Talk:Edmund Crouchback

Untitled

Burkes peerage (http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/common/sitepages/roking04.asp) recommends 1278 as birthdate for Thomas

The correct name of the kingdom is simply the Kingdom of Sicily, Apulia was already part of the kingdom, since it included the whole of southern Italy right up to the papal states. Why is Apulia mentioned separately? Why not also mention separately Calabria, Capua, Naples and other bits of the mainland part of the kingdom? ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 05:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hunchback?

I've removed Category:Hunchbacks from this article. I'm not a scholar of history myself, but since the article didn't mention anything about Edmund's having a hunchback, I went looking for support on Google. Apparently the story of Edmund's deformity was current in the 16th or 17th century, and at that time the epithet "crouchback" was interpreted to mean "hunchback". However, there seems to be no preponderance of evidence one way or the other as to whether the story was told because it was true, or put about falsely because of some kind of intrigue involving John of Gaunt and line of descent.[1][2] (Personally, I like the crouch="cross" derivation, because it's more interesting.) I wish someone with more knowledge in the field would expand this article. --Quuxplusone 08:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Name

Why was he given an Anglo-Saxon name? He seems to be the first English royal or noble named Edmund since 1066.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 22:03, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

He was named after St Edmund the Martyr, the patron saint of England at the time. 2A00:23C6:4182:9500:4DAD:6534:8A7B:1314 (talk) 21:46, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

His father, Henry III, had an enthusiasm for Edward the Confessor and named his first son Edward. Hence Edward the First. I suppose he then went on to name the second son Edmund to keep him companyDean1954 (talk) 19:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Doing a brief Google search, there's reference to it here but I couldn't find anything concrete (though I honestly wouldn't know where to start looking). However it seems more than likely this is the case. It is known that Henry venerated the English saints and that his eldest son Edward was named after the Confessor, so it makes sense that the unusually 'English' name of his second son can be explained by him naming him after Edmund the Martyr, who was a patron saint of England during this period. 2A00:23C6:4182:9500:4987:D325:88F9:445E (talk) 15:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Bishop of Romania

I will have to check further when I get a chance, but if I remember correctly, the "Bishop of Romania" should be Gregory of Romagna, who wasn't a bishop or a cardinal, but was a papal diplomat in the 1240s and 1250s. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:33, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Arms

According to James Parker (see A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry), Edmund (or 'Edmond') Crouchback had an unusual variant of the "three lions" arms in which the three lions shared a head, called "tricorporated". It would be interesting if a historical source (as opposed to a modern heraldic one) could attest to this. Hairy Dude (talk) 05:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Renovation of Edmund Crouchback article completed

Tagging users of the English royalty project: @Robertus Pius, @EmilySarah99, @Unlimitedlead, @DDMS123

Hello! I'm not familiar with editing historical articles so this was my first one, in which the article only had a mediocre-sourced Life section and a Family section. I am very interested in Edmund Crouchback, in which I thought it was pretty cool to see a prince who would become King but couldn't, became widowed and married a widowed queen, fulfilled all the prerequisites of an ideal knight, and lived in a time where England and France were close through familial ties. I thought such traits should warrant a better article for Edmund so I decided to invest my time in improving the article the past week.

I am tagging you guys for advice and copy-edits to assist the article. Right now, I have some stuff that I wanted to add into the article later, such as minor details of Edmund's life and Edmund's harshness against the Earl of Derby. If everything goes well, do you think this article can be nominated for Good Article?

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 18:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sinoam - Yes, if all goes well, it could eventually be nominated to be a good article. We just need to make sure that all of the references are reliable and that it is very well-written.

Here are the links to the criteria for different article classes including good article class:

- Article Classes

- Good Article Criteria

DDMS123 (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @DDMS123:

I'm familiar with the criteria, as I have previously made three Wikipedia articles Good Articles. However, this is my first article in regards to English royalty, so I am asking of users who are more experienced than I am to see if the Edmund Crouchback article right now holds up.

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 19:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Sinoam,

Yes, I think the article holds up right now. DDMS123 (talk) 19:28, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @DDMS123!

I hope the read was informative and enjoyable.

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 19:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

If this is your first time nominating an article about English royalty, I suggest consulting the ODNB. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Unlimitedlead,

I presume the ODNB as the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography? What do you mean by consulting the dictionary. I'll also let you know that I am not a British citizen, so I do not have access to the Dictionary.

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 20:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I've had a quick read and think a few improvements could be made. Mainly the lead sections is typically no longer than a paragraph, much of that can be cut down since it is talked about later in the article. Other than cleaning up some of the writing and style, I don't see any other issues. EmilySarah99 (talk) 02:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @EmilySarah99,

I would disagree with that the lead section is typically no longer than a paragraph because we see the lead of many featured articles, especially Edmund's father King Henry III of England and Edmund's brother Edward I of England, their leads are around 3-4 major paragraphs. The lead summarizes what is going to be talked about later in the article. However, I will try to do some clean-up in the writing and style.

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 03:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Reference

Can someone please check reference 114 which is to Carpenter (2003). I suspect that this should be 2004 which is the only Carpenter citation given. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, there are two books by Carpenter that have the same title but different publisher and publishing year.

- Published by Oxford in 2003: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Struggle_for_Mastery/FLbdk_L9TYQC?hl=en&gbpv=0

- Published by Penguin in 2004: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Penguin_History_of_Britain_The_Strug/WMiL1KUkkzwC?hl=en&gbpv=0

I am not too sure if they are not the same books, because I copy and pasted the citations and the contents they cited from the Edward I of England article (which uses the 2004 version) and the Conquest of Wales by Edward I (which uses the 2003 version).

祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 14:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I also added the 2003 citation in the bibliography, but feel free to merge both of them if it is redudant. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 14:13, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't have either which is why I couldn't clear the error. They're probably the same, Penguin editions are paperback, perhaps the 2003 was the hardback version? In any case, the page numbers need checking between different editions. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:47, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Edmund Crouchback/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Garnet-Septagon (talk · contribs) 10:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to take this one on. Considering its size and complexity, it might be a slower process than other good article reviews, but I'll try to do it justice,

Quick fail criteria

Y Not far from meeting any of the main criteria
Y No copyright violations
Y No cleanup banners
Y Stable
Y No previous GA nominations

Reference spot checks

Spotchecks are a GA requirement; I'll pick a few citations and check to see that the source correctly supports the citation.

I've added some OpenLibrary links to the reference list to make my life a bit easier. Some works only have a different edition or printing available via OL: if there is an issue with one of these supporting the article, I'll make it clear that I've checked against a different version and ask for a quotation.

For this section I'm going to use the revision as of 11:19, 12 August 2023.

I've done these alphabetically by author surname, which is why they're not in numerical order.

Y FN 67a
Y 67b
N 1a: His birthday is not mentioned
N 1b and 116e: It's not clear if this date is the wedding or the date he renounced the title, but neither is supported by either source.
Y 148
? 113 and 111b: 111b supports that it was a detachment of Edmund's forces that surprised Llywelyn, but not that he was "lured into a trap" or the name of the battle. For 113, I'm using the 1992 edition; could I have a quotation that supports this clause?
N 125: Source says exactly the opposite of this, that it was already established and he gave gifts to support it afterwards
Y 83
N 85: Not supported at all by source
Y 61
N 119 and 120: 119 is fine but the page range for 120 is too broad for a citation covering a single sentence with only a few details.
N 121a and 122: 121a doesn't support anything, 122 gives date of death but not that it led to Edmund inheriting Ponthieu
Y 123a
N 123b: Source says *probably* from France
N 124: Not supported at all by source

At this point over half of these are failing; I'm not going to comb through any more of the >200 citations for now. This article needs some thorough work to ensure that the sources directly support its assertions: please consider WP:TSI. There are also many sentences with multiple citations; where possible, any that are unnecessary should be removed.

I'm going to fail this GA nomination as this is a very large amount of work. The article can be resubmitted again once it has been looked at.

Other notes

There are also several grammar issues that I was going to come on to; mostly instances of using the present tense when things should be in the past tense (especially in "Crisis with France" section). Notes below: they're rough because I wrote them as I was reading, for myself, expecting to clean them up when we got onto the proper GA criteria review.

I would also have suggested trimming the lead section, as it is quite long. Ensure that every clause is directly related to Edmund's notability, relying on blue-links to other pages for background details.

Multiple people are linked several times, which is unnecessary: MOS:REPEATLINK. We also don't need to be reminded every time that Henry III was his father or Edward his brother.

Rough notes from reading through

"The "Sicilian business" outraged the barons led by the Earl of Leicester and Edmund's uncle, Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester, and was cited as one of the reasons to limit Henry's power." Reads confusingly: they're the same person right?

"and became Earl of Lancaster..." -> "becoming Earl..."

"Following the death of his first wife, Aveline de Forz, Edmund's aunt and Dowager Queen of France, Margaret of Provence, arranged his second marriage to Blanche of Artois, the recently widowed Queen Dowager of Navarre and the Countess of Champagne.": too twisty, -> "first wife, Aveline de Forz, Edmund's aunt Margaret of Provence arranged..."? Otherwise the start sounds like he married his own aunt.

"With his second wife Blanche, Edmund" -> "With Blanche"

"When Edmund's stepson-in-law, King Philip IV of France, demanded Edward, who was also his vassal through his lands of Gascony, to come to Paris to answer charges of damages caused by English mariners in 1293, Edward sent Edmund to mediate the crisis to avert war." - trim

". Edmund and Edward then renounced their homages to Philip and prepared for war against France. Edmund sailed for Gascony with his army and besieged the city of Bordeaux. Unable to pay his troops, Edmund's army deserted him, and Edmund retreated to Bayonne, where he died from illness in 1296. Edmund's body was brought back to England, where he was buried in Westminster Abbey in 1301." - too many "Edmund"s

=====================

EARLY YEARS "whom" -> "who" or "to whom Henry prayed"

"provide a great base" - more formal "to cover expenses and debts up to a total of £135,000, for which the papacy would provide assistance in funding" - don't understand this, debts to whom? If they're to the papacy then why are they providing assistance?

"granduncle" -> "grand-uncle" I think?

"investiture in Sicily, where his father" -> "in which his father"

"granted a reward to one of his Italian followers" - quite vague, what's the significance of this?

" he proposed marriage to Plaisance of Antioch, the queen of Cyprus and Lady of Beirut" - what happened with this?

"and faced military pressure from the Holy Roman Empire" - did they have a claimant?

Heading "Second Barons' War" needs a main article link

"against Edmund's father, King Henry III of England" - no need for another link to Henry, and rm "Edmund's father" No need for another link to Edward either or Simon de Montfort

" where disputes would be resolved by Edmund's uncles" - not really relevant that they're his uncles here

========================

EARL:

"As a political refugee, he harboured a desire for revenge against the barons" - he's no longer a refugee so this should be reworded

" since the time of Stephen, King of England" -> "since the time of King Stephen"

" seen as an unreliable and violent ally to the barons, as he failed to appear promptly at the Battle of Lewes.[42][43] Moreover, Robert had engaged in indiscriminate raids on the lands belonging to his rival and Edmund's brother, Edward" - refactor as "unreliable and violent" should be supported in the same sentence for readability

"As a result, Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester, imprisoned him" - as a result of what? His behaviour or Edmund acquiring his estates?

"was captured following his defeat at the Battle of Chesterfield on 15 May of that year." - not clear what year we're in

"Edmund compelled Robert to agree that he would regain his estates upon payment of an exceedingly hefty sum, fully aware that Robert would be unable to afford such a penalty." - not clear who 'he' and 'his' are

" When Edward ascended to the throne, he granted" - "after ascending to the throne", it didn't happen straight away

"alongside his father, King Henry III of England, and his brother, Edward" - don't need another link to Henry, not clear who "his" is but just Edward should be fine by now

" peace between the king " - capitalise King

"demesne" - move link to first instance, and it's a noun so "demesne lands" is incorrect

" The conclusion of the Second Barons' War " - new paragraph

"and even upon becoming king" - new sentence

"Principality that bears its namesake" - just say "Principality of Antioch"

" borrow a loan" - "take a loan" or "borrow money"

rm link for "organizing a large crusader force"

"King Henry III of England, Edmund's father, arranged a marriage" - rm link, no need for "Edmund's father"

" arranged a marriage" implies that it went ahead, would reword

" Edmund's mother, Eleanor of Provence" - rm link

"On 8 or 9 April 1269, Edmund married Aveline, who was fourteen years his junior, in Westminster Abbey.[53][65] As Aveline was only ten years old at the time,[66] the marriage could not be consummated until she turned fourteen.[67]" - reword

"prepared for the crusade, although they also participated in carrying the remains of Edward the Confessor to Westminster Abbey following the partial completion of the church's reconstruction by Henry on 13 October 1269" - you can prepare while doing that, reword

" on that year" - "in that year"

" Robert de Ferrers, 6th Earl of Derby, was unable to fulfill his obligations" - remind us why. 'fulfil' British spelling

"Unfortunately, the crusaders' plans failed when an epidemic broke out in their camp" - rm unfortunately, epidemic of what (do we know?) Where was this?

"However, Edmund's crusade proved futile" - HAD proved futile

"died back in 16 November 1272" - informal

"of which Edmund is his cousin" - reword

"Edmund and Blanche have also heard" -> HAD also heard

"became mutually attracted to each other" - redundant

"believing the English to still be hostile to France" - split inf

"gave birth to their son Thomas, becoming heir " -> "who became heir"

" The next year, Edward appointed Edmund to be Ambassador to France" - new paragraph

"should return to the English crown" -> "should have returned"

"the leaders of the mob fled and the gates open to them" - missing "left"

"of which his son Henry of Grosmont would eventually" -> "whose own son Henry"

"As Joan approaches the age of eleven" -> "approached"

"Edmund debated with his cousin" - Edmund argued that

" This would allow him to attain management and revenue" - "continue receiving revenue"

"For three months, Edmund would query on Joan's age of majority until Philip III gave a definite assertion and he finally yielded." - don't understand this sentence

"via a treaty that allows her to keep" - "allowed"

" until Edward's son Edward of Caernarfon becomes of age" - "came of age"

=========================

LAST YEARS

"and to pay for damages or he will confiscate" - "he would confiscate"

"The English was able to make a secret agreement with Philip" - "English were able"

" in exchange of Edward's citation being withdrawn, Edward will marry Philip's half-sister Margaret and France will occupy Gascony for forty days. To arrange the marriage, Edward will come under safe-conduct to Amiens in the week before or after Easter of 1294 once the forty days of occupation is over. Edmund, satisfied with the agreement, ordered John St John, the Lieutenant of Gascony, to hand Gascony over to the French,[131] but not before receiving a personal assurance from Philip that he will honor his agreement in front of an audience including the English envoys, Blanche, and Duke Robert II of Burgundy.[133] After hearing rumours of French betrayal and that Margaret will not accept him as a husband, Edward decided not to visit France, much to Philip's anger.[134] When the forty days expired, Edmund and the English envoys asked that Gascony be returned to Edward and the citation be withdrawn.[131][134] Philip reassured them that they should not be alarmed when he gives a negative answer in public since Philip did not want to refuse some of his council members who are opposed to restoring Gascony back to English control.[134][135] The English asked if they could attend the council meeting but they were refused, and they waited anxiously for Philip's response.[134] Once the meeting was completed, the bishops of Orléans and Tournai told the English envoys that France will keep Gascony from Edward and Philip's mind will not change.[134] Finally, in 21 April, in a parlement session overseen by Philip, Edward was cited again to appear in Paris with no safe-conducted granted nor a delay allowed, fooling Edmund, Blanche and Edward.[130][136] Historian Michael Prestwich believes that the French queens were likely acting in good faith in representing Edmund's interests, but they and Edmund underestimate their influence on Philip.[130]" - tense, wording

"On 1 July 1294, Edward wrote to his administrators in Gascony, apologizing of the secret treaty and will send Edmund and the Earl of Lincoln Henry de Lacy to reclaim Gascony and on 3 September ordered the Cinque Ports to provide shipping for Edmund's voyage" - tense

" attempted to surprise-attack the English encampment" - "attempted a surprise attack on"

"Hearing his brother-in-law Robert II, Count of Artois, in command of a French army was at Langon, Edmund and his army left Bordeaux to meet him." - grammar

"Realizing his funds are low, Edmund returned to Bordeaux to siege the city." - tense, "beseige"

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GOCE copy edit

Some feedback:

• Pay attention to verbs with objects ("managed to break") that can be changed to verbs without ("broke").
• Change {{see also}} to {{main}}?
• Left some cleanup tags throughout.

voorts (talk/contributions) 20:40, 16 September 2023 (UTC)