Talk:Gounder/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cleanup

The article has issues. Most of them are related to the manual of style. There are basic issues like a lack of citations and formatting. E_dog95' ^{Hi '} 18:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

This fully manual style Rajkamalkamaraj (talk) 19:30, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

how can u say like this

The 'Gounder' is a title and not a caste name. It is mainly used by vettuva gounders in the kongu region. The Vettuva Gounders only first got the Gounder title, then only the vellalars. They are projecting a fake history. In their Gazette name they dont even have a single word as Gounder, they wil have as 'Kongu Vellalar' only. There is no connection between Kongu velirs and Kongu Vellalars, since they were not referred in any of the sanga poems. I strictly oppose 'Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder's words //gounder is title, some one has to give it in ancient time,for some reason. this title had only given to kongu vellala gounder and our related clans, of the ancient kongu country (includeing southern karnataka) .this is not a comman title//. what is the proof and what are all the evidences...

//ther castes like vanniar,vokkaligas are linking Gounder to their castes are done to take some pride and respect, same has been done in tamil movies of past and present , an actor performing in a movie as gounder doesn't become a gounder , same applies for the people you mention , Kongu Vellalar is an integral part of the Gounder caste and there are multiple divisions.making edits without proper research makes no sense// SyberGod said like this...

Reply to syberGod: 1) vanniyars and vokkaligas are not linking the gounder title. u should remember that gounder is mere a title and not a caste name. 2) vokkaligas are the gowda's of karnataka, the vokkaliga's of karnataka use gowda while the Vokkaliga's in tamilnadu use gounder title. They are not linking to the great gounder title. 3) vanniars also got gounder title. The vanniyars is a big society which has many sub clans or caste names such as 'vanniya kula shatriya', 'vanniyar', 'padayachi gounder'. so u have no logic to oppose them. i guess u r too greedy to claim the title to your community and exclude others. 4) u have excluded the vettuvars name meaning they were not in the game..?? and u have said something about the films and actors. Do u know that in all the gounder films they will show a palace.. (for eg: suriyavamsam) which is called as 'the puravipalayam jameen' and which belongs to Vettuva Puluva Gounder community. The palace is also called as 'gounder aranmanai'. Finally u are only making edits without proper research... --Vettuva perumannan 'Sathish Gounder' (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me state about the Gounder title...

1) The title is only given to those who protects the people and the one who protects a people will be a shatriya vamsi. 2) Kongu Vellalars are not of shatriya varnam, they faked it. 3) y they dont have the word 'gounder' in their gazette name..?? did they forgot when the british raj surveyed..?? 4) Evidences where there that a Vettuva Gounder gave them the gounder title and seperated kulams between them. (y some kulam names are common between the both communities?? eg. maniyan, anthuvan, kadai... there is no marriage ceremonies between the two communities, then how the kulam names were same, its because the vettuvars seperated koottams among them, if they oppose to it just think that who were the early aborigins and who were the latter settlers) 5) If they were the One and only Gounders then why the first respect an all the ancient temples of the Kongunadu were given to Vettuva Gounders..?? it means that the so called 'gounder caste' is a second community in the kongu region and the assumed Gounders(Vettuvars) were the first community. --Vettuva perumannan 'Sathish Gounder' (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Request to wiki team...

Kindly correct this line //In Tamil Nadu, the title predominantly refers to the Kongu Vellalars but it is also used by the Vettuva Gounders, Vanniars and Vokkaligas//. Genreally specify who and all use this title. It predominantly refers to Kongu Vellalar means what it means..? the others have assumed...?? actually the truth is different — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathishgounder (talk • contribs) 19:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC) --Vettuva perumannan 'Sathish Gounder' (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Multiple iussues

This article deals with the encylopedic treatment of what the title gounder means and who uses it. But instead it is a POV of one caste members trying portray their version over others. Instead of writing a neutral and simple entry about Gounder which i found not just in India but South Africa, Malaysia, Reunion and Fiji, this article has become a battle ground of caste wars. Kanatonian (talk) 20:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

The title itself is a caste :)SyberGod (talk) 20:59, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

For trhose who are immersed in caste, it is difficult to see. But from a neutral point of view, this is a title used by many in many counries. Atleast can we have simple articles in Wikipedia so that people around the world can come and get some information instead of all the silly caste mudslinging represented here. You can have your Kongu Vellar page as messed up as you want. I am not going waste my time there cleaning it up but this article needs to be written from a neutral point of view. Kanatonian (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

other castes like vanniar,vokkaligas are linking Gounder to their castes are done to take some pride and respect, same has been done in tamil movies of past and present , an actor performing in a movie as gounder doesn't become a gounder , same applies for the people you mention , Kongu Vellalar is an integral part of the Gounder caste and there are multiple divisions.making edits without proper research makes no sense SyberGod (talk) 22:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

one option is to create Gounder (title) and Gounder (caste) articles and use this as a dab page. --CarTick (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with that proposal, Kanatonian (talk) 14:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

you guys read my last comment on this topic quoting it "making edits without proper research makes no sense"

SyberGod (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

There are reliable sources that indicate castes other than Kongu Vellalar also use them and as an encylopedic project we have to give all credible and reliable sources and the opinion they bring forward equal footing not what one caste member may think should be to, protect their own caste interests. What CarTick makes is a good sensible solution. An article for tile, another Dab for different castes using the tiles that link to the caste articles. Kanatonian (talk) 16:05, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

come up with reliable sources on title and caste , then we'll see...SyberGod (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

See the link. For example, the term "Gounder" may denote a person of Vellalar, Vanniyar or Gollar Caste. wish i had access to the book. --CarTick (talk) 18:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

There are lots and lots of RS sources, that say Kavuntan, Kavundan or Kavuntar and in English Gounder is a title originally copied from Kannada Gouda title for a village headman but picked up by many castes and even linguistic groups. Kannada and even Malayalam speakers use this tile.[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6],[7]Kanatonian (talk) 19:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

no point arguing with some , no books , come up with multiple reliable links !SyberGod (talk) 22:30, 26 January 2011 (UTC) see WP:IRS SyberGod (talk) 00:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Read Filibuster, I will get others interested in this subject to discuss this as well.Kanatonian (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Also very clearly CASA is run by anthropologists, and its publicatiosn are RS, Evelyn Masalimani- Meyer is well published researcher and her publications are academic RS. This just two of the 8 books listed above. Very clearly we have enough sources to write about exactly what CarTick says. Kanatonian (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

[8], [9], [10] More RS sources Kanatonian (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

when someone firmly believes copyright is shit, i would be concerned about their intention and competence to edit wikipedia. i dont think, they even deserve being responded and explained to. --CarTick (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

///Gounder is a title originally copied from Kannada Gouda title for a village headman but picked up by many castes and even linguistic groups.///

can u please prove this . can u show me Inscription of vanniar caste person having gounder title(i.e Kamindan) and other caste which claim gounder title. "For instance, the Gangadikar Vokkaligas of the Western Ganga dynasty share their origin with the Thooran Kootam of the Kongu Vellalar Gounder caste, a prominent Gowda community from Tamil Nadu. They migrated to Halebid in Hassan district and spread across the state."[11][12][13], founder of western ganga dyanasty is konganivarma madhava rayan. kongu vellala gounder is called as gangakulam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.172.27.85 (talk) 15:55, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

@talk please show Epigraphy record belongs to other caste men name has kamidan or kamudan or kavundan etc... title . Only Archaeological records can prove it.

other caste people use this title to resemble kongu vellala gounder —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.166.163.172 (talk) 08:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I have struck out the sentence as I dont want to waste more time on this issue. Anon alias Sybergod, please stick to one name in discussions so as to avoid compliants of sockpuppets. Then read WP:RS, it shows very clearly we have to use reliable sources to write articles in Wikipedia. I am not doing original research in wikipedia by analyzing archeological records. That is for researchers to do. Very clearly without getting into any side issues like Gowda (the original pronouciation in Kannada was Kaavunda) versus Kavundar, we can write about a title article for Kavundan/r and a dab article linking to all castes that use it and in one of those articles you can explian how the title was originally used by only Kongu Vellala Kavundar at some point and now is used by other castes as long as it is backed by reliable sources. Kanatonian (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

@ [Kanatonian|Kanatonian] , i had posted the above two reply ,to u only one can discuss--Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

//I am not doing original research in wikipedia by analyzing archeological records. That is for researchers to do. Very clearly without getting into any side issues like Gowda (the original pronouciation in Kannada was Kaavunda) versus Kavundar, we can write about a title article for Kavundan/r and a dab article linking to all castes that use it //

///Very clearly without getting into any side issues like Gowda (the original pronouciation in Kannada was Kaavunda) versus Kavundar/// do u know that kannada language is derived from tamil [14](until 17 th century kongu nadu means western tamil nadu ,southern karnataka, and some are in kerala) "The Vēļāļar of the Tamil country (the descendants of the Vēļir) have retained the honorific till this day in their names (c.f kaņţar, kavuņţan and 'gouņder' (the last two from Ka.gauda<ganda)"[15]--Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

//now is used by other castes as long as it is backed by reliable sources.// In Effect ,numerous communities add it to their name for reasons of prestige,hoping to resemble the dominant caste of the Kongu Vellalar Gounders .[16]--Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC) Gounder caption was really belongs only to kongu vellalas , seeing the prestige other lower level mcommunities time being adopted and added the Gounder THIS IS THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.178.153.103 (talk) 18:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

// We completly disagree with Porulur Poosan's remark on gounder signifies only Vellalar gounder, there are many of the historical Ponnar Shanakr stroy is proved as goofup by recent book released by researchers, we are getting copy right information to publicly present the story with archeology support. Gounder is a common word and no single community owns it.mohanv (talk) 07:03, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

@mohanv //We completly disagree with Porulur Poosan's remark on gounder signifies only Vellalar gounder// show me the other caste persons name Inscriptions which hold gounder title in their name. i can show u the number of incription of kongu vellala gounder person name with gounder title rite from 4 th century A.D to 19 th century A.D.Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 08:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

//there are many of the historical Ponnar Shanakr stroy is proved as goofup by recent book released by researchers, we are getting copy// right information to publicly present the story with archeology support. // even basically Ponnar Shankar Story is about Kongu Vellala Gounders,wheather it says that Gounders title is to every one, this international website will say u the clear think about this story http://www.legendofponnivala.com/ Annamar swami kathai (15th century poet pichai pattan(பிச்சை பட்டன்) written) http://www.esnips.com/doc/8da4cca0-8306-499e-a521-54810fc6f028/Annamarswami-kathai i am early waiting for u r proof,show up here .what messup u had foundPorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 08:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

//Gounder is a common word and no single community owns it.// gounder is title, some one has to give it in ancient time,for some reason. this title had only given to kongu vellala gounder and our related clans, of the ancient kongu country (includeing southern karnataka) .this is not a comman titlePorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 08:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

//he title itself is a caste :) -syberGod// from this sentence, one can conclude that all the claims u do are fake. //even basically Ponnar Shankar Story is about Kongu Vellala Gounders,wheather it says that Gounders title is to every one, this international website will say u the clear think about this story http://www.legendofponnivala.com/ // the ponnar shankar story is a story which is excluded even by the researchers as a fake story. its fully fake. i can prove it. it cannot be taken into account as a history. with that story, u r only creating speculations but the story fails to create speculations. do u know in how many verses the author pichan have degraded kongu vellala gounders heritage..?? u r claiming the gounder title with that fake story..?? from this it is clear that u have never read 'kallalakar ammaanai' and pichan's 'annamar swamy kathai' wiki team and dear kongu friends read 'ponnar shankar - oru aiviyal nool' by la.baranan and put your claims i will answer. Do u have any kings from ur community..?? name them and give proof... kongu vellalars were not 'gangakulam', kongu vellalars were not in kongunadu in sangam period... can u prove that kongu vellalars were in kongunadu during sangam period. Actually speaking, the story is not written by a kongu vellalar and the main motto of the story is to degrade the rebelling kshatriya clan 'vettuvar gounders' during nayakka reign. The Vettuvars were against Nayakars while the Vellalars favoured them by ruling under them. After the nayakka reign only vellalars started to rule, and that too not as kings but under palayapats. But Vettuvars were world known kshatriya's, the Vettuvars have been as kings right from the sangam. Do u need any proof, i will give u... u show me a king from kongu vellalars. Even Reddiyars restricted 'samapanthi' with kongu vellalars then how they will be the gangakula kings?? answer my questions sir.... --Vettuva perumannan 'Sathish Gounder' (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Kongu vellalar does not have the title as Gounder in government gazate then wiki is allowing to use that word. other than this caste having the title as Gounder in government gazzate Rajkamalkamaraj (talk) 19:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Vokkaligas

i believe vokkaligas use the title Gowder. well, the lead mentions that the variant is used by other castes, but a bit more clarification wouldnt be bad. --CarTick (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I have heard them "Gounder" too (OR alert :-))--Sodabottle (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

i didnt know that. well, i cant access the current reference. --CarTick (talk) 19:08, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

see also

An ip keeps adding Dheeran Chinnamalai and Silambam to the "see also" section. This article is about the title and not the caste. These two articles are not related directly to the title. Please stop adding them here.--Sodabottle (talk) 15:49, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Why not include a word about Gounders often referred in media

Various dailies, weekly & monthly magazines, channels and movies belonging to Indian and TamilNadu media just mentions the word Gounder. All these references are made to Kongu Vellalars.[17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27] Though some magazines mention them as Vellala Gounders, those are very few. Most of them, just mention the word Gounder. The word Gounder may be a title name used by various castes but we need to clarify/specify the caste that is mentioned in a number of English and Tamil media.

When I went through some of the articles in above mentioned dailies and tried searching the meaning of gounder in wikipedia, this article took me into confusion. Those articles mention Gounders and Vanniars as separate communities. But this wikipedia article leads to the assumption that those Gounders mentioned in the media and Vanniars are same although they are different in TamilNadu.

Only a section of Vanniyars use Gounder title. Other sections of Vanniyars use titles like Naicker, Padayatchi, Reddiar etc.[28] Similarly, only a section of Vettuvars and Vokkaligas use Gounder title. Vettuvars of South TamilNadu don't use Gounder title.[29] Only in Western region, Vettuvars use Gounder title. Similarly, most sections of Vokkaligas use titles like Gowda, Gowder etc. When required, media refers the Gounder subsect of the above mentioned communities as Vettuva Gounder, Vanniya Gounder etc but not as just Gounder. Kongu Vellalars don't fall under Vellalars as Vellalars and Kongu Vellalars are classified into different communities. Vellalars use 'Pillai' title and Kongu Vellalars use only 'Gounder' title. Therefore most of the media just mentions the word Gounders to refer Kongu Vellalars.

I knew lot of edit wars happening in the articles related to caste. But that should not deter us from explaining the practical fact in the articles. The word 'Gounder' is different from the word 'Gounder Community'. The former refers to title and the later refers to caste name. I suggest to include every information to make this article clear though this article is only about title.

1. This article should mention that Gounder is a title name. 2. It should clearly list out the communities/castes using this title. 3. It should also specify a word about Gounder community often referred in the media although this article is only about title.

Though article says it refers predominantly to Kongu Vellalars,nothing wrong in having a word about Gounder community. People who are looking for 'Gounder community' can understand that it refers to Kongu Vellalar and they can look into that page for more details. I would like to discuss more and arrive at some consensus before anyone proceeding to make changes to the additions in the article. Guys, please post your opinions. Mahevenki (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Kanatonian is trying to push his POV. I have explained here that every information should be captured. All these are explained with proper references. You need to explain why the changes are removed. If people are trying to change continuously, we can semi-protect the page. Removing the additions cannot be the solution. Mahevenki (talk) 15:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Look Kanatonian, you need to adhere to core content policies of Wikipedia. You are trying to include vague lines without references. What I observed from your past arguments is that you are trying to display only partial information and hiding the rest.

Per WP:NPOV, all significant views must be given without bias. Those should be supported by reliable sources WP:VERIFY. The article should contain everything related to the subject roughly in proportion to relevance, significance and coverage in reliable sources. You should mention whom the media are referring as just 'Gounders'. You cannot skip this by arguing that the article is a title name.

Per WP:SOURCE, the references cited above are from prominent English newspapers like Times of India, The Hindu, The Deccan Herald and famous Tamil dailies like Dinamalar and Dinamani. Monthly magazines like frontline is also used for reference. You are removing these references repeatedly and including vague lines without references.

Don't engage in edit war, without following these.Mahevenki (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary break: third opinion

I've spotted the to-ing and fro-ing here. I've had one prior involvement with this article, way back in June, and that was a minor rephrase while I was skidding around doing the same on quite a few articles. I am prepared to go through the issue here as an outside party. - Sitush (talk) 18:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, you are welcome. I would like you to go through the entire explanations and references given by me. If you have any problems in understanding the Tamil references, we can have Sodabottle as translator. Mahevenki (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's see if it can be done using just the English stuff. If there are still difficulties after that then, yes, I'll need a translator. - Sitush (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've already checked the article as it stands now, using both the cited sources & a general search. What it says it correct, although there appear to be other communities that use the title in addition to those already named. This source sees it as a title used by several castes that were of "more or less the same position in the caste hierarchy ... in much the same way as 'Brahman'.", which might be a useful analogy to include when things settle down.

I'll dig into the "Gounder Community" stuff now but you may not get a response until tomorrow. - Sitush (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, you should go into the Tamil references too, as they establish the fact that only few sections of non-kongu vellalar use gounder title. Non-kongu vellalars use lot of other titles too. These two are important. They prove that not all vettuvars and vanniyars use Gounder title.[30][31] Ask the help of Sodabottle to infer the meaning. On the other hand, the entire section of Kongu Vellalar use only Gounder title. They use no other title. In Tamilnadu, all people belonging to kongu vellalar are called Gounders. That is why, they are referred as gounder community by media. Mahevenki (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Woah, hang on a minute. Are you saying that you do not have a source that actually says Kongu Vellalar only use the Gounder title, but that what you do have is a lot of sources that refer to KVs as the Gounder Community? - Sitush (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Nope. If you want to make sure that Kongu Vellalars use only Gounder title, you can look into this TamilNadu backward classes list[32] Let me make my point crisp and clear. You can take your own time digging into history and social research books about caste and prove that other castes also use Gounder title. I am not trying to say that all Gounders are only Kongu Vellalars. I personally knew, a lot of other communities using Gounder title. All these should be represented here (both majority and minority views). At the same time, we should leave a line or hint about Gounders mentioned widely in news papers and media. Whom they are referring to ? Are they referring to Kongu Vellalar or Vanniyar or Vettuvar ? A person like me reading the articles in news papers and coming here to know about the word Gounder should not be confused. I added one line to clear that confusion. But it appears like caste war here.

Anyway, being dragged into edit war, I will try to support you with as much possible references I can find.To Sodabottle, please kindly note that I don't belong to any caste forum. Don't brand me like that just for editing an article relate to caste Mahevenki (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Disregarding the fact that Docstoc is not a reliable source for the info (the doc is unsealed, unsigned, & maybe even undated), the BC list certainly does mention an awful lot of communities under KV that use the Gounder suffix. But it is not itself evidence that KVs only use the Gounder suffix or, alternatively, that no other group in TN uses that suffix. In fact, Kalveli Gounder is shown at #45 in the BC list, but the KV Gounders are all under #61 - it is clearly the case that not all communities using the Gounder suffix in TN are KVs. Equally, although the list of KVs says "including" & then every item after ends with "Gounder", this itself does not say that KVs only use that suffix.

I can see the problem: as you say, the newspapers are using the "Gounder Community" term and one would hope that they mean something specific by that. But unless they explain what they mean by the term then we are into the realms of original research. It might seem obvious, sure, but we do not have a source to verify it. Unless you know of some? - Sitush (talk) 20:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. This is the reason why I did not include the line "Kongu Vellalars only use Gounder title" in the article. But we have sources which say that only sections of other communities use gounder title. That is why, I included "Some sections of Vettuvars, Vanniyars, etc..". Sitush, you need to go through all references I cited to understand that the media refer Kongu Vellalars as just Gounder Community. They don't say it directly but it can be inferred. Those sources speak about Kongunadu Munnetra Kazhagam or in short KMK or KNMK and they refer Gounders. It is well known that KMK belongs to Kongu Vellalars. You can get to know this fact from this source.[33] Kongunadu Munnetra Kazhagam's earlier name was Kongunadu Munnetra Peravai. So both refer same. From this, we can understand that they the word Gounder they used refers to Kongu Vellalar. It took me some time to understand this and now you are also pushed into the same doubt. This is why, I tried to clarify it in article. Mahevenki (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Please note that other communities will be referred as Vettuva Gounder, Vanniya Gounder etc. whenever it is required to mention Gounder subsect of non-KV.[34]. Not as just Gounders as only few of them have Gounder title in their communities. Mahevenki (talk) 21:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I am slowly picking my way through them & also seeing what else I can turn up. At least now I have clearly got a grasp of the intricacies here - that's always a milestone for caste/community related stuff! - Sitush (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

True. Caste/Community related stuff are really difficult to grasp immediately given the complex nature of Indian society. I can understand that you need more time to fully analyse the issue. Take your own time and I am always there to help you in case you need more references Mahevenki (talk) 22:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, we have agreed to maintain the original content till the discussion is over. An anon 122.164.191.109 have edited the article without any references and you have reverted it partially. Change it back to original content as of Nov13. By the way, any updates from your side ? You can take your own time but make sure to maintain the original content Mahevenki (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

We need to maintain the original version till the dispute is resolved. Anonymous edits and partial reverting will only lead to more confusions. If people continue to edit, I propose to remove all caste names from the article till the dispute is resolved. Mahevenki (talk) 23:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought that I had fully reverted the ip. Anyway, I've read all the English items, in some cases more than once.I can see that the Gounder community phrase is used in the sense of meaning the KV community, but that is only apparent if there is a "hook" in the article to give it some context. Eg: an article talks abour the KMK, you know that KMK = KV, and so when it then says "Gounder community" then the context makes it is obvious that they mean KV. I've not explained that particularly well, but short version: yes, in the examples Gounder community = KV.

The problem is, that is not good enough. You cannot prove that the term is not used to refer to other groups of Gounder than the KV, nor could I find a really clear-cut example among the English language sources: all of them demanded that the reader already knew some background - eg: that KMK = KV party. Sure, you know that but someone born & bred in the UK or USA, Germany or Guatemala, Australia and Austria most probably will not. In that sense, you are engaging in synthesis, and we are not allowed to do that here.

You said that the Tamil sources were important. Are they really going to resolve the issues that I raise? In particular, is even one of them going to explicitly say that the term is used either "always" or "most frequently" to refer to KVs? - Sitush (talk) 16:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, none of them will say, Gounder "always" refers to KVs because there are other communities too that are using the title. But you need to view from another angle. Why other communities (non-Kvs) are not referred as just Gounder Community ? Because, all the sections of Vettuvars, Vanniyars, Vokkaligas don't use Gounder title.[35][36] Only some sections of those communities use the title and hence they cannot be generally referred as Gounder community. This gives the freedom to refer KVs as Gounder community.

"All of them demanded that the reader already knew some background - eg: that KMK = KV party". This is not very difficult. We can attach this reference[37] along with other references to prove that KMK or KMP = KV party. Anyway, if this not enough, here is another reference which says about Gounder community (taken from Deccan Chronicle).[38] Persons belonging to Kongu Vellalar are mentioned as persons from Gounder Community.To prove that, Gounder community mentioned here refers to Kongu Vellalar, I have attached the proof here.[39] which says Sengottaiyan is a Kongu Vellalar. No need to infer from KMP or KMK. This reference will directly establish that Gounder Community mentioned refers to Kongu Vellalar. Mahevenki (talk) 20:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

To show that non-KV communities are not just mentioned as Gounders, here is one more reference.[40]. This source uses the term Vettuva Gounders and not just Gounders Mahevenki (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you are perhaps misunderstanding the original research and synthesis limitations in place here. We cannot infer what a source may mean: we have to reflect what it actually says. And we cannot take bits from source A and bits from source B in order to write statement C, So, for example, just because you think that Vettuvars do not generally use the Gounder title is insufficient to prove that the "Gounder community" term must refer to the KVs, and we cannot combined The Hindu with the Deccan Chronicle to verify a statement that is not in fact made by either of them.

I have no idea if you are correct or not about this in "real life" but sometimes our policies do create odd situations & people can get frustrated when that happens. Unless those policies and guidelines are changed, however, we are stuck with this situation. There has recently been a bit of a discussion about the way we use the phrase "Wikipedia is concerned about verifiability, not truth", but the underlying message remains the same. - Sitush (talk) 23:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay. No pieces from A and B to derive C. This single reference has everything.[41] It has references to Kongu Vellala Gounders, KMK, Gounder community all in one article. So there is no original research or synthesis here.

Per original research, you cannot combine A and B to derive conclusion C. How does this apply to earlier references I gave? One article says, Minister Sengottaiyan is from Gounder community.[42] Another article says Minister Sengottaiyan is from Kongu Vellala Gounder community.[43]. There is nothing to infer or synthesis here. It directly establishes that Kongu Vellalars are called Gounder community.

I never told Vettuvars do not generally use the Gounder title. They do use but not entire section. I never told to include "Gounder community" term must refer to the KVs. Sorry Sitush, still you didn't get my point. My understanding is "Kongu Vellalars are predominantly referred as Gounder Community" by media. Please note that predominantly doesn't mean 100%. You have to understand that in current era, articles about castes are written rarely in TamilNadu media and none of them will directly tell that Gounder Community "always" or "only" refers to Kongu Vellalar as other sections also use the title. I will give you one practical example. This is not exact example but related to some extent. In North America, Asian generally refers to people from East Asia although in theory it refers to all people from Asia Continent. There may be many historical reasons but the primary one is that East Asia Migration to North America was more when compared to other parts of Asia during 19th and 20th centuries. Similarly in TamilNadu, Kongu Vellala Gounders are dominant when compared to other community gounder sub-sects. Also other communities don't use Gounder title completely. Only some sections of these communities use the title. Therefore Kongu Vellalars are predominantly referred as Gounder Community. This is the real life fact here in TamilNadu.

Per WP:VERIFY, so far I have provided references (both direct and indirect) from English dailies like Times of India, The Hindu, Deccan Chronicle, Deccan Herald, Tamil dailies like Dinamalar, Dinamani, Maalaimalar, online tamil dailies like thatstamil, weekly and monthly magazines like frontline. I have almost covered entire section of Indian media. I have showed that Kongu Vellalars are widely covered as Gounder Community in the media. I have explained you why other communities cannot be generally referred as gounders (only few sections use the title). I have also shown you how they are referred in media. So far, no references are produced to counter these. As you are a third party mediator, I request you to modify the existing line,

"In Tamil Nadu, the title predominantly refers to the Kongu Vellalars but it is also used by the Vettuva Gounders, Vanniars and Vokkaligas" into

"In Tamil Nadu, the title predominantly refers to the Kongu Vellalars and they are predominantly referred as Gounder Community.[44][45][46][47][48] Some sections of Vettuvars, Vanniars and Vokkaligas also use the title"[49][50]

I feel this safe and acceptable to everyone. This never mean only Kongu Vellalars are referred as Gounder Community or never mean Vettuvar cannot be called as Gounder Community. Can we summarize and conclude ?Mahevenki (talk) 01:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I do read, you know ;) I understand your point that you are trying to make: "Kongu Vellalars are predominantly referred as Gounder Community" by media." Nonetheless, it seems to be original research. It is possible for someone else to turn up here with a similar number of media reports that mention KVs but do not use the phrase "Gounder community". Or a selection of news reports using the phrase but referring to groups other than the KV. Honestly, you are trying to build your case by synthesis of sources and you cannot do this. Until you come up with some reliable sources that explicitly support your contention by using that phrase or a paraphrase of it, it seems to me that every other argument that you advance is irrelevant. You might get away with "often" instead of "predominantly" - I could have a think about that if you want.

Sources such as the Frontline one that you show - this one - do not in fact support it. In that specific example we have two separate statements:

• "KNMK, a party that was founded in Coimbatore in February 2009 to reflect the aspirations of Vellala Gounders, the predominant community in the region"; and
• "the KNMK candidate polled 19,558 votes, about 9,500 more than the Gounder community's strength in the constituency"

This goes to the heart of what I said previously, ie: the context. It seems to me that most, if not all, reports are initially introducing a specific reference to the KVs and thereafter refer to them as the Gounder community. That is sensible & perfectly normal journalism, and it could just as well be done for a non-KV Gounder group. a sports club, members of a particular branch of a major religion etc. Furthermore, because the sources do seem to adopt that approach, it is actually not terribly important that we mention it here because from your examples it seems to be defined in the media when appropriate.

Why is this issue so important to you? - Sitush (talk) 07:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is this issue so important to you? Majority of Wikipedia editors think that changes to caste articles are only to establish caste supremacy. This is not true in this case. I am fighting for clarity. Wikipedia is for information. Most reports are initially introducing a specific reference to the KVs and thereafter refer to them as the Gounder community - Not true. Most of the articles[51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60] are just mentioning Gounder community. Whom they are referring ? I wasted lot of time in figuring out that these articles refer to Kongu Vellalars. I don't want others to go through same pain and waste time.

Here are the references which explicitly refers Kongu Vellala Gounders as Gounder Community.[61][62] If you don't understand Tamil, here are the footnotes. The first reference says, "In order to give importance to Gounder Community, Kongu Vellala Gounders are given 8 seats". The second reference says, "Kongu Vellala Gounders are angry that Gounder community is being targeted by registering cases against them". We cannot directly copy and paste lines from references into Wikipedia. We need to understand the meaning and frame sentences. There are no spaces for ambiguity or synthesis or original research or synthesis here. Anyone with basic knowledge of English can understand that the Gounder Community mentioned here refers Kongu Vellala Gounders. Per WP:VERIFY, it is direct, explicit and reliable reference. Let non-KVs bring in enough media references which mentions them as just Gounder community and then we can have a discussion about that. You need to speak with reference. You cannot assume that they will bring in future. I am not going to fight for the word 'predominant' like some caste fanatics do. All I need is information and better clarification in the article. For now, as you have opted for the word 'often', we will use 'often' instead of 'predominant' to mention about Gounder Community.Mahevenki (talk) 16:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I have reverted you. Check my edits and you will see that until yesterday the word "predominant" was still in there, you will note an unnecessarily high number of untranslated sources (see WP:NOENG), an incomplete citation for AnSI that also made the mistake of saying that it was ASI (a completely different body) ... and numerous other issues. - Sitush (talk) 10:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Nay, the word was there already. I did not change or modify it. I added only Gounder community line and the often was used in that. We can remove that word if you want. The answer is same for AnSI also. However it is good because you brought in few more castes which use Gounder title. WP:NOENG doesn't say anything against Tamil sources. It is always good to have multiple sources in any article. Your current edits have few concerns. 1.The word Kannadiga is not caste/community rather it refers linguistic grouping. We cannot have that word giving the meaning of community. 2.The diaspora information was maintained by Kanatonian. See the discussion above. We need to have a word with him before removing that. Meanwhile, I do some searches on Gollas and Uralis and bring in more info. Mahevenki (talk) 23:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I was not suggesting that you had deliberately kept the "predominantly" word, merely that it was still there and should not have been as it makes a nonsense of the "often" compromise that we reached. WP:NOENG is not specific to any non-English language, but the non-English sources seem to be superfluous right now & they do not advance things in the context that WP:NOENG tries to resolve. I am unsure about the Kannadiga point but will dig into it - I saw what seemed to be a reasonable source and used it, but I could be wrong. I have already asked Kanatonian for their comments. Feel free to research further - it is all for the greater good. I am spreading myself very thinly at the moment but will try to assist. - Sitush (talk) 00:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Uralys and Gollas do use Gounder title but in the same way as Vettuvars and Vanniars do. Some section of Uralys in in certain districts use Gounder title[63] and some section don't use the title[64]. Gollas are spread over TamilNadu, Andhra and Karnataka. Only certain sections of them in TamilNadu use Gounder title but those in Andhra don't use the title.[65][66][67]. I will modify the article accordingly. Mahevenki (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I am tired, unwell and about to hit my morphine for the night. I'm not going to go through your links noted above right now, but feel free to be bold. Of all the points that you raised, the Kannadiga one is the thing that I am most concerned about - I am pretty sure that the rest are at least reasonably stated, although there is always room to quibble about the detail! I'll check out what ever it is that you do when I surface, and I thank you wholeheartedly for appreciating that we do have a common purpose here. Good stuff. - Sitush (talk) 01:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Sitush. I have added the translations too. We will skip the word Kannadiga for now. We can add it later after clearing the doubts. The article looks better now. Mahevenki (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Kongu Vellalar gounder vs Vettuvar

Please can someone explain why a couple of anons keep changing "Kongu Vellalar" for "Vettuvar", despite what the sources say? Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 08:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

This issue is still arising. I acknowledge that various news sources have been cited but I am no wiser regarding why the changes are being made. Are we attempting to distinguish the Kongu Vellalar from the Vettuvar? Does it actually apply to both? Is there indeed any difference or are these terms synonymous and (perhaps) influenced by the ongoing processes of sanskritisation and general jostling for reinvention of tradition? It isn't helped that some sources are not written in English but what really concerns me - having had much experience of this type of situation on Wikipedia - is that we might be failing to abide by WP:NPOV or perhaps even giving undue weight to WP:FRINGE views. I would much rather see academic sources because news media is notoriously poor for this type of thing. - Sitush (talk) 00:01, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

In indian community ledger kongu vellalar Gounder.But did not have Gounder title for "Vettuvagounder".And they kongu vellalar Gounder are the real gounder of tamil nadu. There was history for vellalar in ancient historical poems. So vellalar's are always called kudiyanavan which means stay in one place and do agriculture Gobugounder (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

In indian community ledger kongu vellalar have Gounder title. But "Vettuvagounder" having tittle Gounder. So they are the real gounder of tamil nadu. There was history for vellalar in ancient historical poems. So vellalar's are always called as "kudiyanavan" only. Which means stay in one place and do agriculture. The evidence is still in british goverment ledger. Gobugounder (talk) 02:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

vettuva gounders also mostly refer as vettuva in kondu nadu then why the kongu vellalars does'nt accept that?? 

Goundermaganprem (talk) 05:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The title of "Gounder" is only suitable to the kongu vellala gounders, Because they are the people only teach the agriculture to others, And they have also protect the people from enemies for that reason also they called as vettuva "gounder".

Yes.. The only group of people who holds the name Gounder in gazette is Vettuva Gounder.. So change that first.. If you need any reference please see the gazette.. Manoj Kumar Nanjappa Gounder (talk) 11:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC) . . .

Kongu Vellala Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vettuvar community has creating fake history about kongu vellalar gounder In community certificate Kongu vellalar contains 24 sub castes(kongu vellala gounder, kongu naatu gounder, padathalai gounder, chenthalai gounder, Pala vellalar, kurumba gounder) as they were the native people of kongu Nadu. And the vettuva does not have kongu title only native people kongu vellala gounder only having and in community certificate vettuva Gounder(vettuvas,vedan,vettaikaran).The kongu vellalars are the #Mudhalgounder ,#Mulugounder The name vellalar means teaching doing agriculture and they teach agriculture . Kongu vellala gounder created the kongu Nadu by their hard work. as the vettuva means hunters in mountains as their job was hunting and how they do agriculture vellalar only teaches agriculture to vettuvas and the other castes.vettuvas have angered as the Konguvellalargounder are more powerful than vettuva as the Konguvellalargounder are ruling and they become powerful as vettuva creates fake history about kongu vellalar gounder. kongu vellala gounder was ruled by kongugounder as edapadi palanisamy, sengottaiyan,thingamani,velumani, vijayabaskar as kongu vellala gounder are the rulling parties.kongu Selithal Engum Selikum, vaalka Dheeranchinnamalaigounder,kalingrayagounder,ponnar shankar,thuppakigounder" KonguKaralar (talk) 01:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Kongu Vellala Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vettuvar community has creating fake history about kongu vellalar gounder In community certificate Kongu vellalar contains 24 sub castes(kongu vellala gounder, kongu naatu gounder, padathalai gounder, chenthalai gounder, Pala vellalar, kurumba gounder) as they were the native people of kongu Nadu. And the vettuva does not have kongu title only native people kongu vellala gounder only having and in community certificate vettuva Gounder(vettuvas,vedan,vettaikaran).The kongu vellalars are the #Mudhalgounder ,#Mulugounder The name vellalar means teaching doing agriculture and they teach agriculture . Kongu vellala gounder created the kongu Nadu by their hard work. as the vettuva means hunters in mountains as their job was hunting and how they do agriculture vellalar only teaches agriculture to vettuvas and the other castes.vettuvas have angered as the Konguvellalargounder are more powerful than vettuva as the Konguvellalargounder are ruling and they become powerful as vettuva creates fake history about kongu vellalar gounder. kongu vellala gounder was ruled by kongugounder as edapadi palanisamy, sengottaiyan,thingamani,velumani, vijayabaskar as kongu vellala gounder are the rulling parties.kongu Selithal Engum Selikum, vaalka Dheeranchinnamalaigounder,kalingrayagounder,ponnar shankar,thuppakigounder KonguKaralar (talk) 01:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding new changes

What happened Sitush ? Did you find something interesting ? As we had discussed earlier, this is a sensitive topic. If you feel to include something new, discuss it here. As per our agreement, I am retaining the original as of 3 Dec 2011. Please post your opinion Mahevenki (talk) 01:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear Sitush & Mahavenki, Please refer tamilnadu government website on the castes and it speaks volume of claims and disclaimers.

Please check the http://www.tn.gov.in/departments/bclist.htm. In the list caste 61, you can check. It talks about " Kongu Vellalars " government does not even recognised the collective name with Gounder post fixed as we are discussing such a long page.

Please also see other caste Vettuvagounder list 40 http://www.tn.gov.in/departments/mbclist.htm , there is no ambiguity in the list .

We request you to make it as neutral as possible. mohanv (talk) 09:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

We? - Sitush (talk) 09:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Kongu Vellala Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vettuvar community has creating fake history about kongu vellalar gounder In community certificate Kongu vellalar contains 24 sub castes(kongu vellala gounder, kongu naatu gounder, padathalai gounder, chenthalai gounder, Pala vellalar, kurumba gounder) as they were the native people of kongu Nadu. And the vettuva does not have kongu title only native people kongu vellala gounder only having and in community certificate vettuva Gounder(vettuvas,vedan,vettaikaran).The kongu vellalars are the #Mudhalgounder ,#Mulugounder The name vellalar means teaching doing agriculture and they teach agriculture . Kongu vellala gounder created the kongu Nadu by their hard work. as the vettuva means hunters in mountains as their job was hunting and how they do agriculture vellalar only teaches agriculture to vettuvas and the other castes.vettuvas have angered as the Konguvellalargounder are more powerful than vettuva as the Konguvellalargounder are ruling and they become powerful as vettuva creates fake history about kongu vellalar gounder. kongu vellala gounder was ruled by kongugounder as edapadi palanisamy, sengottaiyan,thingamani,velumani, vijayabaskar as kongu vellala gounder are the rulling parties.kongu Selithal Engum Selikum, vaalka Dheeranchinnamalaigounder,kalingrayagounder,ponnar shankar,thuppakigounder" KonguKaralar (talk) 01:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Summary

The word Gounder is a title name used by different communities in TamilNadu, Karnataka and by some in Tamil diaspora. In Tamilnadu, among the communities using Gounder tiltle, references are provided here to show that only some sections of Vanniyars, Vettuvars and Vokkaligas use Gounder title. As per the discussion with third party, it is understood that Kongu Vellalars are often mentioned in media as just Gounder Community.Mahevenki (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Vettuva Gounders also mostly use this gounder title

Why you did'nt accept the Vettuva gounders are also mostly used Gounder title.Why you put simply vettuvars?.In TN gazette the name is Vettuva Gounder.Then why you change it as Vettuvars??so please change it to Vettuva Gounders also mostly use this gounder title.Otherwise give me a solid reason for that change. See this — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kongarmaganprem (talk • contribs) 07:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

References

In TN gazette there is no word as Gounder for Kongu Vellalar

In TN gazette there is only as Kongu Vellalars but this article says the Kongu Vellalars are mostly uses the Gounder title how can you say like this??Please check this reference there is no word as Gounder.Only Kongu VellalarKongu Vellalar community certificate also does'nt have a word as Gounder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kongarmaganprem (talk • contribs) 07:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

References

pooluva vettuva gounders cant merge with vellalars . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.97.184.167 (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC) Kongu Vellala Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vettuvar community has creating fake history about kongu vellalar gounder In community certificate Kongu vellalar contains 24 sub castes(kongu vellala gounder, kongu naatu gounder, padathalai gounder, chenthalai gounder, Pala vellalar, kurumba gounder) as they were the native people of kongu Nadu. And the vettuva does not have kongu title only native people kongu vellala gounder only having and in community certificate vettuva Gounder(vettuvas,vedan,vettaikaran).The kongu vellalars are the #Mudhalgounder ,#Mulugounder The name vellalar means teaching doing agriculture and they teach agriculture . Kongu vellala gounder created the kongu Nadu by their hard work. as the vettuva means hunters in mountains as their job was hunting and how they do agriculture vellalar only teaches agriculture to vettuvas and the other castes.vettuvas have angered as the Konguvellalargounder are more powerful than vettuva as the Konguvellalargounder are ruling and they become powerful as vettuva creates fake history about kongu vellalar gounder. kongu vellala gounder was ruled by kongugounder as edapadi palanisamy, sengottaiyan,thingamani,velumani, vijayabaskar as kongu vellala gounder are the rulling parties.kongu Selithal Engum Selikum, vaalka Dheeranchinnamalaigounder,kalingrayagounder,ponnar shankar,thuppakigounder

Kongu vellala gounder as kambar gave their name as karalas which means ruling the world and waters for doing agriculture. (talk • contribs) 06:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding title usage

Vettuva Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vellalar community has creating fake history about Vettuva gounder. They have stolen all the traditional things and worships from Vettuva Gounder. And the Vellalar does not have Gounder title. Vettuva Gounders are called as 'Muthalgoundan Mulu Goundan'. . The Title Gounder was initially holded by Vettuva Gounder from the olden BC days. In tamil they were called as “Muthal Gounden , Mulu Gounden” their main work is ruling the lands and hunting in forests. As we can see from the gazette, nobody can hold the title GOUNDER in their gazette unless a Vettuva Gounder. So nowadays in the modern period as of fact , Gounder is a title mainly used for a Vettuva Gounder and for a Vellalars. They are common in their Kulams and Koottams, everyone knows that. That separation between the Vellala and Vettuva Gounders in that period is mainly for the welfare of a single person who wanted to be a head of the communities so the separated for themselves. If both the communities will be strong only then they can save the name “GOUNDER”. And it will be a strongest community.

Kongu Vellalar is their name in Gazette name and Vettuva Gounder is the name in Gazette. Dont make some false statements. The real Gounder holds the name even in Gazette. One and only Gounders are Vettuva Gounders (Please check with the Gazette) Vellalars are only noted as Kongu Vellalars (please refer gazette)

As the days passed remain people can only add the title in their way of speaking but not in the record (Gazette). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manoj Kumar Nanjappa Gounder (talk • contribs) 19:54, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@Manoj Kumar Nanjappa Gounder:, I agree with you... why don't you add these observations in article main space and help improve the article? --Adamstraw99 (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

The article contains many POVs regarding the title usage such as ".....is primarily used by the Kongu Vellalar, who are, ritually a high caste involved in agriculture and mercantile activities". It also lack references. The article says primarily about Kongu Vellalars, Vanniyars and other castes which use Gounder title are neglected. This article needs to be re-written--Sureshmaran (talk) 10:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The article editing people conspicuously removing a larger Gounder community called Vettuva gounder community. It is beyond ethical needs wiki's intervention restoring the facts. We added again.mohanv (talk) 09:52, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

கொங்கு நாட்டுச் சமுதாய வரலாற்றில் வேட்டுவர் முக்கியமானதோர் இடத்தை வகிக்கின்றனர். இவர்கள் வேட்டையாடுதலை தமது முதன்மைத் தொழிலாகக்கொண்டிருந்தனர்.வேடன்,வெற்பன்,சிலம்பன்,எயினன், ஊரான், வேட்டுவதியரையன்,ஊராளி,நாடாழ்வான், முதலான பெயர்களாலும் அழைக்கப்பட்டனர். வரலாற்று காலத்திற்கு முற்பட்ட காலத்திலிருந்தே இவர்கள் கொங்கு நாட்டில் வாழ்ந்து வந்தனர் என்பதனைச் சங்க இலக்கியங்களால் அறிகிறோம். — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.199.144.14 (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2015 (UTC) may be only who lived in a particular region of Tamil Nadu were using title gounder for example present Namakkal,Salem,coimbatore,thirupur,erode,thiruchengode,karur were the only places gounder lives but in case of vanniyar ,vettuvar are also living in other places of Tamil Nadu who are not titled as gounder. But kongu vellala gounders are living only in the kongu desam .kongu vellala gounders may be the descents of mudhal kudi but if we start from the beginning every Tamil people were from same origin.whether gounder is name of caste or it is the title ? in my view it is not a name specifically given to caste because many of the caste use the word gounder . iam pretty sure it must be the title used for the castes who were living the specific place called kongu desam . as some one said in this page gounder is the title for land ruler,owner . kongu vellala gounders were owning most of the places and in tamil nadu kongu vellala gounders are only said to be gounders. kongu vellalars are not shatriyas because their main occupation is agriculture .but some of the kongu vellalars were also became shatriyas when needed like dheeran chinnamalai. every kongu vellalars are capable of becoming shatriyas because they are fit in both mental and physical .they survived centuries or rules even in the british and nayaks because they are agriculturers .we were divided by occupation . some went sucessful but some went down . i did not mention any thing offending other castes .because caste is the main problem in present kongu desam . i am not ommitting information about other gounder community i am just specifying about konguvellala gounders. proud to be a gounder:

Kongu Vellala Gounder are the Gounders of Kongu Nadu. Vettuvar community has creating fake history about kongu vellalar gounder In community certificate Kongu vellalar contains 24 sub castes(kongu vellala gounder, kongu naatu gounder, padathalai gounder, chenthalai gounder, Pala vellalar, kurumba gounder) as they were the native people of kongu Nadu. And the vettuva does not have kongu title only native people kongu vellala gounder only having and in community certificate vettuva Gounder(vettuvas,vedan,vettaikaran).The kongu vellalars are the #Mudhalgounder ,#Mulugounder The name vellalar means teaching doing agriculture and they teach agriculture . Kongu vellala gounder created the kongu Nadu by their hard work. as the vettuva means hunters in mountains as their job was hunting and how they do agriculture vellalar only teaches agriculture to vettuvas and the other castes.vettuvas have angered as the Konguvellalargounder are more powerful than vettuva as the Konguvellalargounder are ruling and they become powerful as vettuva creates fake history about kongu vellalar gounder. kongu vellala gounder was ruled by kongugounder as edapadi palanisamy, sengottaiyan,thingamani,velumani, vijayabaskar as kongu vellala gounder are the rulling parties.kongu Selithal Engum Selikum, vaalka Dheeranchinnamalaigounder,kalingrayagounder,ponnar shankar,thuppakigounder KonguKaralar (talk) 01:58, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you guys go and refer the Gazette clearly and understand who owns the title as ‘Gounder’. Manoj Kumar Nanjappa Gounder (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Someone has recently proposed a merge of this article into the Gounder article. Please note that there is also Vettuvar. - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

The proposal was made by AntanO - see here. - Sitush (talk) 11:17, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Please note also that virtually all of the recent edits in sections above were the work of sockpuppets. - Sitush (talk) 11:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Now a days vettuvar is totally different from vettuva gounder community. Please understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobugounder (talk • contribs) 03:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

we do not accept this how you can say only vettuvars are gounders kongu vellalars also gounders remove this merge proposal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.102.173 (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

i am suggesting kongu vellalar need to merge in this article.All kings karikalan,sadayappa vallal,kalingarayar are kongu vellala gounders.Valvil ory only the king from vettuvars.And thalaiyur kali is beated by kongu vellala gounders.valvil ory also killed.began most famous king he is kongu vellala gounder.

Please will the various anonymous posters above provide some reliable sources to support their claims. - Sitush (talk) 05:27, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

How you will said vettuvars are only gounder provide the proof.Search iin wikipedia that says vokkaliga gowda and kongu vellala gounders are from Ganga Clans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.70.81 (talk) 08:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Im Suggesting you to remove the Vettuvars merge proposal.Vettuva gounders are located in nammakal and other districts of kongu nadu.Kongu naadu gounders are called Kongu Vellala Gounders.Kongu that defines only the kongu vellalars are gounders in Kongu Nadu.But vettuva gounders does not have a title called kongu.Gowda and KOngu vellalars are same head the village Gounder means head of the village or state Kongu nadu head gounder kongu vellala gounder.In Tamilnadu caste list in kongu velalar there are so many types Kongu Vellala Gounder,Poosari gounder and etc.Dheeran Chinnamalai is kongu vellala gounder.Consider this and remove the merge proposal.I am suggesting you to merge this article into Kongu Vellalar Page.117.213.70.81 (talk) 09:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettuva_Gounder
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongu_Nadu
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongu_Vellalar
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dheeran_Chinnamalai
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowda
• http://www.tnpsc.gov.in/communities-list.html#bc

Without proof how you will made the merge proposal.117.213.70.81 (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

We cannot use Wikipedia articles as sources - please see WP:CIRCULAR. - Sitush (talk) 10:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

External proofs for kongu vellalars are only gounders in kongu nadu.Consider this and remove the merge proposal and i want to merge this article into kongu vellalar117.213.65.57 (talk) 14:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I attached so many external proofs but there is no reply from admin so i will remove the merge proposal.117.206.107.175 (talk) 09:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Someone again add the merge proposal without proper reason so i will remove the merge proposal.117.213.71.248 (talk) 11:16, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Vanniyar

How can Sitush say that tamil nadu government's website is not reliable and he is saying that saying that Indian Census Report as British Raj Sources, do you have any proof for that ? link -> https://books.google.co.in/books?id=g_kcAQAAMAAJ&dq=1961+census+report+gounder&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=+gounder link -> https://books.google.co.in/books?id=9XLiAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=vanniyar+gounder

and I need to mention that there is not even a single reference for uralis,vokkaligas, gollas. But you were allowing them without any reference. Aswell you always reverting when someone added Vanniyar even with proper sources, I don't Know what your intention is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clueditor (talk • contribs) 06:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the references provided for these other clans are in Tamil. I've tagged them, perhaps some Tamil reading editor can check what the cited works actually say. --regentspark (comment) 17:18, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2016

"Kongu Vellalar" should be hyper-linked with [[ ]] - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongu_Vellalar Hythlodaeus (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing that out. - Sitush (talk) 14:04, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Kurumba Gounder

Someone recently added Kurumba Gounder to this article. Alas, that article has no sources that actually verify the name exists and is subject to a merge discussion. I've done another quick Google search and there seems to be nothing out there except matrimonial websites, mirrors, books by Gyan Publishing (which are mostly effectively mirrors) etc. There is a distinct possibility that the community does not even exist under that name, except in the eyes of a few people who wish to make claim to it. - Sitush (talk) 23:25, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Kongu Vellalar vs Vettuvar

KonguKaralar 17 EDITS KonguKaralar (talk) 01:47, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

முதன் முதலில் கவுண்டர் கல்வெட்டு கிடைக்கப்பெற்றது.கிபி ஒன்பதாம் நூற்றாண்டில்.மணியகுல காமிண்டன். இது வேட்டுவருக்கே உரியது.

வேளாளர் கொங்கு நாட்டில் கிபி பத்தாம் நூற்றாண்டின் பிற்பகுதியில் தான் வந்தேறினர்.

கொங்கன் (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)