Talk:Ernest Hemingway/Archive 1

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Bronze Star Medal

The article should state "Hemingway was awarded the Bronze Star Medal" rather than "Hemingway was awarded a Bronze Star". "Bronze Star Medal" is the full and correct name of the medal - although "Silver Star" is correct and not "Siliver Star Medal". Under catagories "Recipients of the Bronze Star Medal" should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.172.223.128 (talk) 03:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

World Record

I have heard that Hemingway once held the world record for having caught the world's heaviest Marlin. Someone could verify this and add it to the article. I think it was the biggest tuna.

A clean well-lighted place

A critic of; A clean well-lighted place'

The short story, A clean well-lighted place, was first published by Hemingway in 1933 while living in Spain, during a worldwide great depression, and after he fought in the First World War. Ernest Hemingway’s writing is honest, simple, open-ended, and yet still provocative. The reason it is provocative, is not because it is complex or detailed, it is because the details are left to the reader to fill in the absent details. Hemingway leaves much of the detail up to the reader. There are no names of characters, no description of the café, there is nothing more than a simple story that the reader can interpret for himself. This type of writing gives a reader opportunity in many aspects; one could be to see himself. A clean well-lighted place is the essences of a man’s soul. A man’s life can be broken down into three simple phases in life. Each phase represents different point, values, needs, wants, and desires. What this short story really gives the reader is an opportunity to look at their own life. In this simple easy to read short story it seems that Hemmingway has left much of the imagery and description of characters up to the reader. All this emptiness forces the reader to fill the story with their own thoughts and ideas of what and where this story is taking place. The most interesting part of the story is not in the nothingness, although that does play an important part, or who is really saying what lines, rather it is in the three characters of men. Each represents a different point in one man’s life. Hemingway is giving the reader a chance to look at his own life in retrospect before he regrets what it may become one-day. The reader is given a young impatient waiter, an older waiter, and an eighty year old man with lots of money. This is the life cycle of a man’s life. The young waiter represents the first stage in a man’s life. Young men are more often impatient and unaffectionate of the world around them. They can be sloppy and immature many times. They care more about their wants and needs then the rest. This is seen twice once when the young man says about the old man; he has no regard for those who must work. The other time is when the young waiter is pouring the brandy and slopped it all over the place spilling it. The young man assumes everyone should be considerate of him, but does not care about how he treats others. The young waiter thinks he is more important. When many young Americans went to Europe to fight in the First World War they saw it as a glorious task and they were invincible. What they were doing was more important in their own eyes. After the war many of them had changed in ways they could not have anticipated. The older waiter represents the second and longest stage in a man’s life. A young man ceases to be young once he understands that there is more to his world then just his ideals. That he is not always right and controls nothing more than the time he spends in this world. This only happens when a man’s life is altered by forces stronger than his own, just as Hemingway’s was when he was injured in Italy. The older waiter is more understanding of the old man staying to drink and enjoy his life. He is in no rush because he has a greater understanding of life. This is obvious when the older waiter asks the younger waiter, why didn’t you let him stay and drink. Despite anything else what is important is that nothing else matters except respect of each other. This is the cardinal rule that the older waiter has come to understand. The older waiter has nothing left in life to prove he does not need to rush home or waste an hour doing something else he does not really need to do. All he has left to do in his life is his job, simple and easy. One day both of the waiters will become the old man. The old man represents the final stage in a man’s life. He represents the point that a man reaches when he has done all he can and has seen all he wants. The old man wants nothing more than to leave the world only to be rescued by his loved ones. The old man is clean and dignified despite the treatment of the young waiter he is tempered and only wishes to drink more. The old man has the young waiter fill his brandy glass telling the waiter a little more; the glass is the symbol for life. The glass is filled and overflows with brandy. The old man is telling the reader his life is full. It is not half empty or half full but fulfilled. When the young waiter refuses to serve the old man anymore the old man leaves without becoming angry or upset, showing the young waiter that nothing more than integrity and respect matter. The young waiter shows how selfish he is to the reader. Hemingway is depicting one man’s life through the three men in the story. Each has something to give but nothing to lose; each of the men is telling the reader about their own life depending on what point they are at in their life cycle. Each man represents a stage in a man’s life; one of youth with the whole world before him, another who has lived long enough to know nothing else matters than how you treat others, and the last one is the old man who has lived his life ready to leave this world with dignity. The openness of this story allows the reader to place himself in each man in the story at his own local café, pub, bar, or bodega. This opportunity gives the reader the chance not to make the same mistakes that lead to a lonely life. The young waiter is so selfish eventually he will lose his wife becoming the older waiter because it is too late for him to reconcile and finally becoming the old man in the café waiting for death to take him. This leaves the reader with an understanding that in life all anyone has is a small window in time, and in that window is an opportunity. What a person does with a given opportunity is up to them. That is what Hemmingway is telling the reader and the proof is in one simple question, what is an hour?

Needs a rewrite also

Understanding Hemingway

Throughout Hemingway’s work there are reoccurring themes that revolve around life. It is this reoccurring theme that dominates his work and it is what makes it so important in day’s life. This theme is also what makes Hemingway’s work ageless. The agelessness of his writing makes it easy for any person from any generation to slip themselves inside the story. Because the stories leave out in-depth detail about individual and scenery one could place themselves as any character as well. What Hemingway’s is telling his audience is about life, just as other critics, David Daiches did in 1941 and Bern Oldsey did in 1963, have stated.

Hemingway’s writing is simple and allows the audience to follow it and to fill in the details to fit the reader so that way they feel they are in the story. The structure of the sentences is calming and easy flowing, giving the reader the feel that they need to continue on the story.

A Clean Well Lighted-Place, The Snows of Kilimanjaro, and The Old man and The Sea are perfect examples of Hemingway’s lean yet complex work. Each one presents the audience with unique characters. All are men either searching out something or coming to grips with a part of their life coming to an end. A clean well lighted place gives the reader three men each at different stages of life. The young waiter is brazen and cares for no one except what he wants. The older waiter is understanding and shows compassion for others. The old man in the story has lived his life and accomplished everything he wants in life. Each of these men can be seen as the different stages of life in one man’s life. But, they can also be seen as something more. The young waiter is the man in Kilimanjaro who is injured by his own fault. Because he cared for no one else, not even his wife who loves him so dearly, he loses everything. It is in the last moments in his life that he realizes what truly matters. The older waiter is the old man in The Old man and The Sea. He is the old man because he understood what is important to life and realizes that life is a struggle and in life man must look beyond today and always push forward. The old man is a mentor to a young boy to teach him that humans cannot hesitate. The audience is able to see themselves as the boy since in a way they all being mentored by the old man and Hemingway. From the trials and tribulations that Hemingway went through in life he is attempting through his writings to warn men of the faults and vices and focused of the virtues in life. The Old Man and the Sea tells the reader that even in defeat there is some sort of victory. It is what a man makes out of life that determines what happens in his own life. Simply said combine all the works the main theme is that in life there are more important things then war, victory, self-interest, momentary pleasures. It’s the long term part of man’s life that is important. At any given moment it could all be swept away and in that everything that was thought to be important is gone and all that is left is what was real to everyone. The reader must ask themselves a question about life, their actions, and Ultimately each one of use will face the same fate with death. Not one person will ever know for sure when they will die. All Hemingway was telling the world is, do not take this life for granted. Enjoy it for what you have and when the opportunity presents itself be ready to act just as the old man did when he lowered his six lines in the sea to create his own luck. When humans think of life we all attempt to quantify it with either a cup half full or climbing a mountain or even attempting to catch the big fish to prove we are still worthy to ourselves and the world. In that all readers can gain the respect that Hemingway deserves for all his work. That is why he published many of his short stories together in a single book called, The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories. Hemingway’s experiences throughout his life gave him a more understanding of humanity and life and published the stories with the hope that others would see the truth about their own life and not to make the mistakes of the previous generations. It is the hope of every generation that the next one will be better than the previous one and Hemingway shows the world the truth about humanity instead of sugar coating it. At the end the audience interprets the stories their own way, this interpretation leads one to conclude that maybe there is more to the story then just what Hemingway was writing and that there are deeper meanings for everyone depending on their point in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway:_The_Collected_Stories

one more

Ernest Hemingway’s legacy

Key West celebrates Hemingway

Ernest Hemingway spent ten years of his life living on the Key West Island. While there he spent his time writing some of the greatest classics, which include “The Snows of Kilimanjaro”. He spent much of his time, while living in Key West, at his favorite watering hole Sloppy Joes’ bar. Each year Key West hold’s a celebration in honor of Ernest Hemingway, named Hemingway days festival. Throughout the celebration members of the community come together to honor one of the greatest writers in American history, in various ways, the celebration last over a few days culminating in a look-alike contest at Sloppy Joes. During the Hemingway days, there is a short story contest fishing contest, along with readings from authors. The 2008 celebration included some members from Hemingway’s family, his grandson Edward Hemingway and granddaughter Lorain Hemingway. His grandson is a writer and illustrator and used the celebrations to showcase his new children’s book. Edward said while at the festival “I imagine my grandfather would get a kick out of the festival. The spirit of his life is here in Key West.’’ http://www.miamiherald.com/577/story/611618.html

Minor typo

In the penultimate line in the introduction, the word 'considerable' is misspelled.

The links from this page used to be Ernest Hemingway/subpages - they've now been moved to their own pages, but this isn't appropriate, because they are sections of a long essay rather than, for example, book or story titles. When I saw this had been done at first, I said I was going to move all the content from those pages onto this page, but I didn't realise how *long* they all were. I'm not sure sticking them all here is going to be very useful. As the entire text is available on the web (the link is given in the article, it's licensed under the GNU FDL), and does not in any case seem particularly encyclopaedic, how about just giving an external link to it, and deleting the text itself from the wikipedia? That will get rid of all these inappropriately named pages and avoid the false impression that we have a decent article about Hemingway. --Camembert

Interesting idea. Yes, these pages give a false impression. I think I'll go download the pages so I have a backup. (I've been meaning to work on them for quite awhile now). --KQ

I agree with Camembert. Jeronimo 14:16 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

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If Anonymous has found some GFDL material online, and we are maintaining a duplicate, I'd like to have a link to the original. Over the course of time, our version will fork away from theirs. --Ed Poor

pointed out that the malaspina link is the same GFDL document, actually copied from Wikipedia (look carefully)

Sorry, looking carefully is not my strong suit. Which is the original source: the Wikipedia, with an echo at malaspina and elsewhere? Or is Malaspina the original, allowing us to copy from them under GFDL? --Ed Poor

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I've gone to the Malaspina page, and at the bottom there is an almost illegible reference to the material being adapted from Wikipedia, but without any mention of GNU-FDL. Elsewhere, under Terms of Service, I found

16. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS TO CONTENT

Members acknowledge that content, including but not limited to text, photographs, video, graphics, software, music, sound, or other material contained in either sponsor advertisements or emails presented to Member by BigMailBox.com or its advertisers (collectively referred to as "Content"), is protected under the laws of copyright, trademark, patent, unfair competition or other applicable laws. Therefore, you are only permitted to use this Content as expressly authorized by BigMailBox.com, Malaspina.com or the advertisers associated with the Malaspina.com service. Members may not copy, reproduce, distribute, or create derivative works from this Content without the express written authorization to do so by BigMailBox.com, Malaspina.com or the advertiser.

The other link is to a general german language freenet.de page which makes no direct mention of Hemingway. It's not helpful at all, and probably should be deleted.

The earliest entry in the history of this article is for May 12, 2001, and the article at that point includes a warning from Larry to the contributor about the GNU-FDL consequences.

Malaspina.com seems to have some link with Malaspina University College of Nanaimo, BC. The Hemingway material is not the only thing they have adapted from Wikipedia. While I was looking for how they reference other material I found that they also adapted the Michel Foucault, Mavis Gallant and the F. Scott Fitzgerald articles, but with functional links.

I don't know where this is leading, but assuming that the Hemingway article is properly on Wikipedia, I do have some concerns about how these articles are adapted, and how our freely available material might be used by commercial interests who leave the illusion that they own the copyrights. I say this here because this is where I found the issue. I should probably move these comments to the mailing list. Eclecticology 19:26 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

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I think this page should be drastically redone; that much is obvious! This is what I propose:

1. Go through the subpages and move all useful material here, without deleting from subpages;
2. Go through subpages and remove all material irrelevant to the subject (which on Spain in Flames is everything after the first paragraph).

After this is done, I think we'll have a number of good articles and none of the above issues, as they relate to this article. --Sam

By the way, I realise that this will get very long, but once it's all here, we can chop it down and put in logical sections which will help break it up .--Sam

It's one thing to love Hemingway (or anyone else) and write a perhaps too lengthy article about them. But, it is unacceptable to allow crap like this to remain with unfullfilled promises such as Sam saying: once it's all here, we can chop it down and put in logical sections which will help break it up. What is worse, this massive amount of stuff is poorly done, often repeating itself, and lacking fact and proper research. This is the kind of garbage that DESTROYS Wikipedia's validity! .....DW

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This text was an early contribution from IIRC Malcolm Farmer, and was added around April 2001. It was originally a paper submitted for the author's class (maybe it wasn't Malcolm Farmer). It *used* to be archived on the original author's homepage, but now I can't find the original author's page. KQ

Maybe it was User:SoniC who contributed it instead? this page lists Andreas Flack as the author, but it's under the subfolder sonics_homepage, and the revision history of Hemingway shows the earliest edit to be a minor edit by SoniC. KQ

Hi!

Might be a bit late, but I just discovered this discussion and wanted to confirm that this artilce was originally by me. It was written as a thesis for school and used to be available at my now-defunct freenet page. I still hjave it somewhere on my disk. -- de:Benutzer:SoniC

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To all Hemingway experts out there: Did Hemingway ever write a novel, play, poem, letter, note, shopping list or e-mail entitled Young and Innocent? No? So where does that bloody title come from? From the old Hemingway subpages? --KF 15:30 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the title came because it was a header in our biography of Hemingway -- still is, in fact. For some reason, the biography was once spread out into subpages, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore, at least not with such unhelpful titles. Having Young and Innocent redirect to Ernest Hemingway once made sense for backwards compatibility, but that page can now be dedicated to the Hitchcock film. -- Toby 07:53 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

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This is a featured article? I can't believe it. It reeks like a third-rate potboiler biography written for sensationalism. This must rank either as one of the great jokes of Wikipedia. Not only not a good article but a terrible one.

Bon mot Extracts:

His illusions were shattered, but the experiences gathered were invaluable, and, what's more, everything turned out to be all right in the end, the good ones won, his wounds healed completely and Agnes was a mere "Schwärmerei" (Burgess (9.); page 24).

How this article got past the NPOV jury of at the Featured is anybody's guess. - Mandel 13:38, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Early critical interplay

"crude and pretentious behavior"?!?!? - biased pov. This section needs to be made more objective and also to list credible sources. E.g. "Eastman's criticism consisted of the suggestion that Hemingway give up his lonely, tight-lipped stoicism and write about contemporary social affairs. Hemingway did so for at least a short time; his article Who Murdered the Vets? for New Masses, a leftist magazine, and To Have and Have Not displayed a certain heightened social awareness." Who says so? Give me a source. Is this original research? Alcmaeonid 22:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not remove the entire section? It's not really relevant to the biography and consists mainly of anecdotal slander. DriveThru210 (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm giving notice of my intent to remove this section. I tagged it last Sept. to provide opportunity to raise it an to objective standard. This has not been done. I see no merit here and frankly can find no way to re-work it into a constructive addition. If anyone feels this section has merit and should remain please offer up your thoughts here. -Alcmaeonid (talk) 16:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

comment

The influence section claims that the sea is the central image in the work of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I have read all of Marquez's novels, several of them in Spanish, and find very little evidence for this very big claim. If you substitute shit for sea, you might have something. This is not to say that Hemingway had no influence on Marquez; he did. Just not in the way that it is stated in the article.--Johnedwineckert 22:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

older entries

HEMINGWAY WAS BORN IN 1898, not 1899!!! 192.235.8.2 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Born in 1899, some confusion because he added a year to age to gain employment with the Toronto Star at 17. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.56.108 (talk) 12:56, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Did anyone notice the ernest hemingway writing on wikipedia this morning? everyting was in gangster talk! It was hilarious!

addition/comment

I agree that the above paragraph "all right in the end" is somewhat POV and definitely could be written better. Too far out of my field for me to have a bash, how about the detractors improve it a little? Mat-C 16:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

comment

I agree that this article should be completely rewritten. It’s full of awkward phrasing, empty phrases and downright cheesiness. The writer often lapses into a colloquial, dumbed-down magazine style of writing which is inappropriate for an online encyclopedia. For example, “Hemingway Up Close And Personal” as a chapter or subtitle is an awful cliché that just doesn’t belong.

Another example of this magazine style: “Sadly, Hemingway couldn't use this attitude in life. Maybe the pressure simply was too high. The general public never knew the real Ernest Hemingway, a man with a man's problems.” This sounds more like a high school English teacher trying to convince his teenaged students that Hemingway was a total dude than it does an excerpt from a featured article in an encyclopedia.

“A Farewell to Arms” is described as “a kind of ambulance driver's wet dream.” Later in the paragraph: “And yet... even wet dreams come on different artistic levels.” This is just plain crass.

“It [the ambivalence of death and violence] had done some good, and taught him priceless philosophies.” The article is littered with empty phrases like this. They need to be weeded out.

After reading The Old Man And The Sea, I came to wikipedia for some info about the author, and what I found horified me, this is a terrible page, amaturely written, with little information, and overly cliched. Needs serious editing.

the code?

Shouldn't there be something resembling a bit of criticism perhaps? I mean, shouldn't there at least be a mention of his code of manliness? When I teach Papa, I make a point of his being a sort of existentialist -- not much evidence of that in this article.--Peccavimus 06:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree with this person...I believe that this article is very helpful for the student environment. This article helps the student body for working purposes...If we show the article with manliness and other idea made by this person...then there woulnt be any point in looking at this article now would it?? I belive that we should keep this aticle for further students who want to get a grade A on their projects.

I agree with Paccavimus. Hemingway's code hero is a powerful theme throughout his works, and to leave it out of the article would be like omitting the Civil War from a biography of Abraham Lincoln. Also, to understand Hemingway's works and life, you must address his existential philosophy. To actually earn "a grade A on their projects" students should learn these vastly important aspects of Hemingway's style and life.

question

Can someone pls recommend a (yes, also partly critical) book-length biography of Hemingway, please. BTW, why does the article currently cite Döblin and Kundera in its bibliography section?

shotgun?

Can anyone provide a source for Hemingway's use of a Civil War pistol for his suicide? I'm sure I've read somewhere it was his favourite shotgun. Padraic 00:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

I have a page from my teacher with a picture taken by Robert Capa of him and Gary Cooper along with a short article on him. The article states "Too macho to abide his burly body's aging, Hemingway ended his own life with a shotgun." Followed by the signature of Robert Capa is just Magnum. Magnum may be a magazine or book publisher of some sort. --Exander 10:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"Hemingway was twice discovered alone with a shotgun, and on the way to the hospital, where he was readmitted in April 1961 because of his suicidal behavior, he tried to walk into the whirling propeller of a plane on the airport runway. To his wife’s dismay, he was nevertheless released again at the end of June. On July 2, 1961, he shot himself with a double-barreled shotgun in the foyer of his home in Ketchum, Idaho" from Lisa Tyler, Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway Greenwood Press, Westport, CT. 2001. See page 14. Stumps 10:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW ... the article states that it was Hemingway's father who used the pistol. Stumps 10:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The sentence fragment "he committed suicide by way of shotgun to the face." seems quite clunky to me. -- Terry J. Gardner (talk) 03:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The shotgun he used to kill himself was a 12 bore Boss & Co Side by Side Shotgun

Hemingway's Catholicism

"Hemingway divorced Hadley Richardson and married Pauline Pfeiffer in 1927. Because of his Roman Catholic faith, some conflicts of conscience arose, but these were eventually overcome." -- This quotation is somewhat misleading. Hemingway was raised Congregationalist; his family were descended from New England Puritan stock. Hemingway did not convert to Roman Catholicism until he married Pauline Pfeiffer, who was RC. Hemingway's subsequent divorces would indicate that his devotion to the faith was irregular at best.

- A small clarificaion on your comment: Hemingway was raised Episcopalian, not Congregationalist. His father's family was Congregationalist, but her grew up in his maternal grandfather's, where the active religion was Episcopalian since Hemingway's grandfather, Ernest Hall, had immigrated to the US from England. (His paternal grandparents were also English immigrants but were not members of the Church of England.) Due to the infludence of Ernest Hall and Grace Hall Hemingway, Ernest was raised in a fairly religious Episcopalian family that sung hymns every morning, attended church regularly, etc. Young Hemingway sang in the church choir, as did all of his siblings, as it was led by his mother!

Fabricationary

Category: Ernest Hemingway?

Should Ernest Hemingway recieve his own category? --Blue387 09:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now that he did, should we move all other categories to that category? Common Man 09:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

49 stories

I added a section about the Forty-Nine Stories which, strangely, was not present. Yet english is not my native language and maybe you want to include minor grammatical corrections or links. Please note that I took an entirely different standpoint than those that the contributors who wrote the other parts of the article did, and that was a bit too focused, at times, on irrelevancies. My assumption is that when you write about a writer, you ought to love him/her, not to be _too_ diffident of him/her, or focused only on the critics, leaving the good things as residual trailers. That's not a good formula to let a writer be known by those who may not know him/her yet. --UnitedScripters

49 Stories

I'm sorry, I felt I should delete much of the section on the short stories. The language was simply too confused (and confusing).

49 stories

To me it is fine, only you have deleted so much that it is no longer recognizable: what you have done is not to make my commentary less "confused and confusing": what you have done is bringing down the level of the section dedicated to the 49 stories to the level of this whole page about Hemingway, which not even one single commentator here missed to qualify as unidsputably low and unworthy of wilkipedia.

We do not know whom you are but if you are the person who took care of this page, you have made by GENERAL CONSENSUS such inferior a job here, that you are the least qualified to edit contributions, especially because you seem to find gossip more relvant than serious observations. Your idea of "confusing and confused" means this: confusing, namely whatever doesn't vilify Hemingway with absurd prattle, and confused namely whoever doesn't fit your limited intellectual scope which, clearly enough, gets lost as soon as a speech goes beyond the scope of the grunt.

I didn't dare delete your own essays about Hemingway, I just ADDED my own section. I see you dared much more, though dwelling in much lower intellectual places...

Rest assured anway, while you are about to delete this comment by me too as it becomes you, that it is not one section of yours that needs to be ameneded here, but it is this WHOLE page about Hemingway that should be trashed and recycled as confusing and confused.

The moon suggests, before commenting on Hemingway be sure you have read him and understood him, for the only thing that emerges from your "essay" about Hemingway is, I insit by GENERAL consensus as these commentaries prove, that you know about Hemingway as much as I know about nuclear physics: NOTHING. UnitedScripters

Major edit: June 11 2005

I have been bold and made a major edit today, one that I've been working on for some time. It was largely organizational and for cleaning purposes, something this article needed badly.

I'm not entirely finished with everything I want to do with the edit, but I think its status now in format and rendering is thoroughly improved. --DanielNuyu 06:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well done! Mandel 17:49, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

The Dangerous Summer

I'm no expert on Hemingway but a cursive look at internet sources showed that The Dangerous Summer was written for the Life Magazine in 1960 but it was published in book form in 1985.

iceberg method

Hi, I didn't find anything about Hemingway's famous "iceberg method" of writing. You can read about it for example here [1] , we learned it at school and I find it very be¨neficial for understanding what makes his work so special.

"Many believe it was Hemingway's unique writing style that made him famous. Hemingway himself described it as the "iceberg method" (Wilson). About 1/8 of an iceberg is actually visible above water while 7/8 is below water. On the surface, his writing seems simple, but 7/8 of the story is under the simple surface."

from page http://www.ncteamericancollection.org/litmap/hemingway_ernest_id.htm

If you think this is worth of contribution, let me know at my discussion page. Or contribute it yourself, it might be better if native speaker (who has actually read his books) contributes it:) Thanks! --Paxik 13:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Headline funkiness

Something odd was going on, and the Table of Contents was followed by the Headline "Headline" twice in a row. I deleted one and renamed the other to "Background," but feel free to change it.

Hmmm Forgot to logon. This is me.

Odd Grammar and Syntax

It would seem from the odd syntax, word usage and grammar that some Native Spanish speaker is inserting/deleting sections on Hemingway's relationships with the extreme left...

spanish civil war

Does any one know anything about Ernest Hemingway’s involvement in the spanish civil war?129.96.120.254 02:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

See new additions El Jigüe 12-23-05

tell me how i do this

Cuba did not confiscate US Property

The US unlike Canada for example refused to accept payments offerd by Cuba !!!

Sure, since the offer to pay by Cuba was based on fraudulent pre-revolutionary tax assessments which amounted to about five cents on the dollar.

Abercrombie & Fitch

I've heard the story a few places (including edited out sections here) that the gun Hemingway shot himself with was purchased at Abercrombie & Fitch. Can anyone confirm or clearly refute this? And before you just say that's utterly ridiculous, check out Fitch's history, up until the late '80s they were a sporting goods store. It was a perfectly good place to buy a gun. Zaklog 05:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It's true, but I don't have a source ATM

Faulkner Rivalry

Something simply must be said about Hemmingway's rivalry with William Falkner. My literature class emphisized this rilvalry, though did not go into many specifics on it.

I disagree. Hemingway is notorious for having rivalries with practically every writer of his era. Even if he didn't have an actual personal argument with someone as he did with Stein, Fitzgerald, Dos Passos,...he rarely if ever praised the work of other authors, and infact in my opinion went out of his way to trash just about everyone's writing. The only writer I know that he praised AND NEVER CHANGED HIS TUNE ABOUT is Knut Hamsun. The article says he admires Isak Dinesen, but I had not heard that except from this article.Saucybetty 01:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Hemingway article could once again become featured

Hemingway was known for an economy of words. He would write something and then go back through it and distill it down to its essence. There are a lot of great thoughts and concepts in this article; however, someone needs to pay tribute to Hemingway by doing same. Hokeman 17:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Alcoholism

I would like to see a section on this or for it to be integrated into the article. Alcohol played a significant part in Hemingway's life. Fitzgerald was also a lifelong alcoholic and it arguably affected his work and life. It definatly played a role in Hem's twilight years and suicide. Rizla 03:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

advertising?

When talking about Michael Palin's book

"The book is available at his website"

sounds like hidden advertising to me

feel free to disagree

Another Rewrite?

Thre is some very good stuff in this article, but is very obviously the product of several authors. There is repetition some odd chronology. This is easy for me to say however as I am not the chap qualified to do it.... Epeeist smudge 11:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

ive tried to fix the chronology & style of the first half of the article as best as I can. When I get around to it i'll edit the last part.. hopefully some others will want to help out. Once that is done I think it will be ready for feature status Rizla 23:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

where is the nobel prize succession box?

Sources in text?

Hey, someone did a great job of giving sources. Only problem is it's in the text and not at the end of the page, and for some reason I can't figure out what goes where with it. (My brain refuses to work today.) That may need to be fixed... It takes up a lot of room, and could easily be moved by someone who currently has a fully functioning brain. Darned allergies... Russia Moore 02:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Gertrude Stein

It says that Gertrude Stein critized Hemingway, saying that he copied her style as weel as Sherwood Anderson's. But it also says that Gertrude Stein was his mentor...

Vandalized

WTF "Heavy alcholoism and CRACK ADDICTION"???

Good Article?!

Nominated as a Good Article? That's insane. This is a woefully inadequate article with large portions missing and no coherency in relation to time. It jumps around so much it's difficult to find a specific bit of information... Needs to be improved and I don't have the information to improve it, as evidenced by the fact that I came to this article in the first place...

Please, someone: help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonesque (talk • contribs)

What are the large portions missing? What section(s) don't follow the timeline? If you could offer some more constructive advice.. I would be happy to help fix it. Rizla 15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Height

ARe you sure he was six foot? I remember reading, in a biogrpahy, that Scott Fitzgerald (who was five foot eight) was six inches shorter than him.

He was shorter by a couple of inches than Gary Cooper, was was either 6'3" or 6'2 1/2".

"Catholic" view of suicides going to Hell

This not a Catholic view, see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2283. As a general rule, the Church never officially condemns any individual person as certainly in Hell, no matter what are the circumstances of their death. The fate of every soul is finally left up to the Mercy of God, who alone has the right to judge them (though some souls are revealed through the process of canonization as (along with many others) certainly in Heaven). It is even a Catholic hope that no one is in Hell (see CCC #1058 and the work of Hans Urs von Balthasar).

70.226.157.65 04:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)James Stanley

Add EH to the winners of the pulitzer prize category?

does anyone know how to do this?

• done. —ExplorerCDT 20:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Short story title markup

Is there a reason why the short story titles in this article are italicised, rather than bearing quotation marks as short story titles traditionally do in English (and as the Manual of Style recommends)? Didn't want to make a fairly significant change to the article before asking here if there'd been discussion about it before. Binabik80 16:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wives/Romances

As of my reading today there is no mention of his first wife Hadley Richardson. Pauline Pfeiffer is only mentioned as Pauline in the beginning of the article, not gaining a surname til the bottom of the page. Although Martha Gellhorn is mentioned there is no mention of Mary Walsh either. Seeing as Hemingway was famous for his marriages and affairs, I find it incredible that these women barely receive mention. I think this is because the article is not strong on chronological order, but focuses more on topics like "short stories", etc. Each woman and the life that she shared with Hemmingway helped to shape his art. His children except his son Patrick aren't even mentioned in the article (and patrick doesn't even make an appearance til the bottom of the page)...some how he had grandchildren Mariel and Margaux with out engendering their parents? This article needs MAJOR reworking, and not just on these points. saucybetty 14:18, September 16, 2006 (UTC)

I took a long break from this article and now have came back to find an entire section of life in france and Hemingway's early life from 1918-1935ish completely deleted from the article. I will go back and search through the edits but this is ridiculous that it got removed. Rizla 23:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Upon further inspection it looks like it was vandalism from SEPTEMBER 7. It has been restored.Rizla 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Rizla, the article looks fantastic! It's like night and day from when I first posted the complaint. I think the format is much easier to read. I don't know if these are all your changes but I just wanted to say thanks.Saucybetty 01:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Problems with Early Life

Some revisions need to be done on this part. I know some of this is vandalism but I know very little about Hemingway so I'm not sure if he actually had a condition and this is just written sloppy or if the entire thing about his ears is made up.

Ernest Hemingway was born on July 21, 1899, in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. As a little boy they called him elephant ears because of his condition. he was ridiculed extensivly and claimed that from age 6 to 15 he cried himself to sleep. He began as a highway man who got in cars to eat people. He loved cows.

Deep tendu 00:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Ernest Hemingway

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Shot

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28. has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway.

There is a new analysis of this story and Hemingway / Castro relationships posted by a friend of mine at [2]. El Jigue 12-9-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Another mention of Hemingway

In the Family Guy Movie "Stewie Griffith, The Untold Story" the dog Brian is shown in heaven chatting with Kurt Cobain, Ernest Hemingway, and Vincent Van Gogh, all of whom shot themselves. Brian provides comic relief when he says that he got in the trash can and ate some chocolate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.15.245.78 (talk) 06:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

See, that's worth a mention. I was bothered by some 12 year old girl mentioning that Pete Wentz named his dog after Hemmingway, and talks about him on his online blog. How is that fucking relevant??? Someone with the ability, please remove it.

Review for re-promoting to featured article status?

Diff between current article and the article as it stood in June of 2004, when Wikipedia:Featured Article status was revoked. [3]

The article has been largely rewritten since its demotion. Someone care to point out specific reasons why the article should not be promoted back to featured article status? Be nice to see it listed here reasonably soon: Wikipedia:Former_featured_articles#Former_featured_articles_that_have_been_re-promoted. MrZaius^talk 00:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The first step should be WikiProject Biography/Peer review, IMO. -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

distasteful description of suicide

I find the line "he committed suicide by way of shotgun to the face" in the first paragraph and later in the suicide paragraph to be excessive and distasteful. Were it changed to "he committed suicide by way of shotgun" I think that anyone that cares how he shot himself would understand that he did it in the face. This line made me immediately think this article to be of low quality. Jon-emery 15:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC) (J. Emery Hemingway)

At first, I disagreed with you, but after careful consideration, I think that you are right. The current edit is better. Firewall62 (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I think it's enough to say "...committed suicide with a shotgun" and leave it at that. The prepositional bits "by way of shotgon" or "in the face" are (at best) wordy and at worst redundant and salacious. Geeman 01:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Dreiser?

How was Theodore Dreiser an influence on Hemingway, as the infobox says he was? Don't get me wrong; I enjoy them both, but their styles (both in terms of actual words and sentences, and the stories being told) are almost complete opposites.

Castro-Hemingway (moved from article)

He also lost Finca Vigía [4], his estate outside Havana, Cuba that he had owned for over twenty years, and was forced to go into exile in Ketchum, Idaho, when the conflict in Cuba began to escalate. Hemingway was under surveillance by the American government for his residence and activities in Cuba.

File:Hemingway und Castro.jpg

Hemingway and Castro shake hands; 1959. This image is discussed by Lynn (2005)

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway [5].

I don't think the source for this section can count as a reliable source in Wikipedia terms. The section is only sourced with a blogspot devoted specifically and solely to proving that "Castro-Hemingway-not-friends" (as its name goes) or that "hemingway-castro-foes"(as the web address is called). The author is obviously not a Hemingway expert, he is an "original researcher", working on his own with documents and sources. He apparently opposes mainstream biographers in some respects - for example, he criticises Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death, and goes as far as to imply that Hemingway was driven into suicide by Castro's confiscation of his estate! So I believe that if info about this is to be included, it should be from mainstream biographies rather than blogspots, forum postings or anything of that sort. --91.148.159.4 15:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i've restored the section with better sources from pbs and a biography page Rizla 19:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, but note that these sources don't say the same thing. (In fact, the biography page says almost the reverse as far as Hemingway's relations with Castro are concerned). So I've changed the text somewhat. --91.148.159.4 14:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

In response, although I know that Larry Daley the author of that piece has read Hemingway extensively there is no claim to that he has expertise Hemingway literature (he is professor emeritus at Oregon State University . However, with respect to Cuba that is a completely different kettle of fish, for Larry Daley a descendent of Major General Calixto Garcia has written extensively on Cuban history and is veteran of the War Against Batista in the Sierra Maestra.

In addition readers should know that Manolo Castro is widely believed to have been murdered by Fidel Castro (the two Castros were not related), Manolo or more correctly Manuel Castro was Minister of Sports in Cuba (in a democratically elected and non-Batista influenced administration) and was such a close friend of Hemingway, that he permitted the E.H. to referee an important boxing match in the old Palacio de los Deportes (which is where the so called Plaza de la Revolucion (originally built by the Dictator Batista as La Plaza Civica, and precisely where the statue to General Garcia stands today). Manolo Castro was known to have been very honest that is why Hemingway (in "The Shot") mentions he had but a few coins in his pocket when he was killed.

Batista in his second dictatorship, then built a second Palacio de los Deportes, where among other events Daley was held prisoner by Castro, along with some of the 300,000 Cubans that were arrested during the Bay of Pigs invasion. BTW Daley does not criticize "Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death" but agrees with Meyers. Daley also does not allege that Hemingway's suicide is caused singly by the loss of La Vigia. One should also take into account Hemingway’s reporting during the Spanish Civil War, when he was friends with Herbert Matthews and broke friendship with John Dos Passos, to understand the full disillusionment that Hemingway felt at that time. The FBI’s interest in Hemingway was caused by his relationships with Spanish Civil War exiles/veterans who were involved with him during WWII; and had suddenly reappeared when Castro gained power; among them were Enrique Lister, who Hemingway makes allusion to in “For Whom the Bell Tolls.” Also reappearing at that time in Cuba were the Italian assassin and Senator Vittorio Vitale (Comandante Contreras in Spain), Alberto Bayo, and Francisco Ciutat de Miguel; some or all of these were known to Hemingway for the murderous killers they were. Thus it is suggested that that before any decision is made to remove this mention again, that the Daley piece which contains an annotated version of all pertinent parts of "The Shot" be read. One should also note that this view of “The Shot” (as noted in the Daley piece) is not original to Daley but to a number others before him.

Thus I have inserted:

The official Cuban government account is that it was left to the Cuban government, which has made it into a museum devoted to the author. This would make the Hemingway property unique among all other US property confiscated at that time. Joel Millman in The Wall Street Journal estimates that that “Castro regime today takes in at least $500,000 a year through the franchise…” . An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway, very strongly suggests that Hemingway, used an unnamed character as a “Black-face beard” to narrate the 1948 murder of his friend “Manolo” Castro by Fidel Castro .

I suggest that critics read the “The shot” before eliminating this topic; and then rather than removing contribute other citations to this effect. El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that this analysis of the story, including its having been "long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway", isn't attributed to an expert biographer, just to a personal blog. There are very strict policies here regarding these things - see WP:NOR, WP:RS etc. As for what Daley claims and who he disagrees with, I stand by what I said. --91.148.159.4 22:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've moved this from the whole bit from the article again:

However, the Hemingway account "The Shot" is used by Cabrera Infante and others as evidence of conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro dating back to 1948 and the killing of "Manolo" Castro a friend of Hemingway.

Concerning Cabrera Infante: first, I don't see how this emigree fiction writer is a reliable source for either Hemingway or Castro; second, Cabrera Infante doesn't make Daley's claim at all. He doesn't speak of a "conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro", and doesn't discuss Hemingway's attitude towards the event: he just asserts that that was the murder that inspired "The Shot". As for the other source, the quote available does not clearly make the disputed claim either. The quote is "For example, the assassination of Manolo Castro is retold by alluding to Hemingway's "The Shot,…". This can mean anything, seems to be a retelling of somebody 's retelling, and doesn't even prove that a serious Hemingway/history scholar has identified the murder in "The Shot", let alone made conclusions about the possible relations between Hemingway and Castro. And - as for my personal opinion on the issue (which is, of course, irrelevant), all of this is just too far-fetched and speculative. --91.148.159.4 23:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently 91.148.159.4 is a Bulgarian especialist not an expert on Cuba, since to one familiar with the Cuba of that period the murder victim is obviously Manolo Castro and the putative assassin is Fidel Castro. 91.148.159.4 defies reason when he states that Cabrera Infante doesn't speak of a "conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro", when it is clear from the Cabrera Infante citation that this author believes that Fidel Castro killed Manolo Castro. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

One notes that 91.148.159.4 apparent only contribution to the Hemingway article is the repeated removal of this topic. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Did he break the Geneva Conventions?

In the German article it says that he killed at least one German POW, but I don't find anything about it in this much longer english article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.83.137.209 (talk) 14:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Adding a Link To Ernest Hemingway

Hello, I have a non-commercial blog on Ernest hemingway's Paris years. It roughly follows A Moveable Feast - the content if not the exact chronology. It is still being added to and improved. It is: [6] I wonder if it could be included in the notes at the end of the Hemingway article. Thank you, Paul E. Stolle Nikon101 03:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Marlene Dietrich letters

• Kansas City Star2007 (accessed 5-5-07) Flirting, writ large letters between Ernest Hemingway and Marlene Dietrich reveal volumes correspondence. The Kansas City Star (Kansas City, Missouri) | Date: 4/8/2007 http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-105050824.html “Last Monday 30 letters from Hemingway to Dietrich were opened to the public. Dietrich's daughter, Maria Riva, had given them a few years ago to the JFK Library's Ernest Hemingway Collection, asking that they be kept under wraps until this year.”

This is interesting because the father of Dietrich's (first?) daughter (Maria Rivas?) was Otto Katz a famous communist spy master:

• Film Museum Berlin 2000 (accessed 5-5-07) Newsletter No.16 October, 27th 2000 http://www.marlene.com/news16.pdf.” …And then she became pregnant. …Marlene plainly told Otto [Katz] that he was the father of the child she bore on December 12, 1924.”

• Cockburn Claud 2006 (accessed 3-29-07) Scenes from the Spanish Civil War. Counterpunch August 1, 2006 http://www.counterpunch.org/claud08012006.html “Otto Katz -- who was now internationally known as Andre Simon -- was a propagandist of genius. He had started his working life as cashier of a theater in Teplitz, where Marlene Dietrich worked at some very early age. Katz -- whether truthfully or untruthfully, I do not know -- always claimed to have been the first husband of Marlene Dietrich. I do know that whereas in every other connection you could call him a liar, hypocrite and ruffian of every description without his turning a hair, if you appeared to doubt this assertion about Marlene he would fly into a passion, white with rage. It is true that he made love to every good-looking woman he met and was a great deal more than averagely successful. He was a middle-sized man with a large, slightly cadaverous bead in which the skull bones were unusually prominent. He had large melancholy eyes, a smile of singular sweetness and an air of mystery -- a mystery into which he was prepared to induct you, you alone, because be loved and esteemed you so highly.”

• “Tory Historian” 2007 (accessed 3-29-07) What is successful propaganda? - 2 The blog of the Conservative History Group and the Conservative History Journal Sunday, February 11, 2007 http://conservativehistory.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-is-successful-propaganda-2.html “The Brown Book” was probably written largely by Willi’s henchman and probably NKVD agent, the Czech Communist Otto Katz, who may well have been involved later on in Masaryk’s “defenestration”. Subsequently, the grateful Communist government of Czechoslovakia put him on trial together with Rudolf Slánský in the great show trial of 1952. (Incidentally, the trials of the tortured and pressurized accused were filmed and shown. Their self-abasement was made public at the time and later.) Katz, the ruthless manipulator and brilliant propaganda writer, was accused of Zionism and espionage, confessed to all his “crimes” and begged to be executed as he had no right to live. His masters obliged and he was hanged. As Stephen Koch, author of “Double Lives” and Sean McMeekin, author of “The Red Millionaire”, Münzenberg’s biography, argued “The Brown Book” so highly praised at the time and so valued by various historians, was largely a pack of lies. In fact, the lies were not really substantiated and only self-imposed hypnosis could have made all those writers and reviewers swoon with praise at the time.”

This is a matter Hemingway surely must have known, and if he did not one can be sure that the FBI did. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

List of works by Ernest Hemingway

I was wondering if there is a reason no such list of his works is found on this site. I would love to see him have a complete bibliography as a stand-alone article like many lesser authors do Black Harry (T|C) 20:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Harry excellent idea, there a number of short stories that are not listed here. El Jigue208.65.188.149 02:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Self-admitted pro-Castro militant repeatedly removes reference to "The Shot"

A self-admitted pro-Castro militant (see his site) repeatedly removes references to Hemingway story "The Shot." This militant who illustrates his page with much left wing propaganda alledges insufficient evidence although a number of different sources are cited. So again I have reinserted it:

"However, the Hemingway account "The Shot" is used by Cabrera Infante and others as evidence of conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro dating back to 1948 and the killing of "Manolo" Castro a friend <refof Hemingway. " El Jigue208.65.188.149 01:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hemingway and "El Tigre" Masferrer

To support the data on Hemingway's links to the radical left I have inserted:

"Jorge García Montes and Antonio Alonso Ávila place Ernest Hemingway talking to “El Tigre” Rolando Masferrer, a veteran of the Spanish Civil War and expelled communist party leader) in the Havana in the Soviet Embassy on November 7 1945. (García Montes, Jorge and Antonio Alonso Ávila 1970 Historia del Partido Comunista en Cuba. Ediciones Universal, Miami. p. 362) At the time, according to these authors, Blas Roca and Fabio Grobart had desperately tried to stop Masferrer from leaving the communist party. At this event Masferrer refuses to shake the hand of Cuban communist leader Anibal Escalante. Masferrer had been expelled in August/September of 1945, "Masferrer and the novelist Carlos Montenegro founded the weekly magazine Tiempo en Cuba in January 1945. Eight months later they were expelled from the Communist Party for denouncing its leadership for its bourgeoisie and corrupt lifestyle." (de la Cova, Antonio Rafael. 2007 The Moncada Attack: Birth of the Cuban Revolution. University of South Carolina Press ISBN-10: 1570036721 ISBN-13: 978-1570036729 p. 287)." El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Apparently because of space limitations inserting this material results in delition of other previously inserted material. Because of this circumstance the article was restored to prior condition and left it as is. However, the incident reported above probably has some significance since it links Hemingway to the extreme left in 1945, and would have also attracted attention from the FBI. If somebody would like to insert a portion of the above it would be appreciated. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. El Jigue208.65.188.149 13:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The scenario descibed in the shot closely fits that described in Raimundo, Daniel Efrain 1994 Habla el Coronel Orlando Piedra (Coleccion Cuba y sus Jueces), Ediciones Universal ISBN-10 0897294793 ISBN-13: 978-0897294799 Pages 93-94 refer to the death of Manolo Castro, and offers the insight that it was Rolando Masferrer’s men, rather than the police who, were chasing after Fidel Castro with lethal intent. According to this account Castro is captured in the company of a woman and child as he tries to flee to Venezuela via the Cuban airport of Rancho Boyeros south of Havana by the Cuban Bureau of Investigation as witnessed by sergeant of that organization Joaquin Tasas. Castro is released the next day. This release is a little odd since Fidel Castro was believed to have organized the death of Manolo Castro (p. 99). Orlando Piedra seems a reliable, if abhorrent, source since he advocates total war killing all rural resistance (p. 44, see also pp. 207-208), finds commendable that Batista would find government jobs for children of subordinates (p. 55) and openly mentions his “elimination” of resistance fighters. Pages 98-101 show a “Police dossier” on Fidel Castro listing his height as 6 pies (six feet p. 98), and listing Castro as one of the “autores intelectuales” in the murder of Manolo Castro (p. 99. Unnumbered page following 208, states that Orlando Piedra Negueruela: “Participio en el golpe de estado de 10 de marzo, y luego era ascendido a coronel. Por decreto presidencial fue nombrado jefe del Buró de Investigaciones. Supervisor de la Policía Secreta, supervisor de la Policía Judicial, y asesor técnico del Buró de Actividades Comunistas (BRAC).” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Age

Under the date of death, the article has his age as "47-48" but if he is born July, 21. 1899 and died July 2, 1961 that would make him 61. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.181.168 (talk) 03:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Factual historical error

draft of "The Sun Also Rises" in six weeks, but the rewriting, after writing "Torrents of Spring," took several months; etc. Plhays 00:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT SBHarris 00:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

And he OBVIOUSLY PUSHED both triggers. He did not pull them. Idiots! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.30.127.218 (talk) 20:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The section on his suicide is misleading. It suggests that Hemingway pressed the gun to his forehead before shooting himself. This is impossible to know: the explosion from the gun blew away his entire cranial vault. "Whether he had placed the gun barrels in his mouth or pressed them to his forehead is impossible to say." -- Kenneth Lynn, in his book "Hemingway" ch. 25, p. 592 Check it out for yourself. Staticfrompluto (talk) 00:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The article states that after "Across the River and into the Trees" was published, Ernest moved from Cuba to Idaho, where he committed suicide six years later. But the novel mentioned was published in 1950. After that,Hemingway continued to live in Cuba until after the fall of Batista in January, 1959. Then he moved to Idaho permanently. micherniefanMicherniefan (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

The Spanish Civil War

The Spanish Civil War was horrendous on both sides. Thus, to present the Republican side as merely elected without reference to their own atrocities, distorts the circumstances in which Hemingway found himself and which he tolerated, as did Herbert Matthews,in his news reports. In Hemingway's favor one notes the narrations by the character "Pablo" of the killings of unarmed clergy found in "For Whom the Bell Tolls." Still it is pertinent to distinguish the role of Hemingway as a novelist for whom there is freedom to take a side or a position, from that of Hemingway as a journalist bearing a far greater ethical responsibility to adhere to objectivity. All this helps define Hemingway whose writings even for his times showed far less compassion for his non-US subjects,than his own nationals. One is reminded of his cursory treatment of the murder of smuggled Asians in one of the accounts found in "Islands in the Stream." Perhaps one might even ascribe (as surely somebody has) Hemingway's laconic writing style to a way to try to separate himself from the human subjects he describes, and eventually to himself. This laconic style could be compared to that of the trained thoughts of a Spartan youth going on a mission to murder Helots. As yet I have found no account of a meeting or interaction of Hemingway with Eric Blair George Orwell which might help illuminate this subject. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't you find it tiresome holding historic figures up to current standards? Just how well will you fair when your life is reviewed a hundred years from now? Rklawton 19:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

WW2 was horrendous on both sides, does that mean that there was a moral equivalency between the Axis and the Allies, that we should make excuses for Hitler and in this case Hitler's minion Franco on that basis or that people should have stood idly by and let them triumph? No. It is to the credit of Hemingway and all the other veterans of the "greatest generation" that they stepped up to the plate and did what had to be done in that situation. The world would be far worse off had they abandoned their duty. And of course, the other aspect of it is that Hemingway was a seasoned combat veteran, going back to the Great War, who had developed a hardened and desensitized attitude towards the cruelties of war, that some of his interlocutors may have never come close to seeing in real life even once, much less on a routine basis as soldiers often do.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Do moral judgements on Axis, Allies, "Republicans" belong into pedia-articles? Anyway I wonder why nothing is mentioned about the War Crimes that Hemingway himself did confess to. --41.19.225.197 (talk) 17:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

No I do not. Hemingway is still a man of my time. I remember the executions in la Caba~na in Cuba, and their horror. George Plimpton writes that Hemingway was impervious to their horror, but not so his dining companions. See:

• Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 pp. 143-149.

These scenes also horrified a large majority of the U.S. public. Thus one can say without exaggeration, that Hemingway's values in this regard were out of step with most in the US at that time. As to Civil War Spain George Orwell, John Dos Passos, and a good number of Hemingway's contemporaries were horrified by the cruelty of what occurred there. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Good points - and those contemporary reactions to Hemingway's work should be included. I hope you're sharpening your pencil! Rklawton 20:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but is that not true of most great conflagrations (and of war generally)? World War II? the American Civil War? there were atrocities on both sides, but ultimately it could and was reasonably concluded that cause of one side (The Union, the Allies) merited support and victory, represented progress and that it was critical for human history that that outcome be effectuated. The genteel equivocation of the gentlemen you mention, in contrast to Hemingway's candidly partisan attitude, in the context of what has aptly been described as the "dress rehearsal of World War II" could reflect a political attitude of conciliating fascism that many of these people had based on their privileged class position (see the "Understanding Rich") and quite frankly it was the abstention of the Allies and much of the liberal intelligentsia on this basis that created the situation where Soviet backed communists were able to gain the undue influence they had to the detriment of the Spanish Republic, which was qualitively different than the Axis sponsored military dictatorship that replaced it.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Rklawton: thank you will do at the first opportunity. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Tom: I do not recall reading of killings of clergy in the U.S. Civil War, and in WWI and WWII except by the Soviets and the Nazi. Hmmmm140.211.14.1 20:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

offensive?

Under the section about early criticism, they describe his second wife as "[allegedly having] lesbian affairs after their divorce". While I understand that 'affair' could have different meanings, the connotation is that she comitted adultry. If they were divorced this would not be the case unless she was remarried and that should be noted. Regardless- there is a difference between talking about the discriminate views of the past and talking in a discriminate tone ABOUT the past. I think the language should be clarified in order to be more objective towards this person... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.113.90.150 (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"Trivia"

While there are pertinent items listed, I find the popular culture and Anecdote sections to be primarily lists of trivia. I can see the popular culture shortened and converted to prose. The anecdote section should be pruned then the remains spread through the article at the appropriate spots. Someone more familiar with the topic would do a better job than I, but I am willing to dive in should no one step up. . . (John User:Jwy talk) 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Please Be bold and edit away. Most of what is listed here is not really relevant to the article. I'm no expert on the subject either, but I would be more than happy to help. I'm adding a trivia tag and will be back later to remove some of the more obviously misplaced bits of trivia. Sbacle 16:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have started to clean up this trivia section by removing a few of the bullet points that are clearly not significant to Hemingway. The information may be better placed in other articles, but does not belong here. I have detailed my reasons below. Please discuss if you have any objections.

• Seven/Rush album: Hemingway is quoted much to often for us to detail every single occurrence on this page.

• World of Warcraft/Family Guy episode/Fight Club/The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou/10 Things I Hate About You/Dreamcatcher/"We Didn't Start the Fire"/"Here's to Life"/"Just the Girl"/"Stranger Than Fiction": a passing reference, not of significant importance to the (MMORPG/episode/films/songs) or Hemingway.

• Celebrity Deathmatch: The show frequently depicts famous figures. The Hemingway depiction is not significant in any way, nor is it particularly accurate.

• Histeria!: Removed for reasons similar to Celebrity Deathmatch. He was only one of many famous authors depicted in this episode.

• Pete Wentz's dog: Perhaps this is significant enough to Pete Wentz to be included in the article about him, though I highly doubt it. It certainly doesn't belong here.

This is just a preliminary cleaning to get the ball rolling. Not all of the remaining material belongs in the article, but some of it does and should be integrated into the appropriate sections. Anything that doesn't belong should either be incorporated into an article to which it is relevant, or removed as not notable. Sbacle 15:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I like your reasoning for each of these. Keep up the good work! Rklawton 15:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jimmy Buffett

Songwriter/singer Jimmy Buffett references Hemingway in many songs. In one song, he says 'Follow the Equator, like the old articulator.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.188.202.63 (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

This Jimmy Buffett line refers to Mark Twain, not Hemingway. Michael.Urban (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Corrected intro

The introduction section refered to the Hemingway home in Ketchum as his "hunting lodge." It was in fact his home. His wife Mary continued to live there until her death in 1986. I corrected the mistake. Jonathan S Knowles 01:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of Dates

Hi, I just realized that the article mentions Hemingway moving to Key West, Florida twice, but in two different years. The first occurance is in the "First Novels And Other Early Works section and it states that "In 1928, Hemingway and Pfeiffer moved to Key West, Florida". However, in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" it states that "Hemingway moved in 1931 to Key West, Florida". Please fix this. Tamara Van Diest 19:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Rizla edits (terminology pertaining to Iceberg Theory)

User:Rizla insists on the following wording: Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement. I object to that for the following reasons: (a) Iceberg theory is by my understanding the legacy of Hemingway (so it is totally crazy in my eyes to have a whole article which doesn't mention the term once); (b) furthermore, I would argue that distinctive to, is a bias that should be entirely removed. My suggestion which doesn't remedy the bias is the following, Hemingway's distinctive writing style, detailed in his Iceberg Theory, is characterized by economy and understatement. This has the benefit of at least naming the theory on the page of the creator. For this article to even considered mediocre it must state the Iceberg Theory since his stories seem to often be analyzed to examine his implementation of this. Caveat: I'm not a English major, I just know my professor spoke of it a lot, and I was disturbed to see both the theory and the Hemingway without obvious wiki-links. I also must say to use wikilinks to conceal information seems to be an abuse of the functionality. The justification was style preference. To avoid accusations of an edit war I will revert after 5 days if there is no follow up. EvanCarroll 09:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you here. And to be honest, after reading Iceberg Theory, it's so small that you could merge the whole thing into this article. CarbonX 09:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

First off, Hemingway never called his writing style "iceberg theory," that is something that has been used as a catch all for the passage he wrote in Death in the Afternoon, which is in the wiki article. Hemingway himself never said "I write using Iceberg Theory." It could just as easily be called a Theory of Omission, or the Iceberg Method (and it has been referenced as this by other scholars). Second, people will see where the wiki link goes to if they mouse over it or click on the link. Third, this takes place in the introduction, which should be as concise and compact as possible. One of the challenges the editors have had with this article is the endless clauses and stuttering sentences that made it convoluted. This in my view is a failing of wiki as a whole, as editors would rather just interrupt a sentence with a clause or tack something on the end than rewrite the entire sentence so it is easier to read.

My problem with this is that "Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement" is entirely sufficient to describe his style in the introduction. If people want to know more they can click the wiki link. It is concise and to the point. If you want to change it, go ahead. I've spent a ton of time on this article trying to get it to at least read like it isn't written by a highschooler already. Adding another cumbersome subclause to a sentence about a writing style of economy and understatement is hilariously terrible. Rizla 18:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A Trivial Request for Enlightenment

The last paragraph in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" includes "kidney trouble from fishing" among a list of Hemingway's ailments during this period. Enquiring minds would like a little elaboration on the possible risks sportsfishing poses to the human kidney. Surely I'm not the only reader who has paused in puzzlement at that phrase.

Douglas Barber (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Diabetes

Diabetes was in the Hemingway family was known as the "Hemingway curse". As well as his father, Ernest and his brother both developed Diabetes. Refer to:

1. USA Today, 22 Sept 2007.
2. Diabetes Digest "Famous People & Diabetes"
3. Wagner-Martin, Linda (2000), A Historical Guide to Ernest Hemingway, ISBN 0195121511 where page 43 describes his condition in August 1947 as including high blood pressure, diabetes, depression and possible haemochromatosis.

I have already added Category:People with diabetes to the page. -- Ashley VH (talk) 23:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Bathurst Street Hunt Club

Can someone write Bathurst Street Hunt Club into this article so that Bathurst Street Hunt Club can stop being a stub? Kingturtle (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean stop being an orphan? --JayHenry (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Section order

Shouldn't the "Family" section come exactly after "Biography" and "Works" and "Adaptations" somewhere higher? SCriBu (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "eh" :
  • {{cite web|url=http://www.ernest.hemingway.com/cuba.htm|title=Homing To The Stream: Ernest Hemingway In Cuba}}
  • [http://www.ernest.hemingway.com/cuba.htm Ernest Hemingway His Life and Works<!-- Bot generated title -->]

DumZiBoT (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Images

Please don't add pictures of dummies to an article about one of the greatest writers of the 20th century...add another photo if necessary - but keep it real. Thanks..Modernist (talk) 21:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Ernest Hemingway/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Notified: WP:WPBIO, WP:ILLINOIS, WP:CHICAGO, JayHenry, Alcmaeonid, Rizla.

Belatedly notified: Other editors with at least 25 edits (Rklawton, Geeman, Stephen Burnett, DanielNuyu, Fabricationary, and Kbh3rd)

This article does not seem to have ever been properly assessed at WP:GAC according to its talk history. It is currently undercited and has several {{fact}} tags. I would rate it C-Class in its current state.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I've just reverted obvious vandalism on this article. I agree it's a complete mess. I'd like to someday overhaul it, but it's a massive project. I am not opposed to its removal as GA. --JayHenry (talk) 12:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for spending some time with the article. Obviously, your familiarity with the article enables you to quickly determine what was vandalism and what was deficient editorial work. Correcting either is helpful.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that this article is a "complete mess." That's overstating things quite a bit. The article has chronic instability issues stemming from near constant editing. It is a big target especially for new editors. To bring it up to speed would require some agressive editing and then the establishment of near constant vigilance by a group of concerned editors.~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 20:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. By "complete mess" I mean that I think it would take more time than GA reviews typically last to get it fixed. The referencing for much of this article is very problematic. Some of that stuff about Castro is cited to completely random blogs. Details of his mental health are cited to the trivia section of an IMDB entry. I think it would take weeks of work, with several academic Hemingway sources, to get this article back up to snuff. The things that we didn't add ourselves we'll want to go back and check that the reference actually supports the material. I've removed a lot of crazy stuff from this article over the years, and I'm sure that much more slipped through. It is a project I'd be interested in though. I have a Cambridge Companion to Hemingway and a biography of him as well. --JayHenry (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Good. What would you say to a plan of setting up an informal ad-hoc editing group to really go after this article and bring it up to code? Say with a one month completion target date? We could begin by creating a bibliography of sanctioned academic works. I can order up some books via ILL. Later on we could talk about oversight.~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you two making progress on this? It looks to me like a lot of rvvs in the history, but not much progress toward retaining WP:GA.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

True, this is a high profile article - as are several other articles common to school curricula. I don't have GA-specific experience for high profile articles. What approach has succeeded in the past? My gut reaction is to generate a good bibliography (as per Alcmaeonid's suggestion) and to strip out absolutely everything that doesn't conform. We can build up from there. However, I'm open to any collegial process with a modicum of consensus. Rklawton (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd really love to be involved in this ad hoc group, but won't be able to participate until September. (I didn't see Alcmaeonid's earlier comment about it.) One month wouldn't be a timeline in which I could participate, but if the project waits until September I'd be more than happy to make this my main project on Wiki because I agree it's such an important article. --JayHenry (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. Big projects 'tween now and then. Rklawton (talk) 02:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Then I'll check back next month. Meanwhile I'll begin to draft a biblio. Is this a page where work can begin or should we create a sandbox somewhere? Under the article talk-page like Talk:Ernest Hemingway/draft or something similar? Not sure of the wiki-protocol on this. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is being delisted at WP:GA. In the five weeks since this was listed as a WP:GAR nominee almost none of the major problems have been addressed. In addition, it has become the subject of edit warring and has {{sprotected}}{{pp-move|small=yes}} at the top of the source code for the page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Oops. That is IP vandalism and not content-dispute related edit warring. Nonetheless the major problems are unresolved.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Atheist/Catholic

I alway find myself in this article and one of the categories at the bottom disappeared (Catholics) and a new one appear (Atheist). I don't make any assertions, but the article doesn't mention "atheism" as it does "Catholic." Maybe someone can source the atheism comment. 66.82.9.59 (talk) 00:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Delisted as GA?

If this is true, why does it still say on the front page of the article that it is a Good Article? —Mattisse (Talk) 23:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It was delisted as a result of this discussion: Talk:Ernest_Hemingway#Ernest_Hemingway_GA_Reassessment. This only happened a few days ago. What do you mean by "the front page"? At WP:GA it is listed as a recently delisted article. Perhaps someone just forgot to update somewhere that needs to be updated? --JayHenry (talk) 23:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the actual article, Ernest Hemingway, it says right under the title: "A good article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A former featured article." I know from passing articles for GA, that as soon as I pass an article, the article (on the article page) immediately says "A good article from Wikipedia". Therefore, there is something in the code for this article, Ernest Hemingway, that records it as currently a GA. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: In the case of passing a GA, the change comes from recording the change on the talk page {{GA|~~~~~|topic=x|page=n}}. However, I cannot find that code on the talk page of this article. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I think you might have something in your monobook that displays that because I can't see it. I noticed that Hemingway was still listed as a Good Article in the Version 0.5 template. I switched it to B-class. Did that fix it for your setup? That's the only guess I've got! --JayHenry (talk) 01:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Whatever you just did fixed it. It now shows up as a B-class article. I do have something in my monobook (or somewhere - perhaps under Gadgets under Preferences) that does automatically show the article class. Anyway, you fixed it, so thanks! —Mattisse (Talk) 01:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Meeting with Joyce

I don't remember the passage from A Moveable Feast where EH meets and talks with James Joyce. I don't think they ever met, but from memory, I think it was EH that admired the older writer from afar, as described in the scene when EH sees Mr. Joyce eating in a fancy restaurant with his family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.125.239.235 (talk) 23:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

You may recall the lines in A Movable Feast where EH is sat at a Cafe Table in Paris. A curious man walks past and EH is told it was Alistair Crowley. EH may have met Mr Joyce in a similar way. That is 'met' in the broad sense of the term.Johnwrd (talk) 23:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Restoration

During the recent Good Article Review, a number of editors expressed interest in a collaborative effort to rebuild this article to GA and eventually FA standard. Some thoughts:

• I think it might actually be easiest to approach this as almost a complete overhaul. We can build off the sources listed when they seem like quality material, but a lot of the sources are a bit sketchy.
• Some good Featured Articles on literary giants to think of as templates: Chinua Achebe, Honoré de Balzac, William Shakespeare, Mary Shelley, Emily Dickinson.
• This will be an especially challenging project because Hemingway had an interesting life, was a prolific author, and is an extremely important figure (which means the standards from the FAC community shoot through the roof). And the article is already extremely long.
• One shortening idea would be to spin Ernest_Hemingway#Works into its own sub-article titled "Bibliography of Ernest Hemingway", and we should see if we can make that an FL!
• I think we can just use the talk page to share thoughts as we work.
• I've started a subsection below that lists the sources I have on my shelf. It's just three books, but the Cambridge Companion has lots of great essays. I have Hem's well-known novels, and I also have some biographies of F. Scott Fitzgerald that might be helpful. If anybody else wants to add sources that they have, it'd be a good start for seeing how many more books we might have to track down.

Any other thoughts welcome. --JayHenry (talk) 04:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Baker, Carlos (1969). Ernest Hemingway; a Life Story. New York: Scribner. ISBN 0684147408.
• Brasch, James D. (July, 1986). "Hemingway's Doctor: José Luis Herrera Sotolongo Remembers Ernest Hemingway". Journal of Modern Literature. 13 (2). Indiana University Press: 185–210. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Donaldson, Scott (1996), "Introduction: Hemingway and fame", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Dewberry, Elizabeth (1996), "Hemingway's journalism and the realist dilemma", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Smith, Paul (1996), "1924: Hemingway's luggage and the miraculous year", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Strychacz, Thomas (1996), "In Our Time, out of season", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Nagel, James (1996), "Brett and the other women in The Sun Also Rises", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Reynolds, Michael (1996), "A Farewell to Arms: Doctors in the house of love", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Fleming, Robert E. (1996), "Hemingway's late fiction: Breaking new ground", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Kinnamon, Keneth (1996), "Hemingway and politics", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Sanderson, Rena (1996), "Hemingway and gender history", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Kennedy, J. Gerald (1996), "Hemingway, Hadley, and Paris: The persistence of desire", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Josephs, Allen (1996), "Hemingway's Spanish sensibility", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Sylvester, Bickford (1996), "The Cuban context of The Old Man and the Sea", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Beegel, Susan F. (1996), "Conclusion: The critical reputation of Ernest Hemingway", in Donaldson, Scott (ed.), The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X
• Reynolds, Michael (1986), The Young Hemingway, New York: Basil Blackwell, ISBN 0631147861
• Hemingway, Ernest (1985), White, William (ed.), Dateline: Toronto, New York, ISBN 0684185156{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
• Hotchner, A. E. (2005). Papa Hemingway: A Personal Memoir. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0306814277.

"World War II and after"

As for this passage of the article, one should re-read Hemingway's novel Across the River and into the Trees, where some of the experiences of the author during the liberation of Paris and during the cruel battle of the Hurtgen forest may have entered the memories of the hero of the novel, a colonel Cantwell. - Regards! User 87.160.79.8 (talk) 14:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Similar content

[7] Has similar content to this page (the section titles are very similar). Which leads me to wonder if they copied Wikipedia...? Killiondude (talk) 05:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Example: "From this 1851 solid limestone house — a wedding present from Pauline's uncle — Hemingway fished in the waters around the Dry Tortugas with his longtime friend Walso Pierce, went to the famous bar Sloppy Joe's, and occasionally traveled to Spain, gathering material for Death in the Afternoon and Winner Take Nothing."

That is nearly the same exact thing on both this article and the EL. Killiondude (talk) 05:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway project?

I am interested in starting am Ernest Hemingway project to improve content related to his life and works, and have proposed the project at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Wikiproject_Ernest_Hemingway_project. Please share your thoughts there! kilbad (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There is something odd about the last paragraph in the "Later Years" section. It says that treatment for high blood pressure and liver problems may have precipitated his suicide, since he suffered memory loss from the shock treatments. Shock treatments for high blood pressure and liver problems? This sentence needs to be re-written.

Ernest Hemingway was an atheist

Just google for "Ernest Hemingway atheist". http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ernest+hemingway+atheist&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= "All thinking men are atheists." This is probably one of the most beautiful quotes in history.Azdfg (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC) And why is Hemingway's well-known atheism not mentioned in the article,especially considering that it influenced his work? http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm#hemingway

"On page 144 of Paul Johnson's book Intellectuals, it states that despite being raised in a strict Congregationalist household, Ernest "did not only not believe in God but regarded organized religion as a menace to human happiness", "seems to have been devoid of the religious spirit", and "ceased to practise religion at the earliest possible moment." Other's have pointed out that Hemingway used the non-existence of God as a theme in his books. (Azdfg (talk) 14:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Well he grew up in a religious home. His mother was very strictly religious. I am pretty sure he turned back to Catholicism later in his life, towards his death, and that he had a Roman Catholic funeral (they said his suicide was a result of insanity, and therefore he could have a catholic funeral). But of course, I need to find references to back this up. I just did all the reading on his biography a few weeks ago... Killiondude (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Hemingway is also known to have said in Farewell to Arms that all thinking men are atheists Surely he was one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.175.179 (talk) 11:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Given that A Farewell to Arms is a work of fiction and that Hemingway did not in fact utter the phrase "All thinking men are atheists" since it came through the voice of a character, it would be absurd to assume based on that alone that Hemingway was an atheist. Additionally, the fact that he converted to Catholicism before A Farewell to Arms was published means that he cannot have been "without religious persuasion" and - depending on how you want to define "atheism" - should probably not be considered an atheist. Gcbroaddus (talk) 22:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing all of the "He was without religious persuasion (an atheist)." It's unsourced and somewhat illogical nonsense. "Atheist" means without or no god. It says nothing about religion. Unless Hemingway said outright that he was an atheist then we can no more mention that than we can mention his non-collection of Postage Stamps. Ttiotsw (talk) 04:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll probably be yelled at, but NNDB says he was a Roman Catholic. NNDB is quite reliable and irreligious (they used to own rotten.com, which slams religion at every turn). Link for your interest http://www.nndb.com/people/790/000022724/ 125.238.149.120 (talk) 10:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Someone stating "all thinking men are athiests" does not make the person who stated it an athiest him/herself ... most religions (all?) are composed of an element of faith which in some cases/senses goes beyond our thinking - he could be saying many things by that statement ... compounded with the idea that the statement is with-in fiction makes the basis for such a conclusion unfounded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.56.86.35 (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Hemingway was his namesake?

Shouldn't this sentence read "Hall was his namesake"? I'd fix it, but it's all locked up! Jacobus (talk) 23:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Unintelligible, incoherent, factually inaccurate bit here on the Spanish Civil War

The character who details the massacre of reactionaries in 'For Whom the Bell Tolls' is Pilar, not Pablo.

The source of the conflict between Hemingway and Dos Passos wasn't "atrocities" committed against deserving right-wing targets, but that Hemingway more or less went along with the line of the Stalinists in the Spanish Civil War, which was to defend capitalism and the political power of the bourgeosie in the Republican-held zone of Spain. Dos Passos in contrast was a supporter of the authentic enemies of capitalism on the republican side, the anarcho-syndicalist mass workers organization, the CNT.

Regarding the question of revolutionary violence, minus the moral slobbering, Orwell gets mentioned here. I refer readers to the opening pages of Orwell's 'Homage to Catalonia,' his memoir of fighting in the Spanish Civil War, and Orwell's enthusiastic response to the apparent defeat or killing of the bourgeoisie of Barcelona on his first arrival in the city. In the immortal words of Robespierre, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miasnikov (talk • contribs) 04:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hemingway's 1921 apartment at 1239 North Dearborn, Chicago

I have been trying to fix the problems with this image. Consequently I reverted back to where it was last visible. I don't understand why this image was not showing up before, puzzling...Modernist (talk) 13:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Very puzzling. I can't find the diff where it disappeared, but it was in last night as I was working on the article. I was looking at the image wondering whether I wanted to tackle the next section or wait to fill in the WWI section w/ more material/sources. Anyway, thanks for the fixes. And also thanks for reverting the vandalism on this article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

The article is being hit hard today by vandals. Is there an admin, by chance, reading this who can protect the article. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I made a request here: [8]...Modernist (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. I keep this on my watchlist. :-)

Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Abondon?

I edit Wikipedia for typos when I get bored, but this one was locked down, so you get a new talk page heading instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.241.254.133 (talk) 20:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Fixed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

War Criminal?

There is an article alleging that Ernest Hemingway was a war criminal. Please note the relevant passages:

Hemingway often boasted about his courage in regard to wounded or disarmed German soldiers. On August 27, 1949 he wrote in retrospect “One day I killed an impudent SS-Kraut. When I told him that I was going to kill him if he even thought of fleeing, the fellow answered “No you’re won’t, because you are afraid to do it and you belong to a breed of degenerates. Besides, its against the Geneva Convention.”
“What a mistake you made brother” I told him and fired three shots into his stomach. When he fell to his knees I shot him in the head so that his brain came out through his mouth. In the same letter he wrote about another “glorious deed” in regard to a captured SS-man that he had interrogated who, according to Hemingway spoke a wonderful English. “He answered my questions succinctly and intelligently. He called me Herr Captain. I wore no rank insignia. When he thought it was not high enough he raised it to Herr Colonel I probably would have made it to General, but we had no time. Afterwards we chased them away (killed them) because we knew what their insignia stood for.
Hemingway often bragged about the number of (disarmed) German soldiers he allegedly killed. In a letter dated July 9, 1960 he wrote “I killed about 122 Germans, not counting the uncertain ones. The last one left me with a bad feeling. He was a young non-combatant soldier wearing a German uniform. He was fleeing on a bicycle in the direction of Aachen. I said to my companion “Let me take this one.” The boy was about as old as my son Patrick. I shot him through the spine and the bullet came out through his liver.

After that incident Hemingway was no longer able to continue with his “heroic deeds” because he was captured by the Germans and spent the rest of the war as a prisoner-of-war at Hammelsburg and Nuremberg. It is not known whether the Germans knew about his crimes. In any case he was treated correctly and was released in May 1945 when the war ended.
http://www.nordisk.nu/showthread.php?p=233090

Shouldn't this information be included? That is, if the claims can be verified.--41.19.225.197 (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Well apparently it's from one of his letters. I do have a book (maybe even two) of his letters so will have a look to see what I can find, but at this point it does need to be a better source than a blog. Thanks, though, interesting information, although maybe difficult to add in an encyclopedic biography. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Details of Suicide

Is it only an 'urban legend' that he committed suicide by pulling the trigger of a gun with his foot? Or is it a deliberate emission?

This description was edited out yesterday. I don't necessarily believe that such detail is warranted except the issue of how he committed suicide continues to be raised, and as such a WP:RS should be used to describe the event (which is done in the deleted edited). Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

You should include how he committed suicide, though the vigorous language might be toned down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.28.30.197 (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Mass deletion

Oct 3 09- Truthkeeper88 just deleted many paras of interesting referenced text. Seems too extreme to me --Spanglej (talk) 22:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to revert if the sources are reliable. I've deleted sections that were sourced using blogs, etc. Also, deleted a section about Cuba house management in 2001 which may be interesting and perhaps useful elsewhere, but would like to keep the biography section focused on Hemingway's biography. Also, deleted a large section about Castro that perhaps can be moved elsewhere, but seemed to veer from the actual biography of Hemingway. I'm taking a quick break and will return to add sources and retrieve what I can using reliable sources. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:38, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Not mentioned?

Hi! I noticed on the Wikipedia Page "Morley Callaghan" that the said author had an "infamous boxing match" with Hemingway, yet it is not mentioned here. I don't know if this is true (and I don't do Wikipedia full-time), so can someone check if that fact has validity and post it in this article? Just checking! 99.163.234.38 (talk) 06:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe it is true. Will have a look at the sources when I get time and add a ref to the Callaghan article if necessary. In my view the bio here is getting a little bloated, so I wouldn't mind input from others about how much detail to add. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Islands in the Stream Reference is incorrect

The link for Islands in the Stream in the posthumous works section links to some sort of music album instead of Islands in the Stream (novel), which is the novel by Hemingway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.247.244 (talk) 15:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

For Whom the Bell Tolls

In the Cuba and World War II section, the fourth sentence, still refers to "For Whom the Bells Toll," instead of "For Whom the Bell Tolls." Please correct. Obviously, I need to make a few more corrections somewhere, so I could have done this myself. Thanks. KG —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kgarnjost (talk • contribs) 18:33, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Good catch. Thank you! Fixed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Picasso/lost generation

This article states that Picasso was part of the lost generation along with Hemingway. This is at best problematic and should be removed. Despite the fact that he was friends with or otherwise connected to several individuals in the lost generation, Picasso was nearly two decades older than the core "members" of the lost generation, not to mention several other problems with including him in the group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.255.233 (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway

Is there any knowledge of Ernest Hemingway having done a painting, maybe of a bullfight ? —marcusweinhard (via posting script) 16:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to look that up in the biographies. Am a little busy at the moment, so will have to get back to this. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Try asking at the Reference desk; the editors there will usually know or know how to find out. NW (Talk) 22:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Hemet Nesingwary

Just a quick note to add: In World of Warcraft there is a character named Hemet Nesingwary, who spends his time hunting. I'd say this is almost certainly a nod of the hat to Ernest, but being I'm not particularly active on Wikipedia I can't add it in to the article, what with it being semi protected. So instead, if someone could add it in when they have a chance, cheers. Also note: Hemet wrote a book entitled "The Green Hills of Stranglethorn", perhaps a reference to Hemingwary's "The Green Hills of Africa". ReidE96 (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Request input on how to proceed with reorganization

To anyone reading this page, input would be appreciated on how to proceed with this article. I've added sources to the biography and works section (which were almost entirely unsourced). Still have to finish the "Journalism and correspondence" section. In my view the following sections should either moved elsewhere (as separate pages) or deleted: "Family"; "Honors"; and "Tributes" (which I'd like to see as a subpage). Thanks for any comments. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Typos

The summary contains typos:

Since his death three novels. four collections of short stories, and three non-fiction autobiographical works have been published.

Hemingway received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1954 his novella The Old Man and the Sea.

In 1924 Hemingway wrote the his first novel, The Sun Also Rises.

I can't edit semi-protected articles.

Raslafor (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Another letter

I've added the sentence about Hemingways letter to Kahle about his "Spanish Civil War adventures" and the reference again. It shows Hemingway's typical language and according to a TIME Magazine obit Kahle was the model for the General in Ernest Hemingway's novel "For Whom The Bell Tolls". [9] [10] Maybe it's not so uninteresting(?)--Henrig (talk) 22:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Using Hemingway's letters to describe events in his life is problematic for a couple of reasons: 1.) there are so many letters that each event could be supported with letters and the article would bloat beyond the reasonable length; 2.) critics generally consider that Hemingway's version of events is not always the correct version. That said, the information you've added above would be fine to add to background section of the For Whom the Bell Tolls. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:30, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Calling all Hemingway fans for comment: an RfC on one of Hemingways's three or four best short stories

At issue is the rather famous story The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber, which is among the author's best. It is a coming-of-age story, like the Nick Adams stories, and the white hunter Wilson is rather embarrassed by Macomber's later coming-of-age, something he says plainly, as well as the fact that coming of age is not a matter of the 21st birthday. However, the process makes Macomber very happy, but his happiness lasts only a few minutes, for his wife soon shoots him in the back of the head. Hence, the title: the shortness of the HAPPY part of Macomber's life-- the part after he becomes a man. One editor of the Wiki has taken it as his task to revert all of my edits to this article, which are mostly additions of quotes from the story to illustrate the story's theme, and which flesh out the narative (the present synopsis leaves the plot with the bullalo "refusing to die" and doesn't tell us what happens to it). All these changes have been reverted back to his own version by this single editor, who appears to have a shiney new rollback tool, but does not know what is supposed to be done with a rollback tool (answer: revert vandalism with it, not good faith edits). This editor is willing to revert without input from others. However I think it better to solicit input, and I'm doing that here, in the place where the most Hemingway afficionados will be likely to read it. Please go to the story's TALK page [11] and add your input to the debate on how much of this story's description to include, as well as what it means. Thanks! SBHarris 04:30, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the summary needs improvement, but, like your comments here, your edits were all speculation and original research and thus have no place on wikipedia, making use of rollback appropriate. Oh, and it's spelled "Hemingway." EeepEeep (talk) 08:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Since that's a missing letter in one out of three times I typed Hemingway above, it appears you've managed to locate a typo! You have removed some of my direct quotations from the story-- how is it that they are "speculation"? If you'd left them but removed the unreferenced material only, you'd have a better case. However, your actions suggest rather that these segments don't fit your personal opinion of what dialog and events from the story are crucial to presenting the plot, but you do not understand this. In any case, who exactly are you to tell me what does and what doesn't "have a place" on Wikipedia? I've been here a year longer than you and done roughly 13 times the work here. Long enough to see that you're misusing the one tool you have. And by the way, you just violatd 3RR, a blockable offense. I think you should probably re-evaluate your understanding of rollback, the rules of Wikipedia, the use of , and generally just quit your present behavior, while you're ahead. SBHarris 02:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Since you're such an expert on Wikipedia policy I shouldn't need to tell you to take the article discussion to the talk page for the article actually being discussed. Since your personal attacks have no basis in reality I don't see any reason to reply. EeepEeep (talk) 09:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and you might want to actually read and understand WP:3RR before you go around accusing other editors of violating it. And please learn to use preview. EeepEeep (talk) 09:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, looking at the timeline, I admit you spaced things out so you reverted me three times in under 48 hours, not 24 hours. That leaves you in compliance with the letter of the law, but since these were large reversions which you can't get any consensus on (indeed, haven't been able to find anybody who agrees with you about) it's still amounts to tendentious editing on your part, and I doubt you'll find anyone who disagrees. I don't know Truthkeeper from (Nick) Adams, except that he knows something about the subject at hand, which is Hemingway and his work. That's all that is required, here. The critics have said far more on the subject of the Macomber story than the Wiki on it says, even now. Expansion is justified, not deletion. My reaction would have been far different if you'd been helping in that work of expansion, instead of merely being reactionary. SBHarris 23:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice to see you've calmed down, but it seems like you still don't understand how your edits were not compatible with wikipedia guidelines. You should try reading Wikipedia:How to write a plot summary. What "the critics have said" has a place in the article, but it's not in the plot summary. I'm all for collaborating to improve an article, but it's rather hard to do when other editors are throwing around nonsensical accusations and refusing discuss the content in a productive manner. I think the page is much better now with the "Major Themes" section added by Truthkeeper88 and a trimmed down plot summary. EeepEeep (talk) 03:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that for a story this complex, a plot summary this short doesn’t support many of the major themes mentioned, though the story itself does. For example, after the buffalo kills, the story says about Macomber that “For the first time in his life he really felt wholly without fear. Instead of fear he had a feeling of definite elation.” Shortly thereafter: “Macomber felt a wild unreasonable happiness that he had never known before.” Between the phrase “first time in his life” and “happiness he had never known before” the meaning of the story title is apparent, such that it can later be explained in the theme section. But if you leave this out of the plot summary, it is not apparent, and the critical analysis comes out of nowhere.

Again, Margot does more than mock her husband for cowardice—she tells him flatly that he is a coward. But she does it as he all-but catches her cheating on him. Is the timing important? Does it support the notion that she attempts to control her husband through this? It needs to be mentioned in the plot before being analyzed. Wilson tells us: “Fear gone like an operation. Something else grew in its place. Main thing a man had. Made him into a man. Women knew it too. No bloody fear.” It is Wilson’s opinion that the change into manhood for Macomber will mean no more cuckoldry. Later, the story confirms Margot’s sense when it tells us that she sees Wilson no differently, but does see her husband differently. And it gives Margot’s reaction to her husband’s loss of fear: ‘"You've gotten awfully brave, awfully suddenly," his wife said contemptuously, but her contempt was not secure. She was very afraid of something.’ She is very afraid. Margot’s new fear and Wilson’s “He would have left you, too,” gives Margot a motive. The plot summary would not mention the motive, but it needs to give enough information that the reader will understand the motive, when discussed later.

I read the plot summary essay. I also note that this 13,500 word analysis of this story takes 657 words to summarize the plot, which is almost 4 times the 171 words in the WP article now. Perhaps the writers of the critical analysis should have read WP’s Plot Summary essay? But then, there’s the bothersome matter of the missing material to support any analysis. Actually, the WP essay is interesting, but has nothing to teach me about plot summary. Nor do you. SBHarris 08:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

A proper analysis of the story isn't possible without a good plot summary. "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" is perhaps one of the best short stories written in the 20th century—not my opinion, the opinion of the critics from whom I have stacks of articles littering my desk. Without a detailed plot summary, one cannot discuss Hemingway's theory of omission, (aka the iceberg theory), the use of symbolism, his belief in living an "authentic" life, etc., which are the hallmark characterisitics of Hemingway's writing that are handled perfectly in this single story. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:44, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Truthkeeper88 on this; the article needs a good, concise plot summary that sets the stage for the later analysis, but the two sections should be clearly delineated. You might also read Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Style guidelines; this seems to be the format Truthkeeper88 followed when reorganizing the article. EeepEeep (talk) 20:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Spy

Newly found KGB records show that Ernest Hemingway was a registered spy with the codename "Argo". http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/09/hemingway-failed-kgb-spy Perhaps this is worth mentioning in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.138.137 (talk) 12:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it is: I have now included the info. Thanks for the find! BlackMarlin (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

More typos

In the section Idaho_and_suicide:

"A few day later" should be "A few days later".

"guite deliberately" should be "quite deliberately" (I checked the original reference) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.210.129.167 (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing out the typos! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Minor Error

Uh, I'm not able to fix it, and think it is a minor error. (forgive my lack of knowledge on how this works.)

"...Ernest Miller Hall, an English immigrant and Civil War veteran who lived with the family. Hemingway was his namesake..."

I figure Hemingway was his namesake is supposed to refer to the grandfather, so shouldn't it be Miller Hall, or Hall? SamX13 (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Top image

Why use that bad quality image at the top when we have File:Ernest Hemingway 1950.jpg and File:Hemingway 1953 Kenia.jpg? Can I replace it and put that image further down the article? --Beao 17:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The one on the Pilar really doesn't do him justice. It's after the 1954 accident and he was sick. I do like the one from Kenya, but an earlier one would be better. The image in the infobox seems to have been scanned from a book, thus the low quality. I believe the JFK Library would a better quality version of the image. I'll have a look when I get time. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Add to comment: can't find the top image at JFK Library, but have added the image library as an el for anyone to look. Here's an image I like but found it on google, though I've seen it elsewhere. I suspect it's in the JFK Library but not currently published. We could check with them to see whether it's in the public domain and use it... Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

This is really nice too. I guess unknown copyright owner means copyrighted, even though it is in the JFK Library? --Beao 14:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I uploaded one with unknown copyright and had to replace it. Maybe the one that exists at the top could be cleaned up? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, maybe this can be cleaned up? It's the back of the dustjacket from "For Whom the Bells Toll", so allowed to be used. I'm not any good with images, but perhaps someone else is who could clean it up a bit. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it be copyrighted? --Beao 17:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography?

Less influential, and more prolific, authors' articles have lists of their work. Why doesn't this one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.140.16 (talk) 23:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway bibliography is a separate article, linked to in the See Also from this article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 142.179.223.60, 21 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Read the first sentence under the header "Paris". There is something missing there it does not make sense. Thanks.

142.179.223.60 (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

If you read the previous paragraph it makes more sense. Don't hesitate to post here if you still don't understand. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits re: bi-polar disease

We have to be very careful about this. In fact Hemingway was never diagnosed as bi-polar during his lifetime. His mental illness may have been caused by a number of mitigating factors such as a rare genetic disorder and an inordinate number of head injuries. Additionally he was an alcoholic for much of his life (no doubt in the sources on that) which causes mood swings, etc. I've examined these sources and found that they simply suggest the possiblity of the condition without confirming. It's very hard for an accurate diagnosis as Hemingway died 49 years ago. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not hard at all. There is a plethora of sources on this. You have to realize that all diagnosis are opinions. These are documented opinions, that's all. References are included and that's all that is needed to be valid and reliable on Wikipedia. See:[12].Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. His symptom may have been, and most likely were the result of the alcoholism. A diagnosis is definitely an opinion when the patient is dead. There is an opinion paper suggesting that Hemingway may have suffered from bi-polar - nowhere does the author declare definitively that he did. The second source is a student handbook, of much lower quality than the sources used here. Needs to be more than a documented opinion, and certainly should be worded better. The material had been reworded, the sources formatted, and left in the article, but commented out. In my view, it will take more than then the one opinion the add this information. Approximately 3000 to 4000 articles exist on Hemingway, and his biographers, who were very thorough, do not point to bi-polarism. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid we are at the end here. You didn't even look at the link above which provides hundreds of scientific sources for the bipolar claim. So this discussion was pointless as I knew it would be, I will revert without further comment.Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I see words such as "careful reading" and "suggest" - not a diagnosis. Thus, it's tricky to add. Sorry you want to revert without discussion. I'll download some of the better sources and read. If this information is to be left in, it should use the best possible source. A student handbook is not the best possible source. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The current version has it is widely believed that Hemingway suffered bipolar disorder. Does the Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway (the cite used) state that? Explicitly, does it say the belief is widely held? (That seems surprising, but I'm very, very far from being knowledgeable here.

Google turned up this, which seems intriguing as it suggest Hemingway has been "reliably diagnosed as having bipolar disorder". I'd like to see more - who diagnosed, and when?

The rest of the ghits were far less convincing: lots of "careful reading" and "speculation".

Oh, and both of you: WP:BRD ;-)

TFOWR 18:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway states: "He was diagnosed with what was then called manic-depressive illness but is now known as bipolar mood disorder." Contrary to above many biographies document Hemingways bipolar disorder (called Manic-Depressive then) [13]. Also: "Dr. Donald W. Goodwin asserts that there was reason to believe that Hemingway was diagnosed as a manic- depressive during his stay at the Mayo Clinic in 1961." [14].Tstrobaugh (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, do we know when he was diagnosed, per the Student Companion? If the Student Companion has more details on when he was diagnosed I'd be a lot happier with the current cite. I'm not seeing anything yet to support "widely believed", however.

I'm far less comfortable with Donaldson, "reason to believe" being less than satisfactory, but I've not got access to either Meyer or Donaldson. Could you cite what they say about the diagnosis?

TFOWR 18:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I very much respect Rose-Marie Burwell's work, in particular regarding the findings regarding his health. All she has is the suggestion that he was treated for manic- depression [15]. I'm sorry, but I can't access Donaldson (getting a blank page) but will keep trying. Reynolds, whose biography work is the most respected, simply suggests that Hemingway may have been treated for manic - depression - hence the ECT - at the Mayo. In my view it's appropriate (and should have been done earlier) to add that information to the article. But to assert unequivocally that he was diagnosed as bi-polar and that it's widely believed he was would be more difficult to verify with the best possible sources. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Reynolds biography - an extensive four volume work - cites the Mayo records. The depression was attributed to a medication called Serpasil (p. 350) sorry, I have the book, not a g link. Truly, I believe that if Reynolds thought the evidence was strong enough, he would have written definitively that EH was bi-polar. Instead he reports, as should we, what was done and why. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to what is being argued. Are we all in agreement that Hemingway had a "mental illness"?[16] Or is even that in question?Tstrobaugh (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Popping in to say it is not talk page consensus that determines if Hemingway had a mental illness. It will be sources. As Hemingway's major contributions to life on the planet had to do with literature (for some reason *cough*), decide what to put in the article on the talk page instead of rapid reverts.

"It is widely believed" is very poor phrasing for declaring anyone has or has had a mental illness. Retro diagnosis is also slippery. State if he was diagnosed. If not, which biographers claim he was mentally ill and be specific. Figure out the wording here on the talk page. Argue about it here, not in article space. --Moni3 (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If you would be so kind as to give me a moment or two write up the information that would helpful. We know from the sources that he suffered paranoia, delusions. The sources do not tell why. We do know (according to the sources) that he sustained multiple head injuries throughout his life, was an alcoholic, took a cocktail of medications (which I will add to the article but the 3RR report may prevent that). That's what the best sources tell us. I have both Meyers and Reynolds. Am taking Moni3's advice, but first am logging off so I can read the information and present it correctly. I have read both books more than once, but it's certainly possible that I've missed information. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

He has been reliably diagnosed [17]. Two kinds of people in the world Three wise monkeys and the Seek and ye shall find type. Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Internet communications are awful, Tstrobaugh. I can't tell if you're being helpful or not with the monkeys vs. seekers comment. Clearly there is a dispute about wording. The source you provided is not authoritative to state Hemingway's diagnosis. It does say he was diagnosed, but it does not provide any details. It assumes the reader is already familiar with Hemingway's mental illness. A book, journal article, or some other reliable source that discusses Hemingway's mental state in detail is necessary, particularly if editors are rapid reverting. It's best not to leave any questions. --Moni3 (talk) 20:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

What evidence is needed here? Actual hospital records? Is that standard to be applied to every incident of diagnoses on Wikipedia? Every physical and mental ailment mentioned? When I took psych in the 70's this was a known fact, under the heading "manic-depressive" was a picture of Hemingway, in fact in all of Wikipedia Hemingway is probably the most well know diagnosis.Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

No, hospital records are primary sources and secondary are preferred on Wikipedia. Surely there are sources that discuss Hemingway's mental issues. The journal link you provided cites Hochner AE: Papa Hemingway: The Ecstasy and the Sorrow. New York, Morrow, 1983. What does this book say? What do other books say about that source? --Moni3 (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

AE Hotchner was an editor for Cosmopolitan and a friend. Mary Hemingway sued him for writing his book Papa in the 1960s. It's best not to use Hotchner, and the article does not cite his work. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

My point about the seek and find is that if a person is truly hungry for knowledge and the truth they will seek it out themselves, but anyway I'll try again [18].Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, with that source, the phrasing becomes more tenuous. I hope you can see that necessity to tread lightly on how this will be worded. The page refutes the psychiatry journal article you linked to by saying Hemingway was undiagnosed. So Bruccoli asserts there was no diagnosis. How sure was he then of bipolar disorder? The Wiki article makes reference to haemochromatosis, but does not say how this condition affects one's mental state. That should be clarified if it has a bearing on perceptions of mental illness. Let's seek out what the best sources have to say. --Moni3 (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

This is what we know:

Reynolds, Michael. Hemingway the Final Years. 1999

(pages numbers from desk copy)

• p. 300 In 1957 Hemingway suffered from high blood pressure and alcohol withdrawal. He was prescribed new drug Serpasil to treat for withdrawal symptoms, though the long term effects were unknown.
• p. 300 Same year Hemingway was diagnosed with depression as a result of high blood pressure and alcoholism
• p. 321 For two decades he became depressed when finished with a writing project. In 1959 he finished the African book (True at First Light, A Moveable Feast and Garden of Eden - all published after his death) and became depressed after the work. At the time he was taking all of the following medications:
  • synthetic testosterone
  • Serpasil for anxiety
  • Doriden
  • Ritalin
  • Euncanil
  • Seconal
  • combined with huge amounts of alcohol.

Meyers, Jeffrey. Hemingway: A Biography. 1985

Discusses mental illness in pages 540-546 (in my book) which are cited in the article four times. In those pages, Meyers states:

• p. 544 No one knew what was wrong with him. Two sentences later: "Mary told people he had been manic-depressive"
• p. 545 Dr. Saviers admits to not knowing the diagnosis
• p. 546 next sentence "No one knew how to deal with the mental illness" - sons and brothers were not notified. Next sentence - a physician mentioned "depression" based on a verbal report from Hotchner without having met or examined Hemingway. Next sentence - Saviers knew Hemingway wouldn't agree to a mental hospital and Mary feared the publicity, so Saviers decided to bring him to the Mayo. Meyers points out the Hemingway did not attempt suicide until after the ECT treatments.

The rest describes the ECT treatments.

Hope this can help shape the conversation. What I personally believe is irrelevant. What the sources tell us, is. They do not mention bi-polar, but certainly the depressive episodes can (and should) be added. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your premise that post-mortem diagnoses are invalid [19].Tstrobaugh (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

To my knowledge, another FA, Samuel Johnson, mentions that he may have had Tourette Syndrome. He was posthumously diagnosed according to the Johnson article, even though the syndrome had not been named while he was alive. SandyGeorgia was the contributor to that article in TS issues specifically. I've asked her to weigh in on this discussion. --Moni3 (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

We can see the quality of the information degrade even here. Surely EH was not prescribed reserpine/Serpasil for anxiety and withdrawal, since it does nothing for either one. (It's for blood pressure, and CAUSES depression. Unfortunately, there were few good alternatives at the time). It would have been the Doriden that was prescribed for alcohol-withdrawal. And I have no idea what "Euncanil" is, and neither does the internet. Are you sure the spelling is correct? SBHarris 23:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's the link to Reynolds [20]. In my copy the list of medications, and reason for prescription, is listed on page 322. Can't access that page, so can't give you a link. Euncanil is spelled correctly but without explanation. I've added to the article that the Mayo physician thought EH may have been suffering from depression induced by Serpasil. I agree, we need very good sources, in the same manner that sources used to present other aspects of his biography or writing are selected from the best available. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

If it's helpful, there are more medical sources on Johnson at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome#Samuel Johnson (we significantly shortened the list of sources in the Johnson article, after facing all manner of absurd challenges during its FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The claim has been added on this article as well. I won't be removing it, but am posting here, not to forget the link. The number of medical sources for Johnson is impressive. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, that list a major WP:BLP nightmare. And I doubt anyone has time to check them all for {{MEDRS}}. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Scary isn't it? IP buts in a request to add bipolar information and here we are. Btw is that a TFA date at the top of this article? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Truthkeeper (or anyone else), I found this: Psychiatry. 2006 Winter;69(4):351-61. Ernest Hemingway: a psychological autopsy of a suicide. If you're interested. Email me and I will send it to you. --Moni3 (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

That's the abstract SandyGeorgia commented about below in the RfC. I have access to the article and tried reading yesterday, but my pdf reader is acting up so I can't see it. Will spend time troubleshooting. In the meantime, I think a sentence can be added from Reynolds somewhere in this section that EH fell into a depression in 1959, if you think that's appropriate. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey, no offense for knocking the studliest of studs and the object of your dedication, but my life is much better the longer I don't have to read Hemingway or about him. I'm still trying to cleanse myself of "The Big Two-Hearted River". I'm no authority on what should be added to this article. My neutrality about Hemingway's mental state I though would make it easier for me to step in and help work out stuff with the sources and avoid edit wars. Where reliably sourced information should go should be the decision of the editors who constructed this article. --Moni3 (talk) 13:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

You're funny! Have transitioned to a different computer - the article is printing now. Yes, I know what to add where. As for the object of my dedication - I'm pretty sick of him right now. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, well, I'm pretty sure Harvey Milk is laughing at me from beyond the grave for all the bullshit I've had to endure for his article. He always was a pranker. I'm sure he giggles every time I have to handle some other new problem at the article talk page. --Moni3 (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Evidence Hemmingway himself knew of diagnosis [21].Tstrobaugh (talk) 14:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine adding Martin's information from A Psychological Autopsy. It is however, heavily qualified. He uses words like "may have", "suggest", "can be construed as". The article is essentially a biography highlighting the WWI injury, father's suicide, drinking, multiple head injuries: all of which are already mentioned here. In his conclusion he writes: "When these interrelated factors are considered together, it becomes clear that Hemingway suffered from an enormous burden of psychiatric comorbidities and risk factors for suicide." (p. 363) He uses the biographies used here as evidence. He admits the diagnosis is not possible "in the absence of clinical evaluation of the subject." He goes on to say "One must speculate based on fragments of the subject's writing, other surviving documents and biography." If we can agree on the wording, then all is well. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I have access to this book in electronic format, all pages (as opposed to GoogleBooks which omits some chunks of pages) if anyone is interested in sources and what it cites. Not on weekends, however. --Moni3 (talk) 14:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Boldly added with liberal use of direct quotations. Am happy to discuss. Re, Literary Suicide - thanks for the offer, but I like old fashioned bound books. Will go the library. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Quality

An excellent article, well done. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 11:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Very nicely written.

I have a good photo of the Hemingway Memorial outside Sun Valley, if you'd like it. Sca (talk) 14:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I looked for one of the memorial. Would prefer a close up of the actual grave which is very simple, but would replace the existing image with one of the memorial. Thanks for offering. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I sent you two emails regarding delivery of the photo, which I'm happy to share. Sca (talk) 16:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

intro/summary

I made two edits to the first paragraph of theintro/summary that I thought were fairly benign, but since one was revereted (without comment) I'll address them here.

There is a statement that refers to "his apparent life of adventure and the public image he cultivated." I had removed "apparent" and "he cultivated", giving a detailed rationale in the comment. They were reverted without any corresponidng comment.

Neither of these unnecessary modifiers is backed up in the article, or even referred to. They imply something other than NPOV. I think by any reasonable standard Hemmingway's life can be objectively described as a "life of adventure". That's not a fanboy talking, it's just an assessment of the events in the article itself...active participation in several wars, far flung travel, safari, etc...regardless of the legendary aspects of Hemmingway, these are real events and qualify as an unmodified life of adventure. I'm not sure what's "apparent" about it.

On the second point, "he cultivated" implies an active shaping of legacy. This is not backed up in the article, and again, signifies a lack of NPOV. I suggest these two items be edited, or reason given as to why they are necessary and corresponding text be added to the article to back them up. Jbower47 (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually I agree with you, and intended rewrite the entire sentence but you fixed first. That he cultivated a public image is not disputed, but you're quite right, it's not developed in the article and should be. As for "apparent", again much of what he did was deliberately presented, but that also should be explained in the article. BTW - I will be moving this comment to bottom of the talkpage where new comments should be added. Thanks for the good advice. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I think, though, even if one agrees he actively cultivated his image, that his life remains one of adventure, by objective standard. If his life is not one of adventure, I am at a loss to think of one which would better exemplify that term:). Even as somehwat hyped as his legacy may have been, there was still a solid core of experience there that shouldn't be lost in consideration of whatever discrepancies there might have been (like the beach landings vs. being retained on the craft, which I'd still argue had less to do with personal promotion than delivering an expected story.) I appreciate it!Jbower47 (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I've always hated that sentence. An objective set of eyes is always welcome. The "apparent" has been removed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Jbower47, you mentioned being reverted without comment? I can't see any edits you've made to the article, so I'm guessing that an editor reviewed your edit and "unaccepted" it. I've not yet worked out how to see if that's occurred or not, so I can't offer much by way of explanation. In the meantime, if there are any further problems you can obviously get a sympathetic ear here on the talk page! TFOWR 15:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This this edit was made, and I replaced the word with the intention of rewriting the sentence entirely in a subsequent edit. My edit summary was somewhat terse for which I apologize. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography?

Less influential, and more prolific, authors' articles have lists of their work. Why doesn't this one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.140.16 (talk) 23:06, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway bibliography is a separate article, linked to in the See Also from this article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 142.179.223.60, 21 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Read the first sentence under the header "Paris". There is something missing there it does not make sense. Thanks.

142.179.223.60 (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

If you read the previous paragraph it makes more sense. Don't hesitate to post here if you still don't understand. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits re: bi-polar disease

We have to be very careful about this. In fact Hemingway was never diagnosed as bi-polar during his lifetime. His mental illness may have been caused by a number of mitigating factors such as a rare genetic disorder and an inordinate number of head injuries. Additionally he was an alcoholic for much of his life (no doubt in the sources on that) which causes mood swings, etc. I've examined these sources and found that they simply suggest the possiblity of the condition without confirming. It's very hard for an accurate diagnosis as Hemingway died 49 years ago. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not hard at all. There is a plethora of sources on this. You have to realize that all diagnosis are opinions. These are documented opinions, that's all. References are included and that's all that is needed to be valid and reliable on Wikipedia. See:[22].Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. His symptom may have been, and most likely were the result of the alcoholism. A diagnosis is definitely an opinion when the patient is dead. There is an opinion paper suggesting that Hemingway may have suffered from bi-polar - nowhere does the author declare definitively that he did. The second source is a student handbook, of much lower quality than the sources used here. Needs to be more than a documented opinion, and certainly should be worded better. The material had been reworded, the sources formatted, and left in the article, but commented out. In my view, it will take more than then the one opinion the add this information. Approximately 3000 to 4000 articles exist on Hemingway, and his biographers, who were very thorough, do not point to bi-polarism. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid we are at the end here. You didn't even look at the link above which provides hundreds of scientific sources for the bipolar claim. So this discussion was pointless as I knew it would be, I will revert without further comment.Tstrobaugh (talk) 17:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I see words such as "careful reading" and "suggest" - not a diagnosis. Thus, it's tricky to add. Sorry you want to revert without discussion. I'll download some of the better sources and read. If this information is to be left in, it should use the best possible source. A student handbook is not the best possible source. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The current version has it is widely believed that Hemingway suffered bipolar disorder. Does the Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway (the cite used) state that? Explicitly, does it say the belief is widely held? (That seems surprising, but I'm very, very far from being knowledgeable here.

Google turned up this, which seems intriguing as it suggest Hemingway has been "reliably diagnosed as having bipolar disorder". I'd like to see more - who diagnosed, and when?

The rest of the ghits were far less convincing: lots of "careful reading" and "speculation".

Oh, and both of you: WP:BRD ;-)

TFOWR 18:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway states: "He was diagnosed with what was then called manic-depressive illness but is now known as bipolar mood disorder." Contrary to above many biographies document Hemingways bipolar disorder (called Manic-Depressive then) [23]. Also: "Dr. Donald W. Goodwin asserts that there was reason to believe that Hemingway was diagnosed as a manic- depressive during his stay at the Mayo Clinic in 1961." [24].Tstrobaugh (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, do we know when he was diagnosed, per the Student Companion? If the Student Companion has more details on when he was diagnosed I'd be a lot happier with the current cite. I'm not seeing anything yet to support "widely believed", however.

I'm far less comfortable with Donaldson, "reason to believe" being less than satisfactory, but I've not got access to either Meyer or Donaldson. Could you cite what they say about the diagnosis?

TFOWR 18:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I very much respect Rose-Marie Burwell's work, in particular regarding the findings regarding his health. All she has is the suggestion that he was treated for manic- depression [25]. I'm sorry, but I can't access Donaldson (getting a blank page) but will keep trying. Reynolds, whose biography work is the most respected, simply suggests that Hemingway may have been treated for manic - depression - hence the ECT - at the Mayo. In my view it's appropriate (and should have been done earlier) to add that information to the article. But to assert unequivocally that he was diagnosed as bi-polar and that it's widely believed he was would be more difficult to verify with the best possible sources. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:58, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Reynolds biography - an extensive four volume work - cites the Mayo records. The depression was attributed to a medication called Serpasil (p. 350) sorry, I have the book, not a g link. Truly, I believe that if Reynolds thought the evidence was strong enough, he would have written definitively that EH was bi-polar. Instead he reports, as should we, what was done and why. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to what is being argued. Are we all in agreement that Hemingway had a "mental illness"?[26] Or is even that in question?Tstrobaugh (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Popping in to say it is not talk page consensus that determines if Hemingway had a mental illness. It will be sources. As Hemingway's major contributions to life on the planet had to do with literature (for some reason *cough*), decide what to put in the article on the talk page instead of rapid reverts.

"It is widely believed" is very poor phrasing for declaring anyone has or has had a mental illness. Retro diagnosis is also slippery. State if he was diagnosed. If not, which biographers claim he was mentally ill and be specific. Figure out the wording here on the talk page. Argue about it here, not in article space. --Moni3 (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If you would be so kind as to give me a moment or two write up the information that would helpful. We know from the sources that he suffered paranoia, delusions. The sources do not tell why. We do know (according to the sources) that he sustained multiple head injuries throughout his life, was an alcoholic, took a cocktail of medications (which I will add to the article but the 3RR report may prevent that). That's what the best sources tell us. I have both Meyers and Reynolds. Am taking Moni3's advice, but first am logging off so I can read the information and present it correctly. I have read both books more than once, but it's certainly possible that I've missed information. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

He has been reliably diagnosed [27]. Two kinds of people in the world Three wise monkeys and the Seek and ye shall find type. Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Internet communications are awful, Tstrobaugh. I can't tell if you're being helpful or not with the monkeys vs. seekers comment. Clearly there is a dispute about wording. The source you provided is not authoritative to state Hemingway's diagnosis. It does say he was diagnosed, but it does not provide any details. It assumes the reader is already familiar with Hemingway's mental illness. A book, journal article, or some other reliable source that discusses Hemingway's mental state in detail is necessary, particularly if editors are rapid reverting. It's best not to leave any questions. --Moni3 (talk) 20:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

What evidence is needed here? Actual hospital records? Is that standard to be applied to every incident of diagnoses on Wikipedia? Every physical and mental ailment mentioned? When I took psych in the 70's this was a known fact, under the heading "manic-depressive" was a picture of Hemingway, in fact in all of Wikipedia Hemingway is probably the most well know diagnosis.Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

No, hospital records are primary sources and secondary are preferred on Wikipedia. Surely there are sources that discuss Hemingway's mental issues. The journal link you provided cites Hochner AE: Papa Hemingway: The Ecstasy and the Sorrow. New York, Morrow, 1983. What does this book say? What do other books say about that source? --Moni3 (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

AE Hotchner was an editor for Cosmopolitan and a friend. Mary Hemingway sued him for writing his book Papa in the 1960s. It's best not to use Hotchner, and the article does not cite his work. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

My point about the seek and find is that if a person is truly hungry for knowledge and the truth they will seek it out themselves, but anyway I'll try again [28].Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, with that source, the phrasing becomes more tenuous. I hope you can see that necessity to tread lightly on how this will be worded. The page refutes the psychiatry journal article you linked to by saying Hemingway was undiagnosed. So Bruccoli asserts there was no diagnosis. How sure was he then of bipolar disorder? The Wiki article makes reference to haemochromatosis, but does not say how this condition affects one's mental state. That should be clarified if it has a bearing on perceptions of mental illness. Let's seek out what the best sources have to say. --Moni3 (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

This is what we know:

Reynolds, Michael. Hemingway the Final Years. 1999

(pages numbers from desk copy)

• p. 300 In 1957 Hemingway suffered from high blood pressure and alcohol withdrawal. He was prescribed new drug Serpasil to treat for withdrawal symptoms, though the long term effects were unknown.
• p. 300 Same year Hemingway was diagnosed with depression as a result of high blood pressure and alcoholism
• p. 321 For two decades he became depressed when finished with a writing project. In 1959 he finished the African book (True at First Light, A Moveable Feast and Garden of Eden - all published after his death) and became depressed after the work. At the time he was taking all of the following medications:
  • synthetic testosterone
  • Serpasil for anxiety
  • Doriden
  • Ritalin
  • Euncanil
  • Seconal
  • combined with huge amounts of alcohol.

Meyers, Jeffrey. Hemingway: A Biography. 1985

Discusses mental illness in pages 540-546 (in my book) which are cited in the article four times. In those pages, Meyers states:

• p. 544 No one knew what was wrong with him. Two sentences later: "Mary told people he had been manic-depressive"
• p. 545 Dr. Saviers admits to not knowing the diagnosis
• p. 546 next sentence "No one knew how to deal with the mental illness" - sons and brothers were not notified. Next sentence - a physician mentioned "depression" based on a verbal report from Hotchner without having met or examined Hemingway. Next sentence - Saviers knew Hemingway wouldn't agree to a mental hospital and Mary feared the publicity, so Saviers decided to bring him to the Mayo. Meyers points out the Hemingway did not attempt suicide until after the ECT treatments.

The rest describes the ECT treatments.

Hope this can help shape the conversation. What I personally believe is irrelevant. What the sources tell us, is. They do not mention bi-polar, but certainly the depressive episodes can (and should) be added. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your premise that post-mortem diagnoses are invalid [29].Tstrobaugh (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

To my knowledge, another FA, Samuel Johnson, mentions that he may have had Tourette Syndrome. He was posthumously diagnosed according to the Johnson article, even though the syndrome had not been named while he was alive. SandyGeorgia was the contributor to that article in TS issues specifically. I've asked her to weigh in on this discussion. --Moni3 (talk) 21:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

We can see the quality of the information degrade even here. Surely EH was not prescribed reserpine/Serpasil for anxiety and withdrawal, since it does nothing for either one. (It's for blood pressure, and CAUSES depression. Unfortunately, there were few good alternatives at the time). It would have been the Doriden that was prescribed for alcohol-withdrawal. And I have no idea what "Euncanil" is, and neither does the internet. Are you sure the spelling is correct? SBHarris 23:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's the link to Reynolds [30]. In my copy the list of medications, and reason for prescription, is listed on page 322. Can't access that page, so can't give you a link. Euncanil is spelled correctly but without explanation. I've added to the article that the Mayo physician thought EH may have been suffering from depression induced by Serpasil. I agree, we need very good sources, in the same manner that sources used to present other aspects of his biography or writing are selected from the best available. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

If it's helpful, there are more medical sources on Johnson at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome#Samuel Johnson (we significantly shortened the list of sources in the Johnson article, after facing all manner of absurd challenges during its FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The claim has been added on this article as well. I won't be removing it, but am posting here, not to forget the link. The number of medical sources for Johnson is impressive. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, that list a major WP:BLP nightmare. And I doubt anyone has time to check them all for {{MEDRS}}. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Scary isn't it? IP buts in a request to add bipolar information and here we are. Btw is that a TFA date at the top of this article? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Truthkeeper (or anyone else), I found this: Psychiatry. 2006 Winter;69(4):351-61. Ernest Hemingway: a psychological autopsy of a suicide. If you're interested. Email me and I will send it to you. --Moni3 (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

That's the abstract SandyGeorgia commented about below in the RfC. I have access to the article and tried reading yesterday, but my pdf reader is acting up so I can't see it. Will spend time troubleshooting. In the meantime, I think a sentence can be added from Reynolds somewhere in this section that EH fell into a depression in 1959, if you think that's appropriate. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey, no offense for knocking the studliest of studs and the object of your dedication, but my life is much better the longer I don't have to read Hemingway or about him. I'm still trying to cleanse myself of "The Big Two-Hearted River". I'm no authority on what should be added to this article. My neutrality about Hemingway's mental state I though would make it easier for me to step in and help work out stuff with the sources and avoid edit wars. Where reliably sourced information should go should be the decision of the editors who constructed this article. --Moni3 (talk) 13:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

You're funny! Have transitioned to a different computer - the article is printing now. Yes, I know what to add where. As for the object of my dedication - I'm pretty sick of him right now. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, well, I'm pretty sure Harvey Milk is laughing at me from beyond the grave for all the bullshit I've had to endure for his article. He always was a pranker. I'm sure he giggles every time I have to handle some other new problem at the article talk page. --Moni3 (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Evidence Hemmingway himself knew of diagnosis [31].Tstrobaugh (talk) 14:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine adding Martin's information from A Psychological Autopsy. It is however, heavily qualified. He uses words like "may have", "suggest", "can be construed as". The article is essentially a biography highlighting the WWI injury, father's suicide, drinking, multiple head injuries: all of which are already mentioned here. In his conclusion he writes: "When these interrelated factors are considered together, it becomes clear that Hemingway suffered from an enormous burden of psychiatric comorbidities and risk factors for suicide." (p. 363) He uses the biographies used here as evidence. He admits the diagnosis is not possible "in the absence of clinical evaluation of the subject." He goes on to say "One must speculate based on fragments of the subject's writing, other surviving documents and biography." If we can agree on the wording, then all is well. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I have access to this book in electronic format, all pages (as opposed to GoogleBooks which omits some chunks of pages) if anyone is interested in sources and what it cites. Not on weekends, however. --Moni3 (talk) 14:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Boldly added with liberal use of direct quotations. Am happy to discuss. Re, Literary Suicide - thanks for the offer, but I like old fashioned bound books. Will go the library. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Quality

An excellent article, well done. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 11:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Very nicely written.

I have a good photo of the Hemingway Memorial outside Sun Valley, if you'd like it. Sca (talk) 14:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I looked for one of the memorial. Would prefer a close up of the actual grave which is very simple, but would replace the existing image with one of the memorial. Thanks for offering. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I sent you two emails regarding delivery of the photo, which I'm happy to share. Sca (talk) 16:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

intro/summary

I made two edits to the first paragraph of theintro/summary that I thought were fairly benign, but since one was revereted (without comment) I'll address them here.

There is a statement that refers to "his apparent life of adventure and the public image he cultivated." I had removed "apparent" and "he cultivated", giving a detailed rationale in the comment. They were reverted without any corresponidng comment.

Neither of these unnecessary modifiers is backed up in the article, or even referred to. They imply something other than NPOV. I think by any reasonable standard Hemmingway's life can be objectively described as a "life of adventure". That's not a fanboy talking, it's just an assessment of the events in the article itself...active participation in several wars, far flung travel, safari, etc...regardless of the legendary aspects of Hemmingway, these are real events and qualify as an unmodified life of adventure. I'm not sure what's "apparent" about it.

On the second point, "he cultivated" implies an active shaping of legacy. This is not backed up in the article, and again, signifies a lack of NPOV. I suggest these two items be edited, or reason given as to why they are necessary and corresponding text be added to the article to back them up. Jbower47 (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually I agree with you, and intended rewrite the entire sentence but you fixed first. That he cultivated a public image is not disputed, but you're quite right, it's not developed in the article and should be. As for "apparent", again much of what he did was deliberately presented, but that also should be explained in the article. BTW - I will be moving this comment to bottom of the talkpage where new comments should be added. Thanks for the good advice. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I think, though, even if one agrees he actively cultivated his image, that his life remains one of adventure, by objective standard. If his life is not one of adventure, I am at a loss to think of one which would better exemplify that term:). Even as somehwat hyped as his legacy may have been, there was still a solid core of experience there that shouldn't be lost in consideration of whatever discrepancies there might have been (like the beach landings vs. being retained on the craft, which I'd still argue had less to do with personal promotion than delivering an expected story.) I appreciate it!Jbower47 (talk) 15:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I've always hated that sentence. An objective set of eyes is always welcome. The "apparent" has been removed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Jbower47, you mentioned being reverted without comment? I can't see any edits you've made to the article, so I'm guessing that an editor reviewed your edit and "unaccepted" it. I've not yet worked out how to see if that's occurred or not, so I can't offer much by way of explanation. In the meantime, if there are any further problems you can obviously get a sympathetic ear here on the talk page! TFOWR 15:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This this edit was made, and I replaced the word with the intention of rewriting the sentence entirely in a subsequent edit. My edit summary was somewhat terse for which I apologize. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes and main page day

Truthkeeper and everyone else, since this is pretty new, can you describe what the problems and advantages are to having this new system? I see vandalism from IPs getting through. How is that happening? I also see that accepting changes registers in a time lag, meaning I can approve of a change, refresh my list, and the pending request still appears. It also seems quite slow to load the diff when reading the potential change to the article. --Moni3 (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm seeeing some inconsistencies. I rollbacked an error and I think because of a time-lag it didn't go through [32]; when I tried again, [33] I ended up reverting the previous edit, and I was asked to "accept" but the "unaccept" button didn't light up (at that point I realized I'd rollbacked twice); someone else accepted thereby allowing the bad edit through. This edit from an IP [34] is odd because it seems to have gone through. Also, most of the lead was blanked, [35] and seems to have gone through. Some content edits that are incorrect are being accepted, but not much to do about that. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 11:39, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: Some content edits that are incorrect are being accepted Don't quote me on this, and I'll try and dig out where I discovered this in case I'm wrong, but I believe that we're supposed to accept all pending changes unless they're obviously vandalism. I've interpreted that to mean "accept a dodgy, non vandal, edit; then fix it". As I say, don't quote me on that... and I'll try and get confirmation. TFOWR 11:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

It's maybe my understanding of Wikipedia:Reviewing#Reviewing process: If you find no reason not to accept the new revision, then accept it from the reviewing screen; accepting doesn't prevent you from later editing the article to address concerns you may still have. The reasons given for "not accepting" are the obvious ones: WP:BLP, WP:VAND, WP:COPYVIO, WP:ATTACK. TFOWR 11:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec)You're correct, I've read that too. As I said, there's nothing to be done about it. But on articles like this, now under pending changes and with semi-protection removed, the main editors will spend more time tending articles than before. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 11:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

TFOWR - do you know why my own rollback wasn't accepted? Would it have been because I rollbacked twice, or maybe because of a timelag? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 11:50, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Too true, I've found I accept a load of nonsense, then feel obliged to fix it. I guess that's a good thing, but I'd rather not be spending my time editing sections on "Baseball in South Africa" (one of the many subjects about which I know nothing). Don't know about rollback: I agree with Moni3 about slowness and lag, so I'm inclined to say that PC is making some things more prone to problems. I'll look around today at the PC chats and see if this is something other editors have noticed. TFOWR 11:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Another point: this edit [36] which cut the lead, would not have been visible to the editor, but visible to anyone with a userright above autoconfirmed. The software prompted me to accept, but obviously I didn't want accept and again the "unaccept" button wasn't active, so I ended up rolling back. Instead should have hit undo with an edit summary, but was frustrated. The result was a bit bitey I think, and I'll leave a note on the user's page today. Bottom line, rollback might now be obsolete, and am unclear why the "unaccept" button is dead. Could that be a browser problem? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd definitely recommend undo in a situation like that: rollback allows no edit summary, so whatever the (totally understandable) intention the result looks bitey. I'd agree that rollback is obsolete for this (except in clear cases of vandalism or WP:BLP issues, etc), but that's true of rollback in general (I think it's overrated, myself - but I tend to use Twinkle where there's two options: an AGF option which allows an edit summary, and a VAND option that functions like rollback but with an automated "You are a vandal so I reverted you" edit summary).

Don't know about the unaccept button: I have noticed one of the buttons being disabled, but I'm too stupid to remember which one...! I'll try and look out for it today. On your diff it was "greyed out", but I'm guessing that's because the revision had already been reviewed. I'll try and look out for it. On your diff it was "greyed out", but I'm guessing that's because the revision had already been reviewed.

TFOWR 13:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You don't have to accept changes which are not of the type that are specifically mentioned, the guideline just says what you should definitely not approve if you find it. You can edit articles as usual, even if there are pending changes, it shouldn't stop you. That you fix then accept, or accept then fix an edit which is not of the type specifically mentioned in the guideline, doesn't make a difference in terms of policy. We can't put a burden on reviewers when editing articles which pending changes which wouldn't be shared by other users. Cenarium (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's not terribly clear to me - and therein may be the problem. If a editor who writes and tends an article with a strong history of vandalism doesn't quite understand the system, and finds the article is being used as an experiment on the main page, well, that's all a bit disconcerting. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:34, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

It could be that I've been reading The Onion for the past hour, but I honestly don't understand most of what you just posted. --Moni3 (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

So, let me try to get this clear. An editor should accept the change, and then go into the 8000+ word article to fix the mistake to prevent putting a burden on reviewers? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to be more clear. I see three concerns:

1. PC can affect editing by regular editors.

My view: We need to avoid putting a burden on regular editors. Regular editors should not feel compelled to edit articles in a different way because there are pending changes, you can address new edits as you would do otherwise, by reverting, fixing, etc, the only difference is that you have the possibility to accept when you are done (or before if you feel it's appropriate) and thus making the new edits visible (which would be advised, though not required). The reviewing guideline mentions what editors should not accept, but not what reviewers should accept. For example you don't have to accept an edit which you plan to revert but is not of a type specifically flagged in the guideline (vandalism, BLP violation, etc), you can just revert the edit (and the software should normally automatically accept so it's faster). Though in the mean time another reviewer may have accepted the edit.

2. With PC instead of SP, there are more inappropriate edits.

My view: If the balance goes too far on the side of inappropriate edits, we should go back to SP, as noted in the policy and done for example at Bible.

3. Using PC instead of SP can degrade article quality due to more editing by inexperienced users.

My view: This is inherent to open editing and can be said of any article, on the other hand it can also allow article improvement that would otherwise not have occurred, again as with all articles.

On this specific case, I imagine that there won't be that many edits when this'll be off the main page, but we can switch back to SP if needed. Cenarium (talk) 22:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Much more clear. Thanks. I agree with each point. Not sure about your view on point 3 though in regards to FA articles. In my view, for articles such as this that require protection (the amount of vandalism has been remarkably low today), it's a disincentive to bring an article to FA status, go through FAC, fix and fix again, knowing the article will be subject to rapid degradation under PC. I believe I saw a proposal on a talkpage to test PC on all 2000 FA articles, which I think would be unwise. Appreciate the offer to move back to SP, but am actually fascinated by the few number of edits today, so keeping as an experiment for PC for a few days would be fine as the bulk of the editing is done. If the article sees a quick degradation, would it be difficult to request SP at a later time? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

In all honesty, after a couple times on the front page, getting a featured article simply isn't worth it, and I don't think a lot of that is from pending changes. I've written a couple articles that are FA-quality that I will probably never nominate because I simply do not want to deal with the stress of main page day. --Moni3 (talk) 22:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't nominate and when someone else did I argued against having it on the main page. That said, the amount of vandalism has actually been less than during periods when it was unprotected and I was working on it. That was a bit of a nightmare, and being fairly new, I didn't know what to do until someone came along and protected it. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the primary issue is that it's essential that content remain intact while allowing earnest attempts at article improvement and suggestions. The software does not seem to be able to handle the volume of main page editing when it gets fast and furious. It takes a longer time to load the diff to see the IP changes. When changes are approved or undone, the action lags, allowing for edit conflicts. Editors who are trying to ensure the integrity of the article, to make up for edit conflicts, are allowing vandalism to be inserted, overturning good edits or vandalism removal and they don't realize it. It's very confusing to tell what's going on in the article. I think the major concerns are the pragmatic issues in using this new system while trying to maintain the article on main page day. --Moni3 (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

• Could I suggest continuing the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Reviewing? There are some great points above, and I've certainly been seeing issues with pending changes today (and over the past few days). It would be good to get the comments here out to a wider audience. TFOWR 22:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
  • I need to be gone for a while. Link from there to here, perhaps? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

    No hurry, and I have to go offline shortly too. Give the others a chance to object, and if not I'll do some re-jigging tomorrow? TFOWR 23:01, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I started a thread at Talk:Reviewing, here. I thought it might be better for Truthkeeper to start it, but noting the topic directly above it referenced the main page day article and I struck while the iron was hot. --Moni3 (talk) 23:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for moving the discussion. I had to shut down the computer because of a storm. Sitting at the computer discussing pending changes with thunder & lightning in the background, you begin to wonder a little about your priorities. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

;-) Supposed to be stormy in Glasgow, too. Not happened yet. But Moni3, aye, thanks for that. WP:PEND is, I think, worth talking about in front of a wider audience and I'm glad there is a debate happening. I'm still in two minds about it - I see advantages and disadvantages, and the two lists keep growing the more I work with it. TFOWR 09:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hemingway's Cuba Connections

It is surprising in a featured, lengthy article like this there is such a great lack of info on Hemingway's Cuba connections including his close friendship with Fidel Castro (including their fishing races together), the Marina named after him outside Havana and the numerous places around Cuba (mostly in Havana) that have links to him, including a hotel room in Havana where he stayed and that is now a display in his honor (He wrote part of "For Whom the Bells..." here). --Arash azizi (talk) 07:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

For someone such as Hemingway, about whom so much information exists, it's difficult to add everything into a single article. The article does include a link to the Hotel Ambos Mundos (Havana) and that article includes some of information you've mentioned above. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 11:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

See also Floridita. Castro actually won a fishing contest in the Summer of 1960 and Hemingway presented him with the award. However, when EH and Mary left Cuba shortly after that, they never got back. Relations with Cuba turned sour that Fall, Cuba confiscated most American property (and industry from many countries) at that time. The US broke off relations and made it very difficult for Americans to travel to Cuba. So far as I can see, the Cubans didn't actually confiscate the Finca then, but EH and Mary probably both knew it was coming, and they couldn't get back to the country. In any case, EH spent the first half of 1961 being treated for depression (perhaps he could not have been as depressed had he been able to get back to his home in Cuba!) The Bay of Pigs happened in April 1961 and Castro announced Cuba was a Communist State on May Day, 1961. EH comitted suicide July 2, 1961 and Mary got a call from the Cuban government as soon as they heard about it, strong arming her into giving up the Finca as a museum. She really had little choice. They let her have some paintings and Havana bank vault contents, and she took what she could. SBHarris 05:05, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hemingway and cats

Is it worth mentioning that he was an ardent cat lover and that polydactyl cats are informally known in the US as "Hemingway cats" after the famous ones that he kept at Key West? Refs [37], [38], also loads of pics on google images when you type in 'Ernest Hemingway cat'. 86.133.53.158 (talk) 17:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at Ernest Hemingway House about the property and the cats. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Would it be worth adding it to the see also section? They're great repositories for peripheral information. TFOWR 17:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, but Ernest Hemingway House is linked in the caption - used to be linked in the article. Need to fix the link. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:34, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're quite right, sorry. It's in the Key West and the Caribbean section. I'd done a Ctrl+f on "Ernest Hemingway House", which missed it. Apologies for the noise! TFOWR 17:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I added to see also anyway. There's a great interest in the polydactyl cats. Sometimes links are taken down per WP:OVERLINKING and I think that was one. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Having just clicked on polydactyl cat I heartily approve - we can never have too many black cats. ;-) TFOWR 17:57, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That is The Cat. I think that cat may be descended from one of the kittens shown in this File: File:Hemingwayboyscats cuba.jpg, so even the pedigrees are known. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/hemingway_review/v023/23.1hemingway.html

As the article on the 907 Whitehead St. Key West house notes (and also the article above) all primary sources agree that Hemingway didn't ever keep cats in Key West. Peacocks, yes, cats, no. The polydactyl cats that overrun the grounds of today's Key West house arrived sometime after Hemingway and Pauline divorced in 1940, after which Pauline moved out of the house, and rented it. It continued to be owned jointly, I think, by both EH and Pauline, and after Pauline's death in 1951, by her estate. It wasn't sold until EH's death in 1961. Considering that Pauline's family had given them the house on their marriage, I'm amazed that EH didn't give Pauline his half of the house back in 1940, but apparently she tortured him by making him pay $500/mo child support, and he got back at her by refusing to give up his half of the house. In any case, none of the Hemingways lived in the house after 1940, and I don't think Ernest saw the place for many years after he stopped by it to get some of his things out of it in the Summer of 1939, after Pauline and the kids left him in Wyoming. Apparently he did stay at the house sometimes in the 1950's when he was in Key West, but since there was somebody living in the main house, he stayed in his old writing den in the upper floor of the carriage house. In any case, none of this would be conditions for cat-keeping. At least not cats owned by Hemingway.

Hemingway did keep cats in Cuba, but only after 1941 or so. He rented the Finca for Martha from mid 1939 until marrying Martha in late 1940, and then bought it with some of the first royalties from For Whom the Bell Tolls in December. Cats arrived later. The first was Princessa, the gray Persian you see in the middle of the cat photo at the Finca above. This cat was bought from a breeder in Key West. To either side (Good Will and Boise) are two males acquired as kittens in Cuba (although they are nearly full grown in this photo) in mid 1942. The photo date from internal evidence is late 42 or early 43, not late 1946. From these cats were descended most of EH's Cuban cats that had exploded in numbers by 1943. However, there is no mention that any of these were polydactyl-- and EH wrote a great deal about his cats.

There is a book called Hemingway's Cats if you want the known dope on all of this (I haven't read any more of it than what's on Google Books). However, one thing is clear: Hemingway didn't know the first thing about keeping cats! The first thing about male cats is they must be neutered young if kept indoors, unless you're willing to put up with constant urine marking and odor from that. Female cats must be spayed unless you don't mind an exponentially growing cat population (which can outpace any owner). Both these things happened to Hemingway. He didn't care about the spraying and odor, but Martha did. When she had some of his males neutered while he was on a trip, he nearly divorced her for it. I think Hemingway's cats and their smell probably helped drive the fastidious Martha into long trips, and we know how that ended. When Mary inherited the Finca after 1946, she exiled nearly all the cats to the white "cat tower."

To this day the Cuban philosophy about cats seems to be "let them breed and drown the surplus." It's a Spanish thing, I think. SBHarris 04:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

But I still think a brief (very brief) mention in this article wouldn't be out of place. It's one of the few things I knew about his personal life before reading this article and I was suprised it wasn't mentioned at all. Also, it would give more context to the photo of Hemingway and his sons and 3 cats in Cuba ... Sure, mention of the present-day cat population at the EH house should be in the EH House article, but a mention in EH's article to explain why they were there in the first place would be good. 86.133.53.158 (talk) 06:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that I don't think anybody knows where the Key West cats came from (except that they arrived after the Hemingway family had gone in 1940), so we don't KNOW why they were there in the first place. All Hemingway's Cuban cats were abandoned when the Hemingways could not return to Cuba, and if there are any of their descendants left in Cuba, it's certainly not because the Cuban govenment cares for them. So there is some irony that the cats very carefully kept and bred in Key West were never Hemingway's, while at the Finca where Hemingway once kept many cats, none are left exept perhaps some feral ones or those cared for by neighbors in the area.

I'll be glad to put in the photo and a couple of lines if anybody else wants to see it in this article. Otherwise, it occurs in both the Hemingway House article and the Finca Vigia article. SBHarris 18:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Luckily we have a nice image of the cats in Cuba. I suspect the caption could be expanded more so that we see him with the first of the cats and explain the cats. If that's not enough a sentence is easily added to the article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I'll put in the photo with a longish caption and see if that works. SBHarris 18:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I've been watching developments from afar, but a couple reminders: the "see also" section should not typically include links that are already linked in the article; the current version detracts from legitimate "see also" links. Plus, the new cat-friendly caption is waaay too long, almost a full paragraph! Do we need to know that cats' names, or their ancestors' entire history? If it's that important, include it in the prose -- one sentence, like Truthkeeper says above. But let's not get carried away trying to please everyone. (Full disclosure: I'm deathly allergic to cats. Bleh.) María (habla conmigo) 19:24, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, now you're trying to please YOU, who don't like cats. Groan. The deal is that the cats have got to go in the article SOMEWHERE, and they aren't discussed in the section on the Hemingway house in Key West. However, they are very significant and notable part of the Hemingway legacy, for reasons appreciated only to cat-fanciers (I admit I'm partial to cats). However, the house in Key West is devoted to cat breeding, and is one of the major reasons people go to see it. Yes, that's the place to discuss this more fully, but that IS the place this is discussed more fully. There's nothing wrong with a long caption per se (do you think the caption police will arrest us?). The long caption here keeps us from having to add cat info to the Key West house caption, or to the main article (where I agree that it would start to be a bit silly). But literally thousands of visitors a year interested in the "Hemingway cats" and at least one book devoted to them, means they should get a couple of lines in a photo caption. But I welcome input from others. So far we have two PRO (me and the editor above) and you against. Meanwhile, I'll remove the cat names. SBHarris 19:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

As soon as I get to my references (in a few hours) I'll see what the biographers have to say about the cats and add cited information to the text. Obviously the cats are of interest, and I think from an encylopedic point-of-view okay to mention briefly in the article. The issue is where, but the sources will help with that. On a separate note, I'm concerned about the Fair Use Policy for the new image because I believe 3d art (as in a sculpture) requires specific copyright templates. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I, who am quite proud to continue my legacy of ignorance about Hemingway, know about the cats and Hemingway punching things, bedding lonely nurses, drinking barrels of fortified wine, gritting his teeth, remembering lonely nurses, and shooting himself. I don't think details about the cats' names are part of his impact on literature and punching things. I like cats. I love Key West. I'm ambivalent bordering on poking my eyes out with a fork when forced to read Hemingway. I gotta question how important the cats are. --Moni3 (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

It is true that he almost got divorced when his third wife took advantage of his absence to have the cats neutered, and given the theme of emasculation in his literature you gotta wonder how bad that fight must have been! His leaving of Martha for Mary is a bit abrupt in the article, so I might be able slip the cats in there - Martha couldn't stand his uncouth ways and the cats (or some such), but need the sources, currently in a room with a sleeping child. Priorities again. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I was going to say something serious, perhaps along the lines of "risk of becoming overwhelmed by images with overlong captions and superfluous, repeated links... blah blah blah... WP:SEEALSO says to 'generally' not repeat see also links, WP:CAPTION says to keep captions 'succinct'"... but now I can't stop thinking Hemingway: machismo, woman-jew-homo hating drunkard brute with a thing for small, fluffy creatures that like to purr and play with yarn. So I guess I'll just be quiet now. María (habla conmigo) 20:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I took the cats names out and shortened the caption. Yes, the castration anxiety thing is interesting and I certain think it's part of H. not wanting to "cut" his male cats. I'm not sure it's the place to get it into the article. The cat photo is worth putting in for other reasons (a good shot of the boys and family life) and gives us an excuse to put in the rest of the story.

As for the photo of the bronze statue, it's in a "open to general public" space, not a museum! (There are statues by the same José Villa Soberón (please see) all over Havana). Surely copyright doesn't apply to photos of public statuary and sculpture. As well claim that we can't take photos of buildings or any public business establishment interiors. SBHarris 20:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Maria gets a roflcopter for the image. --Moni3 (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Excellent LOLCAT. And please remember the nuance for Hemingway. He was antisemitic when young, but got over most of it. He wasn't completely homophobic, as he had no problem with lesbians. And it wasn't all women he disliked, just American women (so he said-- except he married four of them). ;). Yeah he was a drunken brute, I give you that. SBHarris 20:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the history lesson, Sbharris -- you'd think my two degrees in English, with one undergrad class dedicated solely to Hemingway, would have taught me something about the man! What was I thinking? :p María (habla conmigo) 20:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome! If you didn't know the man personally, you probably learned about him from the same sources I did. And I presume you've been to all these places yourself, also, as I have; good for you. We can have a debate about "credentialism" but I can only report that I never make the mistake of thinking I know all or even most of what there is to know about the subjects I have sheepskins for. There's always something new to learn from somebody. And if I disagree, I should have a reference. That said, I like Steinbeck better and know more about him, so we may "meet" again there. SBHarris 22:30, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there a source for the Key West cats arriving after 1940? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the 2003 article in the Hemingway review says that, more or less. I got more from it on a Google search which gave me some inner text, but the abstract should be enough for the fact that EH had no cats in Key West. Do you need a source for Pauline and the kids moving out after 1940? SBHarris 22:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I overlooked the abstract. If it's from the Hemingway Review I can access it later. The rest will be in the books.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2010 (UTC)