Jump to content

Talk:Felix Dzerzhinsky/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Old talk

  • Belarus continues to call its intelligence service the KGB.

I removed this phrase as not belonging here. I think I've seen it in a more relevant article, but just in case I'm copying it to talk. Mikkalai 17:46, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Birth-place and family

Born in Belarusian nobility family (dont bourgeois Polish family) in manor Dziaržynava. W.V.-S. 23:12, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Exactly

Exactly! Those strange Polish nationalists keep inserting misinformation.

  1. First of all, he never said he was Polish. He was from Belarus nobles (szlachta).
  2. Second, please stop screwing up with the birth location. For the last time:

--rydel 23:53, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is not all posish nationalists (what a strange kind of nationalism it would be). At least in one place it was me who restored some information from previous versions which looked like it was lost during some massive editing. Don't panic, just do what you did: write an explanation in the talk page. Mikkalai 22:41, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

People assume that Kojdanava, because of its current name, was closest to his hometown but the reason for Kojdanava being renamed after Dzerzhinsky and not Ivaniets is that Ivaniets was Polish between 1920-1939. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlefatboy (talk • contribs) 07:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Polish or Belarusian?

I'm lost with these edits. Was he Polish or Belorussian ? (what's the difference anyway ?) Lysy 20:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I said, it's a hard question, probably both, but many Belarusians don't want him. ;) Here's my serious attempt to answer that: Talk:Ignacy Domeyko. --rydel 00:15, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little puzzled by edits of Mikkalai who changes his nationality from Polish to Belarusian and back. Generally, I agree that notion of nationality in these times was different to what we think today. Dzerzhinsky is certainly not the person to be proud of but I think that many people in Poland at least believe he was of Polish origin. But take him if you wish ;-) Lysy 05:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sadly, he was Polish. Don't forget the borders were different back them. He was born to a Polish family in a village that was part of the Russian Empire back then. Before that, it was part of the Commonwealth of Poland. So yes, he was of Polish ethnicity. His father was Jewish, but a Pole too.

It's just like woth Wayne Gretzky's grandfather. His ethnicity was Polish, but he was born in a village that now is part of Belarus.

Norum 15.Nov.2006 20:04 EST

And what is so "sad" about being Polish? --Ghirla -трёп- 09:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The sad is being Jew chosen to hide as Polak — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.197.3.88 (talk) 12:51, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I think he or she meant that it was sad that the Polish must claim Dzerzhinsky, not that being Polish is sad. Ştefan 09:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Dzerhinsky's father was of Jewish origin, and his mother was of Polish origin, according to official (soviet era) and/or unofficial biographies- i forget which. He was born on the territory of the current Republic of Belarus. His family spoke Polish, and when he was 7 years old, he also learned Russia. He also knew some yiddish/Hebrew. According to some online info about the Jewish history of the nearby town of Ivenetz, local Christians were also able to speak Yiddish. Dzerzhinsky was a Catholic himself. Feliks father falsify nobility. All family were Jewish.

Various biographies show that he was influenced to become a revolutionary by his mother's stories of repression against Poles and peasants in Russia. He was toughened and was nicknamed "Iron Felix" because of his stays in harsh prisons and then exile in Sibera.

Rako.

So, to put it all together, if he was Catholic (and I'm sure he was, since he got married in St. Nicholas church in Kraków), spoke Polish, and was a nobleman, then it hardly makes him a Belarussian, does it? He was a Pole, born in what is now Belarus. – Kpalion (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


some say he lerned Yidish at the age of 2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.197.3.88 (talk) 12:31, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Birth-place of the "Iron Felix"

Well, Felix was born when Big Russians ruled former Kingdom of Poland. Where is his home estate? Here are some facts up to 17.09.1939.

  • There was only an railway station named Kojdanovo along Moscow - Brest Railway located just 36.3 kilometres south-west of Minsk and a tiny village around it. His birth-place seems to be 25 kilometres north-west from Kojdanovo on the area where a hill rises 341 metres above sea level.
  • Only place nearby, worth of mentioning in maps, was (with their Polish name) Glushtshintzy, just north-east in great water shed which divides three rives to flow to Black Sea (one), and

(two) to Baltic Sea; named Ussa and Sula, both tributaries of River Nemunas on its upper course. This area was divided between Minsk Province and Vistula provinces.

  • In Treaty of Riga new border between Soviet Russia and Republic of Poland was drawn from River Wilja southward east of villages Tokary, Radoszkowice, Rakow, and Wolma to the hill top 341 metre,

sources of River Sula, Rubiezcewice, east of railway station Stolpce (PKP border station), to Nowo Swierzej. Little bigger villages like Kamien, and Iwienc were in Polish side of the border. The largest settlement was Koidanow inside the Soviet Russia as mentioned, 10.3 kilometres east of Negorelje railway station (NKPS border station). Vilja, Sula, Tokkari (Tokary), and Ussa are not Russian names, but pure Finnish names. These places seems to have had many Finnish tribe Inkerikot inhabitants which escaped from Karelian Isthmus in 1650s to Russia due their Greek Carholic religion and ended in this area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.190.202 (talk) 15:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Atrocities?

Might be useful to include a sentence or two on the number of Russians who perished at the hands of the Cheka while Felix was its director. -- Flask 10:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this man seems scary, did he do any particularly scary things someone saw fit to omit from this entry? Mathiastck 18:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Sure, for example, numbers of orphaned homeless children in post-war Russia dropped drasically while Felix was a head of "Detkomissia" (a governmental body responsible kids welfare). There's no doubt that the scary man just ate the poor street kids! 95.32.202.80 (talk) 05:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Orël

I don't know squat about Comrade Dzerzhinsky, but I have a photo of a statue of him (seated) taken recently in Orël (Oryol), Russia, if anyone's interested. It would be interesting to know why it's still there. Sca 22:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

And why it should not be? There is another statue just in front of my house. --Ghirla -трёп- 06:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Er, he's not exactly a hero these days, is he? Can you imagine the outcry if some German town had a statue of Himmler?

Sca 16:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Full name in the title

Is there any reason why we have his full name including patronymic in the title? The standard is <given name> <surname> unless there's a need to disambiguate. I'm inclined to move it to "Felix Dzerzhinsky". Any objections? -- JackofOz 13:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I see that back on 29 February 2004, Kwertii moved it, then 4 minutes later moved it back, with the edit summary "redir to Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky, which google says is more common". I'm not sure that's a valid distinction. If he had been known as Felix Smith in some contexts and Felix Dzerzhinsky in others, then whichever was more common would govern our article title. But this is just about whether his middle name (patronymic) is part of the title or not. He's generally referred to in encyclopedias as simply Felix Dzerzhinsky, and the details of his patronymic etc are revealed in the text of the article.
However, I've just tried to move it to "Felix Dzerzhinsky" and found the system won't let me, because it already had that name once before. This is a bit of a problem: it could allow vandalised names to remain. It seems to mean that, for example, if it had been originally "Felix Dzerzhinsky", and some vandal moved it to "Egbert Dzerzhinsky", we couldn't get it back to "Felix Dzerzhinsky" because that name had been used once before. Any thoughts? -- JackofOz (talk) 02:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The reason you couldn't move it back was because the target destination was a redirect with more than one edit in it's history, which requires an admin to delete the redirect first. If anyone here is still interested in moving the page back to Felix Dzerzhinsky (with which I agree), I can move it back over the redirect. Thoughts? Parsecboy (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It's been nearly 2 weeks after my previous comment, and no reply, so I have moved the page. If anyone disagrees, please start a discussion here, and perhaps list it at WP:RM for wider attention. Parsecboy (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I missed your earlier comment, but naturally I had no objections. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Belarussian not Polish

Belarussian historians made extensive research and determined that he was Belarussian, and his family claimed to be Poles to be respected.--Molobo (talk) 05:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC) yeah sure, and I see that "you have a proof as well"....lol Norum (talk) 02:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Human rights abuse

How allegations of human rights abuse applicable to such a distant time? Was Napoleon human rights violator? Was Julius Caesar human rights violator? Was Hammurabbi human rights violator? There were no conventions for human rights that time, so nobody could violate them.--Dojarca (talk) 15:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

How about A.Hitler then? The "conventions" were mostly set after WW2, no? Following your logic he belongs to this righteous little list of yours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.229.191.3 (talk) 23:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the concept of basic human rights goes back to Sumeria, see History of human rights. Yes, it was expanded and extensively codified for international standards after WWII, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist in 1939. Parsecboy (talk) 14:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Felix Edmond´s son Jierzcynski

He was a Polish (Polaki) born in in area known also as White Ruthenia.(Bielarutenia) which was later known as Bielarus. This was also under Big Russian adminstration so called Pale area, which become part of Russian Empire with its whole Jewish population during the partitiation of Kingdom of Poland done together by Imperial Russia, Austria, and Prussia. The language spoked in this area (known also Wolhynia) was nearer to Polish language than Russian language spoked in Moskva (originally Moskova). Also Jiddish language fluorished in these areas. The old texts show these areas usually as Wolhynia, Polessia, Galitzia (Haliczia), and Podolia. Oriel or Orjol or Orel? Mensk or Minsk?, Smoliensk or Smolensk? Vilnius or Wilno or Vilna? The Big Russian names are the latecomers, introduced only when the areas fell under (Moskova) Romanoff dynasty domination, an Big Russian land hungry expanding policy followed by the Romanoffs. (Old way of writing the name Romanov, still used in Finland along with Romanov. Both are correct forms. When the school education in Imperial Russia was what it was (66 per cent of women and 42 per cent of men could not read or write as late as in 1917), the naming of places was taken to equivalent to write them in Kyrillic letters which do not suit to many minority languages, spoked in Imperial Russia, at all. These figures are offical ones, published by the Bolsheviks, themselves. If one wants to know which nationaly Felix Edmond´s son Jierzcynski was it is shown in (one and only) registeration of population made in 1897. One interesting point I have found out in these pages of English Wikipedia, is the expanding numbers of Big Russians as editors of these pages. They cannot write the real history because they have never been able to learn real history of Russia thanks to Iosif Dzhukasvili´s machined school reform in 1929, and confirmed again by Vladimir Putin in 2003, which rewrote the whole Russian history. Also many young American Jews try to expand the Jewish influence even to the areas where they were not allowed to live at all under (Imperial) Russian laws. Under Jus Magdeburgicum Boleslas the Pious granted the Jews in 1264, and extended by Casimir the Great in 1334, to settle in Poland. The Jews soon spread through Kurland, Lithuania, and the Ukraina, so that there were in 1770 number of Jews living in Poland and on the Russian frontier, the prohibitive policy of that country making any movement across the Polish / Russian border impossible. The Russian law of 1789 gave the Jews right to live in certain provinces, but in 1792 the great change took place. In first partition of Poland gave Russia White Russia and part of Lithuania; the second in 1793, and the third in 1795, added the ten Vistula provinces, and, in annexing this land, Russia obtained at least a half of entire Jewish race as subjects. The Russian census of 1897 gave the (registered) total number of Jews as 5.215.805. If Felix Jierzcynski was among them must be digged out of old Russian archives made estate after estate, village after village, and town after town a real Prussian way. The Jews were allowed to live in Pale areas including;

  • Kingdom of Poland: the provinces of Warsaw, Kalish, Kielce, Lomzha, Liublin, Piortkov, Plotsk, Radom, Souvalki, and Sieldce.
  • In Lithuania: the provinces of Vilna (Vilnius), Kovno (Kaunas), and Grodno (Gardinas).
  • In White Russia: the Minsk, Vitiebsk, and Mohiliev.
  • In south-western Russia: provinces of Volhynia, Podolia, Kiev (except the city of Kiev), Tchernigov, and Poltava.
  • in New Russia: the provinces of Bessarabia, Herson, Jekaterinoslav, and Taurida (except the town of Jalta).

In addition it could be mentioned that NKPS named one steam locomotive serie after Feliks Dzherzhinskij. The locomotives in question were heavy freight locomotives FD (1E1-h) of which 3222 were built in 1931 - 1942. Its passenger train verion (1D2-h2), serie IS (Iosif Stalin), was reclassified in serie FDp (Feliks Dzherzhinskij passenger). Typical way in Soviet Union. Total 3877 steam locomotives named after the first chief of Cheka.

Just to show how nicely the language and history is changed, here is an example why this old history is openly preserved in certain place then forming one part of Russian Empire. The text of this Imperial Ukaza is shown in Finnish language and the free transliteration to English language is mine following word to word text of Russian text offically transliterated from Russian language in Swedish and Finnish languages.

  • Me, Aleksanteri, Suomen Suuriruhtinas ja Jumalan armosta koko Ryzsänmaan valtias määrämme jokaisesta painetusta tuotteesta koko Ryzsänmaalla lähetettäväksi vapaasti kopoin Helsinkiin Aleksanterin Yliopistoon.
  • We, Alexander, The Grand Duke of Finland and of Lord´s Will Absolute Ruler all over Ryzsänland order that from each printing published all over the Ryzsänland must be send free copy to Alexander University in Gelsingfors (Helsingfors / Helsinki).

I suppose the original ones are in Moskova behind closed doors in some archive there, but available free in Helsinki. Thus, part of the material is still preserved in Finland. Some of the collections have been over the times destroyed in fires, bombings etc but still forms the second large collection of Imperial Russia in the world, and the largest one outside Ryzsänmaa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.190.202 (talk) 04:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Nationality

The article states that "....his statues were removed due to his unpopularity with the Polish people, in spite of his Polish nationality." When he was born the area belonged to the Russian Empire and therefore he could not have Polish nationality. Ethnically he was a Pole, but was not a Polish national. And where does it say that he obtain Polish citizenship after Poland regained its independence in 1918? I doubt that he would have done so, considering that he was a hardcore commie and was working in Moscow and Poland was on the other side of the political spectrum. Norum (talk) 02:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

So perhaps "Polish ethnicity" would be better? Moonraker2 (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I think "of Polish origins" would be better, as there's no consensus whether Polish ethnicity exists at all (not according to the Polish constitution anyway).
It seems strange to call him "Polish communist revolutionary" in the lead though. He might have been Polish, but whatever revolution he took part in didn't occur in Poland. We say that Kościuszko was a "Polish-American hero" - he wasn't American of course, and ethnically he was Belarusian, but he fought for Poland and the USA. We don't claim that Dostoyevsky was a Polish writer. Even though his father was Polish Dostoyevsky became a part of Russian literature. There's a difference between being Polish and being "Polish something". --85.222.86.36 (talk) 04:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Father's ancestry

Why is it that the English article is the only one that talks about Edmund's Jewish origins? He is said to have belonged to the Samson clan of the szlachta, which "had many families of mixed Polish-Jewish origin". The same is said in the English article about the Samson clan itself. The problem is, nothing of the sort is said in the Polish article (which I think is the most reliable in this matter). There, Edmund's clan is given not as Samson, but as Sulima. Moreover, if you look at the Polish articles about both clans, they say nothing whatsoever about any Jewish ancestry of their families. So, in the Polish Wiki there is nothing about any Jewish origins of Edmund, nor there is anything about Jewish origins of the Samson and Sulima clans. The question is, why would anyone bother to put this (unsourced, as far as I could see) information in the English articles? Maybe it's very important for someone to propagate their belief that all early Bolsheviks were "Jews"? Please, could you consider changing all mentioned facts so as to comply with the Polish article? I would have done it myself, but it would be quite a significant edit for an outsider. Thank you in advance. 94.73.34.192 (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, I changed the article myself. The mere fact that editor 173.48.248.15 obviously doesn't like Dzerzhinsky, is not a sufficient evidence that the man had a Jewish ancestry. This is a clear attempt to make him as un-Polish as possible, and probably to propagate the fable about all early Bolsheks being "Jews". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.73.34.192 (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, the last is actually not a fable, but pretty well investigated and known. --41.151.46.203 (talk) 06:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Father's ancestry note

@ 94.73.34.192 Please note that the claim that Dzerzhinsky's father was in-part jewish is not an anti-semitic fabrication. In fact many high ranking Bolsheviks were of jewish background. Lenin and Stalin themselves were part jewish. In Stalin's case his father was a non-practicing jew. His real name was Jughashvili which can be translated as "Jewish Son"... (suffix "villi" being son, and "Jughash" meaning Jewish in the Georgian language). The name Stalin was a nickname which was adopted by Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili to hide his jewish origins. So, to be clear on Dzerzhinsky. He was Polish and in-part jewish, and it is not anti-semitic to state that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.248.15 (talk) 03:04, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Utter bollicxs. You are making logical leaps for a start. Ceoil 14:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Dzerzhinsky ancestry.

@ Ceoil. My comment to you is this... why is the fact that Dzerzhinsky or Stalin part jewish "non-sense" to you. I am fully aware that there is an effort to try and remove such uncomfortable facts from the open dialogue, and that's why I have to defend this position.

I'll give you a great example of another polish individual who has jewish roots... and that is the former Polish President Lech Kaczyński. Yes, his ancestral name was Kalkstein later changed to Kaczyński. This fact is not very well known to the general public, and Kaczyński himself tried to keep a low profile on this matter though never denying it. But, just because name changes occur and the person in question does not identify with his ancestry does not negate the fact that they are who they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.248.15 (talk) 01:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

The reason why I reverted the edits of my fellow contributor Alex Bakharev is because of major discrepancies in that version of Felix Dzerzhinsky's early life, and that any mention of Felix Dzerzhinsky's jewish ancestry and how they came to live in Dziarzhynava estate was deleted. Listed below are some of the questionable claims and inconsistencies:

1. Father's death and timing. In the Polish wiki entry for Edmund Rufin Dzierżyński (Felix's father), it states that he died after moving to the Dziarzhynava estate. But, in the last edit of the English wiki page contributor Alex Bakharev stated that the family moved to the estate after the death of the father Edmund Rufin.

2. Father's profession. Contributor Alex Bakharev's last edit states that Edmund Rufin Dzierżyński was a physics teacher. But, if Felix Dzerzhinsky's family was of Polish nobility this would have been a very unusual professional choice given the family background.

Now, please note other discrepancies in regards to Felix Dzerzhinsky's early life that point to the fact that he may have fabricated some claims to hide his true identity and now those claims are simply taken at face value. So, please note the glaring inconsistencies on other wiki pages regarding Felix Dzerzhinsky, and other outside sources that cover the subject.

1. The English page of Felix Dzerzhinsky states that his family was of the Samson coat of arms, but the Polish version states that the family was of Sulima coat of arms.

2. There are questions about the exact birth date of Felix Dzerzhinsky. One is September 11th, and the other is August 30th.

3. Also, some practical questions arise about young Felix Dzerzhinsky. For example: would a Polish szlachta (noble) family have their son learn Yiddish, or why would a young Felix Dzerzhinsky (a Polish Noble) get engaged to Julia Goldman (a young jewish woman).

All this raises some major questions as to who really was Felix Dzerzhinsky. If he was of noble birth, then why all the discrepancies. This can only point to one fact that the he was indeed of Jewish ansestry, and to hide is true identity he made-up his childhood story. (A common practice, since during the time of the Russian Empire Jews were discriminated against and the only way to get around was to hide someone's true background). But regardless of the past, such facts need to be openly addressed and not covered up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enixn (talk • contribs) 16:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Please take your time and revisit the points that are stated above. If English is your second language and you are having trouble understanding some of the comments written above than please refrain from editing wiki pages written in this language, as it appears that you might have misunderstood what was being said and missed the point in your response. Your edits Alex Bakharev are simply inaccurate and unreliable that is why they are being reverted. Enixn (talk • contribs) 19:06, 27 July 2011

Enixn, original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. You are deleting things on one Wiki article because another wiki article says something else. The articles themselves do not matter- only the sources. So what do the sources say? Do they conflict? Moreover, why you have Jew listed as a nationality is beyond me. That was added as vandalism by another guy... It was Russian that occurred. Please change it back. snaphat (talk) 03:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

POV statements

The agency became notorious for torture and mass summary executions, performed especially during the Red Terror and the Russian Civil War

This is a problematic statement that does not belong in the lead. It is not specified among whom the Cheka is seen as "notorious". Instead, there is an attempt to state opinions as facts. As a demonstration of how this violates NPOV policy, generations of Russian politicians and historians (PG Sofinov, V.P. Portnov, etc) have depicted the Cheka as upholding the law and order, efficient, courageous, exposing conspiracies, guarding the borders, and helping orphans. Several big Russian movies have depicted Cheka in these terms, such as with "White Sun of the Desert" The citing of Gellately on this article is frankly puzzling because he has done no research about on this topic. While Cheka may be called "notorious" by some, it is viewed favorably by others, which makes the sentences inappropriate for the lead.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.80.110.125 (talk • contribs)

The above statement appears to be made by the same person who has inserted copious references from a dubious biography (published in Moscow in 1988!) which paints Dzerzhinsky as a kindly neighbourhood policemen. Given Cheka's role as Lenin's main arm of internal enforcement, and Lenin's well-documented enthusiasm for terror as a tool of control (check the Lenin page for discussion), stuff like the following:

'During the Left SR-led revolt in Moscow in July 1918, Dzerzhinsky was captured by the rebels as he went to the rebels' headquarters. He did not show fear and berated his captors. The news of this provoked indignation among Russians, with meetings held at factories demanding that Dzerzhinsky and other captured Bolsheviks be set free.'

comes across as egregrious pro-Soviet propaganda - the last sentence in particular reads like a Pravda excerpt. Given the historical importance of figures like Dzerzhinsky as instruments of terror - he was the forerunner of Yagoda, Yezhov, and Beria after all - it would be good if his page reflected a full historical appreciation of his role, instead of being hijacked by a Russian apologist who views 'human rights' as a post-1945 fad, and groups of squabbling Belorussian and Polish nationalists obsessed with disputing the birth place of Dzerzhinsky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.35.86 (talk) 09:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of strongly sourced information

76.232.252.124 thank you for your contributions. I wondered why you deleted referenced text and the references which come from reliable sources. Thank you. Span (talk) 19:05, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

The previous version of the article engages in unneeded editorializing by accusing the person of "torture and mass summary executions". The sources cited are not reliable, but include a self-published book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.232.252.124 (talk) 19:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
The references in question are:
  • Robert Gellately. Lenin, Stalin and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe. Knopf (Random House) 2007. ISBN 1-4000-4005-1 pp. 46-48
  • George Leggett, The Cheka: Lenin’s Political Police. Oxford University Press, 1987, ISBN 0-19-822862-7 pp. 197-201
  • Orlando Figes. A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution 1891 — 1924. Penguin Books, 1997 ISBN 0-19-822862-7 p. 647</ref>
  • The Road to Revolution BBC, November 7, 1997
  • J. Michael Waller Secret Empire: The KGB in Russia Today., Westview Press. Boulder, CO., 1994., ISBN 0-8133-2323-1 (An academic press)
Oxford University Press, the BBC, Penguin Books and the like are the strongest type of reliable source possible. Recounting incidents of torture and executions can be factual, devoid of all editorial comment. Work published by Random House and Oxford University press says these events happened. Span (talk) 19:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
The biography that is being used to replace work from Penguin, OUP etc, aside from not being credited with an author or an ISBN, seems strongly POV. I challenge this as a usable source re WP:NPOV. Plus no explanation is given for deleting work and refs from main stream presses. Span (talk) 23:34, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Penguin Books, BBC, Knopf are not academic presses that engage peer review of their works. BBC is not any kind of research institution on history, it's just a broadcaster aimed at a popular audience. Gellately's book is not about Dzerzhinsky, but is mostly about the 1930s and 1940s. Figes' book is not about Dzerzhinsky, but is a general overview of Russian history from ca. 1890-1920. The biography about Dzerzhinsky that I cited, however, was written by top academics in Russia, and is by far the most comprehensive source that exists in the English language about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.232.252.124 (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Totally agree with Spanglej. Since Wikipedia is not state-controlled, we must also be serious about the information. While the biography is in Russian, which was possibly wrote by biased editors, the listed content has very strong references. I think, the anonymous editor has an agenda as he just don't want to see any critical comments about Communism and thus wants to censor those parts.--GoPTCN 07:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The IP editor is a sock puppet of banned user Jacob Peters. You're wasting your time trying to reason with him here. Just revert per WP:BANNED.VolunteerMarek 23:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Does anyone know the credentials of George Leggett? I've seen his work cited here, but the one book I am aware of that he wrote on the topic (that I read) was pretty bad, and has received bad reviews as to its method and sourcing for the claims, i.e. inflated numbers of deaths that consist primarily of Russian emigrant agitprop published in hostile countries during the 1920s and 1930s; even the fictitious propaganda of the Denikin regime is often cited without the slightest skepticism in this work. I'm wondering if anyone has reviewed the credentials of this author? Yes, it is a university press, so I assume he is a professor, but is this his area of specialty, and is his work respected within the field? 24.5.69.164 (talk) 18:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The "Iron Felix"

The paragraph should be rewritten and renamed:

Wrong proportions

Felix Dzerzhinsky is known mostly as the Director of Cheka, the responing paragraph is however very short. It doesn't also inform about FD's participation in Polish-Bolshevik war. Xx236 (talk) 08:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Problematic sources

  • There is a new biography in Polish, pobably much better than the quoted 1984 book by Robert Blobaum.
  • I don't see any serious source regarding his Cheka work.Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

birth_name=Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky ?

If the birth was registered in RC book I would rather expect a Polish name. Are there any proves that the Russian empire named the baby "Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky"?Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Why do we keep brining up these same old issues, at this point they ought to be settled. Dzerzhinsky was born in the Russian Empire; any official document would have used Russian as its language, and the use of Polish for any official business was forbidden and very much illegal. The region that he was born and lived in, was not even part of the autonomous Congress of Poland; it was Russia proper. Also, he never lived in the Second Polish Republic. Yes, Dzerzhinsky had Polish ancestry, but was he was a subject of the Russian Empire, and then made the personal choice to remain in Bolshevik Russia. --89.64.208.222 (talk) 06:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Did the Roman Catholic church use Russian language in its registers in Russia? The Russian Empire didn't register babies. Do you mean that "Name at birth" is a name given by the Empire later, eg. at school? Xx236 (talk) 09:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Compare: Joseph Stalin, Иосиф Сталин (Russian), იოსებ სტალინი (Georgian). Young Felix was Polish exactly like young Joseph was Georgian.Xx236 (talk) 09:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, that may very well be the case, and on the page there is the Polish version of the name Feliks Dzierżyński (Polish) in the introductory paragraph. Also, to answer you question about his name later in life; that is exactly correct, even if Dzerzhinsky was listed in the RC registry; in every other situation he would have used the Russian version of his name. After the January Uprising in 1863 the Congress of Poland lost all of its autonomy (and Felix was not even born there). The use of the Polish language was unauthorized in any official setting, and a Russification campaign mandated. All positions of authority in local governments, schools, and universities were held by ethnic Russians who ensured that the Tsar's orders were followed. --89.64.208.222 (talk) 15:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Mass Murderer

"The Cheka soon became notorious for torture and mass summary executions." That makes Mr. Dzezhinsky a mass murderer as well, correct? According to Western law standards also valid _at that time_. Why do we praise mass murderes as revolutionaries??? Applies more or less to the whole Soviet "government" at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felixkrull (talk • contribs) 22:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

becose is to be managed to covard his real ancestry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.197.3.88 (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Prime Minister of France about Felix

Edouard Herriot: "The gold of all the thrones of the world could not deflect Dzerzhinsky from the pre-designed aim. In the face of his moral purity at times even his irreconcilable enemies bow their heads."

Many of us, in Russia, treat with great reverence to Felix Edmundovich. He did a lot of good for our country and our people. "Iron Felix" Statue should be returned to the Lubyanka. So be it! Алессия (talk) 18:47, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Felix_Dzerzhinsky/Archive_1&oldid=1136722855"