Talk:Gurbachan Singh Salaria

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Salaria - Dogra?

Can somebody provide a verifiable reference whether Gurbachan Singh Salaria was actually a Dogra Rajput? Salarias are supposedly chandravanshi and dogras are suryavanshi. Dogra family of Dr. Karan Singh claims suryavanshi descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_House_of_Jammu_and_Kashmir —Preceding unsigned comment added by Internet Scholar (talk • contribs) 05:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Not all Dogra Rajput clans are suryavanshi, some like Katoch and Pathania to name a few are Dogra Rajput clans who are chandravanshi. Dr. Karan Singh is dogra rajput who belongs to the Jamwal clan which together with its cadet clan Manhas is of suryavanshi descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.92.230 (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If he was a Saini then why Salaria is a Rajput sub-caste?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulehria

-Clarkpoon (talk) 10:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

In Gurdaspur Salaria was returned as the largest Saini clan. Apparently many clans returned dual identities during the British census . It is possible that a large number of agricultural Salarias in Gurdaspur got assimilated into Saini group who held about 54 villages in that district. Since Sainis are also a martial group which also claims chandarvanshi Rajput origin, it is possible that the identity of this sub group is fluid between these broader but related classifications. Sainis of Gurdaspur , who are predominantly of Salaria sub clan, were also under 'martial class' and have a long history of serving in the army at all levels and winning gallantry awards. If Captain Salaria, s/o Munshi Ram, was from an agricultural family in Gurdaspur, which he was, he was most certainly a Saini Salaria who claimed Rajput identity as well. Here is a profile from Indian matrimonial website which claims a dual Saini Salaria Rajput identity:

I Miss **** Saini Salaria D/o Sh. narinder singh saini.....Religion: Hindu Community: Kashmiri/J&K/Dogri/Ladacki Caste: Hindu: Rajput Sub Caste /Surname: SALARIA, SAINI

http://www.jeevansathi.com/profile/matrimonial-0930321W4.htm

Here is another place in Gurdaspur named after another Saini Salaria martyr (Shaheed Ashok Singh Saini Salaria)

http://wikimapia.org/4108483/Saheed-Ashok-Singh-Saini-Salaria-Eneter-by-Satish-Saini-Salaria

Note: These not citable references. So it is best not to talk about Capt. Salaria's caste in the article until a citable reference is found. Lets not debate it further unless there are secondary source references from wikipedia acceptable reliable sources. Personal opinions and original research are not citable sources on wikipedia and are not permissible. Please check Wikipedia's guidelines about reliable sources before adding any info about Capt. Salaria's caste background. Thanks. --99.233.132.217 (talk) 23:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Reference to caste Captain Salaria was removed. Don't add anything unless there is a clear citation provided from a reliable source regarding whichever caste he belonged to.--99.233.132.217 (talk) 13:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

He became the second Saini Sikh to get the PVC after Capt Gurbachan Singh Salaria, who earned the award posthumously leading a Khukri charge in December 1961 at Katanga, Congo, while on a UN Mission ",When the will became a weapon, The Tribune, Sunday, August 05, 2018| url=https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/spectrum/when-the-will-became-a-weapon/572352.html so cap gurbachan singh belongs to saini community of Punjab — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.109.244.92 (talk) 14:15, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Gurbachan singh salarhia belongs to rajput saini community

Captain Gurbachan Singh Salaria became the first Saini Sikh who gets Parmvir chakar highest gallantry awards of army The Tribune, Sunday, August 05, 2018

Atam Marg 1 (talk) 09:29, 13 September 2020 (UTC) Please add this resources in family biography

• From what I understand the source you have provided doesn't say that exactly (that he belonged to the "rajput saini community"), but it does say that he was from the Saini caste and that he was a Sikh, so I have added that to the article. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
  • @Indy beetle: This source (no idea whether it is reliable) states that Gurbachan's family, the Salaria clan, are both Saini and of Chandravanshi Rajput descent. Applodion (talk) 10:51, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. I don't like the looks of that particular source, but perhaps a better one remains to be found. I'm honestly exhausted by fighting these caste-obsessed IP and new account editors, whose single-minded focus on this matter makes me believe that this is nothing more than thinly-veiled clan-based chauvinism, and I'm reticent to play into it. None of the major sources I've read about Salaria (back when I did the GA review) mention his caste anyway, so I don't see why it's inclusion is of major importance to this biography. -Indy beetle (talk) 14:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
      • @Indy beetle: Fair enough, though I think that not mentioning any background wil invite those obsessed with the issue to insert their view of things into the article anyway. Frankly, I see little chance of this issue ever going away, judging by the fact that several editors (myself included) had to repeatedly revert Arab nationalists trying to insert their revisionist viewpoint into articles about Sudanese ethnic groups for at least two years before they gave up. The latter case was a much more niche topic than this one, so I doubt that changing or removing it will cause people to stop disputing his religion and ethnicity. At least the current version has a reliable source backing it up. Applodion (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Increase - This is getting out of hand. I have now requested semi-protection for the third time. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
  • @Indy beetle: Thank you! Applodion (talk) 09:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Yes

Salaria is dogra rajput ....... Even saini salaria are other I can send you my caste certificate ..... 2409:4055:719:40AC:C63A:E78A:73B2:697F (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes

Some saini tribe used after the name salaria but they are other. We are only salaria ( dogra rajput) we don't use saini after name because we are other and captain gurubachan singh salaria are dogra rajput . I belong to near village of salaria 2409:4055:719:40AC:C63A:E78A:73B2:697F (talk) 03:49, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Sub joghinder singh saini

This pvm belong to saini salaria and religion Sikhism but captian was only salaria ( dogra rajput ) and his religion is hindusim please correct your information. .... Beacuse our community is not satisfying with you...... Please take action as soon as possible 2409:4055:719:40AC:C63A:E78A:73B2:697F (talk) 03:54, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Your caste certificate is irrelevant here. Do you have a source which explicitly says this soldier was a Hindu Rajput? -Indy beetle (talk) 06:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Indy beetle: You know Singh always used by Sikhism why you remove reliable source Gurbachan singh salaria was Sikh Saini yaduvanshi rajput [[1]] please add reliable source Gen Raj Mehtaehata was instructor in army has well known to cap. Singh surname given by Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji 10th sikh gurus

• I'm very confused by what you're trying to say. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

[[2]]{{Joginder Singh Sahnan was born on September 26, 1921 at Mahla Kalan, near Moga, Punjab. He became the second Saini Sikh to get the PVC after Capt Gurbachan Singh Salaria, who earned the award posthumously leading a Khukri charge in December 1961 at Katanga, Congo, while on a UN Mission }} Singh surname always used by Sikhs since 1699 AD caption gurbachan singh salaria belongs to Sikhism not Hinduism and he belongs to yaduvanshi Saini Rajput caste someone says he is Dogra rajput Dogra rajput also part Of saini yaduvanshi rajput Don't remove reliable source.i can provide you every religion source if you needed please the previous source he belongs to saini yaduvanshi caste Sikhism is his religion.@Indy beetle:

• Happy? -Indy beetle (talk) 09:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Indy beetle: Alot of Thanks buddy 🙏 God Bless You

Your Asking singh only use sikhism

But you are wrong there many rajput used after name is singh... Partap and we chandervanshi kashtriya. ... We are also salaria .... I warn you and action you last ... I will submit FIR in police station... And delete to wikipedia 2409:4055:4E03:B443:518B:6DE0:1DC9:58FE (talk) 02:23, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what exactly you mean, but I would politely remind you that per WP:NOLEGALTHREATS, threatening to have Wikipedia users sanctioned by law enforcement or sued or whatever can get you blocked from editing. Any legal complaints should be filed with the Wikimedia Foundation. As for the subject matter at hand, I have yet to find a reliable secondary source (please see WP:RS for what qualifies as a reliable secondary source) which states that Salaria was a Hindu Rajput. Considering the number of complaints we get, I imagine that Salaria was indeed was a Hindu Rajput (he also seems to lack the turban Sikhs in the Indian army typically wear, but I'm rather ignorant about Indian military dress codes). However, so far we only have a reliable source which suggests, somewhat indirectly, that Captain Salaria was a Saini Sikh. Please, I ask of you or anyone else who reads this, if you can find a source which suits our WP:RS criteria which states that Salaria was a Hindu Rajput, please let us know and show us the relevant information. I have been handling this dispute for two years and I grow weary of it. Personal experience does not count as a reliable source. If you have a newspaper article or a book or something similar which specifies Salaria's caste and religious affiliation, please show us. I don't want to offend people, but Wikipedia is bound by what reliable sources say. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Sir

I already told you before that salaria is hindu rajput . We are salaria rajput . Singh surname also used by hindu rajput king example. Maharaja gulab singh jamwal , general zorawar singh khaluria , param veer chakra , Major Shaitan Singh you search also list of param veer chakra of rajput ..... Then you realise you are wrong and people of salaria sub clan are right . We salaria rajput . You can search on google .... .. You should know salaria father name is munshi ram and mother name is dhan Devi.... This is hindu name ... We are hindu rajput please I request to you show hindu rajput in wikipedia Don't spread wrong information ..... Even you know alots people change this Wikipedia and clam to salaria is hindu rajput..... You should understand this matter 2409:4055:4E03:B443:6939:3367:607E:3226 (talk) 06:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Sir

Yes. Sikh wear turbans and joinsikh regiment ..... ....Salaria join gorkha regiment which is full based on hilly areas rajput linke gharwal dogra etc.... Salaria is hindu rajput .and hindu rajput also used singh after his name.. like title thakur ,rana , raja etc there alots of hindu rajput who use singh after his name ..... 2409:4055:4E03:B443:6939:3367:607E:3226 (talk) 07:00, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• I have found an online news article which confirms that Captain Salaria was Rajput. I have not, however, found one which ssays he was a Hindu. Please post a link to a news article which explicitly says that Captain Salaria was a Hindu. A link which says other people with the same name are Hindu will not suffice. -Indy beetle (talk) 07:00, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
  • IMO, is it really a good idea to remove the Sikh claim just because people repeatedly vandalize the article? A whole bunch of anons have also vandalized articles on Sudanese ethnic groups for years, claiming that these were all Arab in origin (which is a claim used by some local nationalists), but this didn't make the statements any more true. Not that I do not understand the concern that the Shikh claim might be nonsense as well, though we should remember that India is currently affected by (a) government-sponsored revisionist, Hindu nationalist campaigns, and (b) that ethnicity and religion are and were extremely complex issues in the subcontinent. Just because he wasn't depicted with some traditional Sikh markings does not automatically mean that he was no Sikh.
    In regards to the naming, it is perhaps worth mentioning that one current prominent individual named "Singh Salaria", namely Joginder Singh Salaria, has connections to both Hindu and Sikh religious institutions, and this article suggests that he is Sikh himself. On the flip side, there is BJP member Swaran Singh Salaria who appears to be a Hindu. Swaran Singh Salaria was become somewhat prominent in regional politics, and his Hindu identity appears to play some role in his politics and his self-presentation.
    Furthermore, these tweets (by one of those claiming that Gurbachan Singh Salaria was a Hindu) admit that Gurbachan Singh Salaria's family was affected by the migrations after the partition, meaning that any relations and family connections were probably mixed up in the ensuing chaos. Applodion (talk) 09:27, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Now that I have thought about it a bit more, however, you might be right that just leaving the religion out of the article is the best option. Applodion (talk) 10:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Update: An administrator blocked the recent IPs after they kept throwing threats around. Applodion (talk) 11:49, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Confusion regarding claims

One source say he was Saini another source say he was Rajput. Newspapers are generally poor source for such claims. It is a probability that editor of these newspapers have created the report in haste. Need a better source for this as it is becoming controversial. Admantine123 (talk) 12:52, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

You are aware that Rajputs and Sainis are not exclusive? One can be both. Furthermore, unless you provide a better source, these newspapers are considered sufficient evidence. Applodion (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Their pages are different and they are different communities. No source say that they are same. Here someone has done WP: SYNTHESIS. Tagging Sitush, lets finish these saini related controversies altogether.Admantine123 (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This is not WP: SYNTHESIS, this is reporting based on reliable sources. I kindly request that you stop removing sourced content from the article. Btw, the article also passed a good artice review, where the sources and their information were considered prefectly fine. Applodion (talk) 15:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

One Hindi news source say he is Rajput another one say he is Saini. There is no established fact and source that say that Saini are a sub-caste of Rajputs. Let's others decide. News papers often write something casually without proper research. I have numerous examples for the same. Tagging other editors, Ekdalian, Sitush, LukeEmily, Fylindfotberserk, Uanfala. Admantine123 (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 I'd just delete the caste stuff. It's trivial & we should make a stand. I couldn't care less if he was Saini, Rajput, both or neither, and nor should you. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree with you. And that's what I did. Now with all these happening i believe that you were right that day. The caste list and mention of caste is the most rubbish thing here. Everyone is becoming an anthropologist. Admantine123 (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Admantine123: Omit mention of caste when there are differences. A Rajput is not a Saini. News sources most of the time are unreliable especially when it comes to biographies. In many cases they regurgitate various versions of a Wiki article, that is WP:CIRCULAR. WP:HISTRS compliant sources or some authentic biography of the subject would do in my opinion. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Fylindfotberserk. I guess you are from the same region of India where this caste is found and i also know that what is happening here. Rajput and Saini are different castes. This is being done for a particular purpose so that we have more sources in future in form of newspapers which seem to be integrating Saini and Rajputs. Admantine123 (talk) 16:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Conspiracy theories don't help. Yes, there is sanskritisation etc but usually in these situations it is just bad journalism. - Sitush (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I was talking about newspaper recycling from Wikipedia that you mentioned before. Some journalist will do that in an article written on the occasion of his anniversary. Admantine123 (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk Exactly. We need to draw a line under this mess. If we do, I might get my life back. Ridiculous. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion GA is a low standard. Subject-matter "specialists" matter for stuff like caste. Ahem. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

No offense, but considering that I know how hard the article's author, Indy beetle, works at studying sources, I believe that he is more of an expert on Gurbachan Singh Salaria than you. Applodion (talk) 16:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion But not caste, I'd wager. - Sitush (talk) 16:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't know, but your wording appears unneccessarily condescending and offensive, especially considering the hard work invested by Indy beetle. Applodion (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion My wording has nothing to do with Indy beetle but rather your grandiose and ill-informed statement that someone can be both Rajput & Saini. If you find it offensive then you know where to report me. - Sitush (talk) 17:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

My statement was not "grandiose and ill-informed", it was based on the fact that people exist who call themselves "Saini Rajputs". I couldn't say whether their self-identification is accrurate, but I have also always considered it problematic to just brush aside ethnic self-descriptions. Applodion (talk) 17:37, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion See Sanskritisation - if you don't know of it then you need to read it if/when you want to refer to caste again. You made a poor statement from a position of having a massive knowledge deficit & pretty much straight away assumed POV-pushing was going on.

No worries: you know now & if you ever have an inkling of concern in future then you can ping me or drop a line at WT:INB. It's a really tough area to edit & most people seem to burn out. - Sitush (talk) 17:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush: Thank you for offering support. Either way, I was aware of Sanskritisation; my issue regarding Rajput identification (or rather people telling other people that they can't be Rajputs) is related to how Rajputs emerged in the first place in the medival period, specifically Richard M. Eaton's analysis of the process. However, I know that this is a touchy subject. (Personally, I also believe that ethnicity, race, caste, etc. are ultimately only labels; for example, I would also consider someone French/German/English etc. if this person firmly self-defines as French/German/English etc., regardless of their ethnic origin. However, this is just my own viewpoint.) Applodion (talk) 18:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion: One source claims "Rajput", another says "Saini". Combining the two sources to claim that the subject belonged to a hypothetical "Saini Rajput" caste is a typical example of WP:OR to begin with. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk True. - Sitush (talk) 19:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't doubt the authenticity of this article and other sources. We just doubt the Saini-Rajput connection, which the two news source also fail to justify. None of them say that he was a member of Saini sub-caste of Rajput caste. Also, Saini article is clear on this. They are an agriculturist caste having no connection with Rajputs. Admantine123 (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on the caste system in any way, but even I know that caste and ethnicity have historically been quite fluid in India. What exactly defines an Rajput changed so much over centuries that I'm wary of any claim that someone or some group couldn't be a Rajput. Even more so on this article, which repeatedly suffered under POV pushing by various groups. Applodion (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion Well, perhaps you need to learn more about it & about Indian news sources etc. The caste claims are staying out & I have no POV: not even of Indian heritage, never been there, etc. - Sitush (talk) 17:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush: I don't know whether you hold some kind of misconception; to clarify, neither I nor Indy beetle ever cared much for ethnicity or caste. This entire article was written in the context of article expansions related to the Congo Crisis. The whole Rajput-Saini stuff was only included because sources mentioned it. Then, people started vandalizing the article, constantly changing Gurbachan Singh Salaria's religion, caste, ethnicity. At one point, we removed them (the religion was removed for good), only for other editors to come along and re-add various claims. Thus, we opted to leave the best-sourced claims there instead of allowing unsourced claims to be constantly inserted/changed. Applodion (talk) 17:37, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Applodion You sometimes have to keep "fighting". You always will where caste is concerned. People unfamiliar with Wikipedia constantly try to glorify their caste/denigrate the others. That is why a special sanctions regime was established for caste, later amended to India, Pakistan & Afghanistan generally. If needs be, this article can always be protected to limit such disruption - most major caste articles already are. Sitush (talk) 17:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

After going through the discussion, I am on the same page as Admantine123 and Sitush. Thanks! Ekdalian (talk) 17:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Sitush, Admantine123, Fylindfotberserk and Ekdalian about their comments related this page. There two communities are not same so how can he be both? Agree with the edits made by both Sitush and Admantine123. Thanks, LukeEmily (talk) 13:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes right, Fylindfotberserk has also clearly expressed their opinion, and everyone seems to be on the same page! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• When the article was originally passed as GA, there was not mention of caste. I'm perfectly fine with removing it since it doesn't add anything accept a chip on the shoulder of various caste obsessives. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Rank

Quite a few mentions of "Captain Salaria" in this article where I think it should just be "Salaria". Has anyone read WP:HONORIFIC? If I'm right, it's a bit of a surprise from a GA perspective. - Sitush (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Sainik Samachar source

Above source is a military public relations piece. It's unlikely to be reliable, especially for things like the alleged "last words". There is a phenomenal amount of mythologising of Indian military "heroes", often driven by a rampant governmental nationalism. - Sitush (talk) 16:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

If we really, really must use it, we should be attributing inline that the source comes via the Director of PR, Indian Ministry of Defence. A cite alone won't do. - Sitush (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Removed it. - Sitush (talk) 09:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Repetition

The first sentence of the PVC section pretty much repeats the last sentence of the preceding section. I've just trimmed some hagiogaphic-style phrasing there but, really, the two should be merged. It reads pompously and is unnecessary. - Sitush (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)