Jump to content

Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2025/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2

Slovakia

Given how in the source for Slovakia's return, Ľuboš Machaj only states that "if everything goes without problems" the country would return, can we already consider this confirmation of participation? Even the article title seems to have been changed since being included here from "Slovakia returns to Eurovision 2025" to "Slovakia wants to return to Eurovision in 2025". Mr. Thistle (talk) 18:23, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it is a bit early to be considered a confirmation, it sounds more like a statement of hope for the moment; and this would mean also including Luxembourg. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 12:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Speculation

Each year we have the same discussion and the result is always the same (because of how Wikipedia works). Unless an entity has confirmed they are doing something, mention cannot be included in the participants area. We cannot speculate on behalf of any broadcaster or attempt to draw conclusions about what they could do. Grk1011 (talk) 18:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely concur. Too many of the sources included are very vague, and in some cases do not mention 2025 specifically at all. Unless there is something concrete within the sources that states what a country intends to do, and specifically for 2025, then the information should not be presented. Doing otherwise would be a violation of WP:CRYSTAL. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Portugal

RTP President of the Board of Directors has confirmed in this article by Eurovoix that Portugal has no intention to withdraw from Eurovision, stating that: "it makes no sense for RTP to consider leaving Eurovision." I brought the topic here as I was unsure if we could consider this a confirmation of participation or not and as such I was looking for the community's opinion on this. The source for this information is https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/13/portugal-rtp-ebu-may-14/ Violatie (talk) 08:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Russia

@IvanScrooge98: Should we add Russia into the 2023 and 2024 articles? Or do we leave Russia yellow with no comment, like Yugoslavia in the 90s — IмSтevan talk 17:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it would make more sense to leave it out, since its suspension is not related to those contests; otherwise, out of consistency, we would have to repeat it year after year until (and if) Russian broadcasters are ever reintegrated into the EBU. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 17:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
I like it as it is now. It's very briefly written why they have no chance to partcipate. They have a long history in the contest, and I think there is a lot of readers interested in knowing the situation about Russia, so I don't see why such a short line, as it is now can't be there Thomediter (talk) 11:55, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Norway

As of the most recent version of the article, a Hebrew article on a songwriting camp for MGP is listed as confirmation for Norway participating. This seems strange to me, as an article on that exact songwriting camp has previously been listed as source for Norwegian participation, but has later been removed as it didn't seem to confirm anything about Norway's actual ESC participation, only about MGP.

While MGP has so far always served as the Norwegian national selection, there is a theoretical possibility of it taking place without serving as such in 2025, as previous editions of other national selections have shown (Portugal's Festival da Canção in 1970 and 2000 as well as Hungary's A Dal from 2020 onwards come to mind), so can we really take an announcement of this songwriting camp (not even MGP itself) as confirmation for Norway's participation? Mr. Thistle (talk) 14:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A similar source was used to make the same assertion but this was removed a few weeks ago for the exact reasoning you described. I've gone ahead and removed it again. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I still think Norway should be considered a confirmed participants, when Melodi Grand Prix has been confirmed. That show was made and has always been used to select the Norweigan Eurovision Participant, so in what world does an announcement of that show not mean Norway will take part in Eurovision. We risk, having a very short list, and appear outdated, if we want literal words for every single confirmation of participants. Thomediter (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Sure, if they properly confirm MGP and don't explicitly state that it will no longer be connected to ESC (kind of how Iceland formally disconnected their national selection from Eurovision this year), we can assume they participate. As long as it's only a songwriting camp as is the case right now though, it's a bit too little to really confirm their participation. Mr. Thistle (talk) 16:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I disagree. MGP is not synonymous for Eurovision. If we make this synonymous, does that mean that Norway does not participate if the MGP is not organised? Of course not. But that's what happens if you grant those events an automatic connection. And I don't think we risk having a very short list; Eurovision media are very keen on looking for and publishing country confirmations, including literal words. And one could argue that this is still all speculation until the EBU publishes the official list of participants in September/October, so the fact that we're covering it ahead of the official list of participants, means that we need to source it well, clear and explicit. And it cannot be outdated as long as the official list of participants is not published. Hhl95 (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC) knowing norway: they will not participate without mgp. in 1991 mgp was hosted by a different channel and nrk did not want to send its winner. mgp have not been held when norway have not participated.84.208.108.74 (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Israel

Israel is listed as a non-returning country, is there any source confirming this?

I saw the edit history says "Israel cannot return", but I don't see any definite reason why Israel would be banned next year and can't find anything about this on the internet Rockoro (talk) 12:12, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this was reverted as of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2025&diff=prev&oldid=1223959688&title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2025&diffonly=1
Nevermind Rockoro (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Looks like accidentally doing something someone already asked about is something I do now. :) Jamo62 (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

TBA May 2025 seems wrong

So I've noticed that it currently says that Semi-final 1 is TBA May 2025, Semi-final 2 is TBA May 2025 and Grand Final is TBA May 2025. I have two issues with this, that I think are worth discussing.

1) There is no offcial rule, as far as I'm concerned, requiring that the contest takes place in May. It's true that it has taken place in May in the entire ongoing century, so it's expected to be the same for 2025, but we don't know for certain. One of the biggest reasons I have a problem with May, is that Eurovisionworld, which we use in between, suggest 29 April 2025 as a possible date for Semi-Final 1.

2) Writing TBA May 2025 can easily be misunderstood as meaning that the dates for the shows will be announced in May 2025. It's similar to if Greece shared that they were going to announce the artist in December of 2025, then we'd write TBA December 2025 in the Greece column.

For the first one, I think either removing May or adding (expected) to the text is the way to go.

For the second one, I'm kinda hollow at the moment about how to tackle it properly. But I wanted to hear if somebody had a good idea, to a change of concept that could improve this aspect of the page. Thomediter (talk) 12:06, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

On second thought, "TBA" should maybe just be removed alltogether concering the dates in the infobox. So we'd write May 2025 (Expeceted) or 2025 when informing about the show dates? Thomediter (talk) 12:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Agree with your view. I think "TBA" would suffice. The Contest has not always taken place in May and Israel and the Netherlands have holidays in May that are usually taken into account (both countries did not participate in the years that the Contest was held on those holidays in the '70s and '80s). So May is not simply a given. Hhl95 (talk) 13:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
If we look at Eurovision's How It Works page, there is a statement that Participants then compete at the Eurovision Song Contest, traditionally held in May. While it's not specifically concrete for 2025, I believe to ignore this would be wrong as well, given that the last time the contest was not held in May was in 1994. I think "May 2025" is a perfectly valid approach to the dates of the shows within the infobox at this stage. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
I would disagree with this, see also my comment above about distinguishing between rules and traditions. I don't think we should take May for granted, based on a tradition. If it was a rule, that would change things. Of course, I think it's not plausible that the Contest will take place in January or September, but a bit earlier, at the end of April, can be very much possible if that suits schedules better. Hhl95 (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
I'm also not 100% confident that writing May 2025 is a good choice. It's not a fixed month that the contest is held in. Thomediter (talk) 15:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
I get what you're saying with this, however we do have an official source now that says that traditionally the contest is held in May. Of course the exact dates are unknown at this point, but given it's been over three decades now since the last time it wasn't held in May, and given that only two contests in the last forty years were held outside of May, I think we're within the realms of plausibility to state that the contest will almost certainly be held in May again. We may be wrong, but given that the majority of the information within other sections of this article is also provisional, I don't see why we should be bending over backwards to try and disprove something when there's a 99.99% chance that it's right just because there's the tiniest possibility it's not going to be in May. Just like there's a slim possibility that X country might decide not to participate later on, that doesn't mean we shouldn't not include information right now that says they will participate, and I think the same process should be used for the dates as well. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
I think that adding something like "(expected)" at the end, could help this. Just like we do with this. Thomediter (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't see what's wrong with just "TBA" though, since we don't know the exact dates anyways. Hhl95 (talk) 09:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Switzerland

There is no source given for Switzerland's participation. I get it we take for granted that the host country participates, but hosting and participating are two separate processes. Even if it's unlikely - it would be a first if a host country doesn't participate - we cannot include it as long as there is no source for it. So I have removed it for now. And I wonder if the Swiss broadcaster even accepted the offer to host the Contest? Seems we're just assuming here as well. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The fact that cities such as Geneva & Basel have already announced their intention to bid to host, as well as this article confirming that meetings at SRG SSR have began over hosting duties essentially confirms Switzerland's participation. (the article in question is https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/13/eurovision-2025-meetings-commence/) Violatie (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I saw your edit. The article only covers hosting though, not participation. Hhl95 (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
If a country is hosting Eurovision, they are participatingat Eurovision, that is a rule in place and it feels like we are moving the goalposts here to not call this a confirmation of participation. Violatie (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
No, that is not a rule. It just has never happened before that a host country did not also participate. So the goalpost is right there. Hhl95 (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
It is utterly nonsensical to exclude Switzerland because they've confirmed they're hosting not participating. No country has ever hosted ESC and not participated, Switzerland hasn't ever voluntarily withdrawn from the competition, and spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on hosting just to not participate is stupid, it wouldn't make sense and there's a reason it's never happened before, that's why nearly every year the winning country confirming they're hosting has been a confirmation of participation on Wikipedia. Violatie (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
That's just a sum of assumptions. Wikipedia is only for sourced information, we cannot just assume that something happens because it never did not happen before. Such assumption is what is non-sensical. Switzerland has to be excluded from the list until there is a source that covers a confirmation of Swiss participation. Nothing is granted in the future, and especially not in Eurovision, as we noticed this year as well. Hhl95 (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Well no, that's not true. Wikipedia has its own page of "rules of Eurovision" where it specifically states that "The contest is organised by the EBU, together with the participating broadcaster of the host country, and is overseen by the Reference Group on behalf of all participating broadcasters," the source is a page on Eurovision's own website about the organisation of the contest. This is proof enough that Switzerland will participate as they will host. Violatie (talk) 05:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
No, it is not. The way it is phrased on that Wikipedia page, is not how it is phrased on Eurovision's own website. Eurovision simply talks about "a host broadcaster and around 40 participating broadcasters". So hosting and participating are two different tracks and there is no rule that the host broadcaster also participates.
And even if this doesn't convince you, on Wikipedia we do need to have our information sourced. So that is enough reason to cancel out Switzerland as long as there is no source covering Switzerland's participation. And it is all only preliminary until the EBU publishes the official list of participants, so there is absolutely no harm in leaving Switzerland out as long as there is no source covering it. Hhl95 (talk) 09:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
There is very much harm in leaving Switzerland off the list, every other Wikipedia had the host country listed as participating before their selection methods were announced, so why should we change that just because you personally disagree with that sentiment? A general consensus would need to be met but the general consensus is Switzerland will participate because they're hosting as spending hundreds of thousands of Euros on an event you won't participate in is stupid plus the EBU would never let the host country not participate, there's a reason that when Israel couldn't participate in 1980, they didn't host either. Violatie (talk) 09:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Very much harm, what exactly? We have one rule here and that is that information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately. The money isn't really an argument. As I explained, hosting and participating are two different tracks. The money that is spent on hosting is separate from the money that is spent on participating. The reason for Israel was that they had a holiday. That means that they couldn't participate, and they could not host also because of that holiday. Not because they didn't participate. And regarding the EBU, we have seen this year that the EBU can disqualify a country without any serious explanation, so I wouldn't place my bets on the EBU to never block a host entry from participating. What if Switzerland sends a political entry and is unwilling to change it? Switzerland will still host, but would not be allowed to participate. These are just hypothetical examples of course, but not impossible. And it shows that it is only just speculation if we assume that a host country participates for the fact that they are hosting. We just cannot assume that and we need an accurate source nevertheless. Hhl95 (talk) 10:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Okay, this makes near 0 sense. The EBU would only disqualify a host entry if they break the rules they create, in which case why even bother with having any countries on this list? By your own criteria no country has confirmed participation at all because no delegation has explicitly said "we are participating," what they have done instead is begin preparations for their selections for Eurovision 2025. If it were up to your criteria then Portugal, Malta, Spain, Denmark, and Finland all shouldn't be on the participants list, and again, it is an unspoken rule that the host country participates, there's a reason that no one has brought up your argument before, and that's because it makes 0 sense. Hosting Eurovision is expensive, and host countries don't have to pay the participation fee, so why host an event you won't even participate in? And do you actually believe the EBU would allow a country who's not participating to host? Violatie (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
The countries listed, all have a source with them that explicitly confirms their participation. Simply preparations are not enough, that's why many of the countries in the "Other countries" list have also been removed (not by me btw). And yes, if a country is already far in preparations for hosting and then happens to send an entry that has to be banned, the EBU is not going to change the location to another country on short notice. Hhl95 (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
That’s cool and all, but any country can be disqualified at any time, so why even have a participants list here at all? The reason is because the page will be outdated within a few weeks. Wikipedia’s purpose is to give out the facts on a certain subject. With Eurovision, fact is that at a current time, we have a number of countries making preparations to compete or host, and to host Eurovision you must participate, and again, if you’re so certain that Switzerland should be removed, why wasn’t Sweden removed in May 2023 following their Eurovision win? At that stage they hadn’t confirmed participation, just that they would host Eurovision. The idea to exclude the host country from the participants list because they haven’t “explicitly stated we will participate” is frankly, stupid, because at that point we’d have to remove many countries from the list and it would become outdated. Violatie (talk) 20:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
This list cannot be outdated as it is preliminary. The participants are only sure when the EBU publishes the list of participants, which is usually in October. That is why every participant that we add now, needs to be sourced clearly and explicitly. We have gotten used to adding those countries as soon as there is confirmation, but one could argue that it is not encyclopaedic as long as it is preliminary. So that is already a weak basis. There is absolutely no urgency to have a complete list now. So countries that are unsourced, have no place in the list. Unsourced information doesn't have a place on Wikipedia anyways. Hhl95 (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Switzerland is not gonna host the show whilist not participating, so if we write they are the host, of course we should write that they will participate. Thomediter (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
We can write that if we can provide a source with it that states so. Which is not the case with the source you added. Hhl95 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
As Eurovision host countries always participated in the past, I think it’s safe to say that we can use the same source that says Switzerland will host ESC to confirm its participation. Sure, as you mentioned before, maybe Switzerland will get disqualified for sending a political entry (which is quite unlikely coming from Switzerland), but we can take Switzerland off the list when/if that happens. After all, Finland, Malta or Portugal could all send political entries and be disqualified, but they are still included in the provisional list. For now, Switzerland’s participation is confirmed. Ludo.omt (talk) 03:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
For Finland, Malta and Portugal there is a source confirming their participation. Not for Switzerland. Hhl95 (talk) 08:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
So you want the article to be outdated because no one "explicitly states participation"? That makes no sense, and given how you're the only one who seems to have an issue with Switzerland being on the list I kindly ask you to stop removing them from the article as it's causing an edit war and the general consensus is to leave them where they are. Violatie (talk) 05:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Did you even read what I wrote? It cannot be outdated as it is only preliminary. And any information on Wikipedia needs to be sourced accurately, that is the basic rule of Wikipedia. So you'll have to find a source where it says that a host country automatically participates, or a source that explicitly confirms Swiss participation. There is no other way we can include Switzerland in the list. Hhl95 (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
I would have to agree here. Since it's a preliminary list, and we know at this stage that Switzerland intends to host, another reference which explicitly states that Switzerland intends to participate is still required. WP:CRYSTAL applies here, and to take "hosting = participation" at a rule would be a WP:SYNTH violation. There's a hypothetical situation, however remote, where the Swiss broadcaster may decide they don't want to host and then decide not to participate at all, which has happened before (see Eurovision Song Contest 1980). Even if it looks a bit odd not to say that Switzerland is participating in a country they're hosting, since Wikipedia is built upon referencing and sourcing, if we don't have the sources then it can't be included. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
So we expect SRG SSR to reach out to fan sites to say "Yes we're participating" even though they're focusing on hosting right now? No other country has done this and at no other time in a Eurovision Wikipedia article have we done this, it feels very unnecessary, as if we need to take everything too literally for a participation confirmation, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Israel ever confirmed they would host Eurovision 1980 at any point? Swiss broadcaster SRG SSR have already confirmed in numerous articles about hosting the contest that they are definitely hosting and evaluating all potential bids, so the comparison to Eurovision 1980 feels inaccurate here. Violatie (talk) 08:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Since I used the How It Works page in the May 2025 section below, I suppose it's just as valid here. On this page it says Participating Broadcasters work hard to prepare acts that will qualify from the show’s Semi-Finals, hoping for a ticket to the Saturday night Grand Final where they will join the so-called 'Big Five' broadcasters and Host Broadcaster (usually the broadcaster of the nation than won the previous year). I don't know if this is sufficient proof to include Switzerland in the table, but I would tend to support it if we're also using it for the May dates. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
I'd say this source works if it's used for other information in the article that people could argue "isn't certain." I believe the only reason they added "(usually the broadcaster of the nation that won the previous year)" to the website is because of situations that occur where the winning country can't host (notably in Eurovision Song Contest 1980 and Eurovision Song Contest 2023, however we have confirmation that Switzerland will host, and while hypothetically that could change, literally anything could change from now until May 2025 as we saw with the Dutch participation in Eurovision 2024, and as such I don't think excluding Switzerland for this reason makes a lot of sense. Violatie (talk) 09:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Personally content with the current solution. The added sources do now provide enough support to assume that Switzerland will participate. And if there is going to be a source where Switzerland's participation for 2025 is explicitly confirmed, we can replace the current sources.
It's not that at any point I expected Switzerland to not participate, but we have to back it up with accurate sources, especially in this stage where simply any information about the 2025 Contest is preliminary. Eurovision has a lot of rules, but Eurovision also has a lot of traditions that are not rules. It's important to keep distinguishing between them if we take anything for granted.
And the point of preliminary information is that we have to back up what we know at this point in time. If things change, we back that up with sources that cover that change. There is wide concensus to already start and edit Contest pages before they have taken place, but it's all future information and that is strictly not encyclopaedic. So we have to keep that in mind. Because actual encyclopaedic information is information that cannot change anymore, which means that it lies in the past. So sources are absolutely necessary as we cannot foresee the future. Hhl95 (talk) 08:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the most stupid thing I've ever read. Fighting over nothing, just wasting your time. Finlandestonia (talk) 14:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. Hhl95 (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Relevance of RTL opinion poll to Dutch participation

Tagging in @IceWelder and @Coriovallum on this. I see the section on the Netherlands (entirely consisting of the RTL opinion poll) was removed by IceWelder earlier as "The RTL poll is open to everyone, so it shouldn't have any weight here" and then restored by Coriovallum citing vandalism. I'm leaning towards the information not being included if anyone from anywhere can vote on the poll, but the source links to a 404 post at the moment so no way of knowing if that's true. Figure it's better to discuss here than to edit war over. Toffeenix (talk) 08:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Since the poll is not limited to Dutch residents (case and point: I voted in it to test this), the real-time result is likely to be tainted, and the notion that X% of Dutch people voted in a particular manner is likely to be incorrect. Furthermore, this is not a professionally conducted poll, but just an online vote thrown onto that website. If the provider comes out with a fixed result filtered to only include Dutch IPs, the story may be different, but for now it is just the old poll, closed, so I believe it should remain excluded. IceWelder [✉] 11:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
I would also be leaning towards not including this, for the very point that IceWelder listed that it's open to everyone and it's not representative of a sizeable enough portion of the population. It leans towards there being undue weight being attached to this one internet poll in my opinion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Current list/table of potential hosts

I want to make sure that I'm understanding the intentions and function of the current host table and section about potential host locations before I propose changes to it, because I currently don't quite understand the criteria for inclusion.

Basel - Included in table. One source for this is a tweet from Conradin Cramer, president of Basel-Stadt local government. I don't know if it's clear from that tweet that he is referring to Basel city and not Basel-Stadt?

Bern - Not included in table. Body says "the [cantonal] council congratulated Nemo and announced its support in organising the contest in Bern". I assume this is excluded as Bern is a big enough canton that it's not clear which host city this would be?

Biel/Bienne - Not included in table. Interested in co-hosting or being involved in some manner, negotiating with the city of Bern - not enough to include in table for either Biel or Bern?

Fribourg - Not included in table. I can't understand this at all. The Eurovoix article says "The city of Fribourg is currently examining whether or not to bid to host the Eurovision Song Contest 2025", but its citation seems to be that the CEO of a hockey team has said "We are currently analysing and discussing if we could bring Eurovision 2025 to Fribourg" without making it clear who "we" are in this context. And the Eurovoix article links to a Frapp article that says "Fribourg has shown no interest in organizing the competition". But the Eurovoix article says that the local government of Fribourg said "We are asking ourselves if the city could host such an event, notably in terms of accommodation and arena sizes etc" - would this merit inclusion if it can be backed up by another source?

Hope this all makes sense, just not understanding what the table is doing right now. Toffeenix (talk) 08:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Take this with a grain of salt. To me it seems that if a potential host city is to be included in the table, they need at least have expressed that they have launched a bid. If not, it is only a sidenote about cities expressing interest, but never bidding. Marius1603 (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Agree with Marius. As in years past, we should only include official bids. "Expressed interest" (especially by random politicians and the like) is non-encyclopedic. Grk1011 (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Also in agreement with Marius and Grk1011. I've gone ahead and removed the table for now, given there are no confirmed bids yet. I expect there will be some news in Swiss/Eurovision media over the next few weeks about actual bids, but until then a table is not required. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Probably should remove the map as well then, which marks the few "former" cities that were on the table. Real Heydavid17 (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Israel politicising the contest again?

So there's this Proletären article, which was realesed earlier today, saying Netanyahu got involved to ensure Israel's participation in '25 and threatened to withdraw the sponsor. I stress that I have no idea if this worth adding (hence the section) nor how to add it. Plus we should also note that the news hasn't been released in other media to my knowledge so... Main question is: is it worth adding now, should we wait more sources, or just not add it at all? Yoyo360 (talk) 11:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

It's unclear in the article whether the "intervention" was around Israel's participation in 2024, which seems more likely if it is the case, or future participation in 2025. Additionally, as you rightly state, this story isn't being picked up by other media outlets as yet. I'm not 100% certain about the reliability of the source either; it appears to have quite low circulation going by its article, and appears to be a direct outlet for the Swedish Communist Party. Given all these points I would be inclined to back not including it, in either the 2024 or 2025 articles, until the story is picked up by other sources which are more researched and where there is a better understanding of reliability. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Extremely unreliable article, which doesn't give anything on how the outlet obtained the information, and the phrasing is dubious "Netanyahu must have personally called leading figures in the Eurovision organizer EBU", in addition to the outlet being managed by the Swedish Communist Party. So for the time being do not cite this article unless more reliable outlets pick this up Pdhadam (talk) 16:25, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Fair enough to me. I didn't know anything of the outlet (though from the logo I had guessed the political orientation). I just didn't know if it was reliable despite it. Yoyo360 (talk) 06:21, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Romania returning?

I’ve noticed a series of editors adding and removing Romania to the provisional list and to the returning countries section. There is no ref currently. What’s going on there? Colin.1678 (talk) 09:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Bulgarian decision 🇧🇬

Good evening @IceWelder, I'm taking the liberty of writing to you here because I've seen that you've withdrawn my addition concerning the decision on whether or not Bulgaria's participation in Eurovision 2025 would be taken and announced in September 2024 on the grounds that the source is a fan blog. It's true that my first source was Eurovisionfun, which is a fan blog, but they're only broadcasting information provided by the official X account of Bulgarian broadcaster BTN. As such, I think that the X post on the official BTN account has a certain reliability. I've also added as another source an article from ESCPORTUGAL, a Portuguese media outlet specialized in Eurovision and recognized by the EBU, so this time it's not just a fan blog but a fairly reliable source. 77.198.50.49 (talk) 22:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The account regularly posts misinformation to a degree that some community members are questioning whether it even is a legitimate account. A quick Google reveals a community thread with many similar opinions stemming from the X post you are referencing. At this point, I don't think we should mention it because the mere root source is unreliable. Not by itself, not via other unreliable sources. EurovisionFun is a known unreliable rumour mill; ESC Portugal, at first glance, also looks like another fan blog (and all posts are by the same person). IceWelder [✉] 06:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Andorra will not be in Eurovision 2025

ChaseTOM4YT (talk) 01:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Cyprus

Cyprus has confirmed participation to another, more reliable source now so they should be re-added. It specifically states they confirmed to this site and isn’t citing the previous article. https://esctoday.com/195648/cyprus-cybc-confirms-participation-at-eurovision-2025/ Aaboucher.ajb (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I moved Montenegro to other countries

So, Montenegro just published this [1] ([2]). It's promising news that suggests that Montenegro is planning to return to the contest in 2025. However, I don't think this is enough to include them in the participants list, and this is partly due to how much it reminds me of the North Macedonia thing last year. But I feel like we should create a consensus on what to do, because they're unlikely to make a proper announcement for months. Thomediter (talk) 09:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how North Macedonia last year is relevant here. They planned on participating, it didn't happen. Every year there are 40-ish countries that plan on participating and then do it. Toffeenix (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
On Eurovoix, they even state that "While this document is not an official announcement from RTCG, its publication indicates that the broadcaster is intending to return to Eurovision next year.", so I'd say that for now, we shouldn't treat it as confirmation. Mr. Thistle (talk) 10:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The list in this article is of broadcasters that "have publicly confirmed their intention to participate", and Eurovoix says that the broadcaster is intending to return to Eurovision. So why is this not good enough? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
@Thomediter But the rules say "The Rulebook <...> regulates the procedure for selecting the composition that will represent Montenegro and Radio and Television of Montenegro at the Eurovision Song Contest 2025." I think we can consider this as a confirmation of participation Balandėliai (talk) 10:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
It's just not an official announcement. We had the same issue with North Macedonia last year, which made wikipedia reliability guidelines look very weak. Thomediter (talk) 11:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
I would say it is no less official than a few of the confirmations from other countries at the moment (Austria as an example. That's just a report from a newspaper saying ORF wants to select an artist internally, which is really no different from RTCG wanting to hold a national final) Toffeenix (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
I’d also like to add that the situation with North Macedonia in 2024 related to a budget plan that was not once officially confirmed to have been accepted, which is different to the situation we have here with Montenegro, where the broadcaster released a document outlining the rules for a national final that could take place (however states that in the event of the national final not taking place for specified reasons an internal selection will be held instead). All of this combined leads me to say that this counts as a confirmation of participation and carries more weight than what the North Macedonia 2024 budget plan ever did. Violatie (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Eurovoix themselves don't consider it confirmation, and that's the current source Thomediter (talk) 12:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The source for this is the file from RTCG, and this thread pretty much translates the key information it shares (https://x.com/ESCdiscord/status/1821095825855905978), including song submission closing dates and rules for the contest. I’m not sure why Eurovoix only considers it a partial confirmation given that the actual file from RTCG isn’t worded as an “if things go as planned” scenario. Violatie (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Montenegro should be considered fully confirmed considering the rules file is from the official state broadcaster and explicitly states it’s for the national final used to select a participant for the Eurovision Song Contest 2025, as violatie stated it’s not a possible ”if everything goes right” confirmation but an official ”we will participate” confirmation. Bukbunabinars (talk) 12:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Just got a comment, asking for a response from me since I started this. I'm not sure what the right way is forward, but I thought I'd make vote to include or exclude for now, just to get a clear picture of what the consensus is moving more towards, even though I can sense an idea of it.
So @Bukbunabinars, @Violatie, @Toffeenix, @Balandėliai, @Jochem van Hees, @Mr. Thistle, and anyone else who wants to weigh in a opinion here, are you Include or Exclude for now.
Personally I am
Exclude Thomediter (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
In the meantime, I'll leave them out, but the quicker the responses, the quicker we can see if there's a consensus Thomediter (talk) 22:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
  1. Include — IмSтevan talk 22:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. Definitely want to include. Bukbunabinars (talk) 05:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. For me, Include Violatie (talk) 05:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. includilo 82.51.69.158 (talk) 06:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
  5. Happy to include here. Toffeenix (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
  6. Include Yoyo360 (talk) 06:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Include Balandėliai (talk) 08:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Alright, although I still disagree with the decision, it is clear that there is as of right now, more support to include Montenegro as a confirmed participant. As there are no specific guidelines, or any big protest apart from me to exclude the counrty, it makes no sense for me to stand hard on the issue.
Therefore, if the information stays as it is now, I will stop reverting edits which puts Montenegro in the participants lists.
Thanks for participating in the talk, and I am happy it remained largely civil.
Have a nice day Thomediter (talk) 10:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
buona giornata 82.51.69.158 (talk) 10:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: This is completely different as this document explicitly confirms Montenegro's desire to compete, as it mentions Montenegro's participation at Eurovision 2025 multiple times, including the very header which says "Rulebook on the procedure on the selection of RTCG's representative at the Eurovision Song Contest 2025". Last year, it was reported that North Macedonia was going to return based off a budget proposal which was not adopted, this however is an official document, which has been adopted/stamped, meaning Montenegro confirmed their intention on competing — IмSтevan talk 15:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The document explicitly confirms Montenegro's participation. There's no point in arguing there... Yoyo360 (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Good evening @Pdhadam, @Jochem van Hees and @Sir Kenneth Kho, I hope are you well 🙂.

I'm writing to ask if any of you three can change the Infobox map back to the one without the colored Montenegro (the Montenegrin broadcaster has not yet officially announced its participation) until an official announcement is made? Unfortunately, I don't know how to do this, hence my request.

And could you also do it on Wikipedia's 2025 Eurovision Song Contest article in French?

Thank you in advance. T931201 (talk) 00:07, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Reverted it for now, awaiting the conclusion of this discussion (the map is on Wikimedia Commons: commons:File:ESC 2025 Map.svg). But I personally do think that the sources we have are ample for putting Montenegro on the list of countries intending to participate. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
So where is this all going? We have something like 3 to 7 in favour of keeping it. Yoyo360 (talk) 18:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, the broadcaster does not need to "officially announce its participation", as the wording above the table is "publicly confirmed their intention", which they have done. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah I’d agree, it feels like we’re moving the goalposts just for one country because other countries like Malta, Denmark, Finland, and Norway were initially confirmed by their national finals being confirmed to be used for Eurovision again, but these broadcasters didn’t “publicly announce their participation,” they publicly confirmed their intention to participate like you said. Violatie (talk) 21:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
anch'io sono d'accordo perchè il documento RTCG specifica "concorso Montesong 2024 selezione per l'eurovision 2025" e ciò significa che hanno in programma la partecipa 82.51.69.158 (talk) 06:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I’m seeing a lot of discussion here about how Montenegro hasn’t actually confirmed its intention to participate because they never “announced participation,” however I feel that we need a serious discussion as to what counts as an announcement/confirmation of participation and why a document released by a national broadcaster that specifically states they will participate at Eurovision doesn’t count as an announcement/confirmation of participation.

Some countries included in the current participation list (such as Austria) never properly announced their participation following the criteria we’ve set for Montenegro. In Austria’s case, a newspaper discusses Austria’s selection process and they’ve been added to the article.

As such I believe we should come up with a criteria for what counts as a confirmation or announcement of participation at Eurovision.

My own criteria would simply consist of the following - Document or statement made by a national broadcaster stating intention to participate, and rules set out for national selection published that state it will be used to select the song and/or artist that will represent their nation at Eurovision. Violatie (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I second this. Announcing a national contest in itself is not a confirmation, but if the rules lay out that it will select the Eurovision entry, it counts. That is, if an official document that has been adopted confirms intention on participating in Eurovision, it counts — IмSтevan talk 06:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
To clarify, North Macedonia's budget last year that was used as a reference was a mere proposal, so it shouldn't have counted; meanwhile, this is an official adopted document, so it counts — IмSтevan talk 11:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Same opinion here. Yoyo360 (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Have to add that eurovoix source don't consider it confirmation. Also Eurovisionworld does neither. Thomediter (talk) 12:42, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Is the broadcaster itself not considered a more reliable source when it comes to their participation? — IмSтevan talk 13:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Why are you ignoring the fact that the source from the national broadcaster (RTCG) where they explicitly confirm their participation at Eurovision 2025? It almost feels like you’re distorting the information at hand to fit your opinion based on a fan blog that has got the information wrong (which Eurovoix has done before). Violatie (talk) 21:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree, the wording above the table is "publicly confirmed", not "publicly proposed". Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: For now, I have commented out all countries which have been included on the same basis Montenegro is excluded on (confirming a national final that will select the Eurovision entry), or that have an even weaker reference, until this is settled, although I think this shouldn't have been a debate in the first place. We should create a guideline that will be followed in the future regarding confirmations of participation. — IмSтevan talk 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Restored everything including Montenegro, as consensus seems to have been reached — IмSтevan talk 10:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I propose using the plain text meaning of the wording above the table "publicly confirmed their intention" which commands presumed consensus. There are four elements:

1. In public, not necessarily official

2. Confirmed, not merely proposed

3. The broadcaster, not anyone else nor leaked

4. Intent for Eurovision, not local

Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Sir Kenneth Kho I like this suggestion but there's one catch. There's a talk below about France and how the broadcaster has not publicly released anything about their participation. Yet several websites have confirmed French participation because, as said below as well, many fan media contact the broadcasters to get confirmations. So in your criteria, does that count? Because that's not technically the broadcaster publicly releasing the news. And that would change quite a lot of how work is done here. Yoyo360 (talk) 11:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
I think such informal statements count because they are meant for the public and the broadcaster made them, but only if they are worded in a confirming manner. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Kosovo🇽🇰

Kosovo will not participate in Eurovision 2025 82.51.69.158 (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

https://eurovoix.com/2024/08/09/kosovo-application-for-eurovision-2025-rejected/ 81.133.130.94 (talk) 11:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree, Kosovo needs to become permanent member first. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Or at least associated 79.22.132.190 (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
@ImStevan check this out first Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

French participation not yet officially confirmed

Hello everyone. That's good, you've got a sense of humor, @Szyign. Meanwhile, Eurofestivales is a blog just like the one I quoted, and it's no more reliable than the blog I quoted. Besides, I don't make degradations, I modify the article so that it corresponds to reality. Give me a source to prove that France Télévisions has confirmed its participation in Eurovision 2025. I also ask for the opinion of other Internet users @Imsteven, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 … ). T931201 (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

France TV confirmed their participation in a DM with a user on Facebook, asking if France planned to participate, and if they would be using internal selection again. Not the most high up source but still a confirmation. No idea how to attach an image on here, but the message read:
"Bonjour,
Vous vous interrogez sur le représentant français du prochain Concours de l'Eurovision.
Je vous confirme que Le Concours Eurovision de la chanson est un événement annuel diffusé sur France 2. Néanmoins, il est trop tôt pour évoquer la représentante ou le représentant du concours 2025.
Je vous invite à suivre les résaux sociaux de l'Eurovision France pour vous tenir informé:
Facebook : Compte officiel de l'Eurovision France
https://www.facebook.com/EurovisionFrance/ (MP possible)
X (ex twitter) : https://twitter.com/EurovisionF2
Instagram : compte offciel de l'Eurovision France :
https://www.instagram.com/eurovisionfrance/
Bien cordialement,
Alexandre"
You can translate the whole thing if you want, but the gist of it is saying "Eurovision is an annual broadcast on France 2, it's too early to say who our participant for the 2025 contest will be. You can follow our social medias to stay informed (On how we'll be selecting our artist)" Based on the fact that they're confirming the selection of an artist, I'm going to call that a confirmation of their participation. Defeatedink05 (talk) 03:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
I would say "Eurovision is an annual broadcast on France 2" is a confirmation. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 13:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
In the specific context of this message, I can't agree. Some countries broadcast without participating, so technically....... Should we consider Netherlands in every year because they're legally obliged to broadcast Eurovision ? Of course not. Yoyo360 (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
You are correct, the statement is pretty weak. In addition, they only say "it's too early to say who our participant for the 2025 contest will be" without confirming there will be a participant even if it is not named yet. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
How they’re legally obligated to do it? They aren’t. They can withdraw if they want. It’s not the same case as French cause they literally said: yes it’s annual broadcast but we’re not sure yet how we will choose representative. So they will, but later. It’s not that deep, you guys have a problem with too shredding everything… Szyign (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
In the french original there's no actual future tense here. It says something more along the lines of "It is too early to talk about our representative for 2025". Which you can argue is still pretty solid I admit. I was just being technical for the sake of It here. Also, as surprising as it is, the Dutch broadcasters must broadcast Eurovision every year. See here. But that's not the point of the argument. Yoyo360 (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
France TV has generally confirmed its participation to fan blogs and fans in general through social media, so one can assume that this is how Eurofestivales got their article out on France’s participation (given Eurofestivales and some other fan blogs reach out to national broadcasters to make their articles), ultimately this source just depends on if we think using Eurofestivales as a source is reliable enough to be used here. Fan blogs like Eurovoix consider them reliable, it just depends on if we agree or not. Violatie (talk) 05:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Defeatedink05 Thank you for the information I didn't have. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a reliable enough source to confirm French participation in Eurovision 2025, especially since if I follow what you said, the French broadcaster talks about "annual broadcast" and not participation.  And to say "it's too early to say who our candidate will be in 2025" shows that no real decision has been taken on participation in 2025.
@Violatie, what bothers me about the twenty or so sources (Eurovoix, ESCBeat ... ) announcing France's participation in Eurovision 2025, is that they all take Eurofestivales as their source, which itself gives the information without quoting its sources, without putting up a screenshot of the e-mail from France Télévisions confirming this information, or without putting up a screenshot of the said private message confirming participation, hence the fact that I think we should keep a certain reserve and wait for more reliable confirmation. T931201 (talk) 12:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah fair enough I can agree to that, it seems like the wording isn’t strong enough to actually confirm participation and the source, while not necessarily unreliable, doesn’t provide information on the supposed “confirmation.” Violatie (talk) 12:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
And EscToday, Eurovoix and many other outlets put screenshots? No they don’t. But you believe them. It’s so double standards Szyign (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Not considering Eurofestivales as reliable is just being prejudiced to them, they did report correctly for a long time now… cmon it’s so annoying Szyign (talk) 19:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
To be honest the edits you have made to this end don't feel like they're being made in good faith. A bunch that were made yesterday were only reverting one part of the article, either the table or the number of countries. This feels, to me, like an attempt to prove some kind of odd point? ESCToday functionally does the same thing every year with confirmations from countries like Georgia and Moldova and that's always accepted as fine. I have no idea what the issue is here. Toffeenix (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Toffeenix, all the modifications are in good faith and here, the problem is that the sources you use to add France as a participating country all have the source Eurofestivales which gives the information without giving its sources (no screenshot of the message that would have sent France Télévisions to confirm participation and no link to an official publication on the site or social networks of the broadcaster or the French delegation). As such, traceability is not verifiable and therefore the information does not have to be provided at this time. T931201 (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Show me any portal that shows screenshots, this is nonsense Szyign (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Agree with Szyign, this is nonsense. You're now reverting any edit that says otherwise, that's absolutely not necessary here. No shame, but drop it now. Toffeenix (talk) 02:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Toffeenix This is hardly nonsense and I only cancel information which is not sourced with sources whose traceability is verifiable or for which the remarks are not clear/explicit enough which is the case of France in the current time. Besides, many people agree with me (@Sir Kenneth Kho, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 … ). T931201 (talk) 09:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
will look into WP:AVOIDEDITWAR now because this is frankly getting ridiculous Toffeenix (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Toffeenix, the behavior of same is ridiculous yes ... T931201 (talk) 10:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
I know that Eurofestivales reported correctly… because I was the one who asked French broadcaster on Messenger (since they didn’t answer on email) if they will participate, they responded me that they will but don’t know yet how they will choose representative, then I did screenshots in PC and Phone and send it to Eurofestivales. Your blog doesn’t know it cause they didn’t even bother to send a message to them, lol.
there you can see it: https://imgur.com/a/QKvS22O Szyign (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Szyign, in the response that France Télévisions gave you, it is marked "an annual broadcast" which proves that France Télévisions will broadcast Eurovision 2025 but not necessarily that it will participate in it. France Télévisions also says that it is too early to mention the representative in 2025, a sign that participation is not official. Pending a more reliable press release, it is preferable not to mention France. And once again, Eurofestivales reported poorly since they didn't even put the screenshot in question. T931201 (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@StephenOrsos2024, I invite you to read this conversation. T931201 (talk) 19:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Jesus Christ at this point we need to remove the whole list of countries cause they might change their mind on my god! Seriously you should stop trying to find a reason to remove something so badly. No it’s not a sign it’s not official it’s a sign they didn’t start looking for their representative, it’s your deduction which in your reasoning also is non sense. And again, what about Eurovoix, EscToday and basically any other media that doesn’t post screenshots. Why this only works for Eurofestivales? You are choosing who is okay and who is not? What is this about? Szyign (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm gonna go from my personal point of view. Before this french confirmation stuff I had never heard of Eurofestivales. Eurofestivales isn't even on Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision/Sources so personally I was neutral tending slightly negative. The information has been repeated by others but some are missing, including ESCToday. So I'm not fully confident if some are leaving the info out. The fact that the actual source of this info is you makes it worse. You're actively defending it, which makes sense. But 1. Your screen could have been altered (unlikely but technically possible), and 2. The fact that they didn't get that info themselves makes it even less reliable. Sorry not sorry but you are not a reliable source. Yoyo360 (talk) 20:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Then message French Television on Messenger and see for yourself. I also send them info about Latvia and Italy, both got later 100% confirmed. Szyign (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Szyign I am not a practicing Christian and the problem here is not that countries can change their minds in the meantime but rather that Eurofestivales does not cite its sources (unlike Eurovoix for example which generally gives as a source the publication of the broadcaster of the country in question on the networks or on the website as in the attached case) and that the response sent to you by France Télévisions only confirms a broadcast of Eurovision in 2025, not a confirmation of official participation. T931201 (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
It literally confirms participation. I asked them for the participation, they replied yeah it's an annual event in France and we didn't find a participant yet cause get what - nobody does in this part of the year. Your actions are not done in a good faith since you're removing countries which are confirmed by their broadcasters. I don't know what you want from them, they have to write it on their forehead "YES WE WILL PARTICIPATE" and you will be satisfied? You can argue with every single source like that, for example oh no ESCToday posted about Sweden and they didn't put screenshot, they of course lied and now we have to remove Sweden. Stop destryoing the page, for real. Szyign (talk) 20:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Szyign No, it's you who's interpreting this reply as an official announcement of participation, but it's nothing of the sort. They're just saying that they'll continue to broadcast the contest as they do every year and that there's no information about a French representative at Eurovision 2025, a sign that the confirmation is nothing official. All my changes are made in good faith and I'm only deleting countries whose broadcasters haven't yet confirmed anything (in this case France) and many people agree with me. It's you who's destroying the article by to add information (because you're involved in this massive dissemination of unofficial information) and which you're misinterpreting. T931201 (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Who's the many people you talking about? Are they in the talk page with us? I don't see them at all. You have a serious problem I believe. You forgot to remove half of the page and find some reasons to do so. You're misinterpreting them by adding your own words to them. Hope you will stop destroying the project because you're doing nothing great but the chaos. Szyign (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
We can cite @Sir Kenneth Kho, @Violatie, @Yoyo360 etc. so no, I don’t have problem (by the way, you will avoid insulting me). I am not deleting the entire article or even half of the article but simply the information for which the traceability of the sources cannot be verified and/or whose sources are not explicit/clear enough. I am not adding any words, I am taking the answer that was given to you word for word. And it's you who must stop destroying the article. T931201 (talk) 21:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
You must stop destroying the article. Chceck sources for Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Italy and many others. They work the same way. But you don't care cause you want to remove France so badly. Get some job. Szyign (talk) 21:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
You won. I'm so done reverting your vandalism, do what you want, destroy the page as hard as you want. You're acting like a child doing it all over again. I have better work to do then fight with you. Have fun! Szyign (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Szyign That's it, stop modifying the article if it means destroying it like this. T931201 (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Sweden, Germany, Latvia, Italy are all backed with sources saying the specific broadcaster confirmed its participation. French source is only including France in a list, without further elaboration, with two people in the comments arguing against it, and with me and @Violatie eventually arguing against it after examining the specific wording. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 21:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
I really don't understand why you want to remove France when Latvia and Italy were confirmed the same way. Can u explain? Kwintesencjax (talk) 21:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
this discusion is pointless Szyign is right. France will take part in ESC 2025 use your logic please not everything must be written directly and u should and stop creating chaos. Chaos is just what you are doing at the moment. give in, stop arguing and let us type France. Aaestikk (talk) 21:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Aaestikk This space is for discussion so no discussion is useless, regretting contradicting you. There is certainly a strong chance that France will participate in Eurovision 2025 (France has always participated in Eurovision except in 1974 and 1982) but there is no confirmation of participation in the response from France Télévisions, simply a confirmation of the broadcast of Eurovision 2025. Except on Wikipedia, each information added must be accompanied by a source clearly explaining the information and whose traceability can be verified which is not the case (yet) for the France. So before writing, read France Télévisions’ response more carefully! T931201 (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
"because you're involved in this massive dissemination of unofficial information"? What the hell. Yeah, France Televisions lied now. You're seriously acting crazy. Just accept they confirmed it, I don't know what they did to you, but you're really trying hard to remove them from the page i see. You don't care about Sweden, Italy, Germany and many other countries that got confirmed the same way, interesting. Szyign (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
France Télévisions did not lie, it answered you and you misinterpreted its answer, nuance. You are the one who needs to stop destroying articles, there are many people who agree with me so Stop. T931201 (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
U see what u want T931201, some other countries have the same way confirmations of participation on the English wikipedia. making pointless changes don't have any sense Aaestikk (talk) 22:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Aaestikk the difference between the other countries and France is that the other countries were accompanied by sources (whose traceability and reliability are proven) to confirm that the broadcasters had confirmed which is not the case for France. My modifications are not useless unlike your attacks. T931201 (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
btw "NOT YET" doesn't mean "won't". And stop behave like child bc you've deleted part of our discussion Aaestikk (talk) 22:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Aaestikk Not yet does not mean that they will not actually do it, but that they have not yet done it and therefore we must wait. And if you want me not to delete parts of the message, stop provoking unnecessarily. T931201 (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
when we were kind for you, u was like "i'm not gonna stop deleting french participation" i may be nicer but pls stop doing the same thing one milion times Aaestikk (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
@Aaestikk Deleting the French participation is not nice or mean, it is just modifying the article so that it corresponds to the reality of things. Furthermore, avoid provoking because it will get you nowhere at all. T931201 (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

My 2c is that we have confirmation from a perennially reliable source in Eurovoix, so this should be included. It doesn't matter if it's citing another source, Eurovoix in themselves are a reliable source and as Eurofestivales are not directly an unreliable source (just an unknown quantity), this isn't an issue. Also, a lot of the behaviour here is a clear violation of Wikipedia rules.

I hope never to have to see a discussion that's descended to this on this talk page again. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ser! Insults against me are certainly not comments in good faith, hence the deletion. As for Eurovoix, it cites as a source Eurofestivales which itself takes as a source an alleged message from France Télévisions in which it only confirms the broadcast of Eurovision 2025 so neither Eurofestivales nor Eurovoix are reliable sources in the present case. Please analyze the situation better before attacking me. T931201 (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Did you even read the link I sent? You removed comments by another user asking a question about why France wasn't on the page - there were no insults by StephenOrsos2024 against you. That's not your place to do. This isn't an "attack" on you, this is asking you to follow basic Wikipedia guidelines... ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Ser! Yes I read it and the reason why I deleted it is a simple mistake, because I wanted to delete an insulting comment towards me and I included the question without doing so on purpose, I apologize for that. On the other hand, I do not behave like a God, I asked for advice beforehand here by presenting my arguments in a polite and respectful manner and many people agreed with me, hence my modifications. T931201 (talk) 10:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
T931201, You’re not the one who is deciding when source is reliable and when is not. Eurovoix is counted as reliable source so it should be included. Szyign (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Szyign It's not just me who decided but many Internet users, and Eurovoix is ​​reliable in most cases but not in this case. T931201 (talk) 10:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Who are they many internet users were talking about. It’s only you who constantly revert it. And I’m not the only one who thinks France is confirmed, you reverted 11 times during 24 hours, that should show you that you’re wrong. Szyign (talk) 12:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, I apologize for saying that. It was just frustrating that T931201 was constantly reverting everything because he’s acting like a God who is always right. Szyign (talk) 10:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
For what it's worth if you encounter an editor like this ever again, you'd be as well going to either WP:3RR if they revert more than 4 times in 24h or WP:ANI if they're just being disruptive without violating that. Admins will usually handle them pretty quickly. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Ser! I wouldn't call it a violation because many people agree with me and I tried to defuse the disagreement before applying my changes. Plus, the violation works both ways... T931201 (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Where are the many people you’re talking about. Only you remove it. Leave your bubble. Szyign (talk) 12:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
@Ser! Let's discuss content! There is a clear consensus that Eurovoix and Eurofestivales are reliable sources, as independently provided by Defeatedink1005 and Szyign, also agreed by Violatie and Yoyo360, along with both of us.
There is also no dispute that the broadcast has been confirmed, however there is a dispute on whether the participation has been confirmed according to the source, please offer your views on this central point of contention to help form consensus.
The source says "Eurovision is an annual broadcast on France 2, it's too early to say who our participant for the 2025 contest will be. You can follow our social medias to stay informed (On how we'll be selecting our artist)".
A quick recap is that Violatie and I initially thought that participation is confirmed because we did not consider the distinction between broadcast and participation, but were quickly swayed because the source seems to confirm the broadcast but is conspicuously silent on anything else because it is too early. Yoyo360 has always said participation is not confirmed, Szyign has always said participation is confirmed. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 23:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
My take is that seeing as a reliable source have reported that they're participating, we can safely regard them as participating unless it's otherwise stated. We're using this as a source, not anyone's private messages, which broadly speaking can't be used as sources, so that issue goes out the window in my view. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 23:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
There are apparently twenty or so sources citing Eurofestivales, I don't know how to prove the screenshots are real but the email is visibly sent by Eurofestivales in the header, and Violatie's account that this is how France TV does things seems to corroborate it. Also, it seems that Szyign made the email on behalf of Eurofestivales, perhaps they can prove that. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
My take on this is 1. Eurovoix is generally reliable but I don't know Eurofestivales so I'm not sure what to think of it, 2. In the native French, there is no future tense : il est trop tôt pour évoquer la représentante ou le représentant du concours 2025" should be translated as "It is to early to talk about the representative for thr 2025 contest", 3. The fact that the info has been given to Eurofestivales by Szyign makes it worse. It's close to conflict of interest, because they'll want to promote the info they got themselves, and it's also close to hearsay because we have no hard proof the message actually is from FTV. Tracing it all back, the original source here is Szyign, who is not a reliable source. Yoyo360 (talk) 08:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I don't think Szyign faked the screenshots, because it contains "it is too early to tell" that goes against their own self interest. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I will note here that while this is not listed as a reliable source in WP:ESC/S in contrast to Eurovoix, the French source https://www.enroute-eurovision.fr/concours-eurovision-de-la-chanson-2025 explained:

🇫🇷 France at the Eurovision Song Contest 2025
An announcement of participation was made by a Spanish website [Eurofestivales] and relayed by several official sources [Eurovoix etc.] without providing a real source. However, to date, neither France Télévisions nor the French delegation has confirmed their participation. It will probably be made official in the coming weeks.

Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Date for Montenegro

So, since Montenegro confirmed Montesong 2024 as their national final, would it make sense to add that Montenegro is going to decide their entry in 2024 (by 31 December)? — IмSтevan talk 21:55, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

This could be original research, their last one during Eurovision 2022 was decided in 4 January, with similar timeline to the current one. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 22:28, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
@Sir Kenneth Kho: To make that comparison, that (internal) selection would have to have been "Montesong 2021" or "Montevizija 2021". Was it? My point is that having the selection for Eurovision 2025 have "2024" in the name, means that the contest is set to be held in 2024, that is, by 31 December 2024 — IмSтevan talk 22:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
During Eurovision 2022, the vast majority of the internal selection occured in 2021, they could have well called it Montesong 2021, while still having the same submission date as this year, and finish on 4 January. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 10:14, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
I think that inference would still qualify as original research Cal3000000 (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2024

I noticed that it has been shown that the broadcaster responsible for Georgia's participation has been put as Georgian Public Broadcasting, not Georgian Public Broadcaster. Georgian Public Broadcasting serves the US State of Georgia, not the country of Georgia itself, so please change it from Georgian Public Broadcasting to Georgian Public Broadcaster. PS: I should mention this is under the "Provisional list of participating countries" section. Aæãåāàáâä (talk) 12:10, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed. IceWelder [✉] 12:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Excuse me, could you mark Georgia in the participants map? 79.49.134.151 (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
As far as I can see, Georgia is already filled in on said map. IceWelder [✉] 15:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Eurovision_Song_Contest_2025/Archive_1&oldid=1246256802"