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Archive 1

No-spoiler summary

I've heard many good things about this game and consider buying it. I'd be happy if someone could write a short summary of the background story of the game, and a summary of the plot that would not include any spoilers. I suggest this summary be put before the "Storyline" section, which does have spoilers. Thanks, Tamuz (Talk) 12:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For Fallout 1, you can read this, for Fallout 2 you can read this. Those sites are mirrors of the official websites before Interplay went bankrupt. --Voidvector 15:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
remove external link, FIFE is a game engine modelled after the Fallout game engine. There are hundreds of game engines modelled after Quake and they are not mentioned on Quake page.--Voidvector 13:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a link to the FIFE website and it gets constantly removed here. FIFE is an open source Fallout-like engine and supports loading Fallout 1 DAT archives, Fallout 2 DAT archives, Fallout maps, Fallout gfx & Fallout sounds. I took a look at other game articles (especially RPGs, because Fallout is one). For the infinity engine games there is a seperate article and this article features a link to GemRB: see Infinity_Engine. As the Fallout engine was just used for Fallout 1 + 2 there is no Fallout engine article so IHMO the FIFE link belongs to the Fallout game article.

I took a look at the Ultima games article and there are listed all kind of open source Ultima engines even such that been registered at sourceforge for years but never released anything. So on side the Ultima article lists even Ultima engine projects that never did a release and prolly never will do any but for the Fallout article it's not allowed to link to the only Fallout-like engine in active development.

For your argument about Quake engines: the Quake article lists engine mods, see here: Quake#Replacement_Quake.2FQuakeWorld_Engines

So finally my point is:

  1. FIFE is the only Fallout-like engine in active development
  2. It is in a stage where you can use Fallout maps, archives, gfx & sounds with it
  3. FIFE was created for the Fallout modders to give them a better engine to develope mods on
  4. Other game articles feature open source version of their engines too. You can argue that not all open source engines are listed there but the important ones are. So is FIFE important? Yes. Why? See point 1.

I would like to hear the opinion of other wiki-people how alternative game engines should be handled in game articles. If the FIFE link gets removed I guess this is a general policy. In this case all alternative game engine links should be removed. E.g. the ones from the above linked Ultima article.

MvBarracuda 10:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I have repeatedly removed those links from this page and other Fallout pages, for the following reasons.

Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Wikipedia:Featured article.

  • fifengine.de is not about the game, it is about a game engine.
  • Last I checked the engine can load Fallout art, but cannot load the game itself in full.
  • There is no useful or encylopedic information relevant to Fallout.
  • Unlike some articles mentioned in prior discussions, this article does not have a mod section (I would support the link as cite if there were a section with history of Fallout mods). Also, none of the mentioned articles are featured articles.
  • As far as I can tell, linking to fifengine.de only serves to promote the site. This statement is also supported by the fact that you are in fact on the development team of this project. (see Wikipedia:Spam#External_link_spamming)
For more info see WP:EL. I will continue oppose its addition in its current form.

--Voidvector 13:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

  • FIFE is a game engine with Fallout support. In fact it's the only engine with Fallout asset support that is in active development. FIFE is meant to become a basis for Fallout mods and we plan to offer conversion tools to be able to convert Fallout mods into FIFE mods. So it belongs into the Fallout article IMHO as it's relevant for people who search information about Fallout.
  • The statement that it can't load the full game is quite funny. Even GemRB can't load whole Infinity engine games and let you play them through with all details. Open source is work in progress and it's quite normal that things evolve. It just means that you're not able to fully replay Fallout with FIFE ATM, and that's likely to change in the future.
  • About the useful encyclopedic information: please let me know why the Ultima article features planned Ultima open source engines that never released a single file and you consider that encyclopedic relevant; while the only engine that supports loading Fallout assets is not relevant for the Fallout article.
  • IMHO an open source version of an engine can be considered important information. If you really feel that isn't unimportant, please be fair and remove the links from other game-related articles too.
  • I'm sorry that I didn't state that I'm the project manager of FIFE; this is totally true. The link serves to promote open source software and as we're non-profit I don't really get your point. We don't make money with the engine nor with the website. In fact we even pay every month for the hosting so there is no financial reason behind adding the link. I simply added it because IMHO FIFE is as important as Exult & Pentragram for the Ultima series and GemRB for the Infinity Engine games.

--MvBarracuda 00:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I know about FIFE for sometime now. I visit NMA a few times a month. I know it's current usefulness; it's more geared towards mod makers. However, that usefulness doesn't fit in the context of this article.

There are thousands of projects on sf.net with relevance to thousands of articles on WP, and there is no reason to link them as Wikipedia is not a directory for open source projects.

The reason I state that it can't load in full is because a normal person who come look for Fallout information would have no use for FIFE, only players. In fact, it is only useful to small sections of players -- modders and mod players.

The Ultima engines should be removed from their respective articles because those engines are no longer maintained and relevant. I normally remove them when I see them. I don't visit those articles because I have never played those games.

It's fairly unproductive to write paragraphs after paragraphs over whether to include one external link. When I get back to my country, I would look into Fallout mod history, see if I can include it as a section. --10:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Several changes

I've made several changes to the article:

  • Removed all references to other Fallout games in the part about well-known actors (this article is about the first one).
  • Corrected a few typos and improved a few phrases.
  • Removed the Intro Sequences section. Sorry, but it wasn't encyclopedic.
  • Renamed the Influences section to Influences and References.
  • Moved a part of the Game Locations section to the Influences and References section and the rest to the Trivia section.
  • Updated the Game Locations section with details about some of the game's locations (...surprising, eh?). They are very very simple, and, if possible, I'd like someone to improve them. I will also try to, later. I know the quest descriptions probably should not be there - they're as a filler.
  • Improved the Storyline section first paragraph (hopefully) and moved the spoiler tag down.

Please contribute. Let's make of this a featured article! :D --Akhel 22:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I would love to see this become a featured article. I have been editting this as much as possible. Juror 8 02:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. : ) I just changed the texts of almost every game location; I got most information from The Vault wiki, but I'm not sure about how to put it on the references section. I'd be grateful if someone could help me.
Also, maybe we should blend the game locations section with the story section? --Akhel 02:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Plan: add a section on NPCs

This would be a good way to expand the content of the article. I'd write it myself but I wouldn't know how to. Reasonable doubt1 01:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

At the moment this article's format and style looks very sloppy and will never advance in its class if it remains the way it is. I've read the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games#Style section, but it does not offer much in-depth advice on how video game articles should be formatted. Both the Fallout (computer game) and Fallout 2 articles need to be completely reformatted. I ask an experience user to reformat both articles to an easier to read, more functional format. Made of people 23:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to do something on this matter awhile back. Editors for other CVG articles are basically copying the structure of featured articles such as FF7, StarCraft, etc. Since I don't have any knowledge about the real-life aspect of the game release (e.g. development, reception), I did not bother with the structure change. --Voidvector 03:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection requested

I've requested this article be semi-protected due to vandalism and contested edits from anonymous IPs without discussion. --ElKevbo 22:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

page protection?

why's this page protected I'd like to edit it as I am a fan of fallout but the page's protected Falloutfan 15:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I second this. I'd like to clarify some statements about the game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added circa 08:49, 13 February 2007 by 24.41.47.125 (talk • contribs) .
See above section; it's only semi-protected. Sign in with an account more than a few days old, and it can be edited. Abb3w 13:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

I've massively reduced the trivia section; the remaining items should be ones that could be incorporated into this article's text without seriously distracting from it. Mangojuicetalk 21:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Black Isle Studios

Only Fallout 2 was made by Black Isle Studios. Therefore, the first game in the series should not be listed in the Black Isle Studios category. SharkD 23:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was and it wasn't... "Black Isle Studios is the role-playing division of Interplay Entertainment. Black Isle was formed in 1996 but didn't start using the name Black Isle Studios until 1998 with the release of Fallout 2." (Reference found in Black Isle Studios article.) If you look at the latest archived official Fallout website, you can clearly see a BIS logo. The linked-to BIS site also clearly claims both Fallout and Fallout 2 as their games. Really, it should be included with BIS' other games. —GrimRevenant 01:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

CVG Assessment

This is in regards to the request placed on the CVG Assessment page. I have rated this article as start-class, though with a little work, it can be improved to a B-class article. A few suggestions- merge the game locations section into the story. I know you can technically go most anywhere anytime, but there is a general pathline, so follow that, describing the locations as you get there in the plot. As it stands, all of the subsections of the locations section are short and stubby, and there's not much to add to them all, so they should be merged together. The trivia section should be deleted outright, there's nothign in there notable enough to be included in the article itself. Expand the reception section a bunch, it should be a major part of the article. Finally, references! You have 5, but one of them is int he trivia seciton, and is the best reference you're using. The Reception section needs references, and the Influences section needs to be referenced heavily if it's all going to stay, because right now there's nothing to prove that it isn't all just something that whoever wrote it made up. For more help, send it to Peer Review. --PresN 03:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no set pathline, trust me on that. Mikael GRizzly 06:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fallout 01.jpg

Image:Fallout 01.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fallout 01.jpg

Image:Fallout 01.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Hardcore Fallout Fans

I believe that hardcore Fallout fans have received enough mainstream media attention to warrant a mention here or maybe even their own article. SharkD 20:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Fallout voted #1

Fallout was voted the #1 RPG of all time by computer gaming world, and I would like to add this to the article. However, the only reference I have is one of their magazine issues. I have searched the web and have found no mention of this, nor any mention of any of the games that they voted #1 in each category. I was wondering if I could still add this without a web reference, since all I have is a physical one.Paladinyann 00:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You are definitely welcome to add information sourced from print material. The exact medium of a reference doesn't matter. Our yardsticks are verifiability and reliability. --ElKevbo 00:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
See Citation templates for instructions on how to reference the article. SharkD 01:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

3 recruitable NPCs from The Brotherhood

It's possible to recieve a powerful support of 3 warriors from The Brotherhood of Steel, however they appear only at one place - The Military Base. To get them, the character have to visit the area of base, come back to The Brotherhood, and convince The Elders of attacing The Base and giving him a support. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nepireus (talk • contribs) 10:58:26, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

German Wikipedia

The German Wikipedia has an article about Fallout,too. Someone should add the link. (de:Fallout (Computerspiel)) --Buxbaum666 09:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks! Chris Cunningham 11:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Murdering children

It is supposedly a big damn deal that you can kill kids in Fallout since that's relatively rare in electronic games. Is this worth a mention? Universaladdress 06:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This is probably more relevant for Fallout 2 since it is the distinction between American and European version of that game. --Voidvector 16:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
That's in Fallout 1 as well (the pickpocketing kids in the Hub), and it's more important in Fallout 1 because the removal of the kids breaks a bunch of quests in the non-US versions. Chris Cunningham 19:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
There are no children in Fallout 1. The pickpocketing kids are found in Den in Fallout 2. --Buxbaum666 09:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
There ARE children present in Fallout 1 ; just not in all versions. Can't recall which version had it, but there was a "Children Patch" to the UK version bringing back children.

Also there were no PICKPOCKETING kids in The Hub. You must have thought about Fallout 2, where in The Den they actually did steal. PLANET 13:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor Changes

I added a few links to the "See Also" section, Fallout 2, Fallout 3, and Fallout (series). Maybe only the last one is necessary, your thoughts here!! --Sakkath 06:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to reorg the intro to make this unnecessary, but thanks. Chris Cunningham 22:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I would like to stress, that Fallout 1 has only _200_ % maximum on the skill points scale, unlike Fallout 2, which has 300 % maximum.

There is currently no way to correct it manually (edit is blocked), so I'm posting here for someone of greater access to correct this. Thanks in advance.

User: PLANET Time: 22:53 (CET) Date: 13th September 2007 (sorry, don't know how to write it in a better way)

This page is semiprotected; any username more than a few days old can edit it. There is no need for administrator assistance to edit this page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure, but as a new user I wasn't aware of that. That's why I asked admin for a help, and the error was well... obvious. PLANET 22:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Tagline

Should "A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game" be added to the article's title? This is the game's tagline. SharkD 18:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Taglines are not part of a title. If it were a subtitle, it would be a different matter. --Mika1h (talk) 17:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I always thought "A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game" was the subtitle. Both the Fallout Wiki and the mirror of the original Interplay site list the game as Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game. From the Fallout Wiki: "Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game - the first game in the Fallout Series, developed and published by Interplay in 1997." Bones O'Malley (talk) 20:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
After being referred to the above two articles, I feel more confused as to what constitutes a tagline or a subtitle. In this case (and others), the "tagline" is bunched up pretty close to title (i.e., it's not placed somewhere less prominently, such as along the bottom of the box/advertisement like in Alien (film), or along the top like in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan) and uses similar formatting and presentation (e.g., is placed in a colorful box and uses a similar font) as the title, which suggests to me it might be a subtitle. I was going to mention the mirrored original website, as well. SharkD (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I have always somehow considered "out of universe" lines like Riven: The Sequel to Myst or the title in question to be taglines. I have no sources to back this up, so I could be entirely wrong. --Mika1h (talk) 23:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bottle caps

You don't find the fact that bottle caps being used as currency in Fallout of interest? Following a discussion elsewhere, I was surprised to find that a Wiki search on Fallout and "Bottle caps" hit the Bottle Caps entry rather than the Fallout out one. I've not played Fallout and so the Wiki article was of interest. Having a mention of the bottle caps/currency thing seemed non-trivial to me, but I'm not qualified to write on the subject. Perhaps a cut and paste of the content from the Bottle Cap page would be in order? Dave Barnett

  • I just realized bottle caps are nowhere to be mentioned, which is strange. That was one of the first things I noticed in the game, and found it quite... Interresting, actually. I put it into the article. Thanks for pointing that thing out, friend. TheVaultDweller (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fallout 3

Someone should add in the "See Also" section Fallout 3 as it's been announced quite awhile ago. I would do it myself but it's locked.--24.222.149.142 (talk) 05:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Freeware

I'we heard that the game was made freeware recently (available to download via GameTap). It is mentioned in the article that the game was released in GameTap at July, 24 2008 but no other information is provided. Here is the source: http://www.gametap.com/game-events/new-games-fallout-2-stand-ofood-plus-free-fallout--195.189.81.86 (talk) 14:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Weird. Other sites are still selling it, I think. SharkD (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Just being released for free doesn't make the game freeware, Gametap could have been distributing the game out of their own pocket to promote their service. Rehevkor ✉ 18:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Gametap does short term free use of games all of the time in order to promote their service and the games. Fallout has never been freeware. UncannyGarlic (talk) 05:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Steam vs Other Vendors

So, its mentioned in the article when the game was republished via Valve's Steam. However, another vendor had the game up for sale again, PRIOR to Steam... yet steam gets preferential mention? You were able to buy Fallout at GOG.COM before, they also have Fallout 2 and Fallout: Tactics as well. I only think it's fair that the "little guy" get equal mention, if we are going to mention particular vendors at all. --Draeath (talk) 05:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It should simply be replaced with mention of being available from various digital distribution vendors. That way no preference is given to any specific company and it makes it clear that it was/is available through a number of vendors. UncannyGarlic (talk) 05:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

What exactly IS the point of having the released on Steam notification up there anyway, in the very first paragraph, second sentence. It doesnt fit. Blatant advertising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.240.12 (talk) 03:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say blatant. But I have replaced with "digital download". Rehevkor ✉ 03:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

No metion of "A boy and his dog"

Why is there no mention of the 1975 movie "A boy and his dog"? Agreed, there are more references to the movie in FO2, but the universe in is still pretty much a verbatim copy of the movie's universe, and certainly had a major influence on the world -- more so than Mad Max 2 did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrederikHertzum (talk • contribs) 10:37, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

References, please. Sir Lothar (talk) 15:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

RAM Requirements

How is it that the MS-DOS version requires 32MB of RAM, while the more resource hungry Windows (95?) requires 16MB of RAM? - MSTCrow 01:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The Win95 version makes use of DirectX, and so doesn't have to implement so much of the graphics and sound infrastructure itself. It makes sense that this would reduce the memory requirements for the game itself. Win95 itself required a lot more RAM than DOS, yes (4MB minimum vs 512K minimum), as well as a generally better system, but was well worth it for many applications. —GrimRevenant 12:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
DirectX eats up RAM too. Thinking of Doom and Doom95, Doom liked 4 or 8MB of RAM, and then Doom95 liked 16MB or more. Doom95 made heavy use of DirectX, if I remember correctly. Both are freeware, so could test it if you wanted to. The only thing I could think of is that the DOS graphic and sound routines were incredibly sloppy. Having direct access to the hardware, without a virtualization layer, should decrease memory requirements. - MSTCrow 17:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Doom 95 was a Microsoft port, so it's maybe not the best indicator. Other than that, maybe virtual memory? ;) —GrimRevenant 12:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The DOS version runs with 16 MB if you exit Windows 95 to the MS-DOS prompt and install the game. --201.79.120.38 (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Skill Percentages

I'm pretty sure that skills in the original Fallout can actually go up to 200 "%". If I remember correctly, Chris Avellone or J.E. Sawyer said that the percentages didn't make any sense, and that they were going to be removed from Van Buren, the original Fallout 3. Whoever wrote the skills page obviously is a "Fallout" 3 player. --Mgmir (talk) 00:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Fallout 1 and 2 went beyond 100%. If the article does not reflect this, please feel free to change it yourself. Rehevkor ✉ 02:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
...of course giving reliable sources per Wikipedia:Verifiability, Sir Lothar (talk) 07:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, although right now it isn't sourced at all. Rehevkor ✉ 10:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I mean, if we don't have reliable sources for statement: "Fallout skills can actually go up to 200 %", we shouldn't (yet) put it in the article. If we have though, that's OK, Sir Lothar (talk) 07:29, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Can't you just cite the game itself? SharkD  Talk  21:13, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Maybe we can just reference to the game manual ? But is it consistent with Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper) rules ? Shouldn't we put some external references like game magazines, portals etc. ? Sir Lothar (talk) 10:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Manual would be fine afaik, it's a reliable primary source which is fine to use with care. Except in this case it doesn't state the % ranges. I checked last night. The SPS rules don't apply in this case, that's really for blogs and vanity press etc. Rehevkor ✉ 11:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

After doing a search, I found it mentioned in the game's patch notes. SharkD  Talk  06:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oops, that's for Fallout 2. SharkD  Talk  06:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Removal of "Recruitable NPCs" section

I am removing the "Recruitable NPCs" section because I believe it improves the article by removing the only piece that seems like it's from a gameguide. I don't see the section having any significance to anyone who isn't playing through the game. UncannyGarlic (talk) 06:45, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Should have been removed long ago, good call. Eik Corell (talk) 20:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Skills, traits, perks, karma, but no short list of recruitable NPC's? Dloffakcs Noino (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
I re-added an abbreviated version of the section and limited it to two and only two examples so readers can still get a general idea. No, there's no reason to list each and every single one of them. SharkD  Talk  12:13, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

To IP user: 115.72.13.126

Don't do this. SharkD has clearly stated why this section is important: [1]. If you don't agree with him, write in discussion and explain. Keeping on reverting can only cause your block. Thanks, Sir Lothar (talk) 11:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the IP won't engage in discussion at all what do we do? Is there room to prune those sections to better comply with the guidelines he/she originally sited? My impression was that the gameguide guideline had more to do with cheat codes and walkthroughs. I personally feel that the character development is perfectly valid in the article. Am I off base? Millahnna (talk) 08:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the user isn't elaborating on their concerns on the talk page, and forces their edits through, I think it would be a good idea to take it to AN/I. Eik Corell (talk) 08:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough. But then per AN/I instructions who do I notify (since the IP is going through a proxy to IP hop)? Obviously anyone else who has reverted those blanking edits but as to notifying the IP I'm not sure how to handle that. Suggestions (or better yet, someone else want to make the report)? Millahnna (talk) 08:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd say just inform the latest IP, then put a short description on AN/I: IP cites WP:GAMEGUIDE, but any attempt at debate is ignored and instead they force their edit through. But yeah, AN/I can be a pain, with all the link formats and stuff. Only way to get it done is just to get through it. It's a bit strange, one of the IPs responded on a talk page of another article, so language is no an issue here(then again, if they know about WP:GAMEGUIDE, that's a bit redundant to say). Eik Corell (talk) 09:30, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I've made the entry at WP:AN/I. Eik Corell (talk) 11:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Excirial's previous full protection was a sensible attempt as at that point it was kind of a two-sided edit war. But now that you two seem happy to discuss it, while the IP editor continues to edit-war without discussion; I've semi-protected the article to prevent anonymous editing for a week. Assuming the IP editor is reading this - please do discuss your changes here. ~ mazca talk 11:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

THanks Mazca. OK so now I go back to the content question... I figure lets make sure we've got a consensus visible here on the talk page so that if this comes up again, we can refer back to it (or change it if that ends up being the decision). Is the material that the IP is removing overly detailed based on the gameguide guideline? I don't feel that it is for the reason sited in the initial round of reverts but I'm willing to look at the idea that we might be able to trim it down to more general information if the consensus is to do so. For example, I could see the point of someone who argued that we didn't need to go into as much detail as we do about the classes. Again, I think what we have is fine but I don't know the video game article MOS as well as I do other MOSes on Wiki. Millahnna (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

This is not a gameguide issue as already stated by other editors, a gameguide would be cheats or level walkthroughs etc. The character generation and levelling system is integral to the Fallout RPGs. The perks and reputation systems have a direct impact on gameplay, and the level of detail here is appropriate, readers should be given this information. There are, IMHO, too many sub-headings and like most bodies of text it could be reworded and trimmed slightly, but that's small fry and nobody is preventing anyone else from doing that. Someoneanother 13:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Someone another (heh). That was my understanding as well, but like I said, I don't know the video game MOS that well yet so I wasn't positive. I figured lets get a few folks in here saying that and when/if this comes up again after the article is off protection, we'll have the record here to refer to. Millahnna (talk) 13:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
No problem, there are times when I should do the same myself and do not, more fool me. In a lot of cases if there was that much detail of a single aspect then it would be overkill, which may be what Anon. is thinking. In this particular case though the emphasis is beneficial. Someoneanother 13:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


Reference material

While digging around the online print archive, I located several previews for this game, which could be used as references:

In addition, there are numerous reviews for the game already in the archive, which may be viewed here. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

There's some (sourced) stuff in History of role-playing video games that doesn't exist here as well. SharkD  Talk  23:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Origin of SPECIAL

Is SPECIAL an acronym or a backronym? This question has bothered me for a while. 92.80.87.118 (talk) 19:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

This isn't the right place to ask, and I don't know. Go search NMA or Duck and Cover. Muskeato 20:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Acronym. The attributes existed first. In one of the bibles it said they originally used a different acronym, until one of the developers noticed it spelled "special" if the letters were re-organized. Probably want to double check this at NMA though. SharkD  Talk  20:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Reassessment?

Should this article be reassessed to 'High' importance? It's pretty frequently cited as one of the pinnacle examples of CRPG development, and serves as the basis for recent re-imaginings of the series in the form of the new sequels. SharkD  Talk  03:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Suppose it's not implausible - but then I'm biased. At least in terms of the VG project.. perhaps high on the alt history project is pushing it a bit. Rehevkor ✉ 04:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Regardless, the game appears on four separate "Hall of Fame" lists. I think that's more than sufficient to elevate the article to "High" importance. SharkD  Talk  20:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Fallout Trilogy

Why does it say that a citation is needed for the following line: "The game, along with its two followups, Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics, were put together in to the Fallout Trilogy."?

Those three games are part of a 3-game set that was released somewhat recently called "Fallout Trilogy" so why do you need to cite that a well known product exists and how do you do so? TheGary (talk) 11:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, linking to a press release announcing the product would at least confirm its existence. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

The Steam release date has not been noted.

All Fallout games are now available on steam, could anyone add this date? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.209.190.240 (talk) 06:19, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

First-person?

Does this game really have a first-person view mode? It says so in the box on the right (section "Mode(s)"), and Fallout 2 Wikipedia page mentions nothing about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.250.12.25 (talk) 18:07, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

No. --Niemti (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

It is only first person on the Bethesda made games.108.198.97.224 (talk) 05:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Introduction

Rather than "tasked to find the Water Chip to save other dwellers from water's shortage", shouldn't it be: "tasked to find the Water Chip to save other dwellers in the vault from the shortage of water"?Royalcourtier (talk) 07:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

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Vandalism of page.

This page seems to be a bit of a target for people with nothing better to do than write uninformitive and bland comments. I'd suggest the page be locked and the perpetrators be sentenced to retake basic high-school english...and possibly be subject to gym-class beatings.

Release date

JimmyBlackwing, TheBuddy92, could we please discuss this here instead of edit warring? could one of you explain why the Pete Hines source is not reliable? Thank you. QuestFour (talk) 21:38, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

@QuestFour: Basically, the Pete Hines source is unreliable because it isn't true. Hines has no special insight into Fallout 1's release date, given that Bethesda had no input on Fallout 1. He's clearly basing his statement on the widely-publicized but incorrect release date from GameSpot, which, per the discussion I linked, was generated by a technical error during the early 2000s. Contemporaneous sources from the actual period in which Fallout 1 was released, including the source used by Buddy, show that the game was released on or around October 10. In fact, per the team's own production blog, Fallout 1 was not even finished on September 30. As a result, there's no real debate to be had here—Hines was clearly wrong, and Buddy's contemporaneous source is far more reliable. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Release Date

The release date listed in the article is October 10, 1997. However, the source for this claim does not state this, it merely states that, on October 10, 1997, that Fallout is "shipping". Nowhere in the archived page does it claim that that date is the game's "release date". I would be fine with this, if not for the fact that not only does the Fallout Wiki state that the game was released on September 30, 1997, (which, I know, not a source) but on September 30, 2017, Steam offered a 20th Anniversary Sale for the Fallout franchise, where Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics were offered for free to anyone who snagged them on that date.

I'll be looking on the WayBack Machine for a good archived source, but can anyone help? I'm gonna leave this talk section open and if anyone else can find a good source before I do, please correct the article and let me know. I'll leave the article be for now, of course.RobotGoggles (talk) 16:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see this has already been covered, nevermind.RobotGoggles (talk) 16:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Fallout (video game)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Haleth (talk · contribs) 15:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Taking notes. Will be back with comments on what needs to be improved over the next few days. Haleth (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@Haleth: So, it has been a week. Are you going to review this article or not? Lazman321 (talk) 05:01, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Sorry for the delay, I've been unexpectedly held up with IRL stuff for the past week or so. The article is generally well written and properly sourced, with no major issues besides some issues I found with grammar and prose.

Lead

  • Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game, most commonly known as Fallout or Fallout 1, is a turn-based role-playing video game developed and published by Interplay Productions in 1997. Replace "most" with "more".
  • It was initially intended to use Steve Jackson Games' system GURPS, but Interplay eventually used their own internally developed system, SPECIAL. This should be rephrased as the sentence does not flow well, and the "internally developed" part has incorrect use of an adverb. Either omit it entirely, write it as "internal system" instead or, rewrite as Interplay developed their own system called SPECIAL for the game.
  • Thanks to the karmic system in Fallout, It helped revive the role-playing video game genre, which was getting unpopular at the time. The tone and choice of words is not very appropriate here in my opinion. I suggest rewriting it in a more detached manner, something along the lines of Fallout is credited with reviving consumer interest in role-playing video games, and its karmic system is highly influential within the genre.

Gameplay

  • For the sake of consistency, I suggest that you either stick with or omit acronyms to discuss the game's SPECIAL system on this article. One or the other.
  • Endurance affects the Vault Dweller's hit points and resistance against effects Add "status" in front of effects and whitelink the words since an article exists.
  • Many characters in Fallout don't talk very much, only walking around and giving out predetermined short messages to the Vault Dweller. However, some characters do engage in longer conversations with the Vault Dweller. Some even have a 3D model of their head when talked to, or a "talking head". The sentences I have highlighted sound almost as if it is written by an enthusiastic fan, and overly casual in tone. I suggest rephrasing them. Replace "longer" with "lengthy" or "long".
  • Those types of characters are usually of significance to the Vault Dweller. I suggest placing a semi-colon to connect "talking head" and "those types of characters", to reinforce the point the latter sentence is making.
  • Four non-playable characters can be recruited by the Vault Dweller to aid them on their journey, though they can't be directly controlled by the Vault Dweller. Replace non-playable characters with companion characters, any instances of "Vault Dweller" with the player in this instance, and omit aid them on their journey since it should be written from an out-of-universe perspective.
  • The Vault Dweller may equip at most two weapons, and the player can switch between them at the click of a button Replace "at most" with "up to".
  • If the Vault Dweller doesn't have a weapon equipped, he can punch or kick I thought the player character may be potentially female if the player picks Natalia.

Plot

  • The conflicts include China invading Alaska, the United States annexing Canada, and the European Commonwealth dissolving. Grammar issue. Should be "dissolution of the European Commonwealth".
  • Should be a comma between collapses and leaving.
  • one of three already available I suggest one of three pre-generated characters.
  • With 150 days before the Vault's water reserves run dry Should be In, not With.
  •  Not done: This grammatically doesn't make sense. The full sentence is With 150 days before the Vault's water reserves run dry, the Vault Overseer tasks the protagonist, the Vault Dweller, with finding a replacement. Your suggestion would create In 150 days before the Vault's water reserves run dry, the Vault Overseer tasks the protagonist, the Vault Dweller, with finding a replacement. which sounds convoluted. Lazman321 (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I misread the sentence.
  • The survivors of Vault 15 have founded a town named Shady Sands. The Vault Dweller then travels south to Junktown, a town under conflict between Killian Darkwater and Gizmo. Omit have before founded, under conflict should be involved in a conflict. Who is Gizmo? I am aware that the character is discussed in the developmental section further down the article, but you should explain here who is he since the reader would usually reach the plot before the developmental section.
  • The cult-like Children of the Cathedral operating around the Wasteland are a front created by the Super Mutants' Master, who is using the Children to preach his message to wastelanders and get them to submit to him peacefully Should add "the" in front of wastelanders.

Development

  • emerge the player Does not make sense. Immerse the player, maybe?
  • The document became inspirational to the team behind Fallout, with Cain citing it as "a major reason why the game came together at all." Should be rephrased. I suggest something along the lines of, Cain described the document as an inspiration for the development team, and a "a major reason why the game came together at all."
  • they wanted to do a sequel to Wasteland for the game. Rephrase it as they wanted to develop it as a sequel to Wasteland.
  • The role-playing system GURPS served as the basis for the engine of Fallout before the license for it was revoked. Comma between system and GURPS.
  • The retrofuturistic art style of Fallout drew inspiration from many literature and media released during the late Atomic Age, especially Forbidden Planet. Grammar mistake, omit many.
  • The concept of vaults was influenced by the science fiction movie, A Boy and His Dog Add "the" in front of vaults.
  • They scrapped the idea as the 3D software renderer would've been slow on a massive game like Fallout. Not a good paraphrase in my opinion when compared to the original source text in Tim Cain's words, so it should be rewritten and recontextualized to better explain to the reader what he was trying to convey.
  • It's very random to have The view was in cavalier projection in order to arrange the hexes on the hex map in a neat fashion to follow a few sentences about non-linear open world design and the time limit and close the paragraph. It also lacked context, and I am not sure what it is actually trying to say. Suggest moving it to another paragraph and expand the prose.
  • Replace built with made.
  • Vault Boy, the mascot of Fallout, was created as a parody of films made during the 1950s The reception section establish that Vault Boy has since developed into a mascot for the entire franchise as a result of its growth. However, within the context of the game's development cycle at the time, Vault Boy was simply presented as a running gag being the in-universe mascot of Vault-Tec, the entity which built the Vaults but is not mentioned anywhere in the article as part of the game's lore.
  • They had to be added through script. Should be scripting. The sentence is too short. Consider joining it with the previous sentence to increase coherence and/or expanding it with a bit more detail.
  • However, on September 30, 1997, Fallout was not even finished. Interplay was fixing a major glitch related to sprite memory on that day. Consider rephrasing it to reflect a more dispassionate tone, like for example Fallout was not yet finished by September 30, 1997, as Interplay...

Reception

  • Worldwide, over 100,000 units of the game had been shipped by December, and Erik Bethke later reported sales of "a little more than 120,000 units" after a year on shelves. Add 1997 behind December, and the in front of shelves.
  • Next Generation criticized the isometric view that Fallout took on Just say Next Generation criticized the game's isometric view.
  • He however criticized the companions due to them being computer-controlled and having a tendency to get in the Vault Dweller's way during combat or shooting the Vault Dweller back. Rephrase as Conversely, Green criticized the computer-controlled companions as they have a tendency....
  • I suggest putting parentheses on "renaissance".
  • Just dropping by to second Haleth on this, and to add that the section about Fallout's importance to the revival of the RPG genre is still too thinly sourced to make the bold, sweeping claims it makes. Such as, "Role-playing games had not been popular since 1995. Fallout helped revive the genre of role playing-games through its karma system." This is a strange pairing of statements, even if a few scattered sources have made them. If RPGs hadn't been popular at all since 1995, then where do we slot in Diablo, Daggerfall, Ultima Online and Shadows over Riva? The RPG slump is widely documented, but the idea that no RPG whatsoever could succeed before the release of Fallout doesn't hold water. Mentioning the karma system is odder still — is the claim that karma caused Fallout to sell 600,000 copies and revive consumer interest in RPGs as a whole? Even if a source has made this specific argument, it's a strange and tenuous one, which the article gives undue weight by stating as absolute fact. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:56, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
  •  Comment: Okay, I can rework the legacy section, make sure to remove undue information, and add more sources for verification. But you still haven't answered my question. Why do I have to add parentheses around "renaissance"? The word "renaissance" was mentioned twice in the legacy section. Neither time would I ever have to put parentheses around it. The purpose of parentheses is to mention an afterthought or an explanation; the phrase could be left out and the text would still be grammatically correct. If "renaissance" was left out, the text would not make sense. So again, answer me. Why do I have to add parentheses around "renaissance"? Lazman321 (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
  • My apologies, it is one of my word salad moments and rather embarrassing. JimmyBlackwing is correct, I did try to say quotation marks. The reason why is because...I don't believe there is a definitive or widespread use of "renaissance" as a generic term for a cultural revival of some sort in general use, and typically the term refers to specific events. I can see the word being used by journalists who appraised the game's legacy like Seth Schiesel from New York Times, and if so, it should be attributed to the specific author as a statement of opinion. The other instance of the word renaissance is already within a direct quotation so it's fine.
Anyway, I did have my concerns about undue weight, and JimmyBlackwing identified and explained the extent of the issues better then I could. I'd like to see your proposed changes about reworking the legacy section actioned. Haleth (talk) 01:13, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Add the in front of overworking.
  • The claim about a troubled production for Van Buren lacked an inline citation. There is no context in the prose as to why Titus Interactive's part ownership of Interplay led to the troubled production.
  • Afterwards, Titus collapsed and Interplay canceled Van Buren. This sentence is disconnected from the previous instances about Van Buren or Titus Interactive, as it directly follows information about Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel.
These are the issues I have detected so far. Placing this review on hold. Haleth (talk) 14:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth: I have addressed your requests. Lazman321 (talk) 21:04, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Could you rephrase the tone of the sentence you added about Herve Caen? The use of the words "thanks to" is particularly problematic. I suggest something along the lines of resulting in a troubled production due to the controversy surrounding Titus Interactive's CEO, Herve Caen. Haleth (talk) 01:13, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth:  Done: I have changed the tone of the sentence. Lazman321 (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
It looks more or less ok to me. I would be interested to see what JimmyBlackwing thinks. Just a few more for your attention:
Pepe attributes the influence and success to the karma system Should be past tense like all the other attributed quotes of Pepe.
With 150 days before the Vault's water reserves run dry, the Vault Overseer tasks the protagonist, the Vault Dweller, with finding a replacement. Add left between days and before.
You still have not properly introduced Vault Boy in the prose or give context (as a brief explanation) of the character's in-game role though. Haleth (talk) 03:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
I have  Done your requests. In particular, I introduced Vault Boy in the characters sub-section of the plot section. Lazman321 (talk) 16:31, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
I am satisfied with your work. Passing the review. Haleth (talk) 17:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Copyediting comments

@Lazman321: I'll put my clarifying questions here as I go through. Ovinus (talk) 05:42, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  • "exploring the game world, visiting locations" – visiting locations is an implication of exploration. Do you mean that the player is directed to visit certain locations? Ovinus (talk) 16:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Comment: No, not really. I mean some quests including the three required to beat the game do require the player to visit different locations than where the quest was given, but the player is mostly free to explore the game world and do whatever they want. I have removed ", visiting locations". Lazman321 (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Comment: Generally, I prefer to refer to the player character themself when discussing a game. However, I do agree that "player" is more direct and less clunky, so we can use that instead. Just don't replace "Vault Dweller" with "player" in the plot section. Lazman321 (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Will follow that guideline, thanks. However, I replaced it with "player" in one instance where the plot is chosen by the player (e.g., "called Shady Sands, which the Vault Dweller can visit". Undo if you disagree. I'm not sure about preferred style in video game articles Ovinus (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "buying them using caps" What are caps?
  • "pre-War Soviet consulate in Los Angeles" – Being super picky here... which "War" is this? World War II? Cold War? Or the fictional war? If the last then it should be lowercase Ovinus (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "Official canon states that the Vault Dweller was male, but his name is unspecified." I am confused. The character you choose is the Vault Dweller, right? But shouldn't their standard name also be preserved?
  •  Comment: Technically, the player can choose to give the Vault Dweller an actual name during character creation. I have clarified this in the article. Lazman321 (talk) 03:45, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "Afterwards, before releasing the game, the team fixed some of the bugs present in Fallout" Relevant? (Doesn't this just mean they tested the game...) Ovinus (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Maybe abbreviation role-playing games to RPG early on, and then use that acronym for most of the article? (Not sure of guidelines on this one) Ovinus (talk) 03:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "there was reportedly much discussion about its "pausable real-time gameplay" thanks to its similarity with Fallout" There needs to be a bit more context on this one; why would real-time gameplay be a logical consequence of a non-real-time game? Ovinus (talk) 03:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Comment: The source isn't clear on that. I have removed the sentence; it isn't that important anyway as I doubt Baldur's Gate was influenced by Fallout due to being developed by Interplay about the same time as Fallout. Lazman321 (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "and development started after Cain convinced Fargo to allow development for a role-playing game based on GURPS" – seems redundant with the previous clause, so I removed it, but lmk if you disagree Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "Because of the lack of resources, early development was rough and difficult" – What does Cain mean by lack of resources? Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Comment: I have replaced "Because of the lack of resources," with "Cain considered the". This is because the "lack of resources" sentence originated from different part of the presentation, and Cain did not directly attribute the "rough development" to a "lack of resources". By "lack of resources", he probably meant a scarce team given the context. Lazman321 (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Done: Rewrote the statement for clarity. What the sentence was supposed to mean was that the player and player character's knowledge of the world would correlate. Lazman321 (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "The vault concept was influenced by the 1975 science fiction movie A Boy and His Dog" – Perhaps you could be a bit more specific on what the movie contained that inspired the vaults. Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • "The characters were purposely made morally ambiguous, with no clear right or wrong choice during each event. This was done so the player could take whatever choice suited them best" – This is rather confusing. How does the moral ambiguity of characters lead to moral ambiguity in choices for "events"? (Indeed, what is an event) Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Continuing that point: "An example of which would be the endgame encounter with the antagonist, the Master, which featured multiple solutions" This sentence is nearly meaningless unless the reader has actually played the game Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  •  Done: I have expanded upon this statement to make it more useful for readers who haven't played the game.
  • "According to Taylor, there was discussion among the development team about creating a demo for Fallout. The reason the demo was created and released was because "[they] just wanted people to play [their] game!" " Relevant? (What does this tell the reader, just that the team was excited? If the team hated the game and didn't want a demo, perhaps that'd be worth mentioning, but I'd hope they were excited! :P) Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
  • I suggest simply moving the references for "Fallout has also been ranked as one of the best PC games of all time by PC Gamer" and the rest of that paragraph to the greatest games of all time sentence, since they express very similar concepts. Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I think I'm mostly done. Hope this has been helpful, and sorry for the wall of comments! Ovinus (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your copyedit and notes. This has been quite helpful to the improvement of this article. Lazman321 (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Reviews

207.229.139.154 (talk) 01:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://archive.org/details/backstab-magazine-french-08/page/n47/mode/2up
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