Talk:Edgar de Wahl

Review process

@Caro de Segeda and Amitchell125: Having written the original article in Estonian Wikipedia I am happy to see it translated here. Many thanks for that work and for developing it further!

Since a prospective good article should be of high quality, I have to mention that I have noticed several minor factual errors and inaccuracies I would like to correct. However, I am not sure whether it is okay to do so myself during the review process or would that only cause confusion. Let me know what you think, I could also list my comments here in the talk page one by one if needed although it would be more time consuming.

There could be some issues that require discussion but most of the things that caught my eye are really minor errors that would be easier for me to fix myself. Lixive (talk) 15:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@Lixive, Caro de Segeda, and Frzzl: Hi Lixive, Thanks for your offer, I wouldn't mind myself if you went ahead and changed the article directly, so that the minor factual errors and inaccuracies are quickly removed. Perhaps the issues that require discussion could be added to this talk page in a separate section? Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 06:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I am fine as well, please feel free to change the minor errors and comment anything requiring discussion here. Caro de Segeda (talk) 07:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Great, thanks, I will start then and if I notice any bigger issue I will comment here on the talk page. Lixive (talk) 13:59, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Some comments

@Amitchell125, Caro de Segeda, and Frzzl:So, I started with my corrections and will add here a few thoughts before I finish for today:

First, I don't know what the standard is in English wikipedia regarding blockquotes from texts originally published in some other language but it seems to me that for most readers, quotes in original languange in the main text might be redundant. I don't say they should be deleted but for those who are interested in comparing the original and translation, the original in the footnote may be fairly sufficient. Is there any kind of general consensus in this question or what do you think about it?

Second, I would recommend to completely rewrite the introduction according to the main text as there are currently several inconsistencies between these two. I can do it myself at some point but my writings need serious copyediting so I hope you are ready for it in case I get "graphomania" :)

Third, I suppose that it is not necessary to cite the journalist Pekka Erelt regarding the claim that the "western" in the name of Occidental slowed down its expansion in Eastern Europe. Perhaps there are better sources that argue the same? Maybe User:Mithridates knows some? I mean, if it is only a statement by one journalist who is not an expert on constructed languages then maybe it is something that should not be in English Wikipedia while in Estonian Wikipedia it made more sense back then when I initially wrote it.

That's all for now, I will continue in the coming days. Lixive (talk) 19:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Can't comment on blockquote usage, but I'm (partly) responsible for the introduction (rewrote/copyedited it fairly heavily). I think it would be better if you rewrote the intro, and I can copyedit from there. Frzzl (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I asked for the dual language quotes, but only to highlight that the text was incorrectly translated into English. The original language text can go again if there is a consensus on the quality of the translation. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Okay, I understand that one problematic translation regards Veiderma's quote. With my limited knowledge I can say that instead of "glass" would be perhaps better "glassware" because some kind of glass vessels for lab use are meant here. The word "messy" seems fine in this context but I would say "pretty messy" rather than "very messy" because the word "pretty" has exactly the same double meaning in English as the word "kaunis" in Estonian. Lixive (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

An update, I discovered that the English version of the article by Lumiste and Võhandu contains a translation of the same quote (p. 67). I personally don't like this translation but it's published and not too bad so perhaps it is more appropriate to use this one with reference to both the original and the translation. Lixive (talk) 17:19, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

From what I remember of the post-war Cosmoglotta there is some mention of the Occidentalists in Czechoslovakia having an issue with the name. Here is one blurb (bottom of page) mentioning them using the name Interlingue before the official name change:

https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno-plus?aid=e0m&datum=1948&page=38&size=45

I can't find the issue suggesting they use Interlingue but I do remember reading it.

That said, this was also the period where Ric Berger began hyping up the idea of changing the language so it's tough to say whether it was an actual issue or not. Knowing Berger, it is just as likely that he began amplifying nonexistent issues in order to set the grounds for a name change.

Mithridates (talk) 23:52, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I do believe having the original quote in the main article is redundant, but I don't know the policies here so whatever is decided I go with it.

Regarding the change of name, I had the same idea as Mithridates: it was changed due to the issues that Occidentalists were having in Czechoslovakia. Caro de Segeda (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mithridates and Caro de Segeda: I think that this is something that can be a useful addition. Perhaps it is possible to rewrite this passage to highlight the role of Berger and Occidentalists in Czechoslovakia so that an opinion of an unexpert journalist is not that dominating anymore. I now looked at History of Interlingue article, maybe it would make sense to briefly summarize what is written there about this and then move on with something like "Later, the Estonian journalist Pekka Erelt has interpreted these discussions as concerns that ...". Lixive (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I think this quote from Ric Berger that appears in Cosmoglotta 289 sums up the situation pretty well - a combination of difficulties in Eastern Europe and Berger's own wishes.

http://cosmoglotta.narod.ru/Cg289/cg289.htm#3

Translation: As the vice-president of the Occidental Union and editor of Cosmoglotta, I received reports from lands under Russian influence establishing the danger of using this name due to the political situation. Our correspondents recomended that we do away with this title in the printed materials we sent them, as it made PR impossible in half of Europe. Reading the article in Le Figaro (note: not sure which article he's talking about) gave me the idea to propose the name matching [Interlingua] for Occidental: INTERLINGUE, because in Occidental we say lingue and not lingua. Because I hoped that we could join the language with Interlingua, this new name should have eased the transition for our members, thereby avoiding a new radical name change in the view of the public. I thus proposed in Cosmoglotta in February 1948 to replace the name Occidental with Interlingue despite the opposition of the president of the Academy. After a year of discussions in the circulars of the Union, my proposition was finally adopted.

(I could probably ask Mr. Plavec the editor of Cosmoglotta to send a pdf of that issue if that website is seen as sketchy. The content is indeed Cosmoglotta though)

Mithridates (talk) 23:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mithridates: I wrote something based on this fragment. You can correct it if I misunderstood the details and I think you know better than me how to cite the source. It would be great if it is possible to cite the exact page number of that Cosmoglotta issue but if it is difficult to get the pdf, I think it is okay to refer to what is present. Lixive (talk) 15:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's the gist of it though I would phrase it more like "reports from the Eastern Bloc that the name Occidental was a hindrance to promoting the language and potentially a risk. At the same time the IALA was getting closer to publishing its language Interlingua that Berger had by then become fond of, and he began envisioning a possible fusion between the two languages. These two factors convinced Ric Berger to begin advocating the new name Interlingue in February 1948. The change in name took effect in October of the following year."

(I can just stick that in if you like the phrasing or feel free to make it sound better)

I can ask for the pdf with the interview but will probably take some time so I think go with the current link. In the meantime here are two more sources:

Source for Berger becoming fond of Interlingua: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Interlingue#cite_note-:8-85

And the name change announcement in October 1949: https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno-plus?aid=e0g&datum=1949&page=113&size=45

Mithridates (talk) 16:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I think your wording is indeed better and you can go on with it. Hopefully others don't think that this is a too long off-topic passage for a biography. And if you will add it to the article, can you also add these two sources you mentioned here and then we can just wait for the pdf? Lixive (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Done! I added each source including the one on that website but have emailed the editors of Cosmoglotta to see if they have a hard copy on hand to photograph and send to me. They tend to take their time though. If the existing source is an issue it can just be removed as the section stands well without it. Mithridates (talk) 03:47, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

That's great, thanks! Lixive (talk) 13:03, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Estonian language creator Edgar de Wahl escaped deportation from the NKVD by being placed in a psychiatric hospital? Source: Mäeorg, Kalmer; Rahi-Tamm, Aigi (2016). "Edgar von Wahl 1867–1948: keelemees ja poliitiline prohvet" [Edgar von Wahl 1867-1948: Linguist and Political Prophet]. Ajalooline Ajakiri (in Estonian) (2): 308.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Joey Santore

Created by Frzzl (talk). Self-nominated at 11:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Edgar de Wahl; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: A very well written and researched article about this subject's fascinating life and work, which is new to me. Earwig detects no problems. QPQ done. Hook is interesting. All set! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

@Frzzl, CurryTime7-24, and Bruxton: I have boldly changed the hook to say "by the NKVD" rather than "from the NKVD" to improve the grammar. TSventon (talk) 01:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Frzzl (talk) 06:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC) Frzzl (talk) 06:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

a question

this sentence in 'Childhood and youth' The Wahl family had moved to Ukraine after his, a railway engineer

something obviously missing there, should it be 'his father, a railway engineer' Potholehotline (talk) 02:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

'make' weapons

in 'Life in independent Estonia a quote reads

"Among those who wanted to make weapons, I only remember one: my physics teacher, von Wahl."

is this a mistake in translation, one would think he wanted to bear a weapon, not fabricate one Potholehotline (talk) 03:04, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah yeah, thanks for pointing out the issue! Frzzl (talk) 08:59, 17 May 2023 (UTC)