Talk:Devon

Simon Todd?

Who is Simon Todd? 'Devon's second most famous son' but he has no Wikipedia article and is not listed under 'Devonians' in this article. I will remove this. Mdrb55 (talk) 21:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

That correction of a "typo" has now been removed. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Pre-Devonian rocks?

It is mentioned in the Geology section presently that there are the ' remains of pre-Devonian rocks on the south coast'. What does that mean exactly (my italics)? So far as I can tell from modern literature and maps there are no pre-Devonian rocks in the area - though happy if it can be shown (and referenced) otherwise. Geopersona (talk) 13:17, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

British Regional Geology (1985 ed.), Chapter 2 "Pre-Devonian Rocks" states on p.15: "The only known Ordovician and Silurian sediments of south-west England are exotic blocks of quartzite and limestone enclosed within Devonian strata...", but on p. 20 it notes that these are found in the Veryan Series in Cornwall. However under the sub-heading "Pre-Cambrian? Rocks of Eddystone Reef and the Lizard" it states "Eddystone Reef is an isolated pinnacle of garnetiferous gneiss in the English Channel about 14 miles south of Plymouth...". See Eddystone_Rocks#Geology for details. BRG is quite an old reference, but does this help?  —Smalljim  14:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah, thanks - that's a useful context and I'd not thought about Eddystone! Geopersona (talk) 18:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Devon Population?

the devon Population is much less than what you put, go on the actual uk population count site. Literally just search devon uk population. 2600:8801:380A:5E00:6BD0:CC2C:ACBF:65CA (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, Plymouth isn’t in Devon 2600:8801:380A:5E00:3491:1F70:6CAB:5E9 (talk) 01:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

If you could provide a source...and despite having a separate municipal government, Plymouth is still very much a part of Devon in every other sense.--SinoDevonian (talk) 20:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Flag

I'm just opening a flag discussion, if it's felt that one is needed given the flag was recently added back to the infobox.

Personally, I think covering the flag in the article body is adequate. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Support inclusion. The St Petroc's Cross is an important and recognisable symbol of Devon and its regional identity. It sees widespread use across all walks of life, and as far as local significance goes its likely only behind Cornwall and Yorkshire with their flags with both still displaying their flags in their respective infoboxes. The Devon Flag has been shown in the infobox for close to 10 years at this point and it hasn't caused any issues beforehand for readers. The purpose of the infobox is to give the reader a concise overview of Devon, so giving the flag a prominent position in the article by keeping it in the infobox is beneficial to the reader despite the existence of the more in depth section further down the article. After all we include other at-a-glance info in the infobox which is developed further in the article body such as governance or demographic info, so I would not say that it justifies omission on that basis. LocalTrainTales (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The flag is still included in the article, for the record. It has a subsection within the 'symbols' section, which links to its own article.

I can't find much information about how the flag is used within Devon. There's this article from 2006, when the flag was first flown from county hall, but apparently not much else. I'm sure it's flown here and there, though.

In any case, even if the flag is widely used I wouldn't consider that a compelling reason to include it in the infobox. The purpose of the infobox is to give an overview of the ceremonial county, and the flag isn't an official flag of the ceremonial county. Its history and status can be better explained in the article body. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope Yes, the flag is in the article body same as other bits of information which are included in the infobox as well. I don't think duplication or development of material mentioned in the infobox further down the article does not justify removal from said infobox.

I live here and I can definitely say the flag isn't just "flown here and there", it sees extensive use across Devon and by Devonians living outside of Devon. The exceptional extent to which the flag is used and how significant it is to the people of Devon compared to most county flags warrants its inclusion in the infobox, same as it does for the Cornish Flag which has the same status as Devon.

The infobox should give an idea of the character of the county, as it does via images. The flag is an important aspect of that character regardless of official status (it doesn't have to be represented via a flag icon, an image will suffice in my opinion).

Also articles about English Counties should represent the same county, both Historical and Ceremonial, without the need for a separate article. If this article truly was only about the ceremonial county, the flag wouldn't be in the article at all since its official status is of the flag of the Historic County of Devon. I would say since the flag is associated deeply with Devon, we shouldn't prevent its inclusion to the detriment of the reader based off a technicality, but if it is a big issue we could rename the infobox title to historic and ceremonial county, with ceremonial county specific information being listed under its own heading (e.g lieutenancy) as it already is. A small inconsequential change which solves the issue. LocalTrainTales (talk) 12:37, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The 'official' WP:UKGEO position is that the historic counties no longer exist, so it really wouldn't be appropriate to have a flag representing the historic county in the infobox, which is supposed to be about the ceremonial county. It's not a position I fully agree with, but also not one I can just change (despite some efforts in that direction).

If you can find and add some sources for the flag being widely used within Devon that would be really good. We do need some, because a lot of county flags have been added to Wikipedia based largely on registration with the Flag Institute, which is a bit of a shaky foundation. Evidence of actual use makes the case for their inclusion much stronger. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that is WP:UKGEO's position, however in Devon's case the flag is flown widely to represent Devon with no distinction between Traditional/Ceremonial counties even if it is technically registered as only the official flag of the former. I still think it is more beneficial to the reader for the flag to be displayed in the infobox as an important symbol despite this, and Devon should be treated as an exception to the WP:UKCOUNTIES guidance. After all a reader is likely looking at the infobox of the article titled "Devon" to get a brief overview of Devon, and the flag is a very significant symbol to Devon and its diaspora.

I'll go ahead and add as many sources as I can find for flag usage to the Flag of Devon article, don't anticipate it being too much of a problem since I genuinely can't walk five paces without seeing one in public whether that be from a building or a bumper sticker.

I agree with your point about the flooding of county flags with dubious foundations. I just think Devon is not one of them as it was the trendsetter not the follower. The 2000's wave of county flags was largely a result of the success and widespread acceptance of the St Petroc's Cross. Devon had a genuine popular homegrown movement to give its people their own flag following an increase in awareness in Devon's celtic history around that time, whereas the ones that followed suit seemed to be artificial attempts to replicate it but without the local support or sense of identity to allow their flags the same level of significance in my opinion. LocalTrainTales (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding. Personally, I don't think that either the Devon or the Cornwall flags need to be in their respective county infoboxes. Each has its own article and subsection within the article, and neither is ultimately 'official'. In the long term I am trying to gain consensus for a proper guideline on flags, so I'm sure potential exemptions will be addressed when it's discussed.

The issue definitely isn't that Devon's flag doesn't deserve to be in the encyclopedia – it's definitely in popular use – it's more a question of how best to include it and how much consistency to have between articles. The Lancashire flag, for example, is unlikely to end up in that article's infobox because it's used outside the current ceremonial county (e.g. in Greater Manchester) and so can't be strictly claimed to represent it. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I also support including the flag in the infobox. I agree with your reasoning. GhostOfNoMan 22:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

UK sub-national geographic flags discussion

I've opened a new discussion at WikiProject:UK geography about sub-national UK flags, including county flags. Anyone is welcome to participate. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Great Mewstone

I find it extraordinary that French Wikipedia has an article on this island when the English version does not?