Talk:Gjirokastër

Demographics

The article was improved in the domographic section according to the lastest census held in Albania. The previous paragraph it was merged to a new article Demographic history of Gjirokastër County, as it does not concern only Gjirokastër Town or Gjirokaster Municipality, to which this article is subbject. (Bes-ART (talk) 12:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC))

The results of 2011 census are widely questioned due to irregularities in the procedure and wide-scale boycott.Alexikoua (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

not true. If u have sources for your change, I will be happy to see them, if not, dont change the demographic section (Bes-ART (talk))

The current version is fully cited. You are free to check them. However, in case you have specific objections about some data I'm happy to provide explanations.Alexikoua (talk) 15:42, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Fully citet of what? Greek sources that are most historic souces? How could be that more reliable source than official census taken from official government website which is specializing to do that job. Anyway can I ask for a second IMPARTIAL opinion? (Bes-ART (talk) 15:53, 10 February 2018 (UTC)).

I am sorry but the international institutions such as the European Parliament, and organizations such as the European Union, to which Albania aspires to join, as well as the Human Rights organizations both in Albania and abroad, have found the 2011 census to be problematic and not fair. That the census was official, does not make it automatically reliable and fair. If you are interested to read more about this, there is already a note about it in the Population article. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 16:00, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

This is wikipedia not EU Parliament where Greece it is member and Albania not. However, problematic does not mean invalid. Soo I will wait for a 3rd impartial oppinion (not greek if it is possible). (Bes-ART (talk) 16:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)).

Arrogance isn't getting you anywhere. I am impartial to this and like the other editor above told you: you do not have any consensus for the changes you have attempted to pass. It is in your best interests to seek some consensus beforehand with your fellow editors and not look on their ethnicity as this is not how Wikipedia works. Furthermore, Wikipedia's rules are quite clear in that Wikipedia does not take the officialty of information as validity of information. If that was the case here, then many articles could be in need for a severe re-writting to meet the propaganda of the governments. Please refrain from further disruptions on the article, as it is subject to WP:ARBMAC which risks you being sanctioned. I don't think you can achieve that consensus by being arrogant and not explaining why do you want to emphasize on a census that wasn't conducted in line with the international standards. I shall remind you that Albania is one of the European Parliament's member countries. To claim that Albania isn't member, shows ignorance. You can see the signatory states and members of the parliament here: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe#Members -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 16:27, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but I dont think im being arrogant. I just want a 3rd opinion about the changes which were made and there is no chances for you two to be impartial on this disscusion. Every city in the world its based of cesuses sources... see London, New York, Boston and so on. A book written by someone can not be more reliable than a official census. Anyway, like I said better wait for the opinion (Bes-ART (talk))

The specific section was mainly edited by an Albanian editor and I wouldn't accuse him for pro-Greek rhetoric. I also noticed that so much detail about the wider Gjirokaster County isn't appropriate for this article, not to mention that this is based on disputed data.Alexikoua (talk) 16:59, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The current section also speaks of the Gjirokastër District (which has been abolished as an administrative division since 2000). The administrative division of Albanian is done in two levels: 1) Qark (eng: County) and 2) Bashki (eng: Municipality). It has been mentioned by me in more than one case that some of the statistics are made at the county level because it is the method the Institute of Statistics uses. (Bes-ART (talk))

I believe this is a good argument to move district level data to the correspondent article. Off course County level data are not representative for the demographic picture of the city.Alexikoua (talk) 17:18, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The only part that is written in the county level is the part of ethnicity and religion. It is because the Municipality of Gjirokastra can be considered as the capital of the county, soo the data would have more meaningful if they are published here, because in the entire region is more or less the same demographic situation. It is also mentioned that the Municipality of Dropull has an absolute Greek majority, and the same should be done with the Municipality of Finiq in Vlorë County... because this entitles Albanian minority law. Up to a moment of holding a more accurate census (it is said that it will be held after 2 or 3 years) this is the most acceptable census. I also want to point out that every census has criticism for details that have not been done in the right manner, but it can not in any case be considered invalid or manipulated (Bes-ART (talk))

The 2011 census has been heavily criticized by the Council of Europe, among other [1]. I suggest you drop this, you won't get anywhere. Khirurg (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

You can write a Note at the end of the article that accompanies the reference you are referring to. On the other hand, no International Tribunal has stated that this census is null and invalid. The European Commission only makes reports, as it does in post-electoral cases, and does not impose on anyone the inevitability of elections, referendums or censuses (as in this case). We are talking about Albania being a free country, despite internal problems... we are not talking about Syria or Iraq that are in civil war (Bes-ART (talk))

County data are not representative for city demographics, even if we believe that those data are accurate.Alexikoua (talk) 20:02, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I find it very strange how official data from the Albanian Institute of Statistics is not accepted but greek sources by authors who have taken no part in conducting a population census is accepted???!!! This is quite bizarre. It provides the reader false and biassed information. Kj1595 (talk) 20:54, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@Bes-ART:, i know where your coming from. Personally i think the government census ought to be cited. But as some editors expressed concerns i then added sources (like Greek ones) that point out Gjirokaster's historic Muslim Albanian population and current day Albanian majority population. The Orthodox Greek speaking population of the Dropull valley has dropped due to migration in Greece. Whether or not content about Dropull should be in this article should be discussed. Albania split the Greek speaking area from Gjirokaster municipality into a separate territorial administrative unit called Dropull some years ago now. If anything to have data on Dropull here now no longer makes sense and should be transferred to the Dropull article.Resnjari (talk) 22:14, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

While on the one hand I agree that the criticism of this census is important to note with regards to ethnic and religious demographics, a lot of the material that is getting deleted [[2]] is actually about stuff that is potentially useful to readers and not to my knowledge controversial, such as age and gender distributions. Surely, a reasonable solution is to have the census data, and note the criticisms of it, right? That way, readers are best informed to come to their own conclusions. Cheers all,--Calthinus (talk) 22:11, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@Calthinus: Agree. This is usually the approach that should be taken - The readers should be informed that the information of the 2011 Census but have them know that the data is dubious. Official =/= reliable. Editors should be aware that the numbers given by the official census may not reflect the reality. Wikipedia's role isn't to promote government positions, is to highlight the facts about the census and reflect on the international community's position on the matter. Period.

@Kj1595: that a data is official, does not make Wikipedia obliged to accept it blindly. State institutions may be subject to political pressure, especially in countries with poor records of separation of powers and institutional independence, as is the case with many former communist countries. Wikipedia has long had a policy of citing the differing views, if there are any. This means both official and non-official data regarding various matters, especially when there are serious reports of misconduct or violations in that Census. You may not believe it, but this is how things work here.-- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 22:20, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Okay, cool, so are SilentResident and Bes-ART willing to agree to the idea that we keep the census data that Bes-ART added, but include also the criticisms of it with regards to ethnic and religious results? With regard to the charts, this can be done perhaps with a statement at the bottom of it. By the way however Bes-ART, although you wrote that municipality info was "unavailable" you can actually find it here [[3]] , in case you ever want it:). Personally I'm a big fan of pop-stat mashke and use it for everything. --Calthinus (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The structure and composition of the Demographics section was agreed upon after painstaking discussion between myself, Alexikoua, and Resnjari and is just fine the way it is. I see absolutely no reason to change it, especially on the whims of a user who has absolutely no understanding of wikipedia policy and rants about "International Tribunals" and other such nonsense. The census has been deliberately falsified and this is well known and sourced. I don't think it should be used at all. Khirurg (talk) 22:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@Calthinus: Agree. I was the first to propose to put a note that indicates that the Census had criticism. And then it can be reinforced with references from the EU Parliament, Human Rights and so on. (Bes-ART (talk) 22:37, 10 February 2018 (UTC))

@Calthinus: I am sorry but I am not a party to the dispute, just been highlighting to Bes-ART why 1) it is wrong to make changes without seeking consensus. The article already has a consensus reached between Alexikoua, Resnjari and Khirurg. And 2) Information may not always be valid just because it was published by a state institution. That the state institutions in the Balkans are not fully independent of any political pressure, nor are reliable, is a fact and there has been discussion about it in several talk pages across Wikipedia, from Serbian articles, to Turkish and even Macedonia articles. The most recent example was MANU, a state institution in the Republic of Macedonia, whose the publications are questioned despite it being a state institution. I think Resnjari in fact was present in that discussion where MANU's example was mentioned.

I have no problem with mentioning the 2011 Census but with the necessary clarifications that it is dubious and disputed by the international community, but that there needs to be a consensus before such a change is made, if it has to be. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 22:39, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@SilentResident: of course -- I agree this is a problem not just for Albania and as you know I'm a major critic of the conduct of the 2011 census. But Bes-ART added to the article -- including many non-controversial things, like the age and gender demographics. Why were age and gender demographics removed? I dont' see any consensus for that, and I think they are quite useful for readers. Regarding the charts, personally I don't really care if they're in the article. What do you think of Bes-ART's proposal above, to insert a note on the charts he made regarding ethnicity and religion? --Calthinus (talk) 22:45, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@Calthinus: I am not willing to go into more lenghty debates with Resnjari, Alexikoua and Khirurg again, you saw what happened last time I tried to reason in the previous dispute. If you can, you better ask them, not me. They made the consensus after all, and I wasn't part of it, for my own reasons. Let me repeat myself (although I HATE repeating myself) what I told Bes-ART above: I am impartial to this and [...] you do not have any consensus for the changes you have attempted to pass. It is in your best interests to seek some consensus beforehand with your fellow editors [...]. -- ❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 23:00, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay fair enough (sorry for the pings and making you repeat yourself I guess if you didnt' want to be involved :( ) -- are Resnjari, Khirurg and Alexikoua willing to accept the idea of reinstating gender, age, ethnicity and religion census info, with the data corrected so that is for the city not the county as per ps-mashke, and notes of qualification about the criticisms on the latter two, as Bes-ART suggested? --Calthinus (talk) 23:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually data about the county are not representative for the demographic situation of the city, this becomes even more dubious when the quality of this data is poor. I have serious objections about district and municipality level data too. I believe the district data should be moved to the correspondent article.Alexikoua (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Ethnicity and religion definitely not, age and non-controversial stuff ok. Khirurg (talk) 00:03, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

As the Republic of Macedonia's census is raised here, it was accepted as fact by all sides and only fringe nationalist elements have challenged it. Their views don't apply. I have used that census data on multiple articles on English wiki and other wikis. As for data of the city, i would like remind editors in here that Greek sources, note Gjirokaster's majority Albanian population (mainly Muslim). I don't see what in doubt here. The Albanian census ought to be cited for its data relating to Gjirokaster.Resnjari (talk) 00:23, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

The Albanian census has been falsified when it comes to ethnicity, language, and religion, and you know it. There is simply no way we are going to use it, here or anywhere. Khirurg (talk) 01:33, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, so everyone that declared as Albanians must not be Albanians. Heard that line all before. In Greece, ethnic Turks are not allowed to declare as Turks but are lumped into some generic category of Muslims or some Orthodox Macedonian speakers who want to don't get the chance to declare as they so wish. And yet may will stand by the Greek census and that it has some EU stamp of approval. Please. With Gjirokaster, its Albanian majority is noted outside census results, and also its large Muslim population.Resnjari (talk) 01:39, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Aaaaaaand here we go again with the straw men and red herrings about the Greek census. Conversation over. Also a good reminder that deals made with you are worthless, as you seem to reneg on them whenever some newbie appears. Khirurg (talk) 02:37, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Khirug:, i refer to the Greek census because the Macedonian census was cited an an example of comparisons etc with the Albanian of problems. You can feel its a strawman issue. Anyway, as for "deals" (meaning in this context ????) etc or newbies what does that have to do with what where discussing here?Resnjari (talk) 02:47, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Here is what we can do in the good faith. In the city Demographic Section (Town + Municipality) we can only use non-contested data, which include total population, age distribution, housing division, and so on. While ethnic division, mother tongue and religious belief can be merget to the Gjirokastër County, accompanied by a Note at the end of the article. On the other hand, the current section may be merged to the former Gjirokastër District, which will also be accompanied by a note stating that the study was made by a Greek author. In this article we can only use non-contested data and we can only mention the fact that Albanians constitute ethnic majority followed by Greek ethnicity with a substantial number, BUT without using numbers or percentages. The compilation of the data will include the town of Gjirokastër in the table and another table for the whole Municipality (including its Administrative Units). This example can be followed with all other contested Counties and Municipalities that are in the same situation as the City in question... We can mention Saranda, Finiq, Himara, Përmet, Dropull, and so rarely. This can be done until the moment of a future census that is not contested by the EU, Human Rights and You. We can also ask for "semi-protected status" for these articles.(Bes-ART (talk) 12:56, 11 February 2018 (UTC))

Exactly: non-contested data have no place as you stated. If you have any objection with the current version I suggest to ask Resnjari (who wrote the current version) why he added detailed numbers about the district. Though various Albanian editors expressed that Resnjari has a certain decree of anti-Albanian bias but I personally disagree with that.Alexikoua (talk) 16:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

My good friend Resnjari is a hipster and thus everybody disagrees with him and he gets accused of being anti-Albanian by Albanians while Greeks/Serbs somehow at the same time think he is an anti-Greek anti-Serb Alb nationalist, all at the same time (still waiting for anti-Turk accusations tho). But hey, wiki often desperately needs "hipsters" and alternative views.

Anyhow, it's good that you guys are getting along now, since everyone seems to agree that we can move the stuff about the district to the district page and keep this one about the city, there's another issue I'd like to bring to your attention-- the current version uses the district demographics. Here are the correct, city demographics as per the census:

Ethnicity (from here [4]) : Albanians 76.02% Greeks 6.05% Roma 0.45% Vlachs 0.40% "Egyptians" 0.05% (of course all three/four minorities may be underrepresented)
Religion (from here [5]) : Muslim 39.22% Catholic 3.24% Orthodox 15.23% Bektashi 3.08%, rest is mostly undeclared~irreligious and maybe a tiny sliver of Protestants. 
Criticism of the census: Council of Europe, for more see Religion_in_Albania#Reactions_to_the_2011_Census

As for Kallivretakis sadly in my version he didnt' give the exact demographics of the city it seems. --Calthinus (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

It appears there is a c. 17% of non-declared ethnicity which makes it the second group in the city.Alexikoua (talk) 18:19, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

But we know for a fact that the census results were doctored. We don't know how badly they were doctored, so it's impossible to estimate how undercounted the minorities are. We should not publish data that know is false. Khirurg (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I've not yet come across a source saying the census was "doctored". Instead I've just seen a bunch criticizing tons of different flaws it had (non-contact, boycotts, bad conduct by census workers, etc). I'm sure more will come out in the future because of how bizarre the results are, but we don't know it's doctored. Even if inaccurate, the results are notable because they are what are used by governments such as Albania's and the EU's for making decisions. At least we'll have another, hopefully better, one in three years. And I support keeping the Greek claim of 34% for contrast, of course.--Calthinus (talk) 19:29, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually we don't know how undercounted Muslims are (seriously this number: 39.22% !). However that's what the census showed. Not all people declared their religion, some might not have a religious identity (more so of those with Muslim heritage due to the bad rap it gets in Albania these days) and others feel its a really private matter. The same goes with ethnicity. There is an assumption for ethnicity in Albania that all those who did not declare a ethnicity in 2011 are somehow by default non-Albanians. They but omit however that during the census process there were strong views aired in society that those Albanians who made any sort of declaration were not "patriotic" as it is a private affair etc. Hence areas like Kurvelesh etc or parts of Diber had large non-declarations, areas that are not known for having minorities. My point is its still a government census, it ought to be in the article. Anyway Gjirokaster has been noted as having an Albanian majority and a large Muslim population. That part is fact, even if some don't like it.Resnjari (talk) 23:06, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

@Calthinus: Oh come on. The census contradicts all other sources on the matter. On the question of religion, for example, there is universal agreement on the Muslim/Orthodox/Catholic ration being somewhere around 70/20/10, yet here we have this census that tells us 6% Orthodox. Give me a break. The government threatened with a fine anyone who gave the "Wrong" answer on questions of ethnicity, religion, and language. It was boycotted by the minorities. What kind of a census is that? It's bunk, period. Khirurg (talk) 23:11, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Anyway Gjirokaster has been noted as having an Orthodox majority and a large Greek population. That part is fact, even if some don't like it. Khirurg (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the data is useless since all parts can claim that the non-declared percentage belongs to their own group. There is also an interesting statement found in a paper by the Kosovar Institute for Policy Research and Development: The Advisory Committee on the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities also “considers that the results of the census should be viewed with the utmost caution and calls on the authorities not to rely exclusively on the data on nationality collected during the census in determining its policy on the protection of national minorities.”Alexikoua (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to break it to you folks, but in 19th century Gjirokaster there were only a few Greek speaking families (Kokolakkis [6] p.52. "β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε... και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας."). Greek statistics (from a Greek point of view) that Greece used (compiled by its own army that it used at the Paris Peace conference 1919 [7] to try and claim the area) at least acknowledged the existence of Muslim Albanians, the numbers for Gjirokaster (p.10) are 9.895 Muslim Albanians, 1.695 Greeks (even though those numbers are acknowledged by scholarship to be biased in favour of the Greek view [8]). Gjirokaster has a Albanian majority and a large Muslim population. Its does not have a Orthodox majority. I still don't know where you got that idea from. If anything there is a discrepancy with Muslim numbers, especially as the Orthodox population has for a large part permanently left from Albania for Greece.Resnjari (talk) 23:40, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Khirurg of course the 6% Orthodox (down from 18% as per last measurement) countrywide while we somehow have 56% (Sunni+Halveti) Muslim was a real shock in my opinion. As is "2% Bektashi" (down from 15% or so). The 70-20-10 catchphrase pretends the irreligious somehow don't exist even though they're all over the place. But we don't put our personal opinions in the mainspace and imo shitty-but-still-not-replaced census stats are still notable-- but not necessary. Every side has made claims that they were underrepresented and also many people argue the census vastly undercounted the irreligious (potentially including in Gjirokaster). Anyhow re the census ignoring some of the foruming above, I'm really fine with whatever you guys decide re census ethnoreligious stats, so long as you don't kill each other.--Calthinus (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

It would be better to avoid wp:OR by stating that "only" the Orthodox vanished from the area due to migration. Large numbers of local Muslims also migrated.Alexikoua (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

I think we should add the 2011 Census figures while specifying that they are problematic and seriously contested by international organisations and the Greek minority. Since they are the only recent government figures many people who use Wikipedia might have come across them, so by adding them we also give people good opportunity to understand that they they are seriously contested. Vargmali (talk) 15:40, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Misrepresenting Giakoumis

I fail to understand why something that occurred 'on the land opposite Corfu' is also confirmed as part of the history of this town. Giakoumis in his work offers descriptions about the Albanian precense in the town ( According to the sources, there were two migrant groups, the one which travelled via Ohrid and ended in Thessaly while the other, moving through Kelcyre, reached Gjirokaster and the despotate. The purpose of their occupation was to search for new pasture lands. The combination of fertile plains and mountains rich in grasslands in the region of Gjirokaster was ideal for the poor nomadic Albanians who did not hesitate to ravage cities when they lacked provisions.."; p. 182. "Furthermore, I presented evidence that the in the fourteenth century immigrant Albanians taking advantage of the decimation of the local Epirote population by to the Black death also migrated into the regions of Gjirokastër) however the supposed presence opposite Corfu means nothing about Gjirokaster. No wonder the word Gjirokaster is absent in this part of Giakoumis' paper.Alexikoua (talk) 19:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

According to the same rationale we should copy paste the entire Epirus history section in here. In general: Epirus history isn't necessary history of Gjirokaster.Alexikoua (talk) 19:49, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Especially since the mention of the Albanian raiders/settlers in the "land off Corfu" is even less about Gjirokaster and more about Albanians, and specifically the subgroup later known as Chams. The one should not be confused with the other. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 23:36, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua I reviewed the source again and you are correct. Thank you for taking the time to explain. --Calthinus (talk) 15:00, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Giakoumis and 18th century

I've noticed that there is a huge historical gap almost 1+1/2 century long. Giakoumis provides some details on 18th century Gjirokaster and this can be fixed with a small addition.Alexikoua (talk) 14:01, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Internation relations

Being twinned with an Albanian city can't really be called 'international relations', right? Onoufrios d (talk) 06:29, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I will try to fix and add other international cities if I can find any reliable source Bes-ARTTalk 10:00, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:HISTRS manipulation

This edit [[9]] replaces information by a secondary academic source (the demolition of E.Hoxha statue by the Greek minority) with information provided by a local news portal (+removing anything linked to the Greek minority about this event). Editors should be very careful and follow wp:HISTRS on such issues.Alexikoua (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Your source does NOT mention which group demolished the statue of Enver Hoxha. It is NEVER stated that "the statue was demolished by ethnic greeks" RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Per wp:AGF I am presenting here the quote (already in the inline citation): Under communism the Greek minority was subject to serious human rights abuses, particularly in terms of religious freedom, education in the Greek language and freedom of publication. It played a leading part in the struggle to end the one party state, with the demolition of the monumental statue of Enver Hoxha in Gjirokastra in August 1991 an important landmark

What exactly can you not understand from this part? Let me help you: 'It' refers to the Greek minority. Don't remove it again.Alexikoua (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Kokolakis and other sources

• I have replaced Pettifer (2001) with Kokolakis (2003) in relation to this statement: Taken by the Hellenic Army during the Balkan Wars of 1912–13 on account of its large Greek speaking population which cites Pettifer (2001): Given its large Greek-speaking population, the city of Gjirokastra (in Greek, Agyrocastro), in the Vjosa (Aoos) River valley, only twenty miles from the Greek border, was a particularly active centre of irredentist ambition. Both the edit and the citation when compared to specialized references about the area turn out to be wrong. Any army - the Greek army included - in the Balkan Wars entered an area to seize it regardless of the local population. Neither Filiates, nor Konispol had a large Greek-speaking population, yet the Greek army attacked them - as did all armies everywhere in the Balkans without taking into account the wishes of the locals. The population of Gjirokastër itself was predominantly Albanian-speaking and only a small number of families were Greek-speaking. This is repeated throughout Kokolakis (2003). I included only a couple of the quotes: Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων. (p.50) Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες (...) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας.[Translation: Albanian was the dominant spoken language to the north of a line that started from the region of Agioi Saranda, passed by the towns of Delvino and Argyrokastro (between the villages of Kolortsi and Dervicani) and reached Politsani, where the northernmost tip of the province Pogoniou, it turned towards the southeast and roughly followed the course of the current Greek-Albanian border. (p.50) The scattered Greek-speaking population included the Greek-speaking islands (...) and a small number of families in the urban centers of Argyrokastro and Avlona.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

• I removed Hammond (1976) and replaced this part of the section with Osswald (2011). This statement by Hammond (1976): When Isaou, the Italian ruler of Ioannina, passed to the offensive in 1399, he had already won over the Mazarakii (Albanians) and the Malakasaei (perhaps Vlach- speakers) and he recruited Greeks evidently from Zagori, Papingo (above Konitsa), and "Druinoupolis with Argyrokastro and the great Zagoria" (probably the high country northwest of Argyrokastro, of which a part is still called Zagorie) was cited as In 1399 the Greek inhabitants of the city joined the Despot of Epirus, Esau, in his campaign against various Albanian and Aromanian tribesmen. The wikipedia entry distorts Hammond (1976) as he doesn't claim that the tribesmen fought against Esau, but with Esau against Gjon Zenebishi, while Hammond (1976) distorts the original quotation as there is no comment about ethnicity in this passage of the Chronicle of Ioannina: ἐκστρατεύει κατὰ τοῦ Γκίονη τοῦ Ζενεβίση ὁ δεσπότης Ἰζαοὺ μετὰ πάσης δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ. ἐπισυνάξας οὖν τὰ στρατεύματα, τοὺς Μαλακασαίους καὶ Μαζαρακαίους, ἔτι δὲ τοῦ Παπίγκου καὶ τῶν Ζαγορίων, ἀλλὰ δὴ καὶ τῆς Δρυϊνουπόλεως μετὰ τοῦ Ἀργυροκάστρου καὶ τῶν Μεγάλων Ζαγορίων I relied on the translation by Osswald (2011) who doesn't use any ethnic categories for the people who were part of Esau's army as no such categories exist in the original source. Hence, I replaced Hammond's interpretation with Osswald (2011).--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:36, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Psomas

• I am not necessarily against including that content [10], but first it should be clarified what is meant with "Gjirokaster region". Ofc it is not the town itself, since the town was Muslim-majority (per Kokolakis). Psomas' "Gjirokaster region" was Orthodox-majority, so maybe it included Dropull, Pogon etc. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:25, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  Where does Kokolakis state the Muslims were a majority in the city of Gjirokaster? Khirurg (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

The article using Kokolakis as a source says: During the 19th and early 20th century, Albanian speaking Muslims were the majority population of Gjirokastër, while only a few Greek-speaking families lived there. Citing Kokolakis and Giakoumis,it also says: From the 16th century until the early 19th century Gjirokastër went from being a predominantly Christian city to one with a Muslim majority due to much of the urban population converting to Islam alongside an influx of Muslim converts from the surrounding countryside. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I can see that, but that's not what I asked. I asked, where does Kokolakis state that Muslims were a majority in the city in the late 19th/early 20th century? Page number or quote. Khirurg (talk) 00:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

• It's not exactly certain what the discussion is about but Kokolakis does mention that the population of the city of Gjirokastër was Muslim: Οι περιοχές εκείνες οι οποίες, μολονότι αλβανόφωνες, γειτόνευαν άμεσα με συμπαγή ελληνόφωνο πληθυσμό (τα περίχωρα του Αργυροκάστρου, το Μπρεγουδέτι, δηλαδή τα παραλιακά μέρη της επαρχίας Δελβίνου, το Φανάρι, οι Λάκκες, και φυσικά όλες σχεδόν οι περιοχές της αρβανίτικης διασποράς στη νοτιότερη Ελλάδα) δεν επηρεάστηκαν παρά μόνο σποραδικά από το ρεύμα του εξισλαμισμού. Σ' αυτά τα μέρη οι μουσουλμανικές κοινότητες, όταν υπήρχαν, περιορίζονταν στο συμπαγή πληθυσμό ορισμένων πόλεων και κωμοπόλεων (Αργυρόκαστρο, Λιμπόχοβο, Λεσκοβίκι, Δέλβινο, Παραμυθιά) (..) [Translation:Those areas which, although Albanian-speaking, were directly adjacent to a solid Greek-speaking population (the outskirts of Argyrokastro, Bregoudeti, i.e. the coastal parts of Delvinou province, Fanari, Lakkas, and of course almost all the areas of the Albanian diaspora in southernmost Greece ) were only sporadically affected by the current of Islamization. In these places the Muslim communities, when they existed, were limited to the compact population of certain cities and towns (Argyrokastro, Limbokhovo, Leskoviki, Delvino, Paramythia) (..)] There are many sources which highlight this aspect of demographics. @Ktrimi991: can you move your discussion with Khirurg to a new section?--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I added a heading so it is a separate section now. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Kokolakis mentions "Muslim communities" and includes Gjirokaster among them, but I don't see "Muslim majority" mentioned anywhere. Of course there was a Muslim community in Gjirokaster at the time, but it does not mean the town was Muslim majority. I don't see that anywhere in Kokolakis. Khirurg (talk) 02:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The term "compact population" refers to the Muslim majority.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

"Compact population" does not mean "majority". Thanks for confirming your source does not support the claim of a Muslim majority. Khirurg (talk) 03:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

It does - this is what "compact population" refers to. I can list all the urban families of Gjirokastër and it'll become apparent that the vast majority are Muslim.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:26, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Issue

I failed verification regarding the passage: "Given its large Greek population, the city was claimed and taken by Greece during the First Balkan War of 1912–1913, following the retreat of the Ottomans from the region.", which directly confronts with the passage above it, which I could verify: "During the 19th and early 20th century, Albanian speaking Muslims were the majority population of Gjirokastër, while only a few Greek-speaking families lived there.". Could someone check if the source actually mentions "Given its large Greek population"? AlexBachmann (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I found the cited pdf here. The article text closely mirrors the source text, which is that the Greek population was large, but not the majority. The source also confirms that the Greek population was in the minority. The other source doesn't say "only a few" but "small number", which is a pretty squishy distinction. But perhaps the most interesting detail is that the first source notes that population numbers from that time may be inaccurate, so it may be difficult to determine which source is more accurate. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for taking the time for this. I wanted to ask which source you're referring to when you mentioned "first source"? The first source here or in the article? The first source in the article is the second one here. I know, sounds confusing. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Sure! By "first source" I meant the source for the "large greek population" claim, which is here. By "second source" I meant the source for the "few Greek-speaking families" claim, which is here, although I should emphasize that for the second source, I'm relying on the translation given in the citation template. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright, based on what I've read, I would propose to change "Given its large Greek population" into "Given its Greek minority". The first one may even implicate a Greek majority. Again, thanks for your help, I appreciate it. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm supportive of that change; it conveys the same intent while still conforming to the source. Along those same lines, I suggest that "only a few" in the second claim be changed to something like "a small number", both to better conform with the source and to remove the use of "only" per MOS:EDITORIAL. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Alright, I'll agree with that. If anyone has an objection, they may be heard here. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:20, 17 September 2023 (UTC)