Talk:Eleni Foureira

Albanian-born

Foureira was undoubtedly born in Albania, so we should be telling the reader this fact right up front, in the first sentence. She is ethnically Albanian. At Eurovision 2018, three Albanians were represented, including Foureira—this was widely reported.[1] She has discussed her Albanian birth in interviews, and the media have written about how she was for a long time hiding her Albanian heritage because, as she said, "Albanians were not accepted by [Greek] society at that time."[2] Certainly it is true that when the media asks her about Albania, she emphasizes that she accepts Greece as her home. She even said she could not speak the Albanian language, only Greek,[3] which was later proved false when she sang and spoke in the Albanian language.[4] She has said she is proud of being Albanian.[5] Oculus News described her as Albanian-Greek.[6] The Express UK described her as Greek-Albanian.[7] Her biography here on Wikipedia should tell the reader about these things. Binksternet (talk) 19:15, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Rita Ora was also born in Kosovo, yet she is described as merely British in the lead. MOS:BLPLEAD clearly says not to include other birthplaces/nationalities in the lead, unless relevant to the subject's notability and that's not the case there since she isn't known for her Albanian ancestry. 62.74.0.242 19:40, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Hahaha. She is certainly known for her Albanian ancestry! Lots of media stories cover it, and it was a controversy during the 2018 Eurovision contest. Binksternet (talk) 20:06, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I compared this IP direction with 79.166.116.125 (talk · contribs) and I'm not surprised with the results. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

You are correct. Lots of Greek IPs involved in massive amounts of edit-warring. Also connected are the usernames Eurofan2000, John07234, Dealer07, LefterisA and LefterisApos. The problem is big. Binksternet (talk) 23:37, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

¨::Per wp:MOSBIO the introductory part should include information that is related with the subject's notability. Thus the introduction should be in accordance with this (Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.). Foureira's connection to Albanian music and arts is zero. As for ethnicity Foureira in various interviews has been self-declared as ethnic Greek [[8]]. As such the addition of controversial information is yet another issue and raises serious wp:BLP controversy.Alexikoua (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see where you get "zero" connection to Albania. The connection between Albania and Foureira has been described multiple times in the media. The Cambridge Language Collective wrote about how Foureira's Albanian heritage prevented her from representing Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest, an example of "Greek intolerance towards Albanian people."[9] An academic paper examines the Albanian connection to Foureira, especially how her Albanian heritage was purposely hidden by her Greek record label: "Language Mixing and Identity in Eleni Foureira's Songs". Leading up to the big Eurovision contest in 2018 where she represented Cyprus, Foureira declared publicly for the first time that she was Albanian, and she held up a flag of Albania.[10] A bunch of media stories talked about how Foureira was one of three Eurovision singers with Albanian heritage. Together with Eugent Bushpepa, Foureira made the Albanian eagle symbol with their two hands. Her success (second place finish) at Eurovision 2018 gave her new confidence to emphasize the Albanian connection. Foureira delivered a powerful message to Albanians at the end of 2019: singing in the Albanian language and making a political statement about Greece and Albanians. The statement was seen by the media as Foureira embracing her Albanian roots. Not zero! Binksternet (talk) 21:49, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The source Binksternet used (“ocnal.com”) is an Albanian nationalist blog which is unreliable and cannot be used in a wikipedia article [11] [12]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.92.135 (talk) 00:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see where you get "zero" connection to Albania.. You have to be kidding me, since not a single song of her is in Albanian. All of her discography is in Greek. Presenting a couple of wp:TABLOID isn't an argument for inclusion of controversial information about her origin in lead. Moroever, she self declared as being of Greek origin as a member of the Greek minority since she ones live in Albania. Serious wp:BLP issues can't have a place in lead without consensus.Alexikoua (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

By the way I wonder why we should be eager to selectively present urls that make her ethnic Albania, while hiding the other side of the story. Foureira has clearly self-declared that she is an ethnic Greek coming from the Greek minority in Albania and this can hardly make her ethnic Albanian especially from introduction. We are in dangerous territory by crossing the wp:BLP limits.Alexikoua (talk) 12:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

@Binksternet: I believe you offered the answer yourself since the source you presented styles her as Eleni Foureira, a Greek pop-star. So, we have no reason to change this introduction in here.Alexikoua (talk) 12:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

You are making up facts and ignoring sources. She has never stated that she was ethnically Greek, and Berlin Policy Journal said "she is not ethnically Greek. She was born in neighboring Albania as Entela Fureraj, and her parents moved to Greece when she was seven. But because of hostility toward Albanians in Greece, she claimed to be Mexican and changed her name to Fourera when she joined the Greek girl group Mystique in 2007." So many sources have discussed her Albanian heritage that it has become critically important to the biography. It doesn't matter that she has not published a song in the Albanian language. All that matters is whether sources discuss her Albanian heritage, calling attention to its importance. Binksternet (talk) 06:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

We have to follow wp:MOSBIO, so whether a couple of websites discuss her possible origin that's unrelated to her notability. For example in the case of Zach Galifianakis, though we have numerous of websites discussing his origin (or visiting Greek-American events etc.) on the other hand his notability is irrelevant to Greeks. To sum up: Galifianiakis is American under the same rational that makes Foureira Greek. But in our case Foureira's ethnicity is strongly disputed by herself, she declares [[13]][[14]]: My grandfather is Greek, I feel Greek. If I went out then and said that I am North-Epirotissa (form the Greek minority of Albania), they would judge me again.. As such labelling her straight as ethnic Albanian from lead raises strong wp:BPL issues.Alexikoua (talk) 11:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, we must follow MOS:LEADBIO which says "The lead section should summarise the life and works of the person with due weight." The many media discussions give a strong weight to her Albanian birth, so we must tell the reader she is Albanian-born, which is true and relevant. Of course, this is all from 2018 and afterward, so your quote from 2016 is about Foureira continuing to hide her origin, as she did until 2018. The media coverage of her Albanian origin is from 2018 onward, so this is new material, and newly relevant to her biography. Binksternet (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Foureira admitted in public that she was born in Albanian since 2014 and not 2018 [[15]]. So your argument that she hide her origin from 2018 is wrong. As I've said even in 2016 Foureira explained that she comes from the Greek minority in Albania. She never declared an ethnic Albanian. You understand that this falls straight in wp:BLP.Alexikoua (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Binksternet: There is also weird that you avoid to add the same kind of info in Ermal Meta's info about being Albanian-born.Alexikoua (talk) 20:23, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

No, this dispute does not come under BLP rules. There is no BLP violation in telling the reader that she was born in Albania.

Your position that she is "ethnic Greek" is wrong according to the Berlin Policy Journal which wrote that "she is not ethnically Greek". Apparently you think that one Greek grandfather destroys any claim that she is ethnically Albanian. Your stance is not upheld by sources such as Politiko.al which writes "The singer already shows out loud that she is Albanian – her origin was echoed in Eurovision a few years ago, where for the first time three Albanians competed for three different countries: Eleni, Eugent Bushpepa and Ermal Meta." The Cambridge Language Collective described her as an "Albanian-born artist", which is all I'm trying to establish here. Oiko Times wrote about Foureira's connection to Albanians: "Foureira speaks and sings in Albanian, slays with Fuego, supports Elvana and gives political statement". Anabel magazine wrote about her Albanian origin: "Eleni Foureira Sparks 'Song Festival' Scene!" The 2014 piece in Thema News, relaying her interview with Kool magazine, says she lied about her Albanian origin because her Greek label executives would never consider revealing it, a topic that is addressed more fully by the Cambridge Language Collective, explaining that Greek nationalism is very strong, discriminating harshly against Albanians, and any mention of Albanian heritage would ruin her chances at stardom. The general interest in Foureira's heritage sparked My Heritage to sponsor a DNA test which Pappas Post published: "Greek Pop Singer Eleni Foureira’s DNA Revealed During Live Telecast in Israel". The DNA test showed 68.9% Greek and South Italian, 29.8% Balkan, and 1.3% Ashkenazi Jewish. It's impossible to separate the Greek and South Italian blood in this case, so it's impossible to state with certainty that Foureira is mostly Greek.

The main point here is that there is widespread media discussion of Foureira's Albanian heritage, and she is often described in the context of being born in Albania. The media interest satisfies MOS:ETHNICITY and also supplies suitable weight for MOS:LEADBIO. Binksternet (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

It's actually the epitomy of a wp:BLP violation to claim that she is ethnic Albanian while herself declared that she is an ethnic Greek. By the way the 'Berlin journal' is just a gossip magazine not an academic journal. It it also weird that you read only Albanian published material (.al, ocnal etc.). You understand that an introduction should retain neutrality. Alexikoua (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Binksternet: for your participation, the ethnic affiliation of non-Greek artists is a delicate topic in Greece. As you summarized above, both foreign as well as Greek media have always described Foureira as "Greek-Albanian" or "Greek of Albanian origin" since 2013, though her Albanian origin has even become more important since then. There are also official statements by Foureira, declaring she is proud to be of Albanian heritage [16][17][18][19][20][21][22]. Whether we like it or not, it is totally absurd to hide the fact that she is Albanian or Albanian-born. Wikipedia is based on sources and no subjective opinions. @Alexikoua: you are not really convincing, Foureira's connection to Albanian music is not zero, she collaborated with Kosovo-Albanian singer Butrint Imeri in 2016 and is currently, yet unofficially, working with Albanian composers for her solo debut in the Albanian music industry. Cheers! Iaof2017 (talk) 12:49, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm providing a number of low level Albanian magazines in order to contradict Foureira's self declaration as an ethnic Greek is really a weak argument. This is way into deep wp:BLP territory. I know several non-Albanian artist cooperating with their Albanian colleagues that doesn't make them Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 15:51, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I do not think that interviews, where Foureira discusses her heritage, have low-level status. I never claimed that collaborating with an Albanian artist makes her more "Albanian", it was pretty much a response to your weak "argument". Iaof2017 (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Sure we are still waiting for her first Albanian song, but right now she is in 'zero'. If some few gossip magazines are interested about her supposed ethnicity that's not a serious argument for inclusion in lead. Not to mention that she self declared as Northern Epirote and ethnic Greek in several interviews.Alexikoua (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

It is a statement by this very person, she self declared her ethnicity and multiple websites confirm this one. Removing it all the way constitutes disruption not to mention wp:BLP breach.Alexikoua (talk) 21:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the words came out of her mouth. No, the words cannot be used to establish ethnicity. The words are conjecture, not a statement of fact. How many times must I say this? Binksternet (talk) 23:08, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Statement about Northern Epirus

Foureira said, "Αν έβγαινα τότε και έλεγα πως είμαι Βόρειο- Ηπειρώτισσα πάλι θα με έκριναν." In English the statement is roughly "If I went out then and said that I was from Northern Epirus, they would judge me [negatively] again."

Nothing in this statement supports an explicit origin of Northern Epirus. The comment is conjecture, a "what if" statement. She was born in Albania, not Northern Epirus in Greece. She said she has a Greek grandfather, but she did not say where he was from. No WP:SECONDARY sources exist placing her heritage in Norther Epirus. Binksternet (talk) 23:45, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

He self declared in the same statement that her grandfather is ethnic Greek and then follows that she was reluctant to declare her ethnicity (Northern Epirote). Self declaring your ethnicity is good to be in intro especially if various wp:TABLOID tend to support a different opinion. This statement is supported in several top graded wp:SECONDARY, so we should be careful and avoid disruption by removing them altogether from the entire article.Alexikoua (talk) 17:05, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

The first problem is that Northern Epirus people are ethnically Balkan, not ethnically Greek/Southern Italian. You cannot say her heritage is from Northern Epirus and then say that this same heritage is "ethnic Greek". Those people only have Greek nationality, not Greek/Southern Italian ethnicity.

The second HUGE problem is your assumption that reluctance to declare ethnicity "follows" from a vague "what if" statement naming no one. Pure conjecture.

The only WP:SECONDARY support for this question is that everybody quoted the same statement. You must have noticed that none of these sources follow up Foureira's "what if" with a more solid analysis of her supposed heritage from Northern Epirus. The Foureira quote is a primary, not a WP:SECONDARY source. Only the reporter's own analysis can be considered secondary. Binksternet (talk) 04:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

"Those people only have Greek nationality" They don't typically have Greek nationality. Northern Epirus is the section of the Epirus region that belongs to Albania. It has been an Albanian territory since 1921, minus a few months of Greek occupation during World War II. Dimadick (talk) 13:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate your better understanding. Thanks! Binksternet (talk) 16:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey Binksternet, thank you again for your efforts to improve this article as someone who is not particularly involved in Balkan-related topics. You delivered good arguments and no one couldn't refute them until now. Everything is well documented and visible in the view history for user who do not want to understand. Iaof2017 (talk) 12:12, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Albanian

She said she was born in Fier, therefore she was born with an Albanian citizenship. In an interiew, she told she went to Greece when she was 7-8 year old, and that she later obtained her Greek citizenship thanks to her grandpa (who probably could speak Aromanian). This is a thing that the Greek state do: Even members of my family were granted Greek citizenship, after they prooved they could speak Aromanian.

Conseguently, she is an Albanian, which later obtained Greek citizenship.

NOTE:

• She said that she obtained the Greek citizenship thanks to her grandpa, and not beacuse his grandpa was Greek, which is just an assumption you made. See here.

• In Fier (Patos, she said), we have plenty of Chams Albanians who came here after being expelled , so he cannot be considered an ethnic Greek.

• In Fier we have plenty of Albanian Aromanians. See here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FierakuiVërtet (talk • contribs) 01:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• The fact that the Greek state considers Aromanian Albanians as Greek citizen does not mean anything, since Aromanians do not differ genetically from their neighbour populations. (e.g Serbian Aromanians do not differ from Serbian, Albanian Aromanians do not differ from Albanians, Macedonian Aromanians do not differ from Macedonians)

ABOUT HER GRANDFATHER:

• She is an Orthodox Christian, so his grandpa could be an Aromanian.
• On the other side, in Communist Albania religion was prohibited and marriage between Muslims and Christian was encouraged, therefore its grandfather could be a Muslim Cham Albanian.

In any case, Aromanian or Cham, his granfather was not Greek.

FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Too much wp:OR: she became notable in Greece, is active in this country, is singing in Greek and self-declares as Greek. In order to be portrayed neutrally and per wp:MOSBIO "she is a Greek singer". None is interested to read at 1st line about her personal details and how she reached Greeks when she was a child. wp:BLP is quite sensitive, and please avoid wp:OR and speculations.Alexikoua (talk) 04:33, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua, stop warning against BLP violations. The difference is very small between "Albanian-born Greek" and "naturalised Greek, Albanian", with neither one misrepresenting the singer. Binksternet (talk) 05:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Its what i've been saying. Naturalised Greek, Albanian is just more precise/correct. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 05:39, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Alexikoua If you don't understand what i'm saying, it does not mean it is an original research.
• So, your saying that being born in Albania, by at least, 3 Albanian grandparents out of 4, does not mean she is an ethnic Albanian, but saying that his grandfather came from Greece, automatically imply that she is an ethnic Greek? And not a Cham for example? WP:NPOV Please.
• We understood that she is more Albanian(3/4) than Greek (even though she said only that Greece was her grandfather's home, which is what a Cham would say, for example Please FierakuiVërtet (talk) 05:47, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: @Binksternet: I didn't follow the whole discussion but I have found a source that might be interesting for this article and the origins of Eleni. In a 2019 interview/video Eleni did a MyHeritage DNA test. In this interview she stated: I am not Greek but only grew up there [Greece]. Her results came back as being 69% "Greek and South Italian" which apparently chocked her. The thing is, in MyHeritage results Albanian DNA is also grouped within the "Greek and South Italian" category, while not being specifically mentioned in the name of the category. Eleni probably thought that Albanian was synonymous with the "Balkans" category and that is why she expected more Balkan percentage but that is not the case. The article: [23], the Youtube video of MyHeritage's official account:[24]Ahmet Q. (talk) 19:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I, too, thought that the Albanian DNA would only be found in the Balkans category. Your information is interesting. Binksternet (talk) 19:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I read the article. This is it: I am not Greek but only grew up there [Greece]. She said it herself.

Yes, I've bumped into this fact: MyHeritage does not specifically mention that.

I think this should do. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

For the record, she has also made many pro-Greek statements to the press, for instance that she "feels" Greek or that she is Greek. There are contradictions in her various statements, which is why we should put more weight on WP:SECONDARY sources discussing her nationality and ethnicity. Binksternet (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, not exactly. She said: but i feel Greek, because i have the same mentality. So, she is not talking about her ethnicity, rather about a quality. Someone would argue that having the same mentality of a Greek does not make you an ethnic Greek. Others would argue: What exactly is the Greek mentality?

I am not saying she do not like Greece. I'm just saying that she had never denied his Albanian ethnicity.

Moreover, she discreditet any claims of her being an ethnic Greek with this I am not Greek but only grew up ther. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:35, 24 August 2022 (UTC)