Talk:Elastomeric respirator/Archive 1

Archive 1

DYK

@HLHJ: Good job on this article! I hope you're planning to submit it for DYK, but you'd need to submit it today-ish to meet the deadline. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 01:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@John P. Sadowski (NIOSH):, thank you! You've added a great deal to it, too. I hadn't thought of DYK, but it's a good idea. Actually we've got until Wednesday according to DYKcheck, presumably due to the way it's been growing (five-times-expanded criterion). I'd have to cite all the uncited stuff for DYK; that's six cites and the "in popular culture" section, I've just gone through and tagged. Doable. Do you see any serious problems/omissions in the article? HLHJ (talk) 02:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Overall it's good for DYK, and getting close to GA quality. There are probably some topics that could be added or expanded, I'll take a closer look tomorrow. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 04:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I've tackled some of the citation-neededs, but there are still a few. I've nominated it anyway, with you as co-author. Do you have any ideas for the hook? The topic seems visual enough to have an image; I picked one I think will be hooky, but do you see any better ones on Commons? HLHJ (talk) 05:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@HLHJ:, @John P. Sadowski (NIOSH): I've performed a DYK review, and I justed wanted to let you know there are still some citation needed templates present.

Thank you, CSJJ104. I've gotten rid of most of the citation-neededs; remaining tasks:

• a solid WP:MEDRS source on desorbtion of chemical filters. Have not found one yet.
• I'm a bit doubtful about the unidirectional-filters sentence, it was added by someone else to another article and I can't find anything on the subject. If I still haven't when the rest is sorted, I will comment it out.
• Globalizing the bit on when they must be worn. I don't think this is critical as I doubt it will vary much worldwide.
• A picture of a transparent respirator in the "communication" section would be very nice.
• asking WP:MED for a medical review before it actually goes up. I know this isn't mandatory, but I think it's wise.

I'm not sure if there is enough on air-supplying masks. It would be possible to change the article scope to "air-filtering elastomeric respirator". Opinions, and additions to the to-do list, welcome. HLHJ (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

One more note: Juan Carlos Lentijo (pictured in the second image) and other IAEA workers photographed on Commons wear full-face respirators over glasses. This contradicts the text. HLHJ (talk) 06:46, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 01:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

An elastomeric respirator as cybergoth fashion

Citation for caption

Valerie Steele (2008), Gothic: Dark Glamour, Yale University Press, pp. 49–50, Today cyber goths tend to wear primarily black clothing with hints of neon colors, as well as clothing made of reflective materials and PVC, and huge platform boots. Their hair extensions or falls often incorporate a bright color and multiple piercings are typical. Goggles are often worn. Some cyber goths also wear gas masks or (in what appears to be a kind of medical fetish) shiny PVC doctors' masks.

• ... that elastomeric respirators are used in medicine, agriculture, and fashion? Source: each individually cited, with a section on each in article (agriculture's section is split with other industries)
  • ALT1:... that elastomeric respirators have been used against everything from COVID-19 to conventionality of costume? ditto; I don't think the idea that cybergoth wear is deliberately unconventional is likely to be challenged, but I can probably source it if needed.
  • ALT2:... that elastomeric respirators are used not only to protect against COVID-19 and tear gas, but also as fashion items (pictured)?

• Reviewed: Cartography of Palestine
• Comment: Still a few uncited sentences, should be fixed tomorrow. More hook suggestions welcome.

Created/expanded by HLHJ (talk) and John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk). Nominated by HLHJ (talk) at 05:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - Citation needed templates still present
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Citation needed templates need to be addressed.

AGF on offline sources relating to fashion.

Personally not sure about ALT1. I don't question that cybergoth wear is unconventional, but I had not heard the phrase 'conventionality of costume' before, and it's meaning is not explained in the article.

Is there a reason ALT2 is the only one to say "(pictured)"? CSJJ104 (talk) 18:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, CSJJ104! I'm trying to cite the bit about chemical cartridges and industrial use; the other two will, I think, need to be commented out. Gas masks are obviously used in music as a sound effect, but it's hard to find RS that say so. I just made an error with the "(pictured)". I agree that it's an unconventional phrase. Might this ALT3 be better?:

ALT3: ... that elastomeric respirators (pictured) protect against COVID-19, but are smuggled into jurisdictions which consider them tools of political resistance?

ALT4: ... that elastomeric respirators (pictured) protect against COVID-19, but are smuggled and considered subversive?

Quackenbush, Casey (August 15, 2019). "A run on gas masks: Hong Kong protesters circumvent crackdown on protective gear". Washington Post. " Gas masks, helmets, umbrellas, goggles: For anyone in Hong Kong, this is a checklist of essential protective equipment needed to partake in or document the protests that have plunged the semiautonomous Chinese territory into political crisis. But to authorities seeking to choke off the movement, these items are "tools for attacking people."... But as protests intensify, along with Chinese government warnings of dire consequences, authorities are clamping down on the sale and importation of items they regard as resistance tools. In turn, vendors and the anti-government protesters are devising ways to circumvent equipment shortages and keep the front lines supplied. "Nowadays, we work like smugglers," Peter said. "We have to hide from the government." Gas masks have become especially coveted in the Asian financial hub, where demonstrators have faced off with police in violent clashes. Police have fired more than 1,800 rounds of tear gas since early June....Chinese restrictions on protective equipment could technically violate World Trade Organization rules, said Bryan Mercurio, a professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong's law school and an expert in international trade law. But under the national security provision in WTO rules, he said, it's "likely that China would call this an essential security measure...

"Elastomeric Respirators: Strategies During Conventional and Surge Demand Situations". U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 11 February 2020.

I have also added a cite in image caption, on faith from Cybergoth article; obviously this cite should not be posted on the front page.

I think the contrast is hooky; I have added corresponding content to the article. The phrasing could probably be tightened, suggestions welcome. HLHJ (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I quite like ALT2, and it seems to fit well with the picture. For me ALT3 implies they are being smuggled to be used against COVID-19, which is not the case, or what the article says. Possibly "... but are resticted by jurisdictions which consider them tools of political resistance?" or similar is clearer? ALT4 might have a similar issue with implying why they are smuggled, but could this also perhaps clarify who considers them subversive? In both cases, the Wall Street Journal is behind a paywall so I am assuming good faith.CSJJ104 (talk) 21:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I think in retrospect wikilinking "tear gas" would have been a good idea in ALT2. I've seen a fair number of hooks that are misleading if technically true. I once suggested ~"... that as the Salton Sea retreats, the gryphons are multiplying?", which was used despite giving a vivid false impression. I'd agree that ALT4 especially is confusing at best. What do you think would be hookiest? HLHJ (talk) 05:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I've wikilinked tear gas in ALT2, and put a strikethrough ALT1, as I think we both agreed the wording there was bad. As it stands ALT3 seems the hookiest to me.CSJJ104 (talk) 17:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I like ALT2 the most (though I suggested it) as I think it's the most surprising, and the photo is eye-catching. You don't have to decide yourself, you can approve both hooks and let the promoter decide. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

No harm in expressing a preference, but yes, I intend to approve them and let the promoter make the decision. Please let me know when the outstanding issues have been resolved.CSJJ104 (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@CSJJ104: The sourcing issues have been dealt with. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Approving ALT0, ALT2, ALT3, and ALT4. Did fix date parameter in one citation during review. CSJJ104 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yoninah let me know that articles with clarification tags can't be promoted. SL93 (talk) 19:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I was also planning to promote ALT2, but there are still "clarification needed" tags on the page. Also, the image is very dark at thumbnail size. The only clear image is the cop with the pink filters. Yoninah (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @John P. Sadowski (NIOSH): and @HLHJ: in case they haven't seen this. The clarification needed templates have been added since my review, hence why it was not an issue at the time. As for the image, @Yoninah: is there a specific issue you have with this? Possibly a little subjective, but I personally felt it was still clear at 120x133px.CSJJ104 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

The image is really dark. Every time I look at it, I see black; only if I lift my eyes I see some red at the top. Yoninah (talk) 22:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah, CSJJ104, and HLHJ: I have resolved the clarification issues. The photo looks fine to me; maybe it's a monitor or an accessibility issue? John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 00:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

An elastomeric respirator as cybergoth fashion

Citation for caption

Valerie Steele (2008), Gothic: Dark Glamour, Yale University Press, pp. 49–50, Today cyber goths tend to wear primarily black clothing with hints of neon colors, as well as clothing made of reflective materials and PVC, and huge platform boots. Their hair extensions or falls often incorporate a bright color and multiple piercings are typical. Goggles are often worn. Some cyber goths also wear gas masks or (in what appears to be a kind of medical fetish) shiny PVC doctors' masks.

Easy enough to fix. Here is a brighter version. HLHJ (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you both. Moving brighter image to top of template as well, and restoring tick per CSJJ104's review. Yoninah (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I had been letting this DYK hang because of an ongoing discussion which may affect the existence of the article. However, meanwhile, others have done substantial work on the article, drastically improving it. I'd like a bit of time to go over the changes, polish the English, and add some more images (some of which I have, some of which I'll have to source) to illustrate the new text. As this is currently in prep space 7, I suspect that this will not be an issue, and I won't make any changes that would disqualify the article (like adding tags), but I felt a note of explanation here would not be out of place. HLHJ (talk) 13:41, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Main-article links

John P. Sadowski (NIOSH), I notice you've removed some of the main-article link templates, like:

Main article: Respirator cartridge

Apologies if this is just Visual Editor doing strange things, but do you think the main-article links are undesirable? HLHJ (talk) 02:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In that case it wasn't the right target for a main article hatnote. Respirator cartridge is just about chemical cartridges whereas the section is about all types of filters. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, that is a deficiency. What does one call a particulate filter refill for a respirator? Is there a general term for filters, cartridges, and canisters? We should have content on all of them, somewhere. I can't even find a suitably-licensed photo of the pancake-style filters disconnected from the respirator body. Nor a photo of a respirator with a window or a diaphragm, though a solid trawl through Commons may turn up one I can crop. I'll have a look soon.

What about the gas mask article, which is exclusively about conflict use? Would you feel it was suitable for the see-also section? HLHJ (talk) 04:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Mechanical filters are covered at Mechanical filter respirator; I don't think we need a separate article on "removable" mechanical filters. Or maybe it could be renamed to Mechanical filter (respirator). I think gas mask is an interesting case. The name specifies a toxin rather than a filtration method or physical form, and the article talks almost exclusively about devices prior to the end of WWII. (The modern name would be CBRN respirator, which apparently are predominantly powered air-purifying respirators today.) It's not a synonym for elastomeric respirator, since older gas masks appear to have been made out of a variety of materials including rubber or heavy fabric. I think it's a good see-also item. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 01:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

That sounds like an excellent idea: "Mechanical filter (respirator)" and "Chemical filter (respirator)". It makes the ontology much easier. But then there is HEPA filter: it too is a mechanical air filter, essentially the same mechanisms as far as I can tell. And there's air filter and air purifier. I tried a bit to organize at Breathing mask, and frankly the ontology of the articles is a bit of a mess, second only to Commons, where "vaguely respirator-like" seems to be about all that's reliably categorized. I know you're likely most familiar with US terminology, and I wonder if different countries have different regulation-based categories.

I've been looking through things like the CDC video in the article, and the NIOSH seems to have a lot of good stock photos used in assorted publications. If you know anyone who has a folder full of those, they could be quite useful on Commons. The one showing two masks with the filters dismantled to show a P100 in one and I think and N95 in the other, for instance.

I went through 50-odd links, and the "Gas mask" article seems to be linked to in the meanings:

1. WWII wargas masks
2. WWI wargas masks
3. similar civilian-worn masks in other conflicts
4. modern military CBRN masks
5. elastomeric respirators

I suspect that a split and disambig would be the right solution here, but a difficult one.

The plant-nursery gas mask in the photo seems to be made of leather. I'm not sure if oilcloth would count as an elastomer.

Would you happen to know of a good source for the construction & chemical industry para, or the bit on chemical cartridges? If not I'll try to dig one up. I think the other citation-neededs are on sentences that can be commented out for the DYK. HLHJ (talk) 18:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I've cited some of the industry stuff. Do you know if this image[1] is public-domain or Queen's copyright in Canada, John P. Sadowski (NIOSH)? HLHJ (talk) 22:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure about that image; it's a Canadian government work. Almost anything by NIOSH is a public domain U.S. government work and you can upload it, unless it says its a stock photo or is from another source.

It seems that the WP:COMMONNAMEs are "mechanical filter" and "chemical cartridge". The word "filter" seems to be use with chemical cartridges only informally, and the work "cartridge" is never used with respirator mechanical filters. (If you search for "mechanical filter cartridge", you will only get results for aquarium filters.) The mechanical filter article needs a parenthetical disambiguation because Mechanical filter also refers to an electronic component. The chemical cartridge article doesn't need a disambiguation because the term isn't used any other way on Wikipedia. It seems to have a minor secondary meaning relevant to chemical databases but that can be dealt with in a hat-note. I can make these changes now.

For gas mask, I'd be hesitant about a large-scale reorganization. I think "gas mask" can be defined as a mask with a chemical cartridge filter, but it describes the entire mask and not just the filter. This is important because due to its history it was made out of different materials prior to the immediate post-WWII era than the ones used today. Elastomers would only have been commercially available after WWII. I think it should be preserved largely as-is, with a section at the end pointing to articles that describe the modern equivalents of the gas mask. John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 04:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I like the idea of making "gas mask" a historical article, with links to later developments, though there are a bunch of other things want to do first. I had already redirected some "WWII gas mask" links to subsections in the gasmask article, those for specifically WWII (or WWI as appropriate) masks. Given the variety of things that people link to "gas mask" from, renaming "gas mask" and making it a disambig page might encourage editors to decide which sense they mean, meaning fewer inappropriate links in the future, and more appropriate links here. One other possibility is to rename this article "Reusable air-purifying respirator"[2]. WW gas masks were that. I'm not sure I favour that, as FFRs look set to become reusable if certain tech advances pan out.

Pity about the lack of parallelism in the names, but that is mostly what I've seen, at least in the US sources.

Hmm. Those images might possibly be a copyvio problem; we have a lot of CDC content under public domain on Commons, and if no-one got permission to release the stock images and used-with-permission images as PD, the PD does not apply to the inline-credited images, so we'd technically have to remove them, black them out or some such. I doubt the Canadian government is going to sue Wikipedia, and it would be a lot of work, but I think that would be the legal requirement. Of course, if the stock images came off Commons it would not be a problem . HLHJ (talk) 06:42, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Images

• 
  Firefighters? Unusual use
• 
  shows seals well; lede image?
• 
  ditto. The shiny metal shields a membrane for transmitting sounds. The item under the chin is an exhalation valve.
• 
  Police wearing mask showing side view
• 
  Firefighting SCBA?
• 
  2- and 1- filter respirators, Haiti. See also constituent images
• 
  Why military masks have small windows, I think
• 
  simple image
• 
• 
• 
  Possible lede image?
• 
  Possible lede image?
• 
  clear image apart from hair
• 
  Pleated filters bent into a curve
• 
  Mould
• 
  orinasal
• 
  Aircraft maintainence
• 
  Eyeglasses
• 
  Military seal check
• 
  closeup

Notes for future use. Donning, head cradle first, strap adjustment.[3] HLHJ (talk) 06:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

References