Talk:Estate houses in Scotland

Estate houses in Scotland has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: May 17, 2014. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Estate houses in Scotland appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 5 June 2014 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that private estate houses in Scotland originate from extensive building and rebuilding of royal palaces, probably starting under James III?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2014/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Estate houses in Scotland.

Wikipedia

Title

Why’s this titled the way it is? In general, these houses are usually termed "Scottish country houses". "Estate houses" is a rarer phrase. Aren’t all country houses based around an estate, anyway? RGloucester (talk) 21:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is more accurate for the subject here. Scots Baronial houses of the sixteenth century cannot really be described as country houses.--’SabreBD' (talk) 07:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose, in a way, that’s true. But there are English "country houses" that do not really fit the criteria either. One can’t deny that the common name is "country house". A quick google search returns "estate houses in Scotland" and similar formulations return almost no relevant results, whereas "Scottish country house" provides a ton. According to WP:COMMONNAME, commonality should take precedence over minor technical matters, should it not? RGloucester (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have to consider the other criteria as well, including Precision. Also, I see a lot of references to estate houses as a wider category in the literature on Scotland.—SabreBD (talk) 12:35, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not saying the term "estate houses" isn’t used, but merely less so, and seems to be more of a "specialist knowledge" term. Why exactly is "estate house" more precise? English country houses were also based around landed estates. RGloucester (talk) 16:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Estate houses in Scotland → Scottish country house – These houses are commonly known as Scottish country houses, and not as estate houses. While the term "Estate house" is occasionally used, this usually only occurs in specialist contexts. Google provides far more results for Scottish country house than for either "Scottish estate houses" or "Estate houses in Scotland". The author of the page didn’t reply to my queries about why the title is as it is, and so I am now requesting this move. Relisted. BDD (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC) RGloucester (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Object: on the grounds given above - WP:PRECISION. Country houses in Scotland does not cover the entire topic. It is already a redirect here.—SabreBD (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But you did not explain how the current term is more precise… RGloucester (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I did. Sixteenth century Baronial houses are not country houses, but they are estate houses.--’SabreBD' (talk) 08:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But why are they "estate houses" and not "country houses"? Country houses usually have large estates, as they do in England. Yet we don’t call them "English estate houses". RGloucester (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - estate house could easily be misunderstood as a house on a council estate. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rather more commonly know as a council house. This sounds a particularly unlikely source of confusion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - As it says in the naming conventions, it should be named "things of Scotland" or (preferably) "things in Scotland", not "Scottish things". I’m unsure as to whether "country houses" or "estate houses" is better. --Vclaw (talk) 20:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was merely following the convention, as listed for the article English country house. In other words not "things" but "thing", as in the make up of the archetypal Scottish country house. It is known phrase. One wouldn’t use "Country houses of England", would one? Not at all. Because it refers to the "English" nature of the house, not its geographic location. The same applies to Scottish country houses, unless you’d like to go and request a move at English country house. RGloucester (talk) 21:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As the article says, it is not referring to a specific thing, or style of thing. It is referring to several different styles of houses, all of which are physically located in Scotland. And yes, the English country house article should be moved to match the naming conventions. --Vclaw (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is referring to a specific phenomenon, that of "estate houses", or country houses in common parlance, being built in Scotland. Regardless, one has to take common name into consideration. English country house is known and accepted phrase, that would not appear in any other form. The same applies to "Scottish country house". This, I’m sure, overrides those conventions in this specific case. RGloucester (talk) 23:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Estate houses in Scotland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Seabuckthorn (talk · contribs) 23:03, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: SabreBD (talk)

Hi! My review for this article will be here shortly. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 23:03, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great. Look forward to it.--SabreBD (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Architecture of estate houses in Scotland would be a more suitable title? I was expecting this to be a detailed overview of actual estate houses rather than a general summary of architecture!♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:01, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What would be included in a detailed overview? Or could you link to a similar type of article?--SabreBD (talk) 17:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was expecting the article before I clicked on it to be sort of a summary of country houses in Scotland, like a guide to them, not as comprehensive as the List but an article about actual individual notable houses rather than a general summary of architecture. Article looks great anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK I see where you are coming from. I will have to give that some thought - particularly whether there might be material for two articles.--SabreBD (talk) 07:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have given it considerable thought. I think it is legitimate for this article to be largely architectural. If there was another article (or if there is another article) that also dealt with wider issues, I would support moving this to Architecture of estate houses in Scotland.--SabreBD (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]