Talk:Himara Revolt of 1596

When did the revolt occur

From all I see from the sources Athanasius got some weapons at Lecce and didn't do any revolt. Is the article true? --MorenaReka (talk) 01:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't verify the 1596 revolt, although in Himara revolts were a typical event that era. For example there was one in 1569.Alexikoua (talk) 09:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

@MorenaReka: Do not move the article without discussing. Noel Malcolm (28 May 2015). Agents of Empire: Knights, Corsairs, Jesuits and Spies in the Sixteenth-Century Mediterranean World. Penguin Books Limited. p. 45. ISBN 978-0-14-197836-9. Another passage dates it more specifically to the second half of 1596, when the revolt of the Himariots, led by Athanasios Riseas, was under way ....--Zoupan 11:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Chronology

We need to clarify the chronology of events. In January, Athanasius met with Basadonna. The uprising seems to have broken out in August. When he met with the Albanian captains (23 August), was the uprising underway or already quelled? When did he travel to Naples? Rome? @Alexikoua: do you find any information on this from Kontali (2011)?--Zoupan 22:17, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Kontali states that Athanasius prepared for another rebellion just after the failed military operation in Himara. Exact date isn't given but states it happened in August too. Kontali also mentions that after the defeat at the end of 1596 he moved from Himara to Lecce, Rome etc together with a delegation of local representatives. I assume Bartle describes Athanasius' preperations after this short and badly executed operation (meetings with chieftains-mercenaries, monthly payments that increased each month, visit to Lecce for support etc).Alexikoua (talk) 13:01, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Portrayal as Albanian revolt

There is information that various Greek nobles and leaders participated in the movement. Athanasios was a Greek from Mani, and Nikodemos&Simon Konstantinos who participated in the fights were Greeks. Spanish sources (Floristan etc) are clearly stating that "Greek and Albanian military figures participated". As such portraying it as an Albanian revolt falls into wp:POV.Alexikoua (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE is to be referred to here. The revolt was undertaken by 6000 Albanians from Himara, and there might have been 2~3 Greek commanders. The revolt is even explicitly described as an Albanian one, by a (not-outdated) source. There is no RS which says it was a Greek revolt. As an example, the 1611 Epirus revolt was maybe led by a Greek, but it was not a Greek revolt. Alltan (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The revolt is not described as Albanian one. There are no sources that name it as such. Floristan states that both Greek and Albanian military figures participates. There is nothing that supports a purely Albanian revolt. We have detailed descriptions of Greek participation prior - during - after the siege. Most important the head of this movement was a Greek. Labelling this as Albanian revolt is POV.Alexikoua (talk) 18:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Please counter my arguments, or I will have to to ask for oversight. Furthermore, the source about it being an Albanian revolt and it has been in the article since 2015 [1]. The argument about its leader being a Greek is irrelevant, as Bishop Dionysios of the Epirus revolt was also a Greek (according to the article at least), but all (reliable) researchers have consistently classified it as an Albanian revolt. The exact same scenario is also relevant here. Alltan (talk) 19:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The dif you offered doesn't describe it primarily as an Albanian revolt [[2]] which is a fresh new addition in lead [[3]]. Floristan and the rest of the in-depth bibliography point that it was a revolt that participated Greeks and Albanians under the leadership of a Greek. This can hardly make it a purely Albanian revolt which is wp:POV as a lead description. Spanish sources describe both Greeks and Albanians fighting in the conflicts and the siege of the Ottoman garrison. Alexikoua (talk)

You will need to provide a quote were Floristan calls it a "Greek revolt". Anything else is OR. Here is mine: "Andrei Pippidi a arătat că rascoala albanczilor din Himara (1596-1597) face parte dintr-o serie de mişcări de eliberare care se intind din Epir pină ia Sibenik, fiind conduse de arhiepiscopii de Ohrida, Ioachim, Gavriil şi Atanasie I. Rolul unui ..." This is the Romanian source which you removed without explanation. Until you provide something which opposes this view, the lede can not really change per Wiki policy.Alltan (talk) 02:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't support that it was a Greek revolt exclusively, I refer to Floristan which states that "Greeks and Albanians fought in this conflict", which is the neutral version for describing this military event. Floristan is a brand new sources while you point to a work of 1971. Kondali also states that it wasn't a purely Albanian revolt. Konstantinos Nicodemus and his brother who fought under 2-3,000 men were Greeks. As such you can easily see the weakness of portraying this as a purely Albanian revolt. To sum up: what makes you believe that a source from 1971 can outnumber all recent bibliography?Alexikoua (talk) 03:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That is not correct. Greek and Albanian officers participated in the fighting as part of the Spanish troops, as did many Italians by the way. They were soldier of the multinational Spanish army, not rebels. The locals of Himara who participated in the revolt are referred to by Floristan as Albanians, never as Greeks. Çerçok (talk) 09:37, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Care to provide the precise quote for this? There is absolutely nothing in the current text that confirms this (cited by Floristan).Alexikoua (talk) 02:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Given that there was a "multinational Spanish army", there is no way this can be characterized as a "Albanian revolt" plain and simple in the opening line of the lede. Khirurg (talk) 03:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

It's difficult to distinguish ethnicity under modern terms in articles that describe 16th century events, especially when bibliography is very reluctant and never labels this event under an ethnic umbrella term (a Romanian source of the dictatorship era is certainly not the best we can use).Alexikoua (talk) 04:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Umm what dictatorial political incentives did Romania have towards a 16th Century revolt in Himara? Alltan (talk) 05:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

You keep on groundless edit warring [[4]] no matter if there was also non-Albanian participation. However, I wonder Why do you removed Floristan this time? Alexikoua (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I am not edit warring though, and I already explained in the rv summary why I removed that part. Alltan (talk) 21:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Labelling this as Albanian from lead is OR. Since there is plenty of evidence of non-Albanian participation in the events this recent addition can't stay. It portrays the event in a non-neutral way.Alexikoua (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I go by what the sources state. Essentially all rebellions have some foreign supporters who will supply arms and maybe volunteers. That does not negate the (in this case) ethnic character of the rebels. Alltan (talk) 21:30, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The sources do not state this. The sources also mention various rebels by name and they were not Albanians. To sum up that was not an exclusively Albanian revolt and that's sourced. You recent addition is POV.Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

There are 2 sources which state it was an Albanian revolt. Of the only 2 Greeks mentioned in this article, 1 was from Mani and another was from Ohrid. Calling it "not Albanian" on these grounds, is WP:FALSEBALANCE Alltan (talk) 21:49, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course I provide citations.

Floristan: Athanasius promised to raise 6000 Albanians original: Atanasio, que había prometido levantar seis mil albaneses)

Barbu: Uprisings of the Balkan peoples took place in the period 1595-1598 in: Himara (the Albanians) original:Des soulèvements des peuples des Balkans ont eu lieu dans la période 1595-1598 à:Himara (les Albanais)

These two authors refer to the rebels in both cases. When Floristan mentions Albanian and Greek officers, he is mentioning members of the Spanish army. Of course there is probably no battle or war which is exclusively Albanian, Greek, or of any other ethnicity (by that standard the Greek War of Independence should be re-assessed too), but the description of the rebel army is not disputable. Çerçok (talk) 22:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

On this: Floristan: Athanasius promised to raise 6000 Albanians original. Ok you have to be kidding if a promise equals with the revolt it actually happened. The actual revolt had both Greek and Albanian participation. Floristan in his description (Floristan, 2008, p. 162-163) is very detailed about the Greek participation in this revolt something you should accept.

Floristan: Conocemos los nombres de otros griegos y albaneses implicados en esta acción bélica.
Kontali: Το 1596 προσπάθησε να ξεσηκώσει Ηπειρώτες και Αλβανούς εναντίον των Οθωμανών. We need to be careful and provide concrete argument on the issue. This wasn't a purely Albanian revolt and it's sourced as a such.Alexikoua (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Again, it doesnt't have to be a 100% monoethnic Albanian revolt for it to still be considered as such. That's why 2 RS have characterized it in that way. Alltan (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The participation of some Greek and Albanian officers in the Spanish army has already been put in the article and no one is arguing for its removal. That does not affect the composition of the rebels. Çerçok (talk) 20:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Who are those two RS? Floristan is certainly not. In fact Floristan, Kontali, Vakalopoulos, Hasiotis point to a rebellion of Greeks in Albanians. Himara wasn't purely Albanian too by the way that time. Alexikoua (talk)

Bibliography (Floristan including) refers to the revolutionaries in general as 'Himariotes'. Is there a reason why labelling them "Albanians"?Alexikoua (talk) 03:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

We have already brought two sources referring to the rebels as Albanian. Meanwhile the Spanish army had individuals of different ethnicities. Verifiable truth is plain and simple. No need to go around in circles. Çerçok (talk) 16:57, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

No you don't have brought anything. Floristan (one of the supposed two sources) does actually refute your POV. There is no way this can't be termed as purely Albanian it's OR and POV. On the other hand there is a ton of bibliography that refutes that this rebellion was simply an "Albanian Himariote one" (Floristan, Kodali, Vakalopoulos, Hasiotis among them). Labelling the inhabitants of Himara as Albanian simply recycles a certain POV. ( Alexikoua (talk) 18:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I have. Read my comment above where I cite Floristan and Barbu. The good thing about verifiable truth is that it is verifiable. Thank you. Çerçok (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. You claimed that this quote by Floristan "Athanasius promised to raise 6000 Albanians " does make this revolt... Albanian. It appears you awe a sincere apology. You argument it wrong.Alexikoua (talk) 19:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I gave you two sources. Accept verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 14:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• We have 3 sources that describe the revolt as "Albanian" and one that says someone tried to incite "Epirotes and Albanians" to revolt. At least in the quote, that source does not say if both of them revolted. In any case, we have 3 vs 1 sources so per WP:DUE the revolt in the article should be described as "Albanian". If more sources are found for "Epirote and Albanian", then ofc changes should be made accodingly. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Backgrounds

Writing on the background of an event is subjective by nature as it is up to the author to decide which events are related to the one in question. For example Greek authors usually place events in the context of other Greek revolts, while Albanian authors relate them to other Albanian ones. Recent edits of background sections of revolts, battles, etc., reflect such nationalistic flag-planting writing. I would advise all editors to restrict background edits only to events directly related to the article in question. Çerçok (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Imizcoz

The link to his article can be found here: https://eprints.ucm.es/id/eprint/63147/7/Floristán%20Im%C3%ADzcoz%2C%20JM_Contactos%20de%20la%20Chimarra%20con%20Roma%20y%20España_Erytheia_2017.pdf Kostas Giakoumis' article on the self-identification of the Himariots can be found here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317870502_Giakoumis_K_2016_Self-Identifications_by_Himarriots_16th_to_19th_Centuries_Erytheia_Revista_de_Estudios_Bizantinos_y_Neogriegos_v_37_pp_205-246

— Preceding unsigned comment added by ShockedSkater (talk • contribs) 07:24, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

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