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Talk:Horizon: An American Saga – Chapter 1

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Requested move 28 February 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Despite the final vote tallies, there is no consensus for the move, the opposes had a more policy based argument, and moving the page would have added a unnecessary disambiguator, the article may still be split later, but it is too soon as of right now. Geardona (talk to me?) 01:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Horizon: An American Saga → Horizon: An American Saga – Chapter 1 — In addition to including the subtitle on the poster, we should create a separate article for the second chapter. These are two (potentially four) separate movies. The official page for the movie on the Warner Bros. website includes the title with Chapter 1. ScottSullivan01 (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support renaming this page since Horizon: An American Saga should be for the film series. 199.127.61.137 (talk) 12:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support these are all seperate films in an overall series. TheMovieGuy
Oppose For a number of reasons. First, not sure that format meets the naming conventions for film. More importantly, there isn't enough content to support a single article at this time. Propsing a move for more content is putting the cart before the horse. You may or may not ever produce a substantial enough article to require multiple articles. That should be done first and then if necessary, split. (Also, there's a procedural problem here - you've got two open discussions - one for a split and one for a move. Although neither is necessary for the reasons stated, you should be starting with the split first, and let that go complete first before requesting a move for the remainder - or do them as a single proposal.) ButlerBlog (talk) 03:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- the film series was originally announced to include four feature films. The fact that the first 2 are being marketed as a "two part event" is superfluous. They will be four distinct movies, with the next two entering production later this year (see this Reference for context).--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 19:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename per official title and use in sources. Yeoutie (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Splitting proposal

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NO CONSENSUS
There is no consensus for the split.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I propose that the section about Horizon: An American Saga be split into a separate article called Horizon: An American Saga – Chapter 2. Each individual film should have its own article. Thoughts? ScottSullivan01 (talk) 00:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support These are all individual films in part of an overall series so all of them should have separate articles. It's like the avatar films or lord of the rings or etc. any other film series. Fear street. Lots of examples. TheMovieGuy
TheMovieGuy (talk) 00:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - You're putting the cart before the horse. There isn't enough content to support a single article yet, let alone 2. This is a start class article with only 7k of prose. So for a size split it's not even close. see WP:WHENSPLIT Build out the article first, then propose a split (or bold split). But there is not a reason to do that at this time. (Also, you have an open MR - you should actually close this and allow one discussion at time)
ButlerBlog (talk) 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revisit

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With the fact that production has commenced on Chapter 3 (which you can read at this attached source[1] the official splitting of each individual film into an article, should be what is now completed.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheMovieGuy, Butlerblog, Yeoutie, HAL333, NathanielTheBold, Yeoutie, and Rusted AutoParts: -- here is an update on the topic.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 18:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NORUSH. First two parts aren't yet released completely, need to see how substantial info there is for Part 2 first. Rusted AutoParts 18:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NORUSH is just an essay. These are separate films which have either entered or completed production. If the sources are there, I see no reason not to split off the articles. It's confusing as is. ~ HAL333 00:36, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The bulk of the sources here service the first chapter. As it stands, sources for chapter 2 are very meager. To me our options are:
  • Retitle this to Horizon: An American Saga Chapters 1 & 2 after 2 releases and we’re getting close to 3 releasing, this meaning a page for Chapters 3 & 4
  • Split Chapter 2 off closer to its release when more details towards it are available/after it releases so we can include Chapter 2 specific reviews.
  • Leave the page as is and update as each new Chapter releases. It is called a Saga after all.
The more likely path is the second option. NORUSH may be an essay, but it really is true. We shouldn’t hurry a weaker product out just because. Rusted AutoParts 03:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Fleming Jr., Mike (May 13, 2024). "Kevin Costner Reveals The Epic Journey Of His Cannes Western 'Horizon' And Has His Say On 'Yellowstone' Rancor". Deadline. Retrieved May 18, 2024.

Critical reception

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This provides a good summary of what critics at the festival thought of the film, and is better than just robotic RT/MC numbers per MOS:FILMCRITICS. "There are not a large number of reviews for the post-Civil War Western tale so far, but some of the early critiques are pretty harsh. The most common complaint is the film doesn’t feel like cinema so much as a trio of back-to-back episodes of a new TV series, and one that’s rather jumbled at that, as the film jumps between four central storylines. Some are even comparing it to Francis Ford Coppola’s Megalopolis, another decades-in-the-making directorial passion project that has drawn critical fire at the festival." Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chapters

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Are we really attempting to cover all four chapters in this article? That is not only infeasible but completely out of step with convention. To my knowledge, no other film split into multiple parts have been consolidated into a single article, and the result would likely violate WP:TOOLONG and circumvent WP:NFF as well. Not only that, but how are we going to structure this article? Have four subheadings under each section? The info regarding Chapter 2, since it has already been filmed, needs to be split into a new page, while the info regarding Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 should be moved to the draftspace per WP:NFF until filming has commenced. InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a discussion above about this topic already. My stance is, at this moment, we don't have enough content in regards to the other 3 chapters to merit their own spinoff articles. At this moment. I don't see why there's such a mad dash to get them made. Rusted AutoParts 19:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's confusing to readers and circumvents WP:NFF. The fact that the article already has an unnecessary "Chapter One" subheading under Critical response shows how messy it already is, and how messier it will likely become. If Chapter Two meets GNG, then it should be moved to a separate article. If it does not, it should be incubated in the draftspace, as NFF states. Chapter Three and Chapter Four have no business here and blatantly violates NFF. This shouldn't be thought of as a "split" in the conventional sense, but more of undoing an improper squishing of four articles into one. InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the third film is already filming, we could just start a film series article (per WP:FILMSERIES) to house each film's details on a high level. Generally speaking, a film that has started filming is highly likely to be released, compared to before starting. In addition to "Critical response" not looking great, the infobox looks awkward with the two chapters' information being shoehorned in. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 20:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. This article is trying to double as a film series article. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How in the world is it "confusing"? The lead paragraph stipulates the article is about a four part film. All I'm getting at is at this moment, the vast amount of content about Horizon as a whole is in regards to Chapter 1. We only have a couple details about Chapter 2, and the only thing about Chapter 3 is it started filming. Do we have any details about which cast is being retained for the following chapters? Where did the other chapters film and when? My point is why we're so eager to make a Chapter 2 and 3 page that'll be pretty damn anemic and only barely satisfy NFF. Why is it so ridiculous to think perhaps waiting for the Chapters official releases to split off their own individual pages because at least that way we can include critical reception with it. Rusted AutoParts 20:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is your plan to create "Chapter 1/One" (Which is it? The article isn't consistent.) subheadings under each section? Because while the Production section may be roughly the same for all four chapters (at this stage), the article doesn't make it clear whether the cast members listed will appear in all four chapters or just one. There will be four different plots, and the release info will be different for all four, as will reception. For some reason, I'm also seeing a "Sequels" section that talks about ... Chapters 2–4? Not sure what's going on there. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the reasons you just listed are why I am wishing to wait for each film to release to spinoff their details to their own pages. I just want to have each of their articles to have enough details about the film in question. Right now we just have a meager few about 2, almost nothing about 3. At that point my POV would be that this page becomes Horizon: An American Saga - Chapter 1 with new articles for each instalment and a separate page for the franchise entire (if it's merited). Rusted AutoParts 02:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason why this can't happen right now. This is taking WP:NORUSH to the extreme. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notified WT:FILM. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely not taking NORUSH to the extreme. It's not extreme to want more information about the next chapters to exist, before their respective articles are produced. You're being absurd. And I resent the way you described my intentions on WP:FILM. Rusted AutoParts 07:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was not referring to you specifically at WT:FILM, nor assuming bad faith, unless you were solely responsible for structuring the article this way. I see above that there were other editors earlier who supported this approach. InfiniteNexus (talk) 08:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding my 2 cents. It is very confusing for the article to discuss all chapters throughout but also have a sequels section with further details about the later chapters. This either needs to be about all four chapters, in which case the details in the sequels section should be moved to the correct place, or this needs to be about the first chapter only and any details about the other chapters should be moved to the sequel section. I would recommend the latter since that is generally what is done, and it will be easier to split off details for future chapters once the subsections of the sequels section get big enough. - adamstom97 (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When put this way it would seem more sensical to rebrand the page for Chapter 1, and over time create the individual chapters. Rusted AutoParts 01:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well then, please go ahead. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rusted AutoParts: so far I have seen no movement on your part in consolidating the current article into one film. It seemed as though the consensus from the ongoing discussion was do so, until more details are released about each individual plot. I will go and request that an admin renames the current article and do my best to clean it up in its current state. That being said @InfiniteNexus, Erik, and HAL333: I have been working on a film series article for all four movies since as far back as 2022, which you can view here.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone ahead and cleaned up the current article to remove the "Chapter One" and "Chapter Two" confusing division. The article now only states details about the first film. Once an admin moves the page, we can put all/any information about Chapter 2, 3, and 4 in their respective places. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 13:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Admin assistance

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I have requested a move, as seen below.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 June 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Horizon: An American Saga → Horizon: An American Saga – Chapter 1 – As discussed ad nauseum in various sections of this article, the Horizon: An American Saga film series is four distinct movies. As-is the current article is confusing to the average reader at best, and very messy as well. Costner has described the film series as four movies in each of his interviews. There are numerous examples of this with Atlanta News First and Fox 5 Atlanta here as just two examples. As discussed by other editors, the current article needs to be for the first installment while other individual pages can/should be created for its sequels. There is a film series draft currently being worked on, which has been worked on as far back as 2022. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support since Chapter 2 content is too shoehorned into this setup intended for a single film (as evidenced by the infobox and using chapter-label section headings). Film topics are heavily weighted in terms of secondary sources by how they were received, so this scope should be focused on Chapter 1 and how it was received and complemented by other detail. (If films shared a production, there can be a production split-off article straddling both, with each film's article having a summary section of it.) Also support the creation of a film-series article to capture aggregate detail on a high level. How Chapter 2 is received, with related detail, should be in its own scope. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: For what it's worth, I have now submitted the Draft:Horizon: An American Saga (film series) article for review. As-is it has various details/refs substantial enough for a move to the mainspace. Furthermore as the first 2 movies are in post-production/pending release, and the 3rd movie is currently filming -- such a page can be within the mainspace. The page will be expanded with additional details as they release. DisneyMetalhead (talk) 02:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think if anything, this page should remain Horizon: An American Saga, or be changed to Horizon: An American Saga (film series) CNC33 (. . .talk) 04:27, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The former option was made firmly clear to me as being a no-go. The latter is unnecessary as it seems there is already a page for it in existence (Despite none of the four planned movies even existing yet but I digress). Rusted AutoParts 06:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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And just like that, right after the article was published -- there is now a notability tag on the page. If anyone has opinions one way or the other, please go and states so there as well.--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the tag for now, given the fact that there were no differing opinions on the need for a film series article in this talk page. Additionally, the series of movies falls within Wikipedia:Notability #General notability guidelines and Wikipedia:Notability (films) guidelines as well (various reliable sources and references, with significant coverage). DisneyMetalhead (talk) 23:45, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Horizon flyer

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Seen throughout the movie is a paper flyer telling about the town of Horizon. How great a opportunity it is for people. The flyer is printed by a man named Pickering. Horizon is smack dab in Apache territory. 2600:1006:B123:669E:0:4D:55B7:F301 (talk) 07:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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