Talk:Historical reliability of the Quran

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Historical reliability of the Quran article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Islam: Shi'a Islam High‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Shi'a Islam task force.

Religious texts (defunct)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religious texts, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Religious textsWikipedia:WikiProject Religious textsTemplate:WikiProject Religious textsReligious texts articles

History High‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bahá'í Faith Low‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bahá'í Faith, a coordinated attempt to increase the quality and quantity of information about the Baháʼí Faith on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.Bahá'í FaithWikipedia:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithTemplate:WikiProject Bahá'í FaithBahá'í Faith articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Religion High‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages High‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Philosophy Low‑importance

	Philosophy portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Theology Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Theology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Theology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TheologyWikipedia:WikiProject TheologyTemplate:WikiProject TheologyTheology articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Arab world High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Western Asia Low‑importance

	Asia portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Western AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Western AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Western AsiaWestern Asia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bible Low‑importance

	Bible portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

redoing the article

There are two wikipedia articles on the bible with similar names:

The difference between them is described in this disambiguization note:

"This article (Biblical Criticism) is about the academic treatment of the Bible as a historical document. For criticisms made against the Bible as a source of reliable information or ethical guidance, see Criticism of the Bible.

I propose doing the same with "Criticism of the Quran and this article, which I propose to rename to something like Historical Criticism of the Quran or Origin of the Quran according to academic historians. (The phrase "Quranic criticism" would make a nice symmetry with "Biblical criticism", but nobody uses it in the same way as "Biblical criticism" according to google.) --Louis P. Boog (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new lede

How would the redone article be different? Here is my proposed new lede:

Historical and scholarly criticism of the Quran (or secular Quranic studies) involves investigating and verifying the Quran's origin, text, composition, history,^[1] in a manner similar to Biblical criticism^[2] (and unrelated to criticism in the sense of "expressing disapproval"). Issues examined might include variations in text among different versions/manuscripts; the intended audience (such as whether the audience was assumed to be familiar with the Christian Bible); puzzles of unclear letters, words and phrases, unexplained by early exegetes; themes and stories found in other earlier texts^[3] (such as narratives about Alexander the Great) and religious works (especially the bible, apocryphal gospels and Jewish legends);^[4] patterns and repetition of text suggesting oral transmission, etc.

As the holy book of Islam, the Quran is believed by orthodox Muslims to have been sent down by Allah (God) and revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jabreel (Gabriel), and to be divine, perfect, and unchangeable. Consequently many not only see no need for investigation of the Quran^[5] (traditional Islamic religious sciences having already provided "all the answers to questions posed by modern western orientalists" except those "that issue from the rejection" of the Quran's "Divine Origin"),^[6] but many find the field "disturbing and offensive",^[1] "dangerous",^[7] and even an "assault",^[1] on the holy book, and some Muslims have been punished for attempting it.^{[Note 1]}^[11]^[12]^{[Note 2]}

Scholarly criticism of the Quran is thus a relatively new area of study,^[15]^[16] but has been practiced by secular, (mostly) Western scholars (such as John Wansbrough, Joseph Schacht, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook) who set aside doctrines of its divinity, perfection, unchangeability, etc. accepted by Muslim Islamic scholars;^[1]

^ Taha Husain, the Egyptian "Dean of Arabic Literature", was "charged with blasphemy, forced to withdraw his book, and lost from his university post" in 1931 after publishing a book questioning the historical veracity of the Quran (Fi'ish-Shi-r al-Jahili)^[8]^[9]^[10]
^ "... when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second-story window by his students" at the University of Nablus in the West Bank.^[13]^[14]

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d LESTER, TOBY (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic. Retrieved 8 April 2019.
^ Religions of the world Lewis M. Hopfe – 1979 "Some Muslims have suggested and practiced textual criticism of the Quran in a manner similar to that practiced by Christians and Jews on their bibles. No one has yet suggested the higher criticism of the Quran."
^ Leirvik 2010, p. 33.
^ Leirvik 2010, pp. 33–34.
^ Hopfe, Lewis M. (1979). Religions of the world (PDF). Some Muslims have suggested and practiced textual criticism of the Quran in a manner similar to that practiced by Christians and Jews on their bibles. No one has yet suggested the higher criticism of the Quran.
^ Cite error: The named reference Nasr-2008 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference Islamicity-how was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not a Muslim, 1995: p.6
^ Ibn Warraq, The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, Prometheus Books, 2000, p.23
^ Dundes, Fables of the Ancients?, 2003: p.16
^ Cite error: The named reference (Jomier 1954:48) was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference ADFotA2003:13 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ STILLE, ALEXANDER (2 MARCH 2002). "Scholars Are Quietly Offering New Theories of the Koran". New York Times. Retrieved 15 May 2019. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Dundes, Fables of the Ancients?, 2003: p.11-12
^ Christian-Muslim relations: yesterday, today, tomorrow Munawar Ahmad Anees, Ziauddin Sardar, Syed Z. Abedin – 1991 For instance, a Christian critic engaging in textual criticism of the Quran from a biblical perspective will surely miss the essence of the quranic message. Just one example would clarify this point.
^ Studies on Islam Merlin L. Swartz – 1981 One will find a more complete bibliographical review of the recent studies of the textual criticism of the Quran in the valuable article by Jeffery, "The Present Status of Qur'anic Studies," Report on Current Research on the Middle East

--Louis P. Boog (talk)

Merge with Criticism of the Quran

After some thought, I believe the best way to proceed is to merge this article with Criticism of the Quran. Dividing the subject into "Criticism of the Quran and something like Historical Criticism of the Quran or Origin of the Quran according to academic historians, has its merits but there is also some overlap. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 03:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[11] Taha Husain, the Egyptian "Dean of Arabic Literature", was "charged with blasphemy, forced to withdraw his book, and lost from his university post" in 1931 after publishing a book questioning the historical veracity of the Quran (Fi'ish-Shi-r al-Jahili)^[8]^[9]^[10]

[16] "... when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second-story window by his students" at the University of Nablus in the West Bank.^[13]^[14]

[what-atlantic-1999-1] LESTER, TOBY (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?". Atlantic. Retrieved 8 April 2019.

[2] Religions of the world Lewis M. Hopfe – 1979 "Some Muslims have suggested and practiced textual criticism of the Quran in a manner similar to that practiced by Christians and Jews on their bibles. No one has yet suggested the higher criticism of the Quran."

[3] Leirvik 2010, p. 33.

[4] Leirvik 2010, pp. 33–34.

[5] Hopfe, Lewis M. (1979). Religions of the world (PDF). Some Muslims have suggested and practiced textual criticism of the Quran in a manner similar to that practiced by Christians and Jews on their bibles. No one has yet suggested the higher criticism of the Quran.

[Nasr-2008-6] Cite error: The named reference Nasr-2008 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Islamicity-how-7] Cite error: The named reference Islamicity-how was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[iWWINaM1995:6-8] Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not a Muslim, 1995: p.6

[9] Ibn Warraq, The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, Prometheus Books, 2000, p.23

[ADFotA2003:16-10] Dundes, Fables of the Ancients?, 2003: p.16

[(Jomier_1954:48)-12] Cite error: The named reference (Jomier 1954:48) was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[ADFotA2003:13-13] Cite error: The named reference ADFotA2003:13 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[STILLE-NYT-2-3-2002-14] STILLE, ALEXANDER (2 MARCH 2002). "Scholars Are Quietly Offering New Theories of the Koran". New York Times. Retrieved 15 May 2019. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[ADFotA2003:11-12-15] Dundes, Fables of the Ancients?, 2003: p.11-12

[17] Christian-Muslim relations: yesterday, today, tomorrow Munawar Ahmad Anees, Ziauddin Sardar, Syed Z. Abedin – 1991 For instance, a Christian critic engaging in textual criticism of the Quran from a biblical perspective will surely miss the essence of the quranic message. Just one example would clarify this point.

[18] Studies on Islam Merlin L. Swartz – 1981 One will find a more complete bibliographical review of the recent studies of the textual criticism of the Quran in the valuable article by Jeffery, "The Present Status of Qur'anic Studies," Report on Current Research on the Middle East

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]

[Note 1]

[11]

[12]

[Note 2]

[15]

[16]

[8]

[9]

[10]

[13]

[14]