Talk:First Strike (1996 film)

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On 7 January 2020, it was proposed that this article be moved from Police Story 4: First Strike to First Strike (film). The result of the discussion was Page Moved.

Requested move 7 January 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved Celestina007 (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2020 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

Police Story 4: First Strike → First Strike (film) – WP:COMMONNAME. The most common titles are "First Strike" and "Jackie Chan's First Strike", with the former being the most popular. There is another film titled First Strike, but it is far less well known, so a hatnote will do, because this is the clear primary topic. 94.3.180.110 (talk) 17:35, 7 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 12:09, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving title to Jackie Chan's First Strike (with First Strike and Police Story 4: First Strike as its alternate titles) per WP:NCF; several movie reviews—EW, RogerEbert.com, Deseret News, Radio Times, The Guardian—as well as Rotten Tomatoes use that title to refer to the movie. You've gone incognito (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:19, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to First Strike (film). Appears to be commonly used, and possessives arguably shouldn't be part of titles anyway. "Jackie Chan's" was a promotional thing. 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:24A4:D645:E4B0:5EBE (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Nothing at WP:NCF (Wikipedia's guideline on naming conventions for film articles) says that possessives shouldn't be included in movie titles; in fact, movie titles with possessives have been in existence since time immemorial (e.g. Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, Tim and Eric's Billion Dollar Movie). And isn't the purpose of movie title to promote the movie? You've gone incognito (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:31, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - A promotional title is often slightly different to the actual title. And by possessives, I mean creatives, rather than character names from the movie like in your examples (albeit the second one is both). Marvel's The Avengers is a better example, as is Lee Daniels' The Butler. 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:24A4:D645:E4B0:5EBE (talk) 02:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yet the title with the possessive is still the common title as backed by reliable sources. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films, "If the film has been released under different titles within the English speaking world – if for example, some English-speaking countries prefer to use the native title, or if different translations are used in different countries – use the most common title throughout, and explain the other titles in the first or second sentence, putting each of them in bold." You've gone incognito (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Anyone can pick out a handful of reliable sources. When there are two commonly used titles, it's best to think of what might separate them. And promotional possessives should be avoided. Here are some counter reliable sources. https://www.timeout.com/london/film/first-strike https://bbfc.co.uk/releases/first-strike-1970 https://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Strike/dp/B00004D35T https://www.fareastfilms.com/?review_post_type=first-strike https://eppc.org/publications/first-strike-jackie-chans-first-strike/ https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dvd-first-strike-jackie-chan/3640506 https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1997/jan/10/first-strike-is-showcase-for-jackie-chans-talents/ http://www.thespinningimage.co.uk/cultfilms/displaycultfilm.asp?reviewid=6272 https://www.cinematografo.it/cinedatabase/film/first-strike/36844/ http://www.filmscouts.com/scripts/film.cfm?Film=fir-str 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:ED23:57B4:4537:2302 (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        So you cited 10 sources (some of which have dubious reliability). Very impressive. However, you seem to think I'm enforcing my argument as a numbers game, which I'm not. The sources I cited are considered reliable by Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources as well as Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Resources and editors ought to trust those. Besides, did you even bother to take a look at those sources you cited? I'm a bit concerned with some of it: Amazon UK may have a First Strike Blu-ray copy, but Amazon US has a Jackie Chan's First Strike Blu-ray [1]; EPPC titled its review First Strike but opens it by referring to the movie as Jackie Chan's First Strike; Barnes & Noble and Far East Films call the movie First Strike but illustrate it with a poster using the title Jackie Chan's First Strike. You've gone incognito (talk ⋅ contribs) 12:47, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Both titles are equally common in reliable sources, which my links are. So next you have to look at the pros and cons of either title. I've pointed out the con of using "Jackie Chan's..." - some sources use the possessive and others don't - just like Lee Daniels' The Butler. Jackie Chan is not a character in the movie - he's the actor. And alphabetically, the movie should be listed with titles beginning with F. Not J. Anyway, we've made our arguments and we're clearly not going to persuade each other. 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:ED23:57B4:4537:2302 (talk) 16:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any proposal (i.e. retain current title) - The sources used to support the proposal are Western publications emphasizing official Western release titles. Western sources like ScreenAnarchy and Beat are welcome, but too much weigh and emphasis on those sources would push sources from other regions aside undeservedly. =EPPC does not mention "Police Story" series, and Far East Films website is a self-identified "fan website". The Spinning Image is a self-published website. Amazon UK is a shopping site. Nevertheless, other Western reliable sources use the current title. One book says that the film is known in some Asian countries as Police Story IV: First Strike and other Asian countries as Police Story III Part 2(?). South China Morning Post (from Hong Kong) uses also the current title. AV Club emphasizes on the current title more than the proposal one despite using both. Gamespot and Medium.com use the current title. One journal article uses romanized Cantonese title (and English titles) for this film. The Week (Indonesia) uses also the current title; it doesn't separate both halves of the title. Neither does Global Times (from China). George Ho (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is clear that in reliable English language sources, "First Strike" and "Jackie Chan's First Strike" are by far the most common titles. I'm sure your personal preference will be taken into account, though. 2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:399C:E35B:C026:BE7C (talk) 10:30, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The nominator's IP (94.3.180.110 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)), yours (2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:399C:E35B:C026:BE7C (talk · contribs · WHOIS)), and another account's (2A02:C7F:6E64:1C00:1950:AE3:4007:98A5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)) are detected by one of WHOIS tools to be located in the same location. Also, those edits seem to be primarily interested in editing pages about Jackie Chan movies. Aren't they coincidences? George Ho (talk) 14:58, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@George Ho: WP:NCF and WP:EN have made it clear that articles about foreign subjects (or in this case a foreign film) should be titled by the name used in the English-speaking world (US, UK, etc.), and that title is Jackie Chan's First Strike. You've gone incognito (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think more weight should be given to more recent (and undated?) sources using either titles, especially by narrowing down the search results:

Jackie Chan's First Strike: BBFC, DoBlu, LA Times, one book

First Strike: Silver Emulsion, SlashFilm, Commercial Real Estate, Beat mag, Film School Rejects, Sydney Morning Herald, TV Over Mind, Forbes, NPR, one book (though also using alternative titles, which it subsides), another book

Police Story 4: First Strike (or Police Story 4): SCMP, AV Club, Gamespot, Medium.com, Cinema Blend, one Sunshine Coast Daily article requiring subscription, SBS (Australia), TheInnerSane, Inverse, Looper,

Den of Geek uses both the current title and First Strike and seems to use "First Strike" more often but also uses the full title as section header. IMO, that should count as using the full title; I think the writer was using the shorter title to save more writing time.

I hate to say this, but "Jackie Chan's First Strike" has been less used recently than two other titles, like "Police Story 4". "First Strike" may have been commonly used recently, but then I'm unsure whether "(1996 film)" is more desirable than the currently used natural disambiguation. If you have evidence contradicting what I stand by, then please give me other reliable sources saying otherwise. Shopping or streaming sites don't count, IMHO. George Ho (talk) 16:55, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Celestina007: May you please give rationale for the move? Thanks. George Ho (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

George Ho, hello Gerorge, i trust all is well & good for you. Now to answer your question it appeared as though the consensus & rationale to move the title to First Strike (film) out weighed those who wanted it to retain its current title. Despite the discussion being Relisted it appeared as though only one individual wanted it to retain its current title & I didn’t just do a head count per se but always viewed the rationale for both the supporting side & opposing side. Finally it appeared as though the discussion had gone semi inactive as the last rationale provided was on the 23rd of January (7 days ago) for a discussion that has lasted for 23 days I believed it was time to take the appropriate action hence I moved the page accordingly according to the request made. Have I answered your question?. Celestina007 (talk) 20:36, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Well, I'll leave the outcome as-is then. BTW, I created the page of the former title as the redirect. George Ho (talk) 20:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

George Ho oh! okay then. Do have a nice day ahead.Celestina007 (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]