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Comment 1

Quite off the point. The most common use of Gematria is hardly to do with the Sephiroth etc, let alone geometrical shapes. The Gematria of a word is, indeed, its numerical value as calculated by the common table Aleph = 1, Beth = 2 etc. Yod = 10, Kaf = 20 etc. Kuf = 100, Resh = 200. Its uses then lie in finding words and sentences with a similar value, if necessary employing the Kollel (+/- 1). Gematria is used by the Torah commentator Baal ha-Turim as well as many after him (the Keli Yakar, the Chassidic giants). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.67.71 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 17 February 2004 (UTC)

Table of final values

Based on a conversation with OwenX recorded on my talk page I've added a table to show the different values that are sometime assigned to the final forms of those Hebrew letters that have them. While I'm at I'm going to try and clean up the inconsistencies in the appearance of the word gematria. I'm changing all instances to italic, except the first, and changing all to lower case where they are not the initial word of a sentence. < Puck 03:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm reposting this from the HelpDesk. 

Jfdwolff - Moderator

Subject: Gematria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

There are several "External Links" below that link to web pages that allow
the user to do "Gematria" which is the conversion of Hebrew or Greek letters
into numerals.

I put up a link because my site deals with this subject matter and has a far
better tool to do the calculations then the ones currently there or on the
internet for that matter. Those pages have Ads and Banners. Mine does not,
nor does it ask for donations. It's not selling Viagra or anything else,
just offering up a useful tool for people out there that do what I do. I
have thousands of words in my data base that I give for free when dealing in
this topic, yet the moderator "Jfdwolff" decided I'm some kind of self
spammer to promote a commerical site.

Commercial -Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and
distributed in large quantities for use by industry (none of which I do its
all FREE)

I'ts a real shame he would remove my link to a useful tool that people want
for free and keep these other links that are complete garbage.

Please take the time to examine my tool compared to the other sites you
allow External links to.

The current links:

http: //www.c2kb.com/gematria/
http://www.baraksh.co.il/webgim/
http://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Hebrew_Gematria/hebrew_gematria.html
http://www.shmulik.co.il/gmatrix/

My site and tool:

http://www.numberman.net/Greek_Gem_Calculator.html
http://www.numberman.net/Hebrew_Gem_Calculator.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by HelpRing (talk • contribs) 02:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I am removing the link attached to the description, it links to a masonic website which does deal with gematria since it is placed at the end of a section I find controversial it gives the appearance of being a sited source. The statement attempts to state that other forms of gematria predate the hebrew version, I am not stating that this is true or false I AM stating that I don't beleive it is actually known and is therefore a personal opinion. The link at the end of the statement in any case does not appear to back up the statement. Can anyone verify these statements? --Chaoscrowley 03:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed the statement that the final forms are not used in "non-mystical numeration." This is simply false the final forms are used. In the next few days if no one is opposed I will be doing some major re-edits of this page. I feel it does not properly categorize the forms of Gematria and at times runs into long discussions that don't relate directly to the subject. --Chaoscrowley 04:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Greek Gematria & English Gematria Simplex

If Wikipedia is here to help expand knowledge then this paticular subject of
Gematria suffers from allowing the moderator to remove useful links for
people to reference. I can't upload the tool nor can I possibly upload
several thousand Greek and Hebrew words with their numeric values for people
to study.

I would like tTThe moderator to reconsider what he has done as I see it highly
unfair and unprofessional. Kindly restore my links or remove these others as
they then would qualify as garbage links. I would fix it, but the moderator
would then restore it to his liking again.

Thanks for your time

Could someone please take a look at the site and investigate his claims? --HelpRing 02:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

A website posted by a username with the same name (NumberMan (talk · contribs)). It relies on Flash rather than the much more straightforward Javascript. But NumberMan does not know that I never removed the links. Other users did. All I did was leave {{spam}} on his talkpage, which I felt was justified given that the URL was posted on 10 pages. Instead of leaving a message on my talkpage he sends me an email and runs to the helpdesk. Please WP:COOL. JFW | T@lk 01:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


'Biblical Language Gematria Tables'Bold text'THE TRUTH PREVAILS


Are there any objections to including Gematria Tables for the Biblical Languages here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo daoist (talk • contribs) 13:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Reference needed

I object to using Abarim Publications' Bible Commentary: What If The Best Isn't Good Enough? as a reference. It's an online (=unedited, unscrutinized) commentary by someone promoting mystical, transcendental Biblical theories, and the "fact" assertion is made in a totally offhand manner, without any citation. This is not the sort of reference we use in Wikipedia. I don't know if it is true that the Hebrews had NO means at all of expressing fractions (= quantities less than 1). Both the ancient Egyptians and the Romans did. I'm going to zap the weak "reference" and flag the assertion with {{fact}} so that it attracts editorial attention. In the meantime, I will look through my own library to see if I can find any support for the assertion. --Cbdorsett 05:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

seem to require a login. Could someone verify and remove the link? --Aleph1 00:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I checked it out and "WebGim" is working. The other one still requires login. 85.250.191.138 16:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


Request for review

In May I added a link to a gematria toolbar that I wrote for IE. Recently the link was pulled under the context of link-spam. I recognize Wikipedia's External LInk policy sets forth that my own adding of this link crosses conflict of interest guidelines. I ask other editors to investigate the toolbar. If it matches the statements I made about it in my original link, please re-add the link. I've received many positive points of feedback regarding the toolbar, and I feel that it's reasonable to assume that it is a positive community resource. Shpoffo 07:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Strange template

I really cannot see what the point in {{find}} is. This should either be on every single Wikipedia page (i.e. ask Bugzilla) or not at all. I removed it for this reason. Could whoever wants it here please clarify. JFW | T@lk 09:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Could I point out that it belongs on AFD pages and on stubs (see Template:Findsources/doc). Please provide an argument why we should deviate from these usage notes. JFW | T@lk 09:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia suffers from the lack of cited sources in the articles. I tend to think its because people are just lazy to even look online, hence the find template. It should be on every article where there are either a stub or unref templates so people will use the special relationship Wikipedia has with Google and look for supporting material.--Meieimatai 12:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meieimatai (talk • contribs)

This article is not a stub and the usage note says nothing about unreferenced articles. The sources you are looking for is not to be found on Google but rather in books. I will remove the template, because it is being used well outside its intended usage. You are free to use it on the talkpage. JFW | T@lk 14:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You can see somewhere where it says the use of template is forbidden for any other purpose? Please provide a link to this as I was unaware of this condition of use--Meieimatai 15:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meieimatai (talk • contribs)

Original research/NPOV

The "Use in Judaism" section seems to be written from a religious Jewish point of view, clearly invested in perpetuating the notion that the Torah was written using Aramaic script despite the general scholarly consensus - and Jewish tradition (cf. Talmud tractate Sanhedrin 21b) - which asserts that Aramaic script in the Hebrew language was adopted after the Babylonian Exile. The section is rife with original research; not a single external source is quoted save for a specific translation of the Bible (not necessarily a scholarly source). Furthermore, despite its name, the section does not delve into the use of gematria in Judaism save for the very first sentence - it is almost entirely a poorly reasoned and sourced polemic ("...Interestingly modern scholars ignore the very fact that the K'tav Ivri is named after Abraham who was known as the Ivri...") against the dominant scholarly view concerning the evolution of Hebrew script. Inaccuracy aside, how is it even relevant?

So given the original research, factual inaccuracy and irrelevance to the topic, it is my feeling the section should either be deleted or rewritten to reflect gematria's place in Jewish religious thought.

I do not understand the point you are making. But it is hard to see how deleting the section will improve the article, particularly since removing "Use in Judaism" would remove what should be the core of the article. If you can improve the article, please do. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
At second look, it seem that you are right and there is virtually nothing in the section worth saving. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Discuss section

I have moved this section to the talk page for discussion:

==Gematria and discovery of Pi==

Gematria has been employed to contend that the author of Kings, who according to traditionalists is Jeremiah, was aware of the approximate value of Pi. A plain reading of 1 Kings 7:23 suggests that its author believed that 3, rather than 3.14159..., is the value of Pi. The verse describes the molten sea that was made in the Temple as being 10 cubits from brim to brim (diameter) and as being encircled completely by a line of 30 cubits (circumference).

In Jewish tradition, words appearing in portions of the Books of the Prophets are occasionally read (Kri) differently than they are written (Ktiv), although this phenomenon is not particularly common. Some traditional biblical scholars, such as Rabbi Judah Loew, the 16th century Maharal of Prague, attribute the Kri/Ktiv dichotomy to the original authors of the Books of the Prophets. In this instance, the written form of the word meaning "circumference" is spelled קוה (Kuf, Vav, Hey) for the molten sea's circumference. Yet, the read form is spelled קָו (Kuf, Vav). The numerical value of קוה is 111 (Kuf = 100, Vav = 6, Hey = 5), while that of קָו is 106 (Kuf = 100, Vav = 6). The ratio of these two numbers (111/106 = 1.047169) closely approximates the ratio between Pi and 3 (1.047197). If used to calculate Pi, a value of 3.141509 is obtained, which is approximately 99.997% of the known value. The Vilna Gaon, a Rabbinic luminary of the 18th Century known for a remarkable mathematical prowess, is often credited with this discovery.

This can be compared with a phenomenon found in the Pythagorean motto "God is ever a geometer" (ἀεὶ ὁ Θεὸς ὁ μέγας γεωμετρεῖ)—counting the letters of the words (3,1,4,1,5,9) reveals the first six digits of pi (3.14159).

This entire section seems to rely on primary sources which is not allowed in Wikipedia articles under WP:NOR [1] As it says: Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is attributed, just not sourced properly. To my knowledge there is no commentary by the Vilna Gaon on the book of Kings, so it must be from somewhere else. JFW | T@lk 12:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Without sourcing it appears to be original research. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"Greek Gematria predates it"

Hello, the statement: "Greek Gematria predates it" where it refers to Hebrew seems to lack sense of chronology. I believe its a well known fact that Semitic languages and Hebrew, including its earlier versions like Arameic, are as old as Greek since its origins belong to the 2nd millennium BC. (please refer to the corresponding sites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/hebrew). Since gematria mostly concerns Judeo-Christian monotheistic themes and Semitic languages where spoken by these people as opposed to Greek who was spoken by people who believed in Mythology and polytheism, Greek gematria cant precede due to the cultural differences and trends that happened in each at the same time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.80.52.219 (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

shalom.

the language of the torah is even older than the koine greek or julian latin which the scriptures were translated into. the tanakh was translated by egyptian jewish leaders into greek, and subsequently translated into latin by jerome. 216.171.96.18 (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC) the language of the torah and jewish commentaries, known as Hebrew Language, has words in common with other languages such as Korean, Russian, and English. The pictographic system of Chinese writing has ideographic idioms which relate to the Hebrew narrative of History. The Jews of Kaifeng could have brought this culture with them, but the idiomatic chinese dates to a much earlier time. In Chinese History, the nomadic peoples which settled the area known as Han China used fire and tools. By the Han Dynasty, the writing system used today in Taiwan Island was well-established.

Shalom Eleichem, with love of Israel, 216.171.96.18 (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I added the link for a program I wrote- http://www.thetrugmans.com/trugman_gematria.shtml. While I wrote the program, it should be noted that my Rabbi, Rabbi Trugman, is himself a scholar on the subject, and wrote the explanation on that page (aside from program usage). Furthermore, he has been a student of Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh (most likely the world's expert on Gematria) for over 30 years. While they have not checked to make sure that the program works perfectly, they are both very interested in it, and Rabbi Trugman has hands-on control over the content of that website. While it might not be the most comprehensive, it is among the most accurate, so someone who has a better grasp of wikitext might want to use it as a reference. Also, I admit- the tool is the clearest and most advanced gematria Tanach searcher I've seen. Please keep it under the external links.

Omnivibe 17:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain in what way the program is better than the numerous other gematria calculators available? JFW | T@lk 18:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes- 1) The interface is in English, with a graphical input pad for putting in Hebrew 2) It allows for different substitution (i.e. atbash) and authoritative Gematria systems (i.e. ordinal), 3) It has an in-depth explanation by an authority on the subject, 4) It searches from within Tanach, which, for Gematria, has more significance than any other body of text. Gematria is a way of showing the relationship between Hebrew letters in the Tanach. This tool demonstrates some of these relationships. Omnivibe 08:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, let's see if other contributors agree too. The tool looks nice, but we've had so many different once added to this page in the past that I want everyone to agree. JFW | T@lk 23:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. How do we see if other contributors agree? Hey people- can you please check out http://www.thetrugmans.com/trugman_gematria.shtml and write here what you think about the uniqueness and relevance of this tool to the Gematria page? Also, JFW, I'm very new to editing wikipedia, but you might want to take a look at that page as a reference for more information on Gematria from a reliable source (he was an editor for the book "The Hebrew Letters: Channels of Creative Consciousness"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe (talk • contribs) 08:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It has now been about a year and nobody has objected. Can we please add it now? :) In an interesting connection, I used the utility to search for גפו which is my approximation of the English "JFW"- and guess what? The second match using regular gematria, where it equals 89, is in Genesis chapter 2 verse 24- the word יעזב which means to "leave, forget, or abandon." So now that we've, um, forgotten to follow up on this for a year... maybe it's time to add it.גפו = הזה כי גדלה too ;)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe
You are talking about adding an external link? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.124.125 (talk) 09:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

culture reference

Might be useful to include this in the article, as there is a song on the recent Slipknot album, All Hope Is Gone, titled Gematria (The Killing Name).

--Divya da animal lvr (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Plato's Cratylus

There is a link her that references Plato's Cratylus dialog – suggesting that Plato discusses the "essential force" of a thing in relation to its numerical value. Yet there is no other reference given other than the Cratylus dialog. I have not been able to find any discussion of the numerical value of names in the Cratylus dialog. Could someone please point to the relevant passage and in which English translation this can be found. I searched the Benjamin Jowett translation and found no mention of it.

Mbase1235 (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

An important calculator for Gematria

There is probably a better calculator in the net that finds synonymous and works in English, i think it should be added to the list of external links: [http: //www.gematrix.org gematrix.org - English Gematria Calculator] - Finds synonymous expressions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isaviv (talk • contribs) 13:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Following the request of the big warning in the comments section, i am asking:

Is it OK to add a link to Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, §5b and §5n?

This is a classic Biblical Hebrew grammar book - not a calculator or a Bible code theory. It's not big, but it seems to me that it would be the only source here that is academic, non-religious, reliable and available online. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 09:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Sefirah

Seeing no link to that word, I discover that "the neutrality, etc." Can you help ?

Thank you. --DLL 23:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Why should there be a link? JFW | T@lk 23:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
The article states : "Gematria is a system of recognizing a correspondence between the ten sefirot" - same word, different number.
The help I request is less for the link than for the related article, which seems to need correction. I won't create a link if the author here agrees to the needs there and declined to make the link himself. --DLL 00:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

"Hebrew gematria is linked to the 10 Sefirot", but Simple English Gematria is not.

- Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.134.157.75 (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Greek Gematria

This article definitely needs to mention Greek Gematria, too. In its current state it almost completely overlooks it. A table showing letters and corresponding numbers is needed, as is already present for Hebrew. Markdarb 06:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above. My research has led me to conclude that Greek gematria was very prevalent with Pythagoras, the Pythagoreans, and Plato. Centuries later, the Greek scriptures of the Bible were written by scribes using Greek gematria. Exposing this will promote further research into understanding ancient Greek texts. - Brad Watson, Miami, FL64.134.157.75 (talk) 16:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

jfdwolff deleted these external links:

  • Gematria Calculator - Calculate numerical values of words in various Hebrew, Greek, and English number systems.
  • The Gematria of Gematria for being "random." The brief article gives the gematria of the Hebrew word "gematria" in two common spellings and a short semantic analysis according to the interpretation of the Qabalist *Carlo Suares as well as sublinks to three articles --
  • Gematria of the Autiot, *Types of Gematria and* Gematria Links, the largest collection of Gematria links on the web, ranked (as of today) 3rd on a Google search for "gematria links" and in the top 20 for "gematria." Knowing that WP/jfdwolff disapproves of link pages, no matter how unique or useful to researchers in these relatively esoteric areas, I external-linked to a more general subject-specific page with multiple relevant gematria resources. Perhaps jfdwolff meant something else when he used the word "random" as the reason for deletion. It does help to have some familiarity with the subject.

One problem with this article is that gematria as a term is really never defined. For instance, the first definition under *Mystical gematria (poorly) defines the whole by a part, as do most of the other explicit "examples" (used four times in an eight paragraph article}. The article remains unaware of the semantic side of the alpha-numeric qualities underlying the "system" of gematria, which has its roots and parallels in pre-medieval Jewish mystical thought, Egyptian numerology and Pythagorean and Neo-Platonic philosophy such as *Iamblicus, and which are characterized by Gershom Scholem as the "fundamental powers of being" embodied in the letter-numbers of the Hebrew alphabet (On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism 1965). The *Sepher Yetzirah is the prime example of this style of thought in Jewish mysticism or pre-Kabbalah.

The link defines Gematria as "the numerical essence of a letter, word or phrase," which seems more to the point to me.

The article in its present state is a short and disorganized collection of usages and a bunch of online calculators. The external link was intended to broaden the perspective on the "meaning" of gematria. I wonder if *Gematria of the Autiot would have fared any better? I apologize in advance for any randomness and look for guidance on what makes an appropriate external link.

--Aleph1 02:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Defining gematria. When referring to Simple English Gematria, it would mean the 'geometry of the language' including the most basic alphanumeric code of A=1...Z=26.

- Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.134.157.75 (talk) 16:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

i was going to suggest adding a link to Gematrix.org due to it's relevence to this subject matter but apparently it's on the spam blacklist. it's a calculater site doing 3 alphabet computations and giving sample of similar results to campare it too as well as info on the subject matter. just thought il'd mention it. Bloodkith (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hebrew in the lead

גימטריה is used in the lead, though an anon user changed it and the Hebrew wiki link to גימטריא‎. While the user has a point, I think we should stuck with the גימטריה as it's the name of the Hebrew article on the subject. גימטריא simply redirects to גימטריה in the Hebrew wiki, and I think we should recognize their authority. Rklawton (talk) 02:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Template to calculate Gematria

Hi. I'm a contributor on the hebrew sister site Wikitext. I'm trying to locate (or have someone create) a Wiki-Template that will calculate gematria of a word and/or string of words, and display it in a pop-up box when the mouse is hovered over the word. Example: Template: gmt|אבא אמא}} would give me the number 44.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? DMOKHTAR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.253.63.172 (talk) 10:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Good Online Gematria Calculator Proposal

I made a standard Hebrew Gematria calculator of a kind that is yet not linked. It is located at my site: http://www.torakosmos.de/gematria.php ... I consider adding this will be a great benefit for people who want to check word values quickly by entering the Hebrew letters via buttons. 80.99.111.233 (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Nobody responded here, so I inserted the link to give it a try. Please discuss here before removing it. 77.4.110.44 (talk) 16:58, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Somebody removed my link without notice. 93.135.164.224 (talk) 19:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gematria is NOT numerology

Gematria is the geometry of the language. A numerologist can use gematria, but that doesn't make gematria numerology. A numerologist can use your height and weight, but that doesn't make your height and weight numerology. A numerologist can use your area code and zip code, but that doesn't make your area code and zip code numerology. A numerologist can use your birthday, but that doesn't make your birthday numerology. A numerologist can use your... - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.157.29 (talk) 00:12, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Gematria is a branch of the Kabbalah

By making the Hebrew letters and words into numbers the rabbis were doing calculations. פארוק (talk) 13:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) is a branch of English Kaballa(7,40=K11+A1+B2+A1+L12+L12+A1). 7 & 40 are recurring themes in the Bible. - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.157.29 (talk) 00:24, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Gematria (Greek: meaning 'geometry') is code and numerology

I tweaked the opening paragraph... Gematria /ɡəˈmeɪ.tri.ə/ (Greek: meaning geometry) is an Assyro-Babylonian-Greek system of code and numerology later adopted into Jewish culture that assigns numerical value to a word or phrase in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to nature, a person's age, the calendar year, or the like. 69.180.104.60 (talk) 12:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Why should there be no additional calculators?

There are plenty of good calculators that have many useful functions that are different than the others. They should be included as well for the reasons explained previously. Please answer why users should stop adding additional calculators? 207.229.156.214 (talk) 05:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

People can use Google to find gematria calculators. I don't think it is an appropriate use of Wikipedia to list them, even though some are pretty cute. Zerotalk 06:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Zero: "Pretty cute"? You obviously know little about gematria. Of course, good gematria calculator links should be part of an encyclopedia article. STOP being a hindrance to education. 73.85.207.51 (talk) 13:03, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

The gematria calculator at http://torahcalc.com/gematria/ is an easy to use calculator that instantly calculates the Hebrew gematria of a word using 25 different methods of gematria. I think it is worth adding to the list of links because it is able to give you results for multiple gematria methods which can be more useful in some cases. (Also I think that some of the other calculators that people have suggested previously are definitely worth adding to the page because there are things that some calculators do that are different and much more useful.) 207.229.156.214 (talk) 03:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Don't ignore English gematria calculators; there are many on the Internet. 73.85.203.27 (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Extensive use of Gematria in Islamic poetry and inscriptions, especially funerary

Why does this article not mention the extensive use of Gematria in Persian poetry and inscriptions, and in other literatures inspired by the Persians? It is especially common on tombstones, where a poetic inscription provides via gematria the year of death (in Hejri dates). Is there an article about this elsewhere in Wikipedi?

David Chaffetz Dec 11, 201659.149.193.166 (talk) 13:20, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Lead section: chai

In the lead section, the word chai should be listed in the original Hebrew script because the Hebrew word is relevant to the context. Not speaking Hebrew, I need someone to supply this for the article. LaundryPizza03 (talk) 02:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Language used by Sargon II was...?

"Sargon II ... built the wall ... to correspond with the numerical value of his name." What language & script did he use? Pls. fill in and adapt heading accordingly, for instance "Assyria (Akkadian)". Arminden (talk) 15:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

John of Patmos encoded Neron Kaisar (Greek) as "666", Nero Caesar (Latin) became "616" in Vulgate

John of Patmos encoded 'Neron Kaisar' as "six hundred sixty-six (666)" by transliterating his name in Greek into Hebrew gematria. Nero Caesar in Latin was transliterated into "six hundred sixteen (616)" through Hebrew gematria. "616" appeared in the Latin Vulgate. 73.85.202.238 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Gematria with English

The following is a list of Gematria numerical codes for each letter in the English alphabet.

It is all in lower case script.

a = 15 b = 7 c = 14 d = 16 e = 18 f = 21 g = 28 or 31 (depending on sound) h = 8 i = 9 j = 16 k = 16 l = 2 m = 13 n = 10 o = 14 p = 10 q = 16 r = 6 s = 8 t = 9 u = 4 v = 14 w = 28 x = 28 y = 17 z = 24 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.128.106.114 (talk) 13:04, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

EW Bullinger's analysis of biblical gematria

Anglican cleric E. W. Bullinger wrote a book, still widely used, about gematria coincidences in both the Hebrew Old Testament and Greek New Testament. I had included a reference to this in the Gematria article under the History heading but it has since been removed. Although the reference to his book has been retained on the E. W. Bullinger Wikipedia page. I think readers of this Gematria page should be alerted to the fact that this book was published and is still available. --Abrahamisaacs (talk) 05:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Mathematical value

Shouldn't there be a section regarding criticisms of this numerology? I've heard that mathematicians have pretty much entirely debunked the study. Not to mention that there is really no predicting power of the numbers. It seems people always find messages about events after they happen in contrived forms. I mean is this really any better that retooling the predictions of Nostradamus? jordan 02:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I would have to sort of agree with the above. What I would really like to see is a statistical distribution of the prevalence of meaningful Gemmatrial word tuples (a,b,c) where a,b have a gemmatrial/mathematical relation to c (addition, subtraction?) in several different languages (probably excluding vowels if the purpose is to contrast them to Hebrew). Then one could use statistical methods to determine if these tuples were more prevalent in Hebrew than other languages and whether this was statistically significant. Of course this might take several decades on a supercomputer, but it is probably the only form of proof that would convince me that Gemmatria is not just an example of the power of working backwards. (AH)

Gematria is not neccessarily numerology, although it can be used by numerologists. Gematria=74 is objective and indisputable when using 'the key'(74) of A=1...Z=26. Now a numerologist can take 74 and do whatever with it to subjectively prove whatever symbolically, but gematria "doesn't go there". There is a "predicting power of the numbers" in Simple English Gematria.

- Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.134.157.75 (talk) 16:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your mathematical concerns and published a paper on this in 2018 which is available at this link If the Moderator or others agree then feel free to include this reference in the main article (I cannot do it myself under Wikipedia's self-citation rules) as readers of the main page ought to be aware that there are genuine mathematical concerns with gematria. Abrahamisaacs (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Abrahamisaacs: if it's published in a reputable journal and has been cited elsewhere (see WP:UNDUE, it might be ok. Otherwise see WP:SPS. There aren't any moderators. Doug Weller talk 09:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
It was published in the The Christadelphian. While I did enjoy the article quite a bit (and would, if I was still in contact with some certain acquaintances, roundly beat them over the head with it), and would readily accept it as a counter-source if anyone wanted to suggest that Christadelphians accept gematria, or as a counter-source for anyone considering saying that Bullinger might have been onto something (rather than on something), I'm not positive that an article in The Christadelphian can be cited as a nonsectarian criticism of gematria. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Possible additions to "see also" section

I have very little knowledge of this topic, but this topic seems similar to Gödel numbering and Five-Percent_Nation#The_Universal_Language, so if anyone more knowledgeable than me thinks those are related, maybe those could go in the "see also" section. Gmarmstrong (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

BC/BCE

This article is inconsistent in its usage of BC/BCE. Given the Jewish context, BCE (a more neutral term) seems more appropriate. BibleScholar (talk) 11:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree, and I don't see there will be any objections so I've went ahead and made that change. Thank you. Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 19:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Etymology of Gematria

1) The supposed source for γραμματεια does NOT use that an an explanation. Block has an entirely speculative etymology with no supporting sources where he reads it as gamma = 3 (ie. the third letter of the alphabet gamma is 3). All standard sources derive the word from the Greek γεωμετρία. Examples: + Google (Oxford Languages) + https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gematria + https://www.etymonline.com/word/gematria

2) Block's gamma = 3 argument may come from Horowitz, but I don't have that source available. But note that Horowitz is a media expert not a linguist so I'm suspicious that this is also speculative. I can't read the book without buying it, but someone should. See https://www.balashon.com/2006/06/gematria.html (for Horowitz link) Block's "etymology": https://books.google.co.il/books?id=KonCmsgv9HsC&pg=PT703&dq=The+Complete+Idiot%27s+Guide+to+Jewish+Culture+gematria&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij7Oi-2cTxAhUhg_0HHXalChQQuwUwAXoECAMQBw#v=onepage&q=The%20Complete%20Idiot's%20Guide%20to%20Jewish%20Culture%20gematria&f=false

3) γραμματεια - Klein's dictionary (see Sefaria) notes the traditional explanation but claims that the word is derived from γραμματεια - but he doesn't explain why he thinks this. γραμματεια has an "r" sound and any cited source supporting this novel etymology needs to explain how the "r" dropped out given that γεωμετρία does not have that issue. Otherwise it is just speculation, even if it appears in a dictionary.

I hope an editor will change etymology entry to reflect standard derivations rather than speculative ones. If the speculative ones are kept in the name of a neutral point of view, it seems to me that it should be at least noted that no supporting evidence has been given for the alternative (eg Klein) etymology. Alternatively, if Klein or another has written an article using accepted linguistic methodology to support this derivation, that could be used as well (and would remove the Klein etymology from the realm of speculation.

2A02:ED0:4261:0:7C20:89E4:ECCF:D8B5 (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I second this, and I hope you'll consider giving the page an edit yourself. Thank you. I also suggest we mention that the Hebrew name for gematria was originally probably the simple word Manah מנה meaning 'to count/number/reckon'. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4487.htm (I mention that in my book 'Behold: The Art and Practice of Gematria.') Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 01:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Prioritizing fact before theories

How can "Gematria is a Hebrew alphanumeric code or cipher that was probably used in biblical times and was later adopted by other cultures." be mentioned before "The first documented use of gematria is from an Assyrian inscription dating to the 8th century BC, commissioned by Sargon II". One would assume that a fact is mentioned first and later theories appear in other sections.Gosale (talk) 06:32, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Right, and that's only the start of the problems. This article is full of conjectures presented as fact and a more academic source is badly required. Zerotalk 06:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. I think 'Aru' could do with its own section. It's gematria... but only nominally because it was used with a logographic writing script, and other cultures did not 'adopt' gematria from the Assyrian practice because they were using alphabetic writing scripts. People say to me all the time "It was copied from the Assyrians, right?" And I have to tell them, that while a "kind of" gematria was used by the Assyrians, it wasn't the same because they were arbitrarily assigning values to whole words by using tables, rather than adding up the value of individual letters. The main source on Aru is from Stephen J. Lieberman (1986) in his article 'A Mesopotamian Background for the So-Called Aggadic 'Measures' of Biblical Hermeneutics?'
Link - https://www.jstor.org/stable/23508256
It's also problematic calling it a code or cipher. That's a very modern perception, but it was probably just "Manah" 'counting' to the ancient biblical writers.
I want to run this by you guys - do you think it might be appropriate to mention the misuses of gematria? Five Rabbi's from the JewishPress.com were moved to write about this last year.
Link - https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/is-it-proper-is-it-appropriate-to-look-for-and-publicize-gematrias-and-torah-codes-related-to-the-current-coronavirus-pandemic/2020/04/01/
There are also some nice little factoids we could add to the page. For instance "The Gemara calls our ancient sages “sofrim” – people who know how to count." Source - https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/torah/its-all-in-the-numbers/2021/04/16/
Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 15:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

AfD Arithmancy

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arithmancy Sennalen (talk) 00:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Biblical Gematria

I can't contribute to this page because I run the Shematria gematria calculator and I write books and blogs about gematria. There would be a clear conflict of interest. However I have written a 'How-it-should-be-Wiki' about Gematria on my blog, and wiki editors might find ways to improve this page by consulting it.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/biblical-gematria-wiki/

Keep up the good work, 

Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 14:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't see how you could have a conflict of interest with a generic subject like gematria. Of course, you shouldn't cite any work with which you have a connection as a source. But the mere fact that you write about a subject elsewhere isn't incompatible with introducing information about it here as well. Largoplazo (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I have done a LOT of original research on the subject, perhaps more than any other current living author, so I would have a real problem. During my studies I have discovered a specific cipher that was used in the Tanakh, was transposed to Greek and used in the New Testament, and was transliterated to English and used by Aleister Crowley. I have learned that the biblical cipher only counted the nouns and used reserved words from verbs and prepositions as math notation and mnemonics. I also discovered that the so called "Standard Gematria" cipher was used as a cover-cipher in the Talmud and in certain Kabbalistic and occult works (i.e. you often find a rabbi discussing a sum using standard gematria as a blind. To understand the real point he's making you need to use the hidden biblical cipher). As far as I'm aware this would all be deemed as 'original research' by wikipedia, especially as I'm a self-publishing author, and I doubt my blog with the Times of Israel would be an acceptable source either. I'm afraid that we shall have to wait until someone else writes about my work before any of these matters can be brought up in this wiki page.
It's a bit of a shame though, since there are some cracking examples of gematria I could cite... 9000 for the Shemhamphorash. 700 for Genesis 1:1. 777 for the 7 days of the week, and for the New Testament verse (John 21:10-11) that mentions exactly 153 fishes. Also 777 for the 'good wife' in Proverbs 31:10, and for John 1:1. There's no help for it though.
I wish we could remove the moniker of "Assyro-Babylonian-Greek system" from the main page. The Babylonians used 'aru' but it was with tables corresponding arbitrary words (logographs) and very different from the use of gematria with the Hebrew Alephbet. Also - Jews didn't copy gematria from the Greeks. The reason why gematria wasn't found in the bible by scholars was that they used the Standard cover-cipher to assess the matter, but as I demonstrate in my work it was used in the first Temple Period by the Hebrews and preceded the birth of Pythagoras. I believe it was Kieren Barry that first opined that Hebrew gematria was copied from Greek Isopsephy, but that's a bad source. Kieren was first and foremost a Greek scholar with little knowledge of Hebrew and his degree wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Yet because there have been so few authors on the subject of gematria, his 'opinion' was later cited as fact by later authors, and has ended up dominating this wiki unfortunately.
Here's my blog. If you think it can be used as a source you are welcome to use it, but bless you - you'd have a hard job finding a second source at the moment. Maybe in another 10-20 years...  :-)
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/bethsheba-ashe/

Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 19:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

This section on your work seems to give undue weight to a single attempt at an English gematria. Other than Jim Lees' work, no others are mentioned after Agrippa. There is a page for English Qabalah with a section on gematria where this might fit better. Really, everything in this section after Agrippa and the Golden Dawn table seems like original research. And even the table needs a source added. Catalyst418 (talk) 02:14, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
True. I'm a poor fit in the English Qabalah section really. There good news though. Aeon Books picked up "Behold" and plan to print it in 2023, and I've been told someone is planning an academic review of it, so I believe Wikipedia editors should be able to cite plenty of references and examples from the book next year if they want to present something more robust. My main interest is with 4 biblical gematria ciphers (including Standard) and the ancient practice of rhetoric math, which is math without notation. This form of ancient biblical math had rules and conventions that govern its use, similar to modern mathematics. It therefore falls into a very different category than numerology, and is just a very different animal. It's a bit like the difference between astronomy and astrology. They both study the stars, but the similarity ends there.
As I recall the GD gematria transliteration table is in the GD black brick:
https://archive.org/details/IsraelRegardie-TheGoldenDawnblackBrick1986-Enhanced
as well as the Equinox (Aleister Crowley). It's probably in Dion Fortune's "Mystical Qabalah" too.
Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 06:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Btw Largoplazo, you may be interested in a new page I've added to Shematria: "The Gematria of the Book of Genesis". It catalogues the math/gematria of all the verses from the first two chapters. https://www.shematria.com/gg
Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 19:23, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The Agrippa Cipher

I know there's a lot of interest in the Agrippa cipher out there, so I've added a picture of it and a quote sourced from Three books of occult philosophy written by Henry Cornelius Agrippa of Nettesheim ... ; translated out of the Latin into the English tongue by J.F.

The thing is, above the quote is a cited assertion that U is 600, when it seems after reading Agrippa's quote that the U is 200 and V is 600? I think we might be misquoting him. Does anyone object to me changing it? Please compare:

Additionally, in 1532 Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa also defined a cipher intended for use with English in his work De Occulta Philosopha. Agrippa based his system on the order of the classical Latin alphabet, appending the four additional letters in use at the time after Z, including the still-in-use letters U (600), J (700), and W (900).

"And seeing in the Roman Alphabet there are want∣ing four to make up the number of twenty seven Characters, their places are supplyed with I, and V simple consonants, as in the names of John, and Valentine, and hi, and hu aspirate consonants as in Hierom, and Huilhelme, although the Germans for hu the asperate use a double v v."

Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 04:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Actually, it should be J (600), V (700), and W (900)!! He says it quite plainly! Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 21:52, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Ciphers are applied to writing scripts, not languages

This writing script that I/we are writing with is the Latin writing script. Western languages are written with it. It makes no sense to single out Latin ciphers that were used with the English from Latin ciphers that were used with French, German, Italian etc, as they differ very little from one another and they are all Latin writing scripts.

In respect of the Latin/English gematria sections I respectfully request that they be merged once more, and the direct quote from Tyson be omitted due to the fact he is contradicting Agrippa. Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I also note that other sources disagree with Tyson and they say Stifel was the first numerical cipher for use with English, which is why I removed the disputed claim. Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 00:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

But it was you who added that direct quote. There is disagreement about whether they apply to alphabets. Stratton-Kent says every qabalah must have a holy book. For English, that was the King James Bible, and later The Book of the Law. Holy books are written in specific languages, not just with specific alphabets. Therefore it makes sense to divide by language. Classical Latin has 23 letters, English 26. You cannot do English gematria with the Latin alphabet, but you can do Latin gematria with the English alphabet. Gematria is not merely a cipher, it is also an index into a holy book. Skyerise (talk) 00:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Re: the Agrippa quote.
The quote explains the photograph of the cipher in the book, and although you reverted to use Tyson’s incorrect quote that U=600, J=700, W=900 quote, at least with the Agrippa direct quote there and the photo, any alert reader will be able to figure out for themselves that U=200 and after the Z: I=J for John =600, V = V for Valentine = 700, and HV = W = 900. I am not going to edit war with you and revert however, and I don’t have any time left for extended arguments either. This was a much needed week off from regular coding and building games.
Re: Why gematria?
I don’t count Jake’s view as disagreement as much as a romantic view of things that came from his limited studies in this area. But if we consider a more academic perspective, gematria was practiced for the first 1300-1500 years without the Cannon of the Bible.
The first identification of a Hebrew letter being used as a number was the letter Beth as 2, and it was written on a pottery shard in ancient Egypt by a scribe that used half hieroglyphs and half proto-consonantal script circa 1500 bce (Petrovich). You see, rather than numbers being assigned to letters it was the other way around. Ancient people in the ANE master numbers way back probably in the Paolithic (Overmann), then they develop notation for them and a lot later these handy sets that everyone knows are attributed to phonetic sounds that people can record language with. This is why many of the names of the letters are given the same set value as the letters they describe. The Beth was a little house picture, so the word ‘House’ is 2. The Daleth was a door so the word ‘Door’ is 4. The Tsade is a little picture of a baby in swaddling. Another thing the alphabet recorded was the story of creation.
As numbers they likely helped people to remember a chant about creation. 1. Was the house of God, and 2 was the day and the night, three was the sky, and 3 was fire to dry the earth. 4 was the door through which living things (vegetation being the first) passed through, and 4 was Time. 5 was all light, and especially the light of the stars that was sent to earth, and 6. were the birds and the fishes. And so on.
Recognize it yet? This is Genesis 1-2 in a numerical nutshell. By the time it was written (likely at the first Temple), Gematria had become a highly sophisticated and polish practice of formal mathematics, but the second real record we have of gematria being done was number magic. It was used to weaponize a curse tablet at Mt. Ebal.
Already you have 3 uses of gematria outside of any Holy book.
1. For a shopping list.
2. For an aide memoire (as is common for oral traditions) for the ancient macrocosm, and
3. For magick. Fast forward to relatively recently and we see the Golden Dawn and the OTO using number magic too.
Take (for instance) the phrase: אחד ראש: אחדותו ראש ייחודותו: תמורתו אחד which means “One is His Beginning; one is His Individuality; His Permutation One!” and it sums to 777. It’s from the first verse of Liber Ararita by Aleister Crowley who explains that Ararita is a notariqon of it. It was taken by Crowley from the original GD 5=6 Hexagram ritual, and in the A.O. there is a 6=5 commentary in which the full words are uttered in Hebrew. Paul Foster Case also uses the phrases in his BOTA Hexagram ritual. Think also of the names recited during the Gnostic Creed:
χαος ΒΑΒΑΛΩΝ BAFOMITh θελημα = 777, and of the name of the initiatory arm of the OTO: the μυστιρια μυστικα μχιμα (The Mysteria Mystica Maxima). This is pure number magic. So there’s another use of gematria, and one that has a tradition that goes back over 3,300 years old.
4. There’s also the use of gematria in talismans. You know AGLA? The word used in the Lesser ritual of the Pentagram? Notariqon for אתה גבור לעולם אדני : “Thou O Lord art mighty forever.” It’s 900 with the biblical reversal cipher. It is said daily in the Gevurot, the second blessing of the Amidah, the central Jewish prayer. AGLA began appearing in magical writings in the late 12th Century according to Katelyn Mesler. It has been found in at least 31 runic inscriptions from the middle ages, where it was used as a talisman against fire, fever, and probably to guard against problems in childbirth, given that the number is associated with the Tsade whose theme in Genesis is childbirth.
5. Other uses, do you ask? How about hiding troop numbers? You don’t want to give outside countries even a rough idea of the size of your forces but you want your friends and your men to feel proud, ergo: gematria. That’s in the bible if you know where to look. That’s more like the traditional uses of cryptography: to hide information for political and security purposes.
6. More? Bach. Music! There have been a few books written about this. Bach was supposed to hide a number cipher in his music. That particular area hasn’t been researched much by me but I gather it has something to do with the Golden ratio.
7. And of course poetry. Using numerical ciphers with poetry was very popular in renaissance times, and relatively modern times too. I wrote a gematria poem a few months ago, and friends tell me of their gematria poetry. It’s thing.
8. In modern times there’s all the Holy Class A books written by Aleister Crowley that include gematria. It’s not like he just used it with the Book of the Law. It’s also in most of the Books of the New Testament, including the gospels because most of the writers of the NT were Hebrew and they transposed the Hebrew cipher over to Greek and used their formal system with it. Before that, Job, Ekekiel, Genesis, Exodus, Kings, etc, all books written with a formal system of math that revealed key themes that clarified the text, and it’s the reason for all the burning bushes and fiery chariots that ride into heaven and all that jazz. Of course it’s important for the qabalah (if you will) of texts and scrolls and books, but no – that’s never been the only thing.
9. Sometimes (in the bible) such hermeneutical techniques as gematria, notariqon and temurah are just used for saying rude things about people. For instance, the concubine of Éliphas is called תמנע Timna, which with the reversal cipher spells out פחזה Pachazah which means wantonness and the name of her son עמלק Amalek is a cipher of החטא haChet which means the sin.      
10. Having a laugh. Sometimes gematria is used for making (really bad) jokes. i.e. “And they said to him “Where is Sarah your woman?” And he said “Behold! In the tent!” Woman and tent both had set values of 111. I’d love to know what Miriam Anzovin would say about that one. J
Re: You cannot do English gematria with the Latin alphabet, but you can do Latin gematria with the English alphabet.
The Latin alphabet and the English alphabet are exactly the same alphabet. For sure, over time the Latin alphabet acquired more letters and it evolved, but it did so across Europe. It’s not a different alphabet.
Did you know that although Agrippa might have included letters for J, V and W, it took another 200+ years before the use of the extra letters caught on, and the standardization of the Latin (English) Alphabet that was put in motion by Henry VIII really took effect? When you list the English authors using Latin ciphers and put them in order against the other guys in Europe you can see things slowly shift. It’s more interesting to consider the evolution of the Latin writing script as a whole rather than isolating English examples of it. Most English renaissance writers who were using a cipher, and especially the ones in our list, were using a Latin cipher that was missing modern letters we use today. And for all these reasons, I argue for a revision of the Gematria page.
Bethsheba Ashe (talk) 05:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
TL;DR. You seem to be here to push your own WP:POV. That's not going to happen. Changes to articles require WP:CONSENSUS. Per our bold, revert, discuss process, any editor may revert you unless you have consensus. The status quo is maintained if you don't have consensus. The English section was here before you arrived, and it will remain so as long as you have no consensus for change (e.g. significantly more editors side with you on the topic). This page is for conversation, not long lectures to prove how erudite you are. I don't agree with you. Anyone who thinks that language is irrelevant to gematria is just plain wrong. You don't have consensus, and short, to the point, observations are way more convincing then your lecturing style. Don't waste my time with such long posts again. If your replies aren't short and conversational, directly responding to what I said, I won't even bother to read them. Who do you think you are, God's gift to Judaism? The idea that a gematria is no more than a cipher is the view of a minority of one: you. Your book isn't even due out until October. We don't give special treatment to "recognized experts" here, and even if we did, you're not one. So please don't respond with lectures about the results of your own personal original research. We can't use it here, even once you're published, because you are writing about your own discoveries. Until someone else writes about your research, your views aren't considered notable here. So quit telling me what you think. Tell me what the sources you propose to use say. I don't need and won't read your unsourced qabalistic reasoning. It carries no weight here. Skyerise (talk) 09:16, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
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