Talk:Grace O'Malley

Requested move 2 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: I've gone back and forth over the past hour or so on whether to close this as "no consensus" or as "moved", as it's right on the line where either close could be contemplated. On the one hand, on a pure isolated question of "what is the COMMONNAME for the article?" most people would say "Grace O'Malley". However, COMMONNAME is not the be-all and end-all of article titling policy. There are, sometimes, cases where the most common name is not the most appropriate name, and COMMONNAME allows for those sorts of exceptions. So what is that most appropriate name? Several editors have pointed out that she was contemporarily known by names that more closely resembled the Irish rendering, and from what I can also tell, contemporary sources are tending to follow the more general trend of de-anglicising names (see also: Pyotr vs. Peter Tchaikovsky). This is related to the MOS:IDENTITY point brought up by SusunW; there is a general amount of sensitivity on Wikipedia given with regards to how people would render their own names (see, for example, bell hooks), and I think the obvious answer there would be "Gráinne Ní Mháille". For these reasons, I am just about satisfied that, between this discussion and precedent regarding other titles, the overall consensus is that the article should be moved. (non-admin closure). Sceptre (talk) 05:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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Grace O'Malley → Gráinne Ní Mháille – Requesting this article is moved to Gráinne Ní Mháille, which was her actual name. Grace O'Malley is only one of many variations of her name rendered in English and should not be used as the article title. As this is an article about an actual person, not a place or object, it is right to use her proper name and there is nothing in WP:Naming_conventions_(people) that suggests her name should be anglicised. Arianna the First (talk) 00:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support. There is plenty of English-language usage of her actual name as well. Ausir (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support. We should use her actual name blindlynx (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose – The common name in English for this subject is Grace O'Malley. A look at Google Ngrams produces no results for the Irish rendering. RGloucester — ☎ 02:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose move per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people (the latter of which really needs a redirect). Her common name is the English form. O.N.R. ^(talk) 03:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I've created MOS:IMOS NAMES as a shortcut. Hope that's okay. --RexxS (talk) 17:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Her entire life was spent in opposition to the English, it's disrespectful to her and the Irish people to change it to Grace for absolutely no good reason. Faye (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2020 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.206.190 (talk)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people. Anybody did a check on Google to see what was the most used form? And has anybody proof that the name is offensive to Irish people? The Banner talk 08:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • And if I must believe Seaniemcf2, there is canvassing going on on Twitter, compromising this move request. The Banner talk 12:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

    I'm not sure that there was canvassing going on on twitter - at least that wasn't what prompted me to come look but rather a discussion utterly unrelated to Wikipedia about a tv pilot about her. That had most of Irish twitter wanting her called Gráinne. I suspect that encouraged people to see which name was in main use here. Certainly the consensus on the thread I saw was that the Irish people found it... at the very least, irritating, that her name keeps getting replaced by an English substitute. ☕ Antiqueight ^chatter 22:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support. The page itself refers to "contemporary English documents" that list her name as Gráinne or a version closer to that name but not Grace. Both the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and the Dictionary of Irish Biography - Cambridge University Press in the References have her name translated but retain Gráinne. DarkerDai (talk) 09:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — DarkerDai (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support. Her name wasn't Grace O'malley, it was Gráinne Ní Mháille. Grace O'malley is just an inaccurate anglicised version of her name used and popularised by her enemies. Obviously she should be called by her real name in this instance. Seaniemcf2 (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — Seaniemcf2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support move - Gráinne is preferred as the main forename, with Grace bracketed, in high-quality modern English-language sources such as the ODNB and DIB: while Google Ngrams shows the use of 'Grace', this has a peak in usage around the 1850s. While this could reflect the age distribution of books in the Google Books corpus, use in English-language texts of that period is not necessarily indicative of modern preferred usage. Carminowe of Hendra (talk) 09:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support move Examination of primary documentation in the English manuscripts show that even when anglicising her name they use 'Grayn Ny Vale', ' Grany Ne Malley' 'Grany ne Male' or Grany ni Maelly' (Nat Archives Kew, PRO SP 63/179/f. 7). They using a phonetic representation of her given name as recognised by the English at the time. They wouldn't know who this 'Grace' referred to was. The editor in the state paper during the 19th century repeatedly puts in grace BTW. Also, if you were to decide to write about foreign leaders, say François Mitterrand you would dream of changing it to Francis for an anglophone audience, would you? So why do it here. Gallowglas1598 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 14:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  For François Mitterrand we wouldn't. But for 16th-century leaders like Henry II of France and Sebastian of Portugal we would. Maproom (talk) 15:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  And in the contemporaty state papers they did the same to foreign monarchs such as Francis I and Philip II, but not to her. As I said (and which you appear to have no counter) they phonetisised her name, they never inserted an O or used 'Grace', they said her name as she was known 'Grany ni Maelly' in one example. The Crown authorities (not even Sir Richard Bingham) didnt bastardise her name to 'Grace O'Malley' and they hated the sight of her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 08:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support move If we can have the wiki pages about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky rather than "Peter" or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89douard_Manet rather than "Edward" I don't see why we should call the personality of this debate "Grace" when her name was actually Gráinne. Policies and guidelines of Wikipedia are fine when Wikipedia can clearly demonstrate that the rule of using the English language is applied to all personalities in the English Wikipedia. It appears this is NOT always the case. Therefore, Wikipedia editors, in particular, should be more humanist and appreciate what the consensus is requesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Appariscente (talk • contribs) 16:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC) — Appariscente (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support. May I propose Gráinne O'Malley as a compromise though because Gráinne is used regularly as a name when speaking English but we will rarely use Ní Mháille over O'Malley when speaking English. And unlike "Grace" for Gráinne, that is a literal English translation. Stevenbfg (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as I assume the exonym Grace is well-established and (and) she is best known by it in reliable English-language sources. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at our article Gráinne (given name), this is the only one which is transliterated as "Grace" – which is not "a literal English translation". I've seen Gráinne referred to as implying 'short-haired" as a possible etymology. Our convention is to use whatever is commonest in modern mainstream sources, but I honestly don't think that "Grace O'Malley" vs "Gráinne Ní Mháille" (or its variants) occur often enough to draw any authoritative conclusion. My inclination would be to support the sentiments of those who prefer the Gaeilge form as it would be kind to recognise their concerns, and it really costs us nothing to do so. --RexxS (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment. There are a large number of new users and single-purpose accounts that have participated in this discussion. The closing admin will need to keep that in mind. —C.Fred (talk) 17:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Gráinne didn't even speak English so it is something of an oddity to see her written as Grace. It is not quite a translation of her name, it's merely a name the English use for people who have Gráinne as a name because there are 3 letters in common at the start. I think we should use a person's actual name not someone else's rendition of it when ever we can. ☕ Antiqueight ^chatter 19:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment This kind of echoes C.Fred, but I'd like to go a bit further. I think this discussion has been significantly overtaken by some combination of socks, meatpuppets, and canvassing, resulting in a lot of "me too" and not a lot of real discussion. PepperBeast (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people. I did do some Googling to see what name was more commonly used, and it's definitely Grace O'Malley, even within the .ie domain. I do actually think some the points above (ie, about the idea of cultural erasure and what Gráinne likely though of as her own name) are worth discussion, but it amounts to a much wider policy discussion that cannot be settled here. PepperBeast (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  Googling? Try the primary manuscripts, and secondary calendars of state papers for a bit of academic rigour. Use of 'Grace' is just leftovers of colonial mentality. Should not be maintained just because 'its always been that way', sooner jettisoned the better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I did have a look on Google scholar... 'Gráinne Ní Mháille pirate' gets 222 results, 'Gráinne Mhaol pirate', 213, and 'Grace O'Malley pirate' 1770. On JStor, it's 12, 8, and 171. I don't think that using only primary manuscripts is a good way to establish a common name in line with present policy. PepperBeast (talk) 19:10, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:IMOS. "Grace O'Malley" is demonstrably the common name used in English language sources and works. "Gráinne Ní Mháille" might be used in some works, but not to the same extent. A third alternative, "Gráinne Mhaol" (currently a redirect), might also be considered a viable redirect. But this also doesn't supersede the current title. And is somewhat of a later invention, applied as a "lionised" title to the subject by later nationalist movements. In short, crusading SPA editors (espousing a rationale of "disrespect" on behalf of the subject or Irish people/speakers) are better served looking at the relevant project policies. Guliolopez (talk) 02:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  A later invention? That was the name used by English administrators in Ireland at the time. 'Grace O'Malley is the later invention, becoming a convenient shorthand for anglophone writers in later centuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 08:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support per AntiqueEight and Gallowglas1988 (though I'd prefer "Gráinne Mhaol" over "Gráinne Ní Mháille", as that's the name I personally have encountered most often). Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:23, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:Commonname. Whilst I have seen one or two mentions of Grainne the vast majority has been Grace. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support, as has been said, her name was Gráinne Ní Mháille and she didn't speak English, so why should the Anglicised rendering be used?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.212.230 (talk)
• Support and for the record, I did not come here via Twitter, nor do I have a twitter account or use that platform. There is absolutely no reason that this person's name (or any other person's name for that matter) should be Anglicized, regardless of the number of sources that support using an Anglicized version. WP:Commonname does not state that the name must be the one most commonly used in sources, but rather that it is "generally prefered". Looking at other naming convention guidelines for help, I note that while WP:Deadname does not speak to the issue of historic figures nor does MOS:IDENTITY, the logic of both is clearly to use what would have been used by the person. In the US, this situation exists most prominently for Native Americans, wherein colonizers gave their communities and people names which have been rejected. For example, though there are plenty of sources that list the former name of the Tohono O'odham, we don't use that name, because the people to whom it refers find it unacceptable. Her name was never Grace and it shouldn't be that regardless of whether there are sources out there that call her that. SusunW (talk) 14:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Both WP:Deadname and MOS:IDENTITY are irrelevant for this discussion, not a specific American example. The Banner talk 14:52, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually they are relevant. The English colonized Ireland and renamed Irish cultural figures and items. While sourcing comes from England, the same could be said for the multitudes of people who were slaughtered by the conquest from various nations. For example, the Maya codices were destroyed and what we know of them exists in 3 partial texts and Spanish records. That does not mean that the terms about them should be Spanish for all time. Spain was a repository for the records, just as in this case, England became an archive. As for your statement that a US example isn't relevant, it doesn't matter that it came from another place that was colonized, the experiences of the people were similar in that they and their culture were renamed by others. SusunW (talk) 15:30, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Like it or not, what is relevant to naming articles on English Wikipedia is what the subject is called most frequently in English according to academic & other reliable sources published in English. Nothing else is relevant. Nothing. If that were made clearer, we wouldn't have to have lengthy battles like this about matters which are not relevant to the naming of Wikipedia articles on English Wikipedia. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Both Cambridge (Royal Irish Academy) Dictionary of Irish National Biography and Oxford Dictionary of National Biography use 'Gráinne O'Malley', is that academic enough? Its a compromise but a fair one — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gallowglas1598 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

English wp has no requirement for sources to be "published in English"; it requires that they be reliable and Verifiable. SusunW (talk) 18:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

When it comes to frequency of name usage in English, for English Wikipedia (= common name) yes it does. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support move This is the general consensus of her real name. The anglicized version can be a redirect for anyone searching for her. Also, I believe MOS:IMOS NAMES overrules WP:COMMONNAME in this situation. Montanabw^(talk) 15:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Not the common name in English sources. Dimadick (talk) 15:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support move per SusunW. Note, most of the articles I start these days are about historical women so I deal with this issue (what to call her) a lot. But I've also dealt with it in years past when I created articles about old Spanish churches/monasteries. Note, I did not come here via Twitter. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose move per WP:COMMONNAME. I concede that the suggestion to compromise with "Gráinne O'Malley" seems quite a sensible one, but I think the mention of WP:DEADNAME in this context is ludicrous! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 13:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Per COMMONNAME, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". Gráinne O'Malley is a possible compromise per Stevenbfg, as the "Grace" part is particularly inaccurate. Hrodvarsson (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Can you explain (and proof) why you consider the name inaccurate? The Banner talk 23:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Because her name was not "Grace O'Malley". Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

And that is just a statement, not proof. The Banner talk 09:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

After close discussion

@Sceptre: Where is the consensus for a close and the decision you have decided to enforce? It is quite clear there is anything but a consensus and this is not how such discussions on contested proposals are done. 16 for and 9 against does not equal an overall consensus and Wikipedia is not a democracy. I would suggest requesting more input before coming up with such notions and would suggest you self revert. Mabuska ^(talk) 08:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Sceptre: I object against your decision. For a non-admin close there must be a clear consensus, and as you can see that is not the case. The Banner talk 09:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

If you take out the 3 socks or IPs who only have edited in this discussion, the tally is actually 13 for and 9 against. The close decision was an even worse decision by Sceptre. I will revert on that basis . Mabuska ^(talk) 09:19, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, it doesn't seem to be working, possibly due to the unusual way the move was performed. I can however revert the the edits done by Sceptre to the article on the basis on No consensus. Mabuska ^(talk) 09:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Consensus isn't a vote-counting exercise; it's based upon the strength of arguments. Just a "per COMMONNAME" without going into detail why is an incredibly weak argument in an RM, and multiple editors pointed to both historical and contemporary evidence that "Gráinne" is more appropriate in the article title than "Grace", which was taken into account in closing the discussion. Sceptre (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Your opinion on the discussion runs contrary to the WP:IMOS in regards to naming articles, which as I was recently informed on a similar topic trumps general policy. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I have brought the incorrect non-admin close to the Administrators Noticeboard for review: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Incorrect_non-admin_closure. The Banner talk 09:57, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• Since this looks like it might get reopened, I support the move. Gráinne Ní Mháille was her actual name. I can see arguments of COMMONNAME for people like, say, Lemmy rather than Ian Kilmister but Lemmy embraced that name during his lifetime whereas there is good reason to think Gráinne Ní Mháille wouldn't have particularly liked "Grace O'Malley". Reyk _YO! 10:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• The decision is the correct one. Mumbai, not Bombay' Beijing, not Peking; Uluru not Ayer's Rock. The same principle applies to people, and will become more and more common as geography and history books are de-anglicised. There is still an argument for Gráinne Mhaol over Gráinne Ní Mhaille, but either is better than the wrong name, and a name she never went by in life, being used. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I want to re-iterate that the issue under discussion here (ie, some version of "real name" vs. "common name") is well above this discussion page's pay grade. Current policies (both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:IMOS) make it pretty clear that this article should be titled Grace O'Malley, the name by which she in most commonly known in English-language publications (which puts her squarely in line with everyone from Christopher Columbus to Confucius). Having said that, the sheer fact that her real name was Gráinne is non-trivial, and that may not be well enough addressed by WP policy. However, this is a discussion page for this article only. For the present, we have to apply the existing policy. If Wikipedia policy is significantly out-of-step with reasonable, modern editorial standards or just too much of a blunt instrument, then it's time for new discussions (RFC?) of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:IMOS. PepperBeast (talk) 14:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

  Actually, we don't have to apply existing policy, since it's possible to argue that changing the title improves the article, which satisfies WP:5P5.

  Nevertheless, there is an argument that the trend in naming has shifted from Grace O'Malley to Gráinne Ní Mháille as we move away from mid-19th century sources, and that does not seem to have been rebutted. At the risk of repeating myself, this is the only article on the English Wikipedia for someone whose given name was Gráinne that uses the anglicisation "Grace". We seem to have agreed that Gráinne is the right form for all of the others and that ought to show how the issue is handled generally – and policy is supposed to reflect usage, not the other way round. --RexxS (talk) 15:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The 2007 edition of the Oxford Companion to Irish History edited by S J Connolly mentions only Grace O'Malley also known as Granuile. No mention of Grainne. Also just because she only spoke Irish (so we are told) does not mean automatically that she would be aghast to find her name Anglicised as Grace. That is OR at its worst. For all we know she may even have liked it if it was used in her time. But we will never know and shouldn't decide what she felt. Instead we follow the IMOS on the issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The great irony is that in this discussion only the mention of Ngram and from the looks of it the academic source I provided mentioned above are the only evidence provided by either side ignoring the socks, of which one mentioned a source using the translated name. The rest appears to be nothing but personal opinion, possibly influenced by recentism even. Not a great way to settle which is more common for use and thus why this move was poorly done and against IMOS. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:24, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Please re-read my comments above. I didn't do any in-depth research, but I did at least search via Google, Google Scholar, and JStor for relative name frequency. PepperBeast (talk) 17:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I apologise for missing your contribution, which does have major bearing on the issue as it only further backs up why this move was wrong and does not meet the requirements for the move. Where is the evidence that Grainne Ni Mhaille is the predominant English use name? Nowhere to be seen. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:55, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Should not have been moved. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:23, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Three big problems with this close

@Sceptre: You’ve mentioned a fantastic “more appropriate” criterion several times, but it has no basis in relevant policy at WP:AT. That’s one big problem with your close.

As to “citing COMMONNAME without going into detail why“, that’s common practice when the name in question is unquestionably the one most commonly used in reliable English sources, which is clearly the case here. To dismiss those arguments as “incredibly weak” flies in the face of how RMs have been evaluated since day 1. That’s another big problem with your close.

While the arguments in Support here based on original usage are good arguments, they don’t belong in WP RM discussions and so those are the ones that should have been dismissed. Those are arguments to be made at publisher’s offices. If and when such arguments prevail with publishers of reliable English sources, then we can use that as basis to move an article such as this one, based on COMMONNAME. That’s the third big problem with your close.

This article should not have been moved. —В²C ☎ 19:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

"Commonly known" or "commonly known in English"?

I cannot find this reversal helpful. The fact that a person's name has been anglicized does not automatically mean that they are commonly known worldwide by that English exonym. I believe in the best possible clarity and not in assuming that English dominates everything on the planet. I was against the move because the exonym apparently is what she overwhelmingly is referred to in reliable English-language sources, which is how I still believe policy on English Wikipedia dictates that articles should be named. Now that the move has been done (with tactics that I have strongly objected to) let's not retaliate with a lack of clarity which we does not inform our readers correctly. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Could you clarify, what change are you proposing? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Couldn't be clearer if you use the link I provided. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:37, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

"anglicised and commonly known as Grace O'Malley" means almost the same as "anglicised and commonly known in English as Grace O'Malley." Neither would be entirely accurate, though. "anlgicised and known outside Ireland as Grace O'Malley" might pass muster, though? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:06, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I looked up the results in Dutch (just for fun) and "Grace O'Malley" got twice as much hits as "Gráinne Ní Mháille". But as far as I know this is the English language Wikipedia, as stated on the main page: This Wikipedia is written in English. not the Irish language version. The Banner talk 17:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

How did Gráinne Mhaol fair? I get far more hits for Ayer's Rock than I do for Uluru, too, but we've recognised cultural appropriation is a bad thing. But didn't we make these arguments already? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

"anlgicised and known outside Ireland as Grace O'Malley" might pass muster, though? Any evidence to back up your claims or just more of your clear bias on the matter that you've displayed at your talk page and elsewhere? At least those that opposed the move did so as far as I'm aware simply because of policy, which for now still exists. If your issue is with "cultural appropriation" then argue at the relevant policy talk pages for change instead of backing policy violations at articles.

Personally the sentence is poor as it is. We state also known as Grainne O'Malley and then state Anglicised as Grace O'Malley. Is O'Malley not an anglicisation? Better wording is needed. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:30, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I was interested to see that my Google searches for "Gráinne Ní Mháille" (26,800), "Grainne Ni Mhaille" (25,300), "Gráinne Mhaol" (25,700), and "Grainne Mhaol" (25,800) gave me different sites (all in English) on the first page as well as different totals. No doubt there are other variants of the name, all of which leads me to be suspect of using Google results as indicators of anything. Google Scholar follows the same pattern, albeit with much smaller numbers, so I'm no more confident of that. --RexxS (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Grammar problem ...

... in the first sentence of the lead. I don't know why, according to this revert Wikipedia would want to say that "he anglicised name of Gráinne Ní Mháille, and also known as Gráinne O'Malley[1] was the lord of the Ó Máille dynasty ... " The name was not the lord. The woman was. Agreed? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

We wouldn't, and we don't. It's perfectly understandable, normal grammar. It would read better with the anglicisation dealt with in brackets, and I'll make that change now. Your change - "Grace O'Malley (c. 1530 – c. 1603), as per the anglicised name of Gráinne Ní Mháille" - is the ungrammatical one. "GO'M, in accordance with the anglicised name of GNíM"? What does that mean? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:38, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I've taught English since 1964, but not you. I've also been paid huge sums by firms & individuals for correcting this kind of thing. Not by you. Your English & mine are not the same. Let's leave it at that! Now, I'll have a look at what you've done today. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:16, 12 September 2020 (UTC)--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:16, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

We now have back-to-back parentheses, which is a no-no, plus we still have a misplaced modifier in the opening sentence, but now it's double.

1. The article name is now also what the article is about, not the woman.
2. The anglicized version of her name was the lord, not the woman.

Still needs to be fixed, in other words. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:28, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I suggest:

Grace O'Malley (c. 1530 – c. 1603), widely known by her native name Gráinne Ní Mháille and also known as Gráinne O'Malley,was the lord of the Ó Máille dynasty in the west of Ireland, and the daughter of Eoghan Dubhdara Ó Máille.

--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:32, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Gentlemen, gentlemen... please calm down. No need for a boxing contest. The Banner talk 11:51, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Calm down? What on earth motivated that remark? I am, and have been, quite calm here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Good edit. Thanks. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:50, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

That edit is a load of silliness. All that is needed to be stated is "also known by her Irish name". Stating "widely" is contentious and without evidence, promoting a falsehood as fact, and stating "native name" is political point scoring and not the norm in how we deal with the matter. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:37, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

The only silliness is you claiming it's a falsehood without evidence. You had your little victory with reversing the page move, please stop flogging the dead horse. It's beneath you. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

The statement of "widely" is a falsehood and has nothing to do with the name of the article. You keep trying to portray something as more common than it really is. You really need to stop with your flogging of a dead horse. I note you ignored the point on political point scoring. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

What - precisely - is "false" about over 21,000 google hits for Gráinne Ní Mháille? I don't understand what 'political point scoring' exists in pointing out what her actual name was or that's it's commonly used. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:06, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Once again, "common name" and "use English" win the discussion, as they are longstanding well-established rules here. If you try this in the future, please make sure you show exactly how "Gráinne O'Malley" is the common name in our shared language. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 19:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

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Grace O'Malley → Gráinne O'Malley – Consistency with the official name of the historical figure, improperly closed discussion. Jamesroseman (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Google Trends indicates that both Grace O'Malley and Gráinne O'Malley are equally unsearched for terms. By Wikipedia's own tenets on naming, we should be looking at recognizability, naturalness, precision, conciseness, and consistency. This historical figure is best known by her Irish name, seeing as she is an Irish figure and that heritage is a part of the cause she is known for (see also: Muhammad Ali v. Cassius Clay). Across Wikipedia, more pages refer to this historical figure by her Irish name (either Gráinne Ní Mháille, Gráinne Mhaol, or Gráinne O'Malley). That similar figures (Jacques de Sores, Jan van Ryen) keep their natural-born names is precedent for this move. Additionally, the past page move request (July 2020) is under review for administrative impropriety. A look at Google NGrams provides credence to Gráinne O'Malley or Gráinne Mhaol as alternatives. Jamesroseman (talk) 21:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Why should the earlier discussion be improperly closed? For your information: this is the English-language Wikipedia. The Banner talk 21:58, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The "English-language Wikipedia" manages to respect many historical figures whose names are not in English when that name is more accurate or else better known (see: Éduard Manet). I contend that Grace O'Malley is equally known, but less accurate, than Gráinne O'Malley. Jamesroseman (talk) :::That is not an answer as why the earlier move request was improperly closed. The Banner talk 22:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussions and comments above cover this, no need to go over it again. The nominator just happens to agree with many of the discussion participants. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Or he just does not agree with an outcome not conform his opinion. The Banner talk 23:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Gráinne Ní Mháille is her name, and for a major historical figure to have an article with a totally different name (supposedly her "name" in English, and if you called her 'Grace' to her face she'd probably cut ya) doesn't do Wikipedia well. And for your viewing and listening pleasure, the pirate queen and her singing counterpart. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:03, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. This is the English Wikipedia and we use the common English name for historical figures. For example: John Calvin, not Jehan Cauvin or Jean Calvin. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• And Joan of Arc. How hard is it to spell Jeanne d'Arc. Maybe it should be at Jeanne d'Arc with Joan of Arc listed as the common name. Even her father Jacques and brother Pierre get to keep their real names. There should be some exceptions to spelling a name in English, Wikipedia allows for exceptions and the ignoring of any rule. Jeanne d'Arc seems like one of those. As is, potentially, this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• So you want to move Joan of Arc too? I think that's highly unlikely to happen. "Jeanne d'Arc" simply isn't very recognizable to most English Wikipedia readers, and the main reason that we title articles by their common name is for recognizability, so that average readers will easily be able to find the article that they are searching for. And it's so predictable how people always seem to want to ignore all the rules when Wikipedia policy is so clearly against their position. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• That's the only way ignore all rules works, the last resort for common sense concepts. I know Joan of Arc being moved is unlikely, and haven't tested it. This one though, Grace O'Malley is so far from her real name as to be a different name altogether. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Well this is a formal move request discussion, and is therefore supposed to be based on Wikipedia's article naming policies. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:55, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but ignore all rules says to ignore those policies for a common sense move. To the victor shouldn't go all the spoils. Tis the rebel in Wales. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:04, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Since you're citing ignore all rules as the justification for moving this article, that obviously means that you agree that moving this article would be a violation of WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people. My comments from the last time this was discussed (less than a year ago) still stand. I did do some Googling and searching via Google scholar to see what name was more commonly used, and it's definitely Grace O'Malley, even within the .ie domain. I do actually think some the points made about "accuracy" and what Gráinne likely though of as her own name are worth discussing, but not here. That amounts to a much wider policy discussion that cannot be settled on a single article talk page. For now, Gráinne can continue to keep company with everyone from Confucius to Sitting Bull. PepperBeast (talk) 02:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Your comments last move are irrelevant, this topic is discussing the name Gráinne O'Malley, not her birth name. The use of Grace and Gráinne as her first name are equal in every Trends I've checked, and Grace is egregiously inaccurate. We should defer to accuracy here. Jamesroseman (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, indeed Google Trends has a far more American outlook than the editors involved in this discussion. The Banner talk 10:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This isn't the "American" Wikipedia, it's the English-language Wikipedia. Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose move. This is the same as last year's RM, which was very contentious and ended with no move. My common-name argument from last time still stands; she's typically Grace O'Malley in English. O.N.R. ^(talk) 05:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This is not the same as last year's RM, which requested a move to Gráinne Ní Mháille, while this is for a move to Gráinne O'Malley. She is equally known as Gráinne O'Malley and Grace O'Malley, so we should defer to accuracy here. Jamesroseman (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support move. Yes, there is WP:COMMONNAME, but that is inconclusive for me - I'm getting almost as many search results for "Gráinne O'Malley" as for "Grace O'Malley" (and then there are obviously more at "Gráinne Mhaol" and "Gráinne Ní Mhaille". "Grace" is simply wrong and wasn't used in contemporary texts. There is, as alluded to above, the issue of colonialism and appropriation. We have articles at Uluru and Kolkata, not at Ayer's Rock and Calcutta for a reason. And that reason isn't WP:COMMONNAME. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:00, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose English Wikipedia should use her well-established English exonym. Recently decided, no development since then, needs no further action. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:11, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This is not the same as last year's RM, which requested a move to Gráinne Ní Mháille, while this is for a move to Gráinne O'Malley. She is equally Gráinne O'Malley and Grace O'Malley, so we should defer to accuracy here.Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people and per a check in some Irish newspapers, where one newspaper came with the question "Who?" when asking if it knew Gráinne O'Malley. The other two came up with a few hits about that name, against hundreds at Grace O'Malley. The Banner talk 10:30, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

The linked guide to Irish naming contains itself a reference to when to choose English vs. Irish names. "Where the English- and Irish-language names are different: ...and the English name predominates in English, use the English name <does not apply> ...and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English, use the English name <does not apply> ...and the Irish name is official and has gained favour in English, use the official Irish name <does not apply>." Additionally, the guide itself references Máirtín Ó Cadhain, whose Anglicized name (Martin Kyne) is not used because of the aforementioned rules. That one newspaper had one article is not reason enough. Grace O'Malley and Gráinne O'Malley are equal in popularity, so we should use the more accurate one. Jamesroseman (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, with regard to WP:COMMONNAME: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, Delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively)." Jamesroseman (talk) 13:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. We should follow the sources and guidelines, not a private opinion. The Banner talk 14:36, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

"We should follow the sources and guidelines" -- I agree, we should. Gráinne O'Malley (or Gráinne Mhaol) is the correct choice, adhering to naming conventions as laid out by Wikipedia. I have provided my reasoning above for why this is the case. Jamesroseman (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Than prove your point with the sources. Not with your Google Trends, as that supporthe the use of Grace O'Malley... The Banner talk 15:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

And about your NGram in your original response: I have added a few years and an extra name (yes, Grace O'Malley) and see the result. The Banner talk 15:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Jamesroseman, it's really not necessary or helpful to engage with every contributor with an opposing viewpoint. Please see WP:BLUDGEON. Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:45, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Apologies! Jamesroseman (talk) 17:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. Springnuts (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Late to the party but just adding my oppose based on my previous request responses. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)