Talk:Har Adar

History and source reliability; three comments

Newspaper articles about the recent attack are among the most unreliable sources for the history of this place. Journalists on a deadline are more likely to get their background information from Wikipedia than from a history book. Use of such articles should be restricted to citation for the details of recent events. Zero^talk 02:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

The article says that the place was founded in 1982. But then it says "Har Adar was initially built adjacent to the Green Line but has grown past it since the 1967 Six-Day War and is now largely located within the West Bank." The latter is correctly cited to a book that ought to be reliable. But saying that a place not founded until 1982 did something before and since 1967 makes no sense. Actually, it's an outright contradiction. This ought to be fixed using better, clearer, sources. Incidentally, almost all of the houses of Har Adar shown in this map lie in the West Bank. Zero^talk 02:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

This article and a less reliable book I have say that Har Adar was founded in 1986. More authoritatively, the CBS list of localities gives the year of Jewish settlement as 1986. I propose that we change 1982 to 1986 with the CBS list as source. Zero^talk 02:55, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Zero, thanks, I was trying to find something that supported that it straddles the Green Line and that seemed reliable. By all means, fix my blunders if I made some. nableezy - 04:12, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I've made a provisory fix, using Zero's sources, but, as one should, looked into the issue independently: numerous sources state 1986. I added the POICA source with attribution. Naturally enough, the predictable reverter of my edits, Shrike, struck, and removed the reference to POICA:

WP:UNDUE if the those claims are notable there should be notable WP:RS

Shrike. POICA is a branch of the Applied Research Institute–Jerusalem, which has not been questioned to my memory as a reliable source for what Palestinian scholars produce regarding settlements. POICA was set up and run by ARIJ, is a branch of the latter funded by the European Union, (which has strict rules about what beneficiaries of its funding can and cannot do). The edit summary is meaningless. RS are RS, notable or not. We do not have discriminations between 'notable' vs.'non-notable' RS. Unless Shrike, who has reverted without any talk page involvement can explain himself, I'll put this attributed statement back.Nishidani (talk) 10:31, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I would also second Zero's point that the lead is incomprehensible for paraphrasing the self-contradictory source. One simply cannot write:

Har Adar was initially built adjacent to the Green Line but has grown past it since the 1967 Six-Day War and is now largely located within the West Bank>.

for an article which has numerous sources stating Har Adar was built 1982/1986. Uri Blau, of the various newspaper sources used so far, has strong reliability because he is a notasble ionvestigative reporter into land deals in the West Bank.

All your reverts do, Shrike, is freeze the correction of a defect already noted on this talk page before you intervened.Nishidani (talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Did you actually checked the sources when you reintroduced error that all three killed were soldiers?--Shrike (talk) 11:14, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

POICA may be reliable for the Palestinains claim but it doesn't mean its WP:DUE to include them.--Shrike (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Do you realize what you are saying? You are saying that, in an NPOV balancing fact imposed by core Wikipedia policies, the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives receive equal weight. An Israeli perspective/claim and a Palestinian perspective/claim are treated identically, both are due, when available and material to the article. You are saying only Palestinian claims have to be proven to be due. Please, for the nth time, read the bloody rulebook and apply it, whatever your POV.Nishidani (talk) 12:04, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

What Israeli claim we include that doesn't base itself on secondary sources?I didn't notice that we report directly from some Israeli think-tanks of government offices correct me if I wrong.

Why did you introduced factual error on the killed in the attack please respond of fix it.--Shrike (talk) 12:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Like you and every other editor, perhaps with the exception of Zero, I'm fallible. If an editor errs, one corrects the error. One does not seize on it to revert everything else she added. I'm not touching the text for another day, for obvious reasons. If you had made that point on the talk page, instead of that lazy POV style of dislike-reverting, it would have been fixed immediately. Use the talk page before you take drastic measures. Nishidani (talk) 12:35, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

You can self revert is totally allowed by the policy and I am pretty that no one will report you.--Shrike (talk) 12:37, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

The Hebrew wiki says, unfortunately without source, "All the houses of the settlement, without exception, are located on the northeastern side of the Green Line." A detailed overlay of the houses as shown at Amud Anan with the green line as shown on an Israeli map circa 1950 supports this view. "Radar Hill", where the settlement is supposed to have started, is in the West Bank by a few hundred meters. Another thing is that a map I bought in Israeli in 1993 shows Har Adar well inside the West Bank. As yet this all is OR on my part, however I don't think we should use Cohen's book for just a part of what it says when it appears to have the rest of what it says wrong. Zero^talk 13:26, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I just found that I don't need the 1950 map for the green line, since it is a boundary of Israeli statistical regions. Go to this recent official map. Har Adar הר אדר is in the middle; zoom in and select the satellite view from the pop-up on the top right corner of the map itself. Then click search שיפוש from the menu on the upper right and check the box beside "statistical areas" אדורים סטטיסטיים . The red diagonal line now dividing the greyed-out area from the rest is the green line (matching the 1950 map within 10 meters or less). You can see one or two buildings in Israel if you look carefully, but I don't know if they belong to Har Adar. Zero^talk 13:57, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Open Street Map and Google Maps agree. Zero^talk 04:32, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Dates

I see we have some new editors to this article unaware of its founding history. I will take the time and fix this tonight. Will explain how 67 leads to 82 establishement then 86 incorporation.--Moxy (talk) 12:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I hope you have sources. Otherwise your edits will be in vain. Zero^talk 13:09, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I'll record two things I found. (1) In The Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, p507, referring to 1981: "The Ministerial Committee on Settlement Affairs decided to establish a communal settlement on the 'Radar Hill,' close to Ma'aleh Hahamisha, several hundred metres inside the occupied territories. It also envisaged the construction of a suburb of 250 villas. (Ha'aretz, 2, 8 November; Jerusalem Post, 6 November; A1 Fajr Weekly, 20-26 November 1981)." (2) In the regular chronology published by the Journal of Palestine Studies, vol 17, no. 1, 1987, p217: :Deputy P.M. David Levy attends inauguration celebration for new Israeli settlement at al-Radar Hill. [Al Fajr, Aug 6, 1987]". Zero^talk 03:48, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Also, the best proof that Har Adar was not founded within the Green Line is the multiple sources that say it was founded on Radar Hill. There is no question whatever that Radar Hill is in the West Bank by hundreds of meters. Zero^talk 04:35, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

The settlement itself says it was founded in 1986: with further details. This should be enough to lay to rest any idea that it was founded before 1967, and anywhere except "Radar Hill". Zero^talk 04:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

So we have a source conflict. Our lead draws on a RS that has, to all appearances, loose language, and we write:

The current settlement was founded in 1986 initially within the Green Line. but quickly expanded over it.<ref name

This is contradicted by the other RS, which draws directly on verifiable Israeli newspaper reportage. Zero makes a point citing the equally reputable Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem, p.507 to the effect that

the best proof that Har Adar was not founded within the Green Line is the multiple sources that say it was founded on Radar Hill. There is no question whatever that Radar Hill is in the West Bank by hundreds of meters.

So the second source challenges our lead, meaning the lead line in question has to be rewritten.Nishidani (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

This purports to be a translation of a Defense Ministry database published by Haaretz in 2009. That can be checked. On Har Adar it quotes a 1981 cabinet decision to establish "a communal settlement on Giv'at Haradar, at main coordinate 1624.1370." That location is 200m north of the highest point of Radar Hill, about 600m into the West Bank. The claim that it was established inside the Green Line is dead and buried. Zero^talk 07:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC) Hebrew version of same. Zero^talk 08:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

location again

The claim that this place was founded within the green line relies on a source that thinks it was founded before 1967. As noted in detail above, that is unsustainable and must change.

The next problem is the lead sentence, which says "in the Seam Zone and the Maccabim sub-region of the West Bank". Where the source for the second part? Zero^talk 09:49, 12 May 2019 (UTC)