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Disputed info

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Some editors have heavily resisted the inclusion of referenced information. Apparently any discussion of Thursday (band) and related bands is a big NO NO here (I wasn't aware...). Anyways, Although referring to these bands as screamo may fringe on breaking the balance of "the misuse of the term screamo," it IS appropriate to cite that many such bands reflect some attributes of screamo. Considering that editors have ALSO disputed any inclusion of information about Nintendocore and crunkcore (two well referenced notable genres that derive some influence from screamo), I lumped all of this information into a section called "Influence on other styles." HOPEFULLY people will stop vandalizing this page by removing such information. By putting it in this section, readers will be able to differentiate 'original' screamo from these styles that are merely influenced by some aspects of screamo. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 18:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the info about Thursday and all of the other bands mentioned in allmusic back up to the "modern screamo" section, as there is NO reason it shouldn't be there unless third-party sources question the bands mentioned, and even then, only the bands that are challenged should be moved. I think the rest was a good move on your part, though crunkcore is an actual screamo fusion, and should be mentioned as such.--3family6 (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. I guess I was trying too hard to keep the peace with that other guy who kept vandalizing the page, lol. Referenced information is referenced information. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 19:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think one of the reasons for these problems is because screamo is a post-hardcore style, which explains bands like Thursday. I personally have almost no clue of how to distinguish one hardcore style from another, but I don't really need to because Wikipedia runs on sources.--3family6 (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! That definitely explains much of the confusion. Also a lot of die-hard fans of old screamo and emotional hardcore bands have a hard time allowing any other modern groups to be defined as such. But references are references. According to the sources on the article (including the Allmusic source) screamo defines an abrasive style of hardcore punk and emo. I think this page has been under the strict control of those "die-hard", stubborn, fans who don't accept references for far too long. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 20:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a common thread in a lot of new genre names that I see in Wikipedia pages all the time, where various artists representative of the genre state that they don't consider themselves (whatever genre). As most genre names are not created by bands, but by journalists and fans, that a given artist doesn't consider themselves a given genre name is not factually useful or even relevant information. 69.244.155.82 (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Time for an overhaul?

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I think it might be time to give this page a serious rewrite. The way it currently reads sounds like it was written in the mid-2000s, when a lot of (fairly clueless) media outlets had gotten into the habit of calling any post-hardcore band with screaming in it "screamo." It got so bad at one point that people actually start using "real screamo" or "skramz" to refer to actual screamo bands, because the "screamo" name had become so diluted and meaningless.

In retrospect, that was a very silly time in music, and most people familiar with the genre now realize that screamo has a much more complicated definition than "music with screaming in it." Post-hardcore is post-hardcore, and screamo is screamo. Orchid, Seatia, pg.99, etc. are screamo. Senses Fail, Underoath, and Alexisonfire (all bands cited in the current screamo article) are not. Unfortunately, they can't simply be deleted, because there's valid-ish citations of media outlets from a few years ago calling those bands "screamo."

Instead of the way it currently is, the article should be rewritten to reflect the fact that screamo is a fairly narrowly defined genre, but that there was a period in the mid-to-late-2000s when the term was conflated with post-hardcore and some metalcore. This allows the history of this mis-usage to remain intact, but distinguishes between this and what is truly meant by the term screamo.

I'd be willing to help out with this rewrite, but I'm not going to waste my time if people are going to revert it back to its current state because of decade-old citations from oblivious media outlets. Hence, I'm asking other editors what they think should be done. Thoughts? EznorbYar (talk) 01:53, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So then what makes screamo different from other types of rock that have screaming in it? I think this is your starting point. If you get a good, reliable, authoritative source on what makes screamo screamo, then that would help your cause. MidnightRequestLine (talk) 04:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This definitely needs an overhaul. There needs to be a distinction made between metalcore "screamo" and screamo that is influenced by 90's screamo.72.76.167.126 (talk) 00:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely needs an overhaul. Unfortunatel,y unless someone is able to contact people who could be considered authorities on screamo (true screamo) it will be impossible to prove that nintedocore and crunkcore are not screamo simply because ignorant media posted about it. Craksmok (talk) 04:50, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

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Hi fellow editors! I reintroduced the section about the misuse of the term "screamo" and made some edits to the organization (the characteristics section primarily, which repeated several statements) without removing content. I think it's very important to retain a brief statement in the intro about the misapplication of the term "screamo" as an umbrella term for all music that features screamed vocals. I think that discourages further misapplication of the the term and clarifies why so many references exist claiming that a million and one bands are screamo, when they are in-fact practitioners of another genre entirely. If anyone has any comments ore suggested edits please discuss here. Thanks! -Chrisbkoolio (talk) 23:40, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, FYI, the characteristics section now has 4 examples: One of 1990s screamo, one of commercial 2000s screamo, one of mid 2000s contemporary screamo, and one of 2010s screamo-revival. All these are mentioned in citations either in the body (History section) or directly in the sound-file-box. It's important for readers to understand their relationship to the genre.--Chrisbkoolio (talk) 02:24, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Crunkcore

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May Crunkcore be added in Derivative forms? Dekai Averett (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely be opposed because there is no evidence of a link with the actual screamo sound which this article discusses (Heroin/Orchid/CTTS style screamo). The mere usage of high-pitched screams does not make crunkcore a derivative.--MASHAUNIX 15:13, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bringing this back – I am definitely in favour of this section's removal. The source that's cited (the Guardian article) appears to be tongue-in-cheek / parody. If someone had taken the time to actually read it they might have noticed that. Sgnaf (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody's replied with anything to suggest that this is unwarranted, so I'm going to proceed in removing this. Sgnaf (talk) 06:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This makes sense to me. Thanks. Yilloslime (talk) 14:21, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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Genre warring over Crunkcore

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Crunkcore is listed as a derivative, this is a change I made a few months ago and I am fine with it being removed but it has to be discussed. I added it as a Derivative because it is sourced, though un-legitamently in some people's eyes, as being a fusion of Screamo and Crunk. Due to it not truly being a fusion genre to Screamo I added it as a Derivative. A Derivative is NOT a subgenre or fusion genre directly, it may take elements from another genre but is a different thing entirely. For example Post-punk is a Derivative to Punk rock because it is not Punk rock and it experiments far beyond the confines of Punk and Rock more broadly into Funk, Dub, Disco, Pop, Glam, and Electronic territories all while keeping Punk influence. Dekai Averett (talk) 23:28, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd argue that, especially since the added clarification on the "definition of screamo" into the article, it makes sense to remove this term from the page. Perhaps moving it to somewhere more accurate? Also, I just looked through the sources for the page and they're clearly not reliable: 90 is the closest, being a Guardian article – that said, it refers to the genre as "screamo metal" which has quite an...interesting ring to it; 91 is mis-attrbuted to the NYT and About.com, instead it is actually a thoughtco article with no mention of crunk; both 92 & 93 are student-newspaper opinion articles (which are very poorly edited, I might add.) Methinks these are not generally accepted reliable sources, even in a scene which relies on a DIY ethos and all-ages effort. Sgnaf (talk) 06:14, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the errant citations. Also, whoever added this note is both melodramatic and seriously overstating their case: "Do not remove this mention of Crunkcore. Although disputed, it is thoroughly sourced. A comment has been added regarding the dispute, and therefore genre is not listed as a fusion in the infobox, but is only briefly mentioned here." Just because people say something is something else, does not make it that. To call those sources "thorough" is beyond questionable. Sgnaf (talk) 06:28, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sass

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Is Sass worth mentioning as a subgenre if Screamo? I believe a case can be made that it does but some of the bands listed under the genre don't fall under Screamo at all and primarily fall under other genres such as Metalcore, Post-hardcore, and Dance punk. Dekai Averett (talk) 04:47, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's always been associated the most with screamo, some sources call it a sub-genre and some others put screamo in its name> It's definitely one of the more obscure styles, but with the recent success of SeeYouSpaceCowboy a lot of media outlets have started picking it up, so I don't see how it does not constitute a mention. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:29, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have found multiple sources and correct it is tied to screamo but due to its large amount of influences and large variety of bands (some of which don't have any direct connections to screamo and are more associated with grindcore, noise rock, and dance-punk) I don't think putting it on the screamo page is correct. On that note do you think with the sources present a whole article could be created off of Sass? Some genre articles have stayed up with only a few sources and the sources present have lots of information. I think a case could be made about a single article about the genre even if its addition is fairly new.
I debated for probably over a year as to even including it on this page and only decided to go through with it because of SeeYouSpaceCowboy and their success pushing more places to write about it but I definitely don't feel like there's anywhere near enough sources for it to have its own page. SYWh is very extensive and A.V. Club is also pretty extensive, but that's just two articles, while most other places writing about it really just a cite one or two bands. I think we should probably try to expand the current section for a while and eventually it may reach the right point. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Could an infobox be made for Sass considering the vast amount of influences for it and bands that fall under it? This infobox would be similar to that of rapcore, indie electronic, and trap metal.
Go for it, it does seem appropriate because of most bands also using keyboards. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, I started a discussion about the suitability of the "stuff you will hate" citation for sass bands here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Defunct_website_as_a_source?. Also, FWIW, I don't think this section belongs here at all. Sure, it's related to screamo, but I think it's a stretch to treat it as a subgenre. Maybe it needs it's own page? Yilloslime (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are not enough sources to turn it into its own full fledged page yet I dont think. And it isnt a subgenre of screamo just some Sass bands have ties to screamo and many pages call it a subgenre. In actuallity it is more of a subgenre of hardcore punk as a whole. But I think we need more sources.User:Dekai Averett (talk 9:13, 17 Febuary 2019 (UTC)

Source reliability...

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I realize I'm somewhat new here, but please read the Wikipedia:reliable sources page. The number of spammy and unrelated websites with no notability or credibility is really disturbing. It's basically page vandalism if you ask me. I know this is a punk sub-genre so there will be zines and other DIY/amateur-created content which is absolutely reliable documentation, but most of this drivel just isn't. Sgnaf (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Deafheaven, Bosse-de-Nage

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Both bands play blackgaze (a black metal/screamo/shoegaze/post-whatever crossover), although both bands influenced by screamo. I suggest to mention that somehow. See my reverted version [1] --87.150.3.65 (talk) 16:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It could easily be include as an additional short paragraph in the Characteristics section, I just reverted because the sources didn't specifically refer to post-screamo, so there was no need to have it in post-screamo. Something that should also probably be included is the discussion as to whether those groups are screamo acts, seen in music.avclub.com/deafheaven-sunbather-1798177040 www.treblezine.com/20809-blurred-lines-evolution-of-genre/ www.decibelmagazine.com/2015/05/04/bosse-de-nage/
I actually doubt that "post-screamo" is a disctinct genre (like post-hardcore etc), the expression actually describes any derivative styles of screamo. --87.150.15.82 (talk) 14:21, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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