Talk:Hellenic Nomarchy

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hellenic Nomarchy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk) 11:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   The impact of of ideas of the French Revolution (1789) provided a major stimulus for the further development of republican thought in Greek culture. "of of"? The use of the word "further" implies that there was already "republican thought in Greek culture". Apart form the fact that this is very badly phrased, it needs explanation. Done

   Moreover, the outbreak of the French Revolutionary ideas (1789) provided a major stimulus for the further development of republican thought in Greek culture. is only marginally better. "the outbreak of the French Revolutionary ideas" - ideas don't "outbreak". Have another go. Done

   Feraios' execution in 1798 at the hands of the Ottomans gave to this political idea an aura of heroism, which also visualized the liberation of Greece in the context of the political reforms. What idea is this? Done

   In addition to Feraios' writings, an additional number of works engendered in the same polemical style took on a more specific revolutionary character, as social contradictions in the Ottoman Empire grew sharper "works engendered in the same polemical style" This is both unclear and poor prose. Use plain English. No-one is impressed by over elaborate language, especially when it is misused. Done

   Rigas' martyrdom in 1798 gave to this political ideas an aura of heroism, which visualized the liberation of Greece in the context of the political reforms that were revolutionizing the political map of Europe. We generally use surnames in Wikipedia, not given names. The phrasing of this is clumsy and confusing. Still clumsy and badly written

   Apart from Rigas, an additional number of works engandered this style of polemical writing that took on a more and more specifically insurrectionary character, as social contraditions in Ottoman Empire grew sharper in the tumultuous era of Napoleonic Europe. Another clusmy and badly expressed phrase.

   Actually, this is very badly written and clearly fails criterion #1. Please get it copy-edited by someone with a good command of plain clear english. The WP:Guild of copyeditors may be able to help. When it has been copy-edited I will examine the prose and the lead further.

   There have been a few small improvements but this is still far from "reasonably good prose" throughout. I think you need to get assistance from another editor.

   Still needs a lot of work to render this into plain English. Jezhotwells (talk) 02:01, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

   I made a number of minor copy-edits. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Well referenced, sources appear to be RS, no evidence of OR.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Sufficient detail without trivia.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Captioned, licensed, tagged.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   On hold for seven days. The article needs copy-editing as at the moment the prose is ungrammatical, confusing and incoherent. Jezhotwells (talk) 11:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

   A long way to go. Please get some help, perhaps try at the project talk pages. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

   OK, I think this passesmuster now. Listing as GA, congratulations! Jezhotwells (talk) 19:35, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I gave the article a thorough copyedit, let me know if you find it sufficient or if more is needed. Athenean (talk) 00:22, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Completely misinterpreted source.

I am removing the sentence “Among the personalities covered in the Hellenic Nomarchy is the Albanian ruler Ali Pasha, who is labeled as a lord and a father for the people of Epirus and Thessaly.” This was added from ZjarriRrethues and he used as a source the book “ Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization” by M. V. Sakellariou. It is from google books and if you check the link you can't really see what the actual paragraph of the book says. In fact no were the Hellenic Nomarchy describes Ali Pasha as lord and father of Epirus and Thessaly(sic)! Actually the text is completely different. The complete and original text of Hellenic Nomarchy is on Internet( and actually there is a link in the article).Here is the text about Ali pasha and below follows a translation off most of it from me. The text is written in simple Kathareuousa Greek with some archaic elements and it is quite easy to understand by anyone who can read Greek.

original Greek text:
"Ἡ διαυθέντευσις τῶν Σουλιώτων κατὰ τοῦ τῆς Ἠπείρου τυράννου, ἀρκετῶς θέλει τοὺς ἀποδείξει, ὅτι ἡ Ἑλλὰς γεννᾷ ἀκόμη Λεωνίδας καὶ Θεμιστοκλεῖς. Ὤ, πόσον θέλουν μείνει ἔκθαμβοι, ὅταν ἀναγνώσουν τὰ θαυμαστὰ κατορθώματα τοῦ μεγάλου Φώτου, ἐκείνου, λέγω, τοῦ ἥρωος τοῦ Σούλιου καὶ ὅλων τῶν Σουλιώτων, τῶν ὁποίων ἡ ἀνδρεία, ἡ μεγαλοψυχία, καὶ ὁ ζῆλος περὶ τῆς ἐλευθερίας τῆς πατρίδος των, ἀθανάτισαν τὸ ὄνομά των, καὶ ἔφερον εἰς ἀπελπισμὸν χίλιας φορὰς τὸν ἐχθρόν τους τύραννον, τὸν ἀχρειέστατον λέγω Ἀλῆ!
'Ἔπρεπε, βέβαια, νὰ ἔζῃ ὁ Θουκυδίδης ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶν, διὰ νὰ γράψῃ τὴν ἱστορίαν αὐτῶν τῶν πολέμων καὶ τὰς κακίας αὐτοῦ τοῦ αἱμοβόρου τέρατος, ὁπού, ἕως ἀπὸ τοὺς 1787 μέχρι τῆς σήμερον, δὲν ἔπαυσεν ἀπὸ τοῦ νὰ τυραννῇ τοὺς ταλαιπώρους Ἠπειρώτας καὶ Θετταλούς, σκληρῶς καὶ ἀσπλάγχνως. Αὐτός, ἀφοῦ ἥρπασε μὲ διάφορα πονηρὰ μέσα τὸ ἀνεξάρτητον κράτος τῆς Ἠπείρου καὶ Θετταλίας, καὶ γνωρίζοντας κατὰ πρᾶξιν τὰ πρὸς τὴν τυραννίαν δέοντα, ἐσκεπάσθη κατ᾿ ἀρχὰς μὲ τὸ ἔνδυμα τῆς ὑποκρίσεως, καὶ οὕτως, πλανῶντας μὲ ψευδεῖς ἐπαίνους καὶ πλουσιοπάροχα ταξίματα τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ προεστούς, ἠπάτησεν σχεδὸν ὅλους, καὶ καθεὶς ἐνόμισε διὰ ὀλίγον καιρόν, νὰ εὑρῆκεν εἰς αὐτὸν ἡ εὔκαρπος γῆ τῆς Ἠπείρου καὶ Θετταλίας καὶ οἱ κάτοικοι αὐτῶν ἕνα διαυθεντευτὴν καὶ ἕνα πατέρα.'
Ἀλλ᾿ ἀφοῦ ὁ ἄσπλαγχνος καὶ σκληρὸς τύραννος ἐστερέωσε τὴν δυναστείαν του, ἔρριψεν εὐθὺς τὴν σκέπην τῆς προσποιήσεως, καὶ παραχρῆμα ἐξατμήθη ὅλη ἡ δυσωδία τῆς τυραννίας του. Τότε οἱ Ἠπειρῶται ἄνοιξαν τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς των, ἀλλά, φεῦ! δὲν εἶδον ἄλλο, εἰμὴ τὸν φοβερὸν θρόνον τοῦ τυράννου ἐπάνω εἰς τὰς κεφαλάς των. Κεχαυνωμένοι οὖν ἀπὸ τὴν τυραννικὴν μέθην, δὲν ἀπεφάσισαν ἐν καιρῷ νὰ συντρίψουν τοσοῦτον ζυγόν· ὅθεν καὶ ηὔξησεν βαθμηδὸν καὶ ἐστερεώθη τόσον, ὥστε ὁποὺ ὁ ἴδιος τύραννος θαυμάζει διὰ τὴν ἀναισθησίαν τῶν δούλων του (7). Οὔτε εἰς τὴν γενικὴν ἱστορίαν εὑρίσκεται παρόμοιός του. Ὤ, τῆς ταλαιπωρίας σου ἀνθρωπότης! ὤ, ἀνυπόφορος ἐντροπή! ὤ, θέαμα ἐλεεινόν."

English text:
"...There should have been a Thucydides or a Xenophon to write the history of this bloodthirsty monster who from 1787 till today , hasn't stop to torture the poor Eperotans and Thessalians , in a cruel and heartless way.
After cunningly grabbed the independent state of Eperus and Thessaly, and being expert in tyranny, he tricked with flattery and fake promises the powerful locals and he managed to fool them all. Everyone thought for awhile that the fertile lands of Eperus and Thessaly has found a master and a father.
But after the cruel and heartless tyrant, secure his power he immediate through down his mask and at once the awful smell of his tyranny released to the air. Then the Eperotans open their eyes but Alas! they saw nothing more than the terrible throne of the tyrant over their heads. Being mesmerised by the tyrant they did not decided on time to through down their chains and thus he secure and increase his power so much that even the tyrant admires how unable to react are his slave.
Never in history there is one like him. Oh how you suffer humanity! Oh insufferable shame. Oh pitiful sight!"

As we all can see the Hellenic Nomarchy had an exact opposite view for Ali Pasha. "Blood thirsty tyrant" and not a "father". ZjarriRrethues used Google books is such a way that caused many mistakes. Seleukosa (talk) 13:24, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Well done. I saw Zjarri's addition and was curious about it as it seemed very dubious. POV-driven editing and Google Books abuse at its best, unfortunately. Constantine ✍ 13:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually I have just cheched Sakellariou book, the full quote says:[[1]]

The same view of Ali Pasha is to be found in the Greek Nomarchy of 1806 ("the fertile land of Epirus and Thessaly and the inhabitants of these lands found in him a lord and a father")25 and similar judgements were made by the majority of the foreign travellers who visited Epirus during the more than 30 years of his rule. The publishers of the Ephemeris and later the Anonymous author of the Greek Nomarchy were not, of course, unaware of his inexorable attitude and his continued campaigns to conquer Souli, which began in 1789 and came to an end in 1804.

Alexikoua (talk) 15:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

@Seleukosa and Cplakidas I was quoting Sakellariou because I thought that he didn't falsify that part too, but it seems that as you said Sakellariou's quotes are completely fictional. I searched out of curiosity on google books about Ali Pasha + Hellenic Nomarchy and the first result I got was this supposedly direct quote, but since almost all Greek users on wikipedia insist on Sakellariou's reliability I didn't check if it was real or not.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

@Zjarri: Sakellariou is completely right, please avoid snippet abbusing and read the full context, as Selekosa and Constantine noticed. If there is the slightest disagreement with top grated sources please take it to wp:RSN.Alexikoua (talk) 15:49, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

So where does it say in the work that the fertile land of Epirus and Thessaly and the inhabitants of these lands found in him a lord and a father?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

"νὰ εὑρῆκεν εἰς αὐτὸν ἡ εὔκαρπος γῆ τῆς Ἠπείρου καὶ Θετταλίας καὶ οἱ κάτοικοι αὐτῶν ἕνα διαυθεντευτὴν καὶ ἕνα πατέρα." (Selekose above gave the full context) [[2]]Alexikoua (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

That makes Sakellariou's quote out of context.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course Sakellariou quote is out of contex. We can't tell from a small snippet (unless it is crystall clear). We need to have the entire page. From what I can understand Sakellariou probably describes how Ali Pasha presented himself (as lord and father) or how he appeared in the eyes of foreing travelers. But I am only speculating!Seleukosa (talk) 16:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The next sentence of the same book describes Ali's 'inexorable attitude' against the Souliotes. As Sakellariou says (citing Hellenic Nomarchy): the local population 'expected' of him to be less cruel.Alexikoua (talk) 16:19, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Seleuokosa has the meaning spot on. @Zjarri, as Fut. Perf. and others have noted innumerable times, don't use snippets, unless you have some way of checking the context. The unfortunately usual way with many Balkan articles is that editors search for or happen to find a specific quote that validates their own pre-conceived notions (consciously or not), without bothering to check what the author actually says in the specific chapter/section, or troubling to find further corroborative evidence. That is a problem, and an experienced editor really should strive to avoid making this error. Constantine ✍ 17:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)