been working on this hard the past month, gotten palominos with blue, yellow and dark eyes, buckskin with yellowish blue, bright yellow, and dark eyes, young chestnuts with blue eyes and older ones with yellow eyes as well as dark, young bays with blue eyes, yellow and dark as well. It will take a while though, I have to send it all in and then wait for an answer which is not guaranteed. It seems though that the color of thepalomino mare's blue eyes posted on the creme talk page has to do with the yellow eyed bays, as it has a bay half sister with yellow eyes. So, if anyone comes over literature on this,or pics or info, please post. :-)Arsdelicata (talk) 04:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

References

Stockings of animals in general

Many animals have stocking markings in addition to horses: giraffes, cats, dogs, etc., but I could find no Wikipedia article in evidence. I would relish some advice on how to progress this inclusive article as it is an areas outside of my ken. Please chat on my talk page if you may be of assistance.
Blessings
B9 hummingbird hovering ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

there are alot of differnt markings  there is mpore than one blaze but alot of pepplendonot relize  there is a small blaze and a wide blaze

xx yhoo are welcome —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.203.132 (talk) 15:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

New citation

[1] Inheritance of face markings and leg markings, but not belly spots, linked to Kit, Kit ligand, and slightly to Pax3 in SWBs. Countercanter (talk) 14:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating. Just limited to one breed, though? Montanabw^(talk) 00:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC) On a quick skim, what they are calling "splash" for that first image of the foal is what we in the USA sometimes call Sabino. Though the Icelandics look like "real" splash pintos. FYI, did you get my email on the deafness in Splash Paints? [2] (Also still grumbling over the writer who alleged that Khemosabi was splash in the "color linked to deafness" sense.) I'd be fascinated to see this study replicated with, for example, the Budweiser Clydesdales, which have similar markings, but get called "Sabino." Montanabw^(talk) 00:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in the sense that SWBs are one breed. I got your email, and will try to respond tonight. You've actually united 2 threads that make an important point: what one person calls "Splash" may be called something else, somewhere else; I believe that this is why the article you sent me does not jump out with the term right away. Countercanter (talk) 13:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

And the image of the SWB on the cover of the article would definitely be called a "Sabino" if it was an Arab. I don't know what the Clydesdale people are doing with any of this, but the same markings are so very common there, and so far UC Davis has yet to identify SB-1 in Clydesdales or in Arabs. Yet, I also have not heard any claims that deafness is a problem in either breed (and, if I may pun, I keep my ear pretty close to the ground on genetic diseases in Arabs, so I'd probably know about it.) But splash overo does have such a connection. (Now I WILL argue that Arabs may develop "ESH" -- "Equine Selective Hearing-itis" but that's an entirely different problem that I suspect could also be called "WHC" -- "Wimpy human control-ology" LOL!) I'd personally be grateful if anyone has studied rabicano, too. That's another confusing thing. Montanabw^(talk) 23:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Research update

2016 article on how white markings develop: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/06/piebald-mystery-solved-scientists-discover-mutated-gene-animals . Montanabw^(talk) 04:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)