Talk:Hellenistic period

What is the End Date of Hellenistic Period?

This article states that it begun around -300 and it ended with the emergence of Ancient Rome, yet the Wikipedia article for Ancient Rome stats that it begun emerging in -800 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.49.133 (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The Hellenistic Period of Greece began in 323 BC following Alexander the Great’s death and ended in 31 BC after the invasion of the Roman Republic. Sarah Shaheenbaz Faizi (talk) 09:38, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The end date for the Hellenistic period is contentious, and it depends on the subject. In philosophy, for example, many consider the Hellenistic period to extend as long as Greek was the primary language for philosophy; hence, it includes Neoplationism, which gets one to around 500 CE. Teishin (talk) 17:10, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

That wouldn't be normal. Generally conquest by the Romans is taken as the end, but 31 BC is only the final date in that process - most of modern Greece was Roman by 140 BC, soon after the Battle of Corinth (146 BC). See the nearest thing we have to an article on the subject. I wouldn't say the question is contentious either. Johnbod (talk) 17:44, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Nope, it would be perfectly normal in philosophy. Consider this entry from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://iep.utm.edu/neoplato/ "If an intellectual reply to a general yearning for personal salvation is what characterizes Neoplatonism, then the highly intellectual Gnostics and Christians of the Late Hellenistic era must be given the title of Neoplatonists." " in the Hellenistic era, certain Platonic ideas were taken up by thinkers of various loyalties — Jewish, Gnostic, Christian — and worked up into new forms of expression that varied quite considerably from what Plato actually wrote in his Dialogues." Teishin (talk) 18:00, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

French Wikipedia

Just a note (see also Talk:Hellenistic Greece) - I'm translating this article from the French fr:Époque hellénistique, a featured article, here. Feel free to copy-edit the french. The translation of the first section was a bit loose, but I was more strict in the second, so be especially judicious for the second section. I'll try to maintain the method I used in the intro. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 06:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Adding Hellenistic Philosophy

This section could use information about the Hellenistic period of philosophy, at least naming some of the skeptic (Pyrrho), epicurean (Epicurus, Lucretius) and stoic (Zeno of Citium) philosophers of the era.

DeanC 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hellenistic Civilisation

Looking at the articles Hellenistic Civilisation vs Hellenistic Period, they both cover somewhat similar ground... I feel that some of what I've tried to put in Hellenistic Period (mainly the cultural aspects, which need to be extended) would fit better into Hellenistic Civilisation, and that the history side would fit better into Hellenistic Period. Any thoughts on the matter? I also apologise for shoehorning some of the Hellenism in...like I say, it needs to go somewhere and I'd like to put more about the culture in. Tbarker 08:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

added expert tag

I added the expert tag -- please discuss at Talk:Hellenism#reorganization and foreign-language articles. Joriki (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Roman Empire vs. Republic

It is often considered a period of transition, sometimes even of decline or decadence, between the brilliance of the Greek Classical Era and the emergence of the Roman Empire."

Is "Roman Empire" accurate in this context, after all it was the Roman Republic that conquered Greece, the Empire was born more than a century later? If there will be no objections, I'll change it to just "Rome", or something. 82.181.37.203 (talk) 13:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It is. The decline is marked beginning with Julius Caesar being proclaimed Emperor, followed by the defeat and deaths of Mark Antony and Cleopatra. After that multiculturalism, faddish behavior, and a falling away from traditional values and practices among urbanites and the upper classes sealed history. --151.201.147.161 (talk) 15:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Merge

Since no one has commented on the merge proposal, I'm going to remove the tag. The two articles "Hellenistic Period" and "Hellenistic Civilisation" are palpably different (as is made clear in the lead), and I see no problem in them both being retained. To try and shoehorn this all into one article would be over the top, and would just result in them being split apart again. MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 07:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Pic language

Wouldn't it be better to have a pic with the geographic names in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.162.22 (talk) 03:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Hellenic vs Hellenistic periods

Many, many years ago I was taught that the Hellenistic period begins with Alexander, and was preceded by the Hellenic period. This distinction corresponds to the lead at Wikipedia's article on Classical Greece:

Classical Greece was a 200 year period in Greek culture lasting from the 5th through 4th centuries BC.[ref] The "Classical Age" is "the modern designation of the period from about 500 B.C. to the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C." (Thomas R. Martin, Ancient Greece, Yale University Press, 1996, p. 94).[/ref] This classical period had a powerful influence on the Roman Empire and greatly influenced the foundations of the Western Civilization. Much of modern Western politics, artistic thought, such as architecture, scientific thought, literature, and philosophy derives from this period of Greek history. In the context of the art, architecture, and culture of Ancient Greece, the Classical period, sometimes called the Hellenic period, corresponds to most of the 5th and 4th centuries BC (the most common dates being the fall of the last Athenian tyrant in 510 BC to the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC). The Classical period in this sense follows the Archaic period and is in turn succeeded by the Hellenistic period.

Imagine my surprise, then, on searching "Hellenic period", and being redirected instead to this article on the "Hellenistic period". I had stumbled across this problem at the article on Elegiac couplet, which presently states:

By the Hellenic period, the Alexandrian school made elegy its favorite and most highly developed form.

What was meant here was obviously supposed to be "By the Hellenistic period, the Alexandrian school ... (etc)," and I am going to edit it to that effect.

I'm not sure just what the "sometimes" means in the statement "the Classical period, sometimes called the Hellenic period" - perhaps the usage is now considered obsolete? In any case, as far as I can figure out, if the term Hellenic period means anything at all, it refers not to the "Hellenistic period" but to the pre-Hellenistic Classical period. Therefore the redirect should preferably go to Classical Greece rather than to here, but some sort of explanatory hatnotes at each page would be helpful. What is current scholarship on this question? Milkunderwood (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Or, if the term Hellenic period is not closely defined, perhaps it would be preferable for a search on this specific term to go to a disambiguation page, distinguishing between at least Classical Greece and Hellenistic period, and perhaps Archaic Greece as well. Either way, it should not point only here. Milkunderwood (talk) 03:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

This is what the Oxford Classical Dictionary, 4th ed, 2012, has to say under the heading "Hellenism, Hellenization,":

"In modern times the 19th-cent. historian J. G. Droysen, taking his cue above all from the Maccabees and Acts passages, gave ‘Hellenismus’ (the German is best not translated) a powerful and extended sense, not just ‘correct Greek’ but ‘fusion of Greek and non-Greek’. Droysen associated the word with a particular period, that between Alexander (3) the Great and the victory of Octavian (later Augustus) at Actium. It was in this period, the ‘Hellenistic Age’, that Greek culture was most intensely diffused; this diffusion was seen as a success story, not least because it made possible the eventual rise and spread of Christianity.

The post-colonial, late 20th cent. has reacted against such a simple picture. In the Droysenian and post-Droysen view of the ancient world there was arguably (cf. Bernal) some neglect of the non-Greek, especially the Semitic, contribution to Greek achievements. Even in the study of the religion and art of the Archaic period (see greece (history)) the near-eastern element has recently (Burkert, West) been stressed.

‘Hellenization or Hellenism?’ is a question best approached by considering the main alleged agents of the process of Hellenization (alternatively phrased, ‘the main vehicles of Hellenism’).

Conventionally, Hellenization has in modern times been associated with the post-Alexander period, so that as we have seen the word ‘Hellenistic’ was (and is) regularly confined to the centuries 323–31 bc."

Philafrenzy (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that Hellenic Period once was a synonym for Classical Period, but I think the term Hellenic Period has probably now been dropped precisely in order to avoid this sort of confusion with Hellenistic Period, and we should also probably try also to avoid confusing the two, though it is easy to understand how it might happen, particularly as the term Hellenic is widely used in other contexts to cover a broad idea of Hellenism. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. I have no idea whether Wikipedia has any guidelines for this sort of situation in dealing with obsolescent terminology, but it seems to me that for any number of reasons readers might use such terms in their searches, either because like me they were taught the distinction, or they have found references in older books, etc. The problem remains that a search for "Hellenic period" pointing only to this article Hellenistic period is incorrect, and misleading. I'll try posting this discussion at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, where perhaps some ideas for a solution might be tossed around and discussed. Milkunderwood (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, any further discussion should be posted at the WikiProject talkpage rather than here. Milkunderwood (talk) 18:13, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Redirect now goes to Classical Greece instead. Milkunderwood (talk) 02:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Bible reference

"Some consider that the four kingdoms above match prophecy of prophet Daniel of Hebrew Bible as given in Daniel 8:22."

This, I think, is badly out of place here (outside of a trivia section). I'm going to remove it. Heavenlyblue (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The successors

In the last paragraph of the Successors section, between the details of the division and the sentence "By about 281 BC, the situation had stabilised, resulting in four major domains:", there needs to be some statement about the successors falling into conflict and what the nature of that conflict was. Otherwise, there is a gap in the logic of the account.

Can some knowledgeable person address this? Heavenlyblue (talk) 21:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Reorganized article, added sections

I spent a long time editing this article, trying to improve it. I pretty much reworked a lot of the narrative in the Diadochi section, giving a more thorough overview of the immediate period after Alex's death. Then I separated the article by regions, with Southern Europe and the Middle east states getting extra sections (Sections mentioning minor non greek states like Galatia, Nabatea, Parthia et al were added with a focus on the Hellenistic aspect of these kingdoms). The section on Tylos was pared down (being mostly a copy of the entire Tylos article anyways) and then moved to the "Other states and Hellenistic influences" section. I also heavily edited the Culture section, including the part on religion, philosophy and art.

I also added entirely new sections on the historical sources, military science, literature. My major source was Green's "Alexander to Actium". Contact me with any comments on my edits. Javierfv1212 (talk)

Request for comment on Macedonia (ancient kingdom)

There is a RfC here, if you are interested in the subject please feel free to participate. Macedonian (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Death of Alexander

The first two cites on this article say "The death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. traditionally marks the beginning of the Hellenistic period" and "Hellenistic age, in the eastern Mediterranean and Middle East, the period between the death of Alexander the Great in 323 bce and the conquest of Egypt by Rome in 30 bce". In spite of that, Gauhar2806 has changed the lead sentence to read "between the rise of Alexander the Great in 336 BC". Obviously we should write what the cites actually say and not make things up. I wonder if any other editor can persuade them of that? Pinkbeast (talk) 17:32, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted my edits.--Gauhar2806 (talk) 14:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Filipino

issueng panahong Alexandria 210.23.166.155 (talk) 01:45, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The Diadochi

I have added two citations in the Diadochi section. Both are from the same source and under the reference number ^22.--NoFace23 (talk) 07:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Hellenistic Greece into Hellenistic period

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus is against merging. Piccco (talk) 10:49, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

---

There's mostly similar content in the two articles. Hellenistic Greece may refer to "the geographical region of Greece during the Hellenistic period", but that can be included in Hellenistic period itself, because only a small section Hellenistic Greece § City states and leagues contains most of the information about Greek geography and politics during the Hellenistic period. — CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ] [ CONT ]} 15:26, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

The topic of Greece per se during the Hellenistic period seems like a topic which can support an independent article just fine, since quite a lot of Hellenistic period pertains to a much larger region. Other areas have more specific relevant articles such as Seleucid Empire and Ptolemaic Kingdom, to which Hellenistic Greece is broadly analogous. I'd recommend instead chopping out / merging material from Hellenistic Greece, if any, which seems to stray out of scope. There should of course be a prominent link to Hellenistic period. –jacobolus (t) 19:50, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, two different topics that can (and should) stand separetely; one has a geographic focus, while the other is mainly a time period. As mentioned above, the article of Hellenistic Greece focuses specifically on the historical developments that occured during the Hellenistic period in the Greek peninsula. On the other hand, the 'Hellenistic period' itself is a historiographical term that covers the history of a much broader geographic space, namely the whole Mediterranean, and even further, like West Asia and India. Also, 'Hellenistic Greece' is part of series of articles that cover the historical developements in Greece during various time periods; e.g. Archaic, Classical, Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine etc. (same articles exist for many other countries too). Piccco (talk) 14:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Hellenistic period is too long already, at 151K raw bytes, and is mostly not about Greece. So Hellenistic Greece is a sensible spin-off - perhaps more could go over? Johnbod (talk) 15:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I oppose for the same reasons previously mentioned. The Hellenistic period encompasses a much broader geographic scope beyond Greece, extending to other regions such as Hellenistic Egypt, Hellenistic Judea, Hellenistic Phoenicia, among others. Mariamnei (talk) 17:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: it would be like merging Italian Renaissance into Renaissance. Furius (talk) 23:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I agree with all of the above. The Hellenistic Period as unit of time should include general information about the development and influence of Hellenism all over the Eastern world, while Greece as its place of origin has a unique history and deserves a separate page, as does every notable land during this time. The page about Greece has a different focus from that of the entire period, and as such the two should not be merged. Uppagus (talk) 08:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as per above arguments. Borsoka (talk) 01:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, though there is a degree of overlap between Hellenistic Period and Hellenization that should be sorted out. This page is meant for historical and general summary, with in depth coverage expanded to the latter, in terms of general culture, Hellenistic philosophy in terms of scientific political thought, Hellenistic religion in terms of religious influence, etc. The lengthiness of the existing article does merit some trimming and revision to coordinate with those more subject specific articles that should be redirected to and expanded with more comprehensive content instead Sleath56 (talk) 17:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.