Talk:Deaths in May 2020

Yu Lihua age

The age for this May 1st entry bounces around from 88 to 90. The accompanying source (here) states "Ms. Yu Lihua was born in Shanghai in 1931" and "The 90-year-old Yu Lihua contracted this wave of new coronary pneumonia and died in Washington on May 1" via Google Translate. Is there a reason it is being changed back to 88?-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:56, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Where sources are vague (or just plain wrong) with their information, we always go to the person article to quote information researched there. Her article clearly gives the November 1931 birthdate and states her age as 88 (which would correctly tie up). What happens in the case of any queries or disagreements with information contained within her article is that her Talk page is approached and not this one. If the details in her article change, then we would probably change accordingly here. In other words, as a general list we're mostly led by her own article and the sources approved in it. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:00, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Aldir Blanc

Now come on. If the guy was a "physician" or a "psychiatrist" as well as a songwriter, show us the evidence - don't just throw it into the entry without explanation. Thank you. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:46, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I've found this which, when translated, confirms he left psychiatry to take up songwriting and lyrics - however, there is no expansion of his activity in that former field at all, and I don't see that it forms a significant part of his notability, so I won't be re-adding it. Conversely, if someone else decides to re-introduce it I won't be reverting. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 22:07, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Dave Greenfield

"Greenfield died on Sunday having contracted the virus after a prolonged stay in hospital for heart problems.". So, we cannot say that COVID-19 was the cause of death - it may have accelerated his death, or it may not - the source does not say, it simply says that he tested positive for COVID-19. This is a systemic problem - everyone who died with COVID-19 is said to have died from COVID-19 when that may not be the case. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The Statement on the Band's official website refers to him losing his fight against COVID-19 so I take that as if it did contribute to his death. BM1196 (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The statement does not say that he lost his fight against COVID-19. It may have contributed, but that's not an explanation of why only COVID-19 is listed. The statement says: "Following a stay in hospital for heart problems, Dave tested positive for the Covid-19 virus last Sunday but he sadly lost his battle last night.". That's his battle for life, not necessarily his battle against COVID-19. There is a wider issue, of which this is one example - that all deaths of people testing positive are being given as deaths from the virus, when we do not know whether that is the case. It may be a contributory factor, but only one among others. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:48, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that’s a bit inferring on your part. They wouldn’t have mentioned COVID if it didn’t play a part in his ultimate passing. Heart problems is incredibly vague and can entail many ailments. Would those heart problems have killed him by themselves the day he died if COVID didn’t play a part? Rusted AutoParts 20:50, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that demonstrates the problem. If someone dies having tested positive for COVID-19, it will be mentioned, because the current situation demands it. "Would those heart problems have killed him by themselves the day he died if COVID didn’t play a part?" We have no idea. "Would COVID-19 have killed him if he hadn't had heart problems?" Equally, no idea. But we are choosing one above the other, without any justification. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:53, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

But there really isn’t no justification though. The official statement about his passing makes a very specific point to say he had COVID, which is capable of killing. It’s similar to how one wouldn’t mention someone battling bone cancer prior to dying unless it had a direct influence on said death. I just don’t see how saying he died from COVID is incorrect or anything. Rusted AutoParts 21:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

It's an inference that is not justified by the source information. That's why the BBC site, for example, says: "The Stranglers keyboard player Dave Greenfield has died at the age of 71 after testing positive for Covid-19." It doesn't say he died from the virus - it says he died "after testing positive" for it. There is a difference. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

PS: See this: "There were 3,912 deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19) that occurred in March 2020 in England and Wales; of these, 3,372 (86%) had COVID-19 assigned as the underlying cause of death.". Those figures are not identical - 3,912 "involving" COVID-19, of which 86% had it as the "underlying cause of death". But, 86% is not 100%, and we don't know if Greenfield's death was one of the 86% or one of the 14% (or whatever the current figures are) - we have no basis for making any assumption, based on the information we have so far. We can guess, but that's not good enough, especially when we know he had other health problems. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

PPS: OK, Burnel has said that he "passed away as one of the victims of the Great Pandemic of 2020." So, I won't push this any further. But the basic point still applies - that I think there is a danger that we are listing COD in some cases as COVID-19 when we know only that it was a contributory factor, or that someone has tested positive - not whether it was the underlying cause. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I pushed further, noted his heart disease by the same logic we note his COVID, "after". Also noted Shooter's liver and Blanc's urinary tract. Letting a COVID infection, even lacking apparent symptoms, override everything else in a source is nuts, especially for an organization without a vested interest in inflating the toll. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

My battle with Folengo has flared up again, so I'll succumb rather than die fighting. But suggesting a 24-year-old died from this old folk disease is still nuts. Reads like his alcohol-related liver problems didn't hospitalize him. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, at least capable of killing a 31-year old with no underlying conditions or many people in their 30s and 40s with very few issues. At least 50 people I knew died from it and very few of them were done anyway. It may not be lethal in most cases, but take a million cases and some very unlucky guy will be there. So good as a CoD.--Folengo (talk) 09:23, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Those folks aren't this guy, who did have serious liver disease, which did cause him to die after catching this bug, instead of recovering like a normal young person. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:48, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Giulio Savelli

( The following has been transferred from my personal Talk page, as it is more appropriately dealt with here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:40, 13 May 2020 (UTC) )

Why is there no mention of him being a Deputy (or even a politician) here? You are using the Italian Wikipedia as a source and WP:WIKIPEDIAISNOTARELIABLESOURCE. GiantSnowman 08:27, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with you after doing some other research on the internet and not just a single-source examination. A political publisher he may have been but I accept there's nothing to support the claim in his Italian article that he was a politician. And so I have removed that part from his entry in Deaths in 2020. However, I maintain that the Inter Language Link you removed the other day refers to an Italian article about him (and not about another Italian born on exactly the same date who died on exactly the same day as him), and as such I would ask that you do not remove the ILL link until such time as he is either given an English article (doubtful) or the entry disappears during the 30 day redlink removal exercise. Thanks for pointing out the error. Ref ^(chew)(do) 09:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

This is about the politician - definitely born on 27 September 1941 in Rome. Where is the place/date of birth for the publisher? The article simply says he was 78...it could be that two people with the same name born in the same year have been confused by Italian editors. GiantSnowman 10:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Having looked at it again from the viewpoint you offer, I'm prepared to say that the information contained in the Italian article is unsafe to trust. So I am removing the ILL to be on the safe side. None of us want disinformation in Wikipedia - it's a shame it doesn't seem the same diligence applies in every language version of WP. Thanks for the time you've taken to point out the conflicting facts on this. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

The ILL has been restored by another editor, regardless of what has been said in this conversation. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

And he now has an English article, so I withdraw from this discussion. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

The article has been created by @Vycl1994: - what evidence is there that the publisher who died is the same person as the Deputy? There is no mention of a political career in the news piece about his death... GiantSnowman 16:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Per L'Unione Sarda here. The source cited by this list states "Savelli, che era sposato con la giornalista Pialuisa Bianco, approderà poi in Parlamento negli anni Novanta con Forza Italia." (Savelli, who was married to the journalist Pialuisa Bianco, then served in the Parliament during the 1990s with Forza Italia). Vycl1994 (talk) 16:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC) edited 19:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC).

Fred Willard credits

@TDKR Chicago 101: the Guest collaboration is already covered with Best in Show. Dismissing a 65 episode show that Willard starred in despite it being mentioned frequently in obituaries is unfair. Willard acted in television too, that should be included. Rusted AutoParts 21:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I tend to agree, though I'm not super fussed about it. Best in Show and Waiting for Guffman, while very notable credits for Willard, cancel each other out somewhat. The inclusion of the also notable Fernwood 2 Night in which they starred provides a wider diversity of notable works across multiple acting fields.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:49, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Regardless of the outcome, I strongly object to removing all Guest collaborations as was done in this edit.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Fine. Keep Best in Show then but replace the other ones with Modern Family and Everybody loves Raymond. Are you ok with that @Ponyo:? DrKilleMoff (talk) 22:20, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

The Modern Family and Everybody Loves Raymond roles were both Emmy-nominated guest roles, so, like the Guest collaborations, sort of cancel each other out. I also think that they suffer a bit from a bias towards recentism. I don't think there's a right answer here, we just need to find consensus for which three credits should be included. -- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, how about one Guest collaboration, one of the tv shows and one more? DrKilleMoff (talk) 09:56, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rusted AutoParts:, what do you think? Best in Show (multiple awards), one of the Emmy nominated supporting roles (Modern Family or Everyone Loves Raymond) and then a third entry?-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

It should go Best in Show, Fernwood 2 Night and then whichever title also best reflects him. Which of the Emmy nominated spots was he more known for/appeared in more? Rusted AutoParts 16:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

He appeared in 13 episodes of both Emmy-nominated roles. @DrKilleMoff:, what say you?-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:28, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

It seems like both shows are mentioned just as much in the obituaries so it's pretty much six of one and half a dozen of the other.DrKilleMoff (talk) 18:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

For a final note on this, I will say I put it as (BIS, F2N, Modern Family). Rusted AutoParts 14:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Birth year of Lucky Peterson

I'm confused about the birth year of Lucky Peterson. IMDB and Billboard both say 1964, while some sites say that he was born in 1963. Articles that say 1963: [1], [2]. Articles that say 1964: [3], [4]. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 10:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

MikaelaArsenault, please don't use {{help me}} for edit requests. Thank you. I dream of horses (talk page) (Contribs) Remember to notify me after replying off my talk page. 11:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Mikaela was asked to use Help me as Request edit is explicitly for COI edits, which is not the situation here. -- ferret (talk) 11:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I dream of horses. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 11:03, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Of the sources provided, I would put most faith in Billboard. Until a birth certificate is available, we can only follow the most reliable source. WWGB (talk) 11:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Public records like this (subscription only) state December 13, 1964. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I have access to ancestry however that's not an acceptable source as it can't be verified and we generally do not allow such documents for living and recently deceased people. Praxidicae (talk) 18:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Personally against the use of any lineage-tracing sites for reliable sourcing here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't use it as a source, but it can help to confirm the accuracy of other sources. By the way, I wish that people would learn the very important difference between the user-generated trees on Ancestry (never acceptable), and the wide range of publicly available official information (census records, directories, etc.) which I personally access through Ancestry because it's convenient, but which is publicly available elsewhere if people know where to look (through reference libraries, for example). Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

PLease re-read WP:V. A birth certificate, while available publicly would likely require a certain level of WP:OR to determine that it belongs to the correct person. I wish people would understand this. Praxidicae (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Determining that the person mentioned in any source is the same person that is covered in our article is always, inevitably, necessary. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

And that's why we rely on WP:RS and not ugen and sources like birth certs. Also please see WP:BLPPRIVACY which still applies to recently deceased people. If it's not covered in actual reliable sources, it's not relevant to the article. Praxidicae (talk) 20:17, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Not really sure why you're keeping this thread running. I haven't edited the article. I was simply helping to assess which of the contradictory sources were accurate, and which were not. And accuracy is relevant. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:51, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

AllMusic cites December 13, 1964 here. A deemed WP:RS. Plus the source currently used on the 'Deaths' page states he was aged 55 at this death. As does the Billboard article. We are only concerned with the age at death on this page - so surely that is sufficient. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:46, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

User:MikaelaArsenault

@Ferret: This isn't working, is it ? We've got volunteers trying to handle edit requests from Mikaela that they cannot action. We're quite some distance away from reliable sources in many (most/all ?) of Mikaela's edit requests. When do we make the decision to pull the edit request exemption and have the BLP ban extend to talk pages, edit requests and all other BLP related areas (i.e 'broadly construed') ? Nick (talk) 20:30, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Nick: On the fence, I believe Mikaela is trying. The talk page's current sections is also not a clear record as several of her requests have been completely removed after being answered/implemented. Several other article talk pages show completed requests and valid reliable sources provided. This particular section seems to legitimately show possible contradiction between sources (though all might be weak sources). -- ferret (talk) 20:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Mikaela is a prime example of "don't bash the newbies" - I'm prepared to indulge the editor to a point, as long as the rules are grasped and followed within a reasonable time. And this thread keeps running because previously established consensus on sites such as Ancestry is being challenged via the personal opinions or preferences being expressed in the thread. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Refsworldlee Mikaela is subject currently to an arbitration based topic ban for repeated BLP violations, which include recently deceased people. However, the comments about Ancestry are unrelated to Mikaela, but several removed edits are relevant. Praxidicae (talk) 21:30, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Understood. Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:33, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Praxidicae, on this particular talkpage, the wikignomes tend to remove requests for changes that are non-controversial within a day or so of OP, if satisfactorily answered. Some of Mikaela's requests were some of those and, thus, removed, as with any other editor's requests. If we didn't maintain this page, said requests would remain here for 40 days, as mentioned in the TP header, causing a rather long talk page. It should also be pointed out that, in the past, Mikaela has attempted to edit this page and made formatting errors; she was asked to simply request changes here, before her sanction, until she became comfortable with the page format. Wyliepedia @ 04:53, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm on my phone, so that’s why I make the formatting errors. MikaelaArsenault (talk) 13:34, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

With respect, here is not the place to defend your position. Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Carlos Jirón cause of death

Just to explain why the cause of death (as I write) is quoted as "complications of diabetes" and not "COVID-19":

Yes, the English source being used states that in its headline, but not directly within the body of the article. A Spanish language source, which directly quotes his son, states that the funeral was rapidly carried out due to the COVID-19 emergency, but death was caused by (translation) "complications of diabetes and hypertension". See this link ("Hijo asegura que no fue por coronavirus" is "Son assures that it was not due to coronavirus".

The Spanish source is not in use because we always use an English one if possible, even if its headline writer makes wild assumptions and they allow that to be published. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:01, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

"He is the third deputy of the National Assembly who dies in the last two months, but the first attributable to the coronavirus pandemic." within the body of the article. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

You quote from the English language article (let's make that clear for transparency's sake). You know that I am quoting from the Spanish language article passing a statement from the deceased's own son that it was diabetes complications and not COVID-19? So what would make you think the English article's assumptions (for that's what they are given the son's assertions in Spanish) would take precedence over a family statement? Or is that not the point you are making here? Ref ^(chew)(do) 16:16, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

It's the English source being used stating it within the body of the article, which was different that you said above. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:34, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The source should be replaced or removed, since it doesn't source what the Wikipedia article says. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

You leave in an English source where one is available (this is English Wikipedia). However, as you must know, if you wish to qualify some further information via a foreign language source you simply quote the source link in the edit summary (like we have done at least three times with this particular edit). It's been done like that for years. Get the consensus for that changed here and we'll all go along with it, of course. Reflecting truthful information in the article trumps pedantry. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Willie K filed under W

Is this appropriate? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:33, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The categories at his article sort under his full last name, but that doesn't mean it applies here. Wyliepedia @ 06:40, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

It follows from the likes of Sheila E. (sorted under S) and Malcolm X (sorted under M). WWGB (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Bhanwar Lal Sharma

Are we sure the Rajasthan politician who died is the same person in the article? Sources adfirm he was 95, person in the article should be 75 and looks visibly younger. I think there's some misunderstading here. --Folengo (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Having looked at the edit history for his article, the IP (who has easily exceeded 3RR) seems certain that it is mistaken identity. Being bold and believing in safety first when calling someone deceased, I've removed it from the page. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Lombini and Rossetti, Italian swimmers

Hi. I have notability concerns regarding the two Italian swimmers killed in a microlite aircraft crash. Lombini competed in the Taipei Universiade in 2017, winning silver in the Italian swimming championships the same year. However, Rossetti only ever competed at youth level in Italy. I question whether either satisfies the minimum level required to be considered a notable swimmer of whatever nationality. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 23:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Lombini probably can be around for 30 days as he was involved in the national swimming scene in Italy and had competed in Europe. Rossetti I removed as he did not win any major awards in the youth leagues or received major coverage for swimming exploits as a youth- which is the criteria in other WP:Notability (sports) categories.SunnyDoo, 03:01, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Accepted. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:08, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Gregg Bemis

Why no listing for the May 25th death of the owner of the RMS Lusitania ?

I find that rather curious.

Also, the lack of an entry for Gregg Bemis is rather curious. 2600:8800:784:8F00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 21:54, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

If you look through the article, you’d find Bemis listed on the 21st. Rusted AutoParts 22:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)