Talk:Grim Sleeper/Archive 1

Archive 1

Vandalism alert

Someone keeps changing the number of victims from 11 to 13, and is adding up to 15 total victims when there is supposed to be 12, 11 murders and one victim who managed to escape. This of course is as of January 14, 2009 so if the body count does change please keep that in mind god forbid it will and this psycho is caught. The false victims getting added to this list appear to be bizarre pseudonyms for literary characters and general made up names. If you look at the history of the editor you'll see he or she has been making more vulgar edits to other articles. [1] Toxee (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Please report persistent vandalism at WP:AIV. momoricks 01:50, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

John Floyd Thomas, Jr.

John Floyd Thomas, Jr. may be the Grim Sleeper.Geo8rge (talk) 01:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

His victims and modus operandi were entirely different. The Grim Sleeper shot his victims and had sex with them while they were dying. John Floyd Thomas strangled his victims. The only reason Lonnie Franklin strangled Princess Berthomieux and Valerie McCorvey was because he was not planning on murdering either day. Franklin stopped killing for fourteen years because he knew the that Enietra Washington survived and could identify him. When he saw Princess, he relapsed and had no chance to go get a gun. When he took Enietra to his neighborhood to get a gun from his house, he knew she would wait because she was expecting him to take her to her fiend's party. Figuring she was going to die, he did not fear her seeing his neighborhood. (talk) 01:15, 18 JULY 2009 (UTC)

Victim count

Is there a reason the summary has the victim count at 13 and the info box has it at 11? Rhodenr (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

List of victims

1. Debra Ronett Jackson (March 2, 1956 - August 10, 1985)

2. Henrietta Wright (August 18, 1951 – August 12, 1986)

3. Thomas S. Steele (July 25, 1950 - August 14, 1986)

4. Barbara Bethune Ware (January 8, 1963 – January 10, 1987)

5. Bernita Rochelle Sparks (September 1, 1960 – April 16, 1987)

6. Mary Katherine Lowe (February 2, 1961 – November 1, 1987)

7. Lachrica Denise Jefferson (November 23, 1965 – January 30, 1988)

8. Alice Monique Alexander (June 12, 1970 – September 11, 1988)

9. Enietra Margette Washington (b. October 17, 1958 – – Survived November 20, 1988)

10. *Princess Cheyanne Berthomieux (August 13, 1986 – March 9, 2002)

11. Valerie Louise McCorvey (March 12, 1968 – July 11, 2003)

12. Janecia Lavette Peters (December 15, 1981 – January 1, 2007)

NOTE: Interestingly, Princess was born on the day after the murder of Henrietta Wright and the day before the murder of Thomas Steele. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 01:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Hints, what section?

This particular article mentions on how, in hindsight, were hints and behavior that would have clued people in. [2] I don't know in what section or how it should be phrased within the article, though. "Hindsight" section? Perhaps in "Aftermath?" --Hourick (talk) 17:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Impartiality?

This page reads like an ad for the Weekly Standard. 173.13.119.83 (talk) 20:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Survivor’s description

My name is Becky Johnson. I am a survivor of Lonnie Franklin Jr. L.A. Weekly has the Becky Johnson Story. The only women given full credit as a survivor did not make the remark "He looked neat. Tidy. nor did she describe him as a "thin, neat, polite and well-groomed African-American guy."[12]Those statement were made by me. Her description was that he had a pock marked face and he made some rude comment about black women. I could care less about some movie being made or my name going down in fame. I am however concerned with truth,facts and giving credit where credit is due. Also there is no more proof that Lonnie Franklin stopped killing than there is that I'm a survivor. It is true that I'm not convinced he ever quit I'm positive beyond a shadow of doubt that his time line began at the least in the fall of 1979. If you do not want to include this little known fact about me that is fine but is not fine to use my quotes to misquote someone else. That is plagiarism to which I can prove. Please correct it. 98.230.12.148 (talk) 03:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC) <LA Weekly;Becky Johnson Story>

Convicted?

This article makes it sound like Franklin has been proven as the killer. While he is the only suspect, it is presumptuous and inaccurate to portray him as convicted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.161.12 (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

He has been charged with the murders, that makes him more than just a "suspect"92.19.36.44 (talk) 18:08, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he can now be referred to as "the accused." BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:38, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

How did the survivor survive?

The survivor says that the suspect shot her in the chest, sexually assaulted her, and said that he couldn't take her to a hospital because he didn't want to get caught. That all makes sense. Most killers don't want to be caught. So how did she survive? Did he decide to have "mercy" on her and dump her out to die by the side of the road instead of shooting her a second time and making sure she was dead? Did she pass out into a death-like state such that the suspect couldn't tell that she was still alive? Perhaps one of you who knows more about this case can fill in the missing information. Thanks. (71.22.47.232 (talk) 04:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC))

Many times the police and the D.A, will not release that information because they don't want to tip off the killer or mess up the prosecution in advance. This will all come out in the trial. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:41, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

6 year delay

Could someone who actually knows something about this case expand on the line in the introduction about the extreme delay in the actual trial due to pretrial discovery? Being held 6 years before even a trial is unusual to say the least, and certainly noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.207.2.2 (talk) 15:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

You really don't have to know anything about this case as long as you can find WP:Reliable sources who will give you the answer. Then you can add that info to the article. From a brief search, I deduce that the prosecution has really taken its sweet time to investigate, but there are a lot of capital cases involved here, so it can't be done in a week or even a month. The one L.A. Times story that I did check noted that the judge is pretty teed off at the delay. If you want more info about the reasons, you can search it out and add it to the story. Thank you so much. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Yip. That would be a very good general interest angle. "After spending life half his in prison, the suspect was tried and convicted ..." Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Discourse 23:03, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Listed as unknown serial killer

Someone update article List of serial killers by country ..not really sure how to do this since the suspect does not have an article yet and the Grim Sleeper is noted as an unknown in the sections which no longer holds true. AcePuppy (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Now listed at List of serial killers in the United States#Convicted serial killers under Lonnie David Franklin Jr. — Wyliepedia 23:10, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Victim table extension

This article in LA Times would be an excellent source for extending the victims table to include additional victims who were not a part of the prosecutor's list. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Discourse 22:36, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Should this be added?

I have read on various sites of an alleged gang rape Lonnie is accused of having committed in Germany along with two other U.S. Army privates in 1974.

Here is one source, from the Los Angles Times: [3]

From the above linked source: "Another woman testified that Franklin was one of three U.S. Army privates who raped her in Germany in 1974".

Here is another source, from abc7: [4]

From the above linked source: "Silverman told the jury that Franklin's reign of terror began in 1974 with a gang rape in Germany when he was in the Army".

Another source from abc7: http://abc7.com/news/grim-sleeper-jury-to-hear-testimony-from-earliest-known-victim/1356478/

From the above linked source: "Ingrid has told LAPD investigators that in April 1974, Franklin and two other Army privates raped her, after grabbing her off a street, forcing her into a vehicle, and driving her to a field near Ludwigsburg north of Stuttgart, site of many U.S. military outposts during the Cold War.

A German court convicted and imprisoned Franklin and his buddies for raping Ingrid at knifepoint. According to Franklin's defense attorney, who has reviewed the records, the findings of the German three-judge panel were accepted by the U.S. Army, which gave Franklin a general discharge.

"The German court was sentencing him to prison. It made more sense for the military to discharge him and for him to be punished by the German court system," defense attorney Seymour Amster said.""

(The above article also says that the victim is referred to as Ingrid W. to protect her identity).

Also, according to this source, he was arrested and sentenced to three years and four months for the alleged attack, but served less than one year of the sentence.

From the above source: "In 1974, when Franklin was a private in the U.S. Army stationed in Stuttgart, Germany, he was arrested and sentenced to three years and four months in prison for the rape and kidnapping of Ingrid W. as well as the attempted kidnapping of an unidentified 18-year-old woman that same night. The screams of the 18-year-old alerted neighbors, who called police.

However, Franklin served less than one year in prison."

So, should this be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.111.69.45 (talk) 08:31, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Here is another source, from CBS Los Angeles: [5]

From the above source: "Silverman also said Franklin and two other men, soldiers at the time, committed a gang rape in Germany in 1974. Silverman said the then 17-year-old victim in that case was also going to testify during the penalty phase." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.111.69.45 (talk) 10:04, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Though now that I think about it, given that two of the sources (the second from abc7 (third source overall) and the one from people.com) say that he was convicted, maybe the article should say that he did commit the gang rape rather than that he is accused of committing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.111.69.45 (talk) 14:07, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

1974 conviction?

I was just reading a piece on the People website that mentioned Franklin had been tried and convicted in the mid-70s in connection with a gang rape of a 17-year-old in Germany, while he was in the Army. This isn't mentioned anywhere in the article, though it's evidently an important point. Here are refs:

• Pelisek, Christine (June 6, 2016). "Jury Decides Death for 'Grim Sleeper' Serial Killer Lonnie Franklin". People.
• Pelisek, Christine (May 26, 2016). "Convicted 'Grim Sleeper' Serial Killer Lonnie Franklin Faces Woman He Is Accused of Gang Raping When She Was a Teen". People.

Thoughts on where and how this might be included? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:37, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

Grim Sleeper → Lonnie David Franklin Jr. – Lonnie David Franklin Jr. has been convicted and sentenced. For this reason, I would like to request that Grim Sleeper be moved to Lonnie David Franklin Jr. (With Grim Sleeper being made to redirect to Lonnie David Franklin Jr.). To support my argument that this move should be made, I would like to point out that BTK killer was moved to Dennis Rader (BTK killer) (link) which was later moved to Dennis Rader (link), and, at the time of this writing, Dennis Rader's article goes by his real name, rather than his nickname. Similarly, the Milwaukee North Side Strangler-article was moved to Walter E. Ellis (link), and, at the time of this writing, Walter E. Ellis's article goes by his real name, rather than his nickname. Furthermore, the Baseline Killer-article was moved to Mark Goudeau (link), and, at the time of this writing, Mark Goudeau's article goes by his real name, rather than his nickname.Heart of Destruction (talk) 11:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Conversely, Ilich Ramírez Sánchez was moved to Carlos the Jackal.
Seriously though, I am not objecting. I previously reverted a move to Lonnie Franklin, Jr., prior to conviction. My reason for the reversion is no longer valid, but that title should be added to the choices. It is simpler, and I suspect slightly more common. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:43, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Do not move. The case is always referred to as the Grim Sleeper. Also, precedent does not rule in Wikpedia: Each proposal should be decided on its merits. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 05:41, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Move. This is largely discussed above as a rename of the article. Agree with the proposal for reasons cited above. In response to BeenAroundAWhile perhaps this article should be renamed the 'Grim Sleeper case'. We should be covering the crime not the criminal as per WP:PERPETRATOR Hmcst1 (talk) 14:54, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Shouldn't the article be renamed?

Given that Lonnie David Franklin Jr. has been convicted, shouldn't the article be renamed "Lonnie David Franklin Jr."? From what I can tell, other article about serial killers go by their real name rather than their nickname. For example, the articles for Dennis Rader (AKA "BTK"), David Berkowitz (AKA "Son of Sam"), Timothy Wilson Spencer (AKA "Southside Strangler"), Walter E. Ellis (AKA "the Milwaukee North Side Strangler") and Vincent Johnson (AKA "the Brooklyn Strangler") all go by their real names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.173.189 (talk) 07:20, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. With a redirect from the code name. Grammar's Li'l Helper ^Discourse 16:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Agree. The content policy guiding us on this would seem to be WP:UCRN. I think you've made the point well, once a serial killer is apprehended the nickname tends to fall from the media's commentary anyhow. I think it's a little bit vulgar to use the nickname as the title. We should be guided by WP:PERPETRATORHmcst1 (talk) 14:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I was frankly a bit surprised that it's under his (disputed) moniker. GeorgeC (talk) 23:20, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

1974 attack

At the time of this writing, there are two other discussions about this on this talk page (here and here), but at the time of this writing, the first discussion only has two replies, both from the same IP that started the discussion, and the second has no replies, and both discussions are over a year old. I would like to discuss a 1974 gang rape that Franklin either committed or is accused of committing.

Qouted from this link from the Los Angeles Times: "Another woman testified that Franklin was one of three U.S. Army privates who raped her in Germany in 1974."

Qouted from this link from abc7: "Ingrid has told LAPD investigators that in April 1974, Franklin and two other Army privates raped her, after grabbing her off a street, forcing her into a vehicle, and driving her to a field near Ludwigsburg north of Stuttgart, site of many U.S. military outposts during the Cold War.

A German court convicted and imprisoned Franklin and his buddies for raping Ingrid at knifepoint. According to Franklin's defense attorney, who has reviewed the records, the findings of the German three-judge panel were accepted by the U.S. Army, which gave Franklin a general discharge.

"The German court was sentencing him to prison. It made more sense for the military to discharge him and for him to be punished by the German court system," defense attorney Seymour Amster said."

And qouted from this link from abc7: "Silverman told the jury that Franklin's reign of terror began in 1974 with a gang rape in Germany when he was in the Army. That was followed by the murder of Debra Jackson in 1985, which was initially thought to be Franklin's first murder. But now, Silverman says, there's evidence he killed Sharon Dismuke a year and a half earlier with the same gun used to kill victim No. 10 Janecia Peters in 2007."

And qouted from this link from people.com: "In 1974, when Franklin was a private in the U.S. Army stationed in Stuttgart, Germany, he was arrested and sentenced to three years and four months in prison for the rape and kidnapping of Ingrid W. as well as the attempted kidnapping of an unidentified 18-year-old woman that same night. The screams of the 18-year-old alerted neighbors, who called police.

However, Franklin served less than one year in prison.

Around 12:30 a.m. on April 17, 1974, Ingrid W., then 17, left her boyfriend’s home and was walking toward the train station when three U.S. Army soldiers pulled up alongside her in their Fiat car.

The men, who were stationed at the nearby Kelley Barracks, asked for directions, then offered her a ride home. Ingrid W. got into the car and the men drove her to a remote location at knifepoint and took turns raping her. One of them photographed the savage attack. Then they drove her home. Before she was dropped off she coaxed one of her attackers to give her his phone number. Lonnie Franklin, a 21-year-old Los Angeles native and army cook, obliged.

Ingrid W, went to the hospital and reported the attack to the police, LAPD detective Daryn Dupree tells PEOPLE. “She scheduled to meet Franklin at the train station and when she saw him, she dropped a handkerchief and that was the signal for the police to get him.”"

And qouted from a source from CBS Los Angeles: "Silverman also said Franklin and two other men, soldiers at the time, committed a gang rape in Germany in 1974. Silverman said the then 17-year-old victim in that case was also going to testify during the penalty phase."

I am afraid of breaking WP:BLP and would therefore like to discuss with other editors whether adding this to the article would violate WP:BLP. Heart of Destruction (talk) 14:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Try WP:Bold, revert, discuss. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 04:54, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: New section covering criticism of police investigation?

Some criticism of the police investigation is covered under the section "Original 1980s investigation", but after a brief mention of the Black Coalition Fighting Back Serial Murders (https://www.blackcoalitionfightingbackserialmurders.net/) (which should potentially have a dedicated wikipedia page but I digress), the rest of the article draws heavily on the police version of events.

Following the release of the Nick Broomfield documentary "Tales of the Grim Sleeper", which includes interviews with witnesses and with Margaret Prescod, there has been significant resurgence in public criticism of the entire police investigation into the "Grim Sleeper", not only of the original 1980s investigation. Also, doubt has been cast on elements of the case that this article currently presents as fact--notably, Enietra Washington is almost certainly NOT the only survivor of Lonnie Franklin Jr., but rather, the only survivor recognized by police. Broomfield's documentary includes interviews with several women who claim to have survived attacks Franklin, to have known others to have survived attacks by Franklin, as well as with women who identify either themselves or people they know as being in photos taken by Franklin which have been released to the public. Even without relying on the documentary as a source, Franklin's collection of photos of "over 180 women" compared to his "25+" suspected victims should be enough to, in my opinion, cast extreme doubt on the idea that only one person ever survived an attack by Franklin. Also, given Franklin's (1974? 1975?) conviction for gang-rape in a case where the victim did survive, I'm not sure it's necessarily accurate to discount this victim as a survivor of Franklin. I don't say this to in any way disrespect Enietra Washington or the trauma she experienced, but rather, in the same way that Franklin was given the moniker "Grim Sleeper" before being identified, and this moniker is now doubted, the salacious detail "Only one person ever survived the Grim Sleeper" could similarly be viewed as a media invention rather than a neutral and accurate reflection of the case.

Here are some sources:

https://www.blackcoalitionfightingbackserialmurders.net/archive

https://www.essence.com/news/grim-sleeper-serial-killer-lonnie-franklin-killing-black-women-predator-lapd/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/arts/television/review-tales-of-the-grim-sleeper-investigates-los-angeles-murders.html

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tales-of-the-grim-sleeper-review-hbo-117521354165.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAG9scref1lfZjCHZPThEMQqFCLlNtfUoMjm-aXhGJOWgxljwwYvs8e4Rd_SdNPONg9lNiPGlzf9Po1RYgLl1IW1Z9k0XGacRvHR_vZ4Z5EShSCEGD6A56AZ-4BZQYBvhjoqyKtf2fHWI_OldtLdrYb42esB6HubRM0R5tBbFqCZx

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tales-of-the-grim-sleeper-review_n_5940778

http://www.nickbroomfield.com/Tales-of-the-Grim-Sleeper-1

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/tales-of-the-grim-sleeper-2014

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/12/tales-of-the-grim-sleeper-nick-broomfield

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/us/grim-sleeper-dead.html

https://abcnews.go.com/US/grim-sleeper-suspect-lonnie-franklin-linked-victims/story?id=13306151

My question is--how should this be handled? Should a section be added to the existing Grim Sleeper page about the controversy surrounding the investigation? Since most of these sources (though, not all) rely heavily on the Broomfield documentary, should the documentary's page be expanded in addition to or instead of adding a section to the Grim Sleeper page? Should there be no new section of the grim sleeper page, but instead should existing sections be edited and expanded to include more discussion of the controversy? Some combination of the above?

Voltage 97 (talk) 18:38, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Wrong definition of Grim Sleeper

He wasn't called the grim sleeper because he took a break between sets of killings. I lived in los Angeles at that time, I remember.

He was called the grim sleeper because the victims were mostly prostitutes, and he would sleep with them before he would kill them.

Someone would need to go into old Los Angeles Times articles to confirm this, but he was called the grim sleeper even during the 1st set of killings, BEFORE he took a break. 2600:8801:280C:5900:D5C2:9C04:F8D8:2B4C (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 05:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Grim Sleeper → Lonnie Franklin – Per WP:OFFICIAL, "where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article", e.g. articles of convicted killers should be under their real name not a nickname given to them by the press before they were caught. TomCat4680 (talk) 00:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose move. This has no clear basis in policy; certainly, we wouldn't move Jack the Ripper (et al) if their identities were proven. O.N.R. ^(talk) 01:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: Totally different circumstances. This guy was tried and convicted. Jack the Ripper obviously never will be. Also that was an alias he gave to himself, Grim Sleeper was a nickname given to him by the press. TomCat4680 (talk) 06:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose WP:OFFICIALNAMES is not policy, but an essay stating editors incorrectly believe official names are to be used. The proposal misses the two counter-statements in the sentence there, People often assume that, where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article, and that if the article is under another title, then it should be moved. In many cases, this is contrary to Wikipedia practice and policy.. WP:COMMONNAME is the main policy, which is proposal does not prove. If sources use their real name more than the alias, then it would follow policy. DankJae 23:11, 15 February 2024 (UTC
  • Comment: The media doesn't make Wikipedia's policies. Name one other solved/convicted killer's article that's under their nickname not their real name. TomCat4680 (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  COMMONNAME is literally “secondary sources use what”. If a subject is more known by a nickname or shorter (but precise) name then Wikipedia uses that. Your proposal doesn’t cite a Wikipedia policy. Provide evidence of their real name is used more than their nickname.

  WP:OFFICIAL is an essay explaining why it ISNT a policy. DankJae 18:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Ngrams shows Grim Sleeper is the WP:COMMONNAME. DankJae 20:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.