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Language Debate

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OK, I get the idea. You hate English and wish that the Irish language was used more in Ireland. Good for you. Start knocking on doors and telling people to teach in Irish. "English Medium" on the other hand means what any of the zillion pages that a Google search on that term tells you that it means - not what Irish nationalist polemicists wish it meant. I'm not saying that any of your oh so carefully selected quotes are wrong - after all, you can cast almost anything in a negative light with a select version of the truth. But writing an embittered article attacking the spread of English isn't going to help you promoting Irish much, is it? -- Stibbs

Perhaps you could give me some constructive criticism instead of trying to hurl personal insults at me? It is noteworthy that the Irish and Scots Gaelic version of this article have not received such attention.

If I have misrepresented the historical record then please tell me where I have made the mistake/s. Eog1916 20:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is purely a polemic intended to place the spread of the English Language in a bad light. Every paragraph is selected for that purpose. And I'd already pointed out that your article is an exercise in selective truth rather than outright lies. And of course the partiality of the Gaelic versions would be expected. We have people like you in Wales - determined to make those of us that can only speak English seem like second class citizens in our own country. I've looked at your other edits - adding "English Medium" to a whole bunch of Irish schools to much annoyance where it was noticed. Your motivation is quite transparently political. -- Stibbs

Dear Stibbs,

A 'polemic' is an aggressive debate, attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another. How on Earth is my contribution therefore a polemic? Surely your own statement is more akin to a polemic? You state that I 'hate English' for instance, which is a studied insult and a lie...but then if you intend to be aggressive I suppose that this is only to be expected. You write;' "English Medium" on the other hand means what any of the zillion pages that a Google search on that term tells you that it means'. Surely the point of my article is to explain what it means, something that had been lacking up until now in Wikipedia? If you have problems with my so called polemic, then surely you can 'amend it' or 'add to it', instead of erasing it? Are you in favour of free expresion and the dissemination of knowledge or censorship and dictatorship? I would have expected more from one who is entrusted with editorial powers. Wikipedia content is intended to be factual, notable, verifiable with external sources, and neutrally presented, with external sources cited and I will always strive to meet these criteria...your help therefore would be appreciated but not your obvious attempts at personal insult.

I have tried to define what English medium education is and to give a short history of its origins and effects. That I have dwelt on subject matter from these islands is because of my specific knowledge in this area.

I have not sought to offend your sensibilities regarding your own mother tongue ( my mother tongue is English) or your sense of belonging or not belonging to a particular national grouping. That you evidently think that this was my intention is of course a cause of great concern for me and one which I would like to rectify. Eog1916 13:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to you, Mr Easter 1916, English medium education is all a plot by the nasty mean English who have been leading us around by the nose all the time. The fact that nobody else has gone to the trouble of writing a balanced article on English education with details on its spread around the world and how it got to its current state together with all the necessary references that a Wikipedia article requires does not excuse the presence of a polemic. Pointing across the border and saying "it's all their fault" is a self-belittling exercise which lets us avoid the current local issues that we might need to deal with. You see, I don't want my history defined in terms of inferiority to the English, especially when that's not true for the most part. -- Stibbs

Dear Stibbs,

It would appear that you are still only interested in writing a polemic about my wiki article and in indulging in personal insults!

That you are evidently not interested in providing any substantive argument to back up your opinions is sad state of affairs.

Maybe you would like to explain what you mean by "Mr Easter 1916","Pointing across the border",and " my history"?

Evelyn Waugh stated that "We can trace almost all the disasters of English history to the influence of Wales".

But I digress, mea culpa.

Perhaps Gaius Petronius Arbite had you in mind when he stated "In alio pediculum, in te ricinum non vides''?

Eog1916 17:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article does seem to comprise a POV essay advocating that English medium education is purely a cultural assimilation tool, with no attempt at neutrality whatsoever. Added neutrality and personal-essay templates to article. --Farry 13:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What would be a neutral point of view on the use of the English Medium education - ie what are the other points of view to advocate?

Its not a great article, almost a third of the references are to wikipedia articles themselves and I'm not sure how that paragraph describing the effects of a lack of foreign language education sits with the rest of the article, the two aren't really linked Alastairward 13:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Alastair, Perhaps you might be so kind as to expand a little on what you mean by "I'm not sure how that paragraph describing the effects of a lack of foreign language education sits with the rest of the article"? I'm sorry that you did not find the article of much merit...I did spend some considerable amount of time on it! My use of other Wiki articles as references seems also to be a problem to you...I wonder why?

Eog1916 20:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comments

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Note - I have no idea who requested an RFC or why, I'm just fixing broken RfC templates as best I can. DMcMPO11AAUK/Talk/Contribs 02:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]



Responses to RfC

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  • I didn't find the article particularly POV. I suggest that you set up a to-do box on this user page and the first item should be to find in-line references. There are many scholarly books cited at the end - can they be used in-line instead? There are probably too many quotes, and they need formatting, probably using the blockquote style. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References and the first paragraph

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The first reference was to an article, one of many that I've read elsewhere, on the spread of English world wide. Its been widely referenced as a criticism of the lack of foreign language for UK school children, here its just a simple criticism of English Medium Education. The use of wikipedia articles as your references is simply being lazy.

I'd support the tags on this article, given your other editing of wikipedia articles, you do seem to be on something of a personal crusade against the English Language! Alastairward 18:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

well, its simple but hard to find an idea of which this article is made for what point of view to be discuss? Anyway, what if we will have another topic regarding English language matter but not in this section.--Jeshermoza 19:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistan

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Pakistan is a modern nation and not part of the British Raj (which has been defunct for decades, in case the author of that entry missed that). The information included here originally on Pakistan was added to the main article on Pakistan was changed as it was quite incorrect, I have made changes to the content in this article to reflect this Alastairward (talk) 13:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Section breaks

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I have broken down the post-British Colonial Indian Empire into something a little less confusing and less NPOV Alastairward (talk) 21:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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India (in particular)

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I looked at this article to get information about English-language education in India (just to find out how to refer to it really): as a copy-editor I'd asked an author whether 'English-educated', in an Indian context, but in the Victorian age, meant educated in the English language or educated in England. (It was the former.) I was surprised that India as a country wasn't included in this article: references to India were under 'the British Raj', which isn't a country, though that era was relevant to my particular query. But there are people born after Indian independence who have attended English-medium schools: it's not just a matter of history. A good grasp of English is useful to many people at present: it's rather like Latin in Western Europe in the Middle Ages. Diachronically the current dominance of English is due to the British Empire, but synchronically it has much to do with the status of the USA as Top Nation. Should the historical and the contemporary be acknowledged in each country section?

And should the countries be in alphabetical order? Snugglepuss (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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