Talk:David Lucas (composer)

David Lucas (composer) was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 13, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed
January 9, 2019	Good article reassessment	Delisted

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 10, 2011.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that David Lucas, who produced and sang backup on Blue Öyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" also wrote AT&T's "Reach out and touch someone" jingle?

Current status: Delisted good article

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The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:David Lucas (composer)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Rp0211 ^(talk2me) 23:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Infobox

No reference in article to validate birth date

Lead

Add years in brackets in subsections to make it act as a timeline
No reference in article to validate birth name being "David Helfman"
Specify full birth date; city of birth not necessary
"American" does not need to be wiki-linked per WP:OVERLINK
He has written a number of well-known commercial jingles, such as AT&T's "Reach out and touch someone",[1]... – Reference not needed in lead; info should be in article
...and been recognized multiple times by the Clio Awards. – Reword phrase
In 1981, he received a Clio for composing the music to Pepsi's "Catch that Pepsi spirit".[2] – Reference not needed in lead if info is in article
...with many new artists such as the early Blue Öyster Cult. – Use of "early" may confuse readers; reword phrase
...skit on Saturday Night Live.[3] – Reference not needed in lead
In June 2011, Lucas was inducted into Buffalo's Music Hall of Fame.[4] – Source not necessary in lead
All of the above issues have been fixed. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Biography

Please include official birth date, name, and location of birth
...as both of his parents Eileen Russell and Daniel Helfman were singers and performers. – Needs source to validate information
Removed. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He attended Bennett High School in Buffalo, where he sang in the choir,[6] and then Miami Beach Senior High School, graduating in 1955.[7] – Specify year he left first high school for next one
Unfortunately, the source does not provide the year. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(followup) I contacted the subject directly to ask about the high school information, and he provided the years in an email (attended one high school from 1950–1951, then transferred to the other school). I have added the information to the article, though it is of course unverifiable via published sources. Personally, I could go either way on this, per WP:AUTO, since I see schooling information as the kind of thing that's usually fairly innocuous, and okay to include simply on the subject's say-so. But if other editors disagree, any unsourced information can of course be removed. --El on ka 15:16, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At the age of 19... – Change "19" to "nineteen"
...choosing artists such as the young Paul Anka, Frankie Avalon, Sam Cooke, and The Everly Brothers, and encouraging local DJs to play their music. – No source
He continued with record promotion until he was drafted into the United States Army, after which he moved to Miami Beach, where he was a social director and performer at the Attache Hotel. – No source
He made ends meet by selling vacuum cleaners during the day, and attending night school to learn about mutual funds. – No source
...and joined him for a world tour, after which Lucas moved to Los Angeles, where he worked as a songwriter and producer. – No source
In Las Vegas, he sang at the Sahara Hotel, where he was noticed by popular singer Doris Day, who was impressed, and signed Lucas to her record label, Arwin Records. – No source
...who in 1966 was killed in an auto accident. – "...who, in 1966, was killed in an auto accident."
With the exception of the noted items above, all others have been addressed. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jingle writer

Also in the 1960s... – Get rid of "Also"
...such as for Macleans Toothpaste... – Awkward phrasing
...which led to an offer to write a song for National Airlines. – No source
Second paragraph has many consecutive sentences beginning with "In this year"; edit this prose
Earlier, while producing for a group called Think Dog, Lucas had met Tom McFaul, the group's lead singer, pianist, and composer. – No source
McFaul became a staff composer at David Lucas Associates in 1971. – No source
Situated in an old spice warehouse, they called it the Warehouse Recording Studio, and it hosted such artists as Paul McCartney... – Fix awkward phrasing
...who used their studio to cut one of his albums.[9][20] – Specify album and year it was released in brackets
All of the above have been addressed, except for the last one, since the sources do not provide that information. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Blue Öyster Cult

...for the new band... – Reword phrasing
"Reaper" became a huge hit, and is listed at #405 on the Rolling Stones list... – Add (') between "Rolling Stone" and "s"; use "number" instead of "#"
This choice became legendary when it was parodied by Christopher Walken in Saturday Night Live on April 8, 2000. – No source
All of the above have been addressed. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Current projects

Specify details in chronological order
In 1998, Lucas sold the Warehouse (now owned by Wyclef Jean) and moved back to Miami where he built a studio and is continuing to write songs and jingles. – No source
In 2010, Lucas co-wrote a song with his son Jason Lucas, which was sung by actress Kyra Sedgwick for The Miracle Project of Hollywood to benefit autism. – Specify song title
Lisa Lucas, a well-known and award-nominated child actress in the 1970s, played "Addie Mills" in several CBS holiday specials, and became a journalist as an adult. – No source
Prose modified, and sources added. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Awards

Combine all sentences in one paragraph
Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jingles

According to WP:EMBED, "In an article, significant items should normally be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely listed." Put this information into a prose.
Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

References

Reference 1 – Publisher is needed.
- Sorry, I looked and couldn't find the problem here? The work was TIME magazine. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 2 – Since "Radio" is a magazine, it should be in the "work=" parameter and should also be italicized
- Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
References 3, 7, 19, 20, 21 – Link article to website
- Not sure what is needed here? The articles were not web articles, but were located in library archives. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 4 – "Text and video clip" not needed
- Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 5 – "Press release" not needed
- Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 6 – How can a video be in a magazine?
- PM Magazine was the name of television news program. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
References 10, 11, 12, 17, 28, 34, 35 – Not sure if these are a reliable sources
- Agreed, but I don't believe that they are sourcing anything controversial, so they were included as primary sources. Are there any in particular that you have concerns about? --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 27 – "Rolling Stone" is a magazine and should be italicized
- Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reference 36 – Wiki-link publisher ReverbNation.com
- Good catch! Done. --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overall review

After thoroughly reviewing this article, I have found many issues keeping this article from good article status. There are several minor prose issues, which can be fixed easily. However, there are several areas in this article where there are not sources to validate this information, violating WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR. To put an article on hold, I usually give the nominator seven days to fix these issues. With the magnitude of the issues I have found, I have decided in good faith and to the best of my knowledge to fail the article at this time because I do not believe all of these issues can be fixed within the general seven days. Once you have addressed all of these issues, you are welcome to renominate this article again. Rp0211 ^(talk2me) 00:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I very much appreciate the time that you took to review the article, and your detailed comments. I have addressed most of them, and have a very few questions on a couple items (listed above). Thanks again, --El on ka 02:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up

Hey, Elonka. I want to apologize for any inconvenience in this nomination process that has occurred and want to let you know that I was acting in good faith when deciding the outcome of this nomination initially. I am now going to look over these issues again to make sure everything meets good article status. Rp0211 ^(talk2me) 03:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Issues as of 05:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Infobox -> I could not find a source in this article to validate his date of birth.
Lead -> "Reach out and touch someone" can be wiki-linked to N. W. Ayer & Son to appear as "Reach out and touch someone"
Lead -> "Catch that Pepsi Spirit" can be wiki-linked to Pepsi#Slogans to appear as "Catch that Pepsi spirit"
References -> For Billboard articles, you can use Google Books to find actual articles from the issues

Despite these issues, the article is a very good article that is close to reaching good article status. Good job on fixing the issues I presented earlier. Rp0211 ^(talk2me) 05:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for your assistance with this. I have addressed the changes in the lead (nice finds!), and added a few URLs to Billboard articles. Regarding the birthday, this was something that was provided by the subject himself, when I contacted him for photos. Per WP:AUTO, it is my understanding that individuals who are the subjects of articles are allowed to provide certain basic information such as about their birth, employment status, current residence, etc., as long as it is not unduly self-serving, nor contradicted by other published sources. I have found nothing that contradicts the date, so felt it was better to include it on the subject's say-so, rather than have an article with "year of birth unknown". In any case, it's moot now, as the subject sent a copy of his driver's license to the WMF, who have confirmed the DOB on the talkpage.[1] So, there we go! :) --El on ka 16:59, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good find on verifying his date of birth. Since all of the issues have been addressed, I feel confident passing this article into good article status. Congratulations and keep up the good work! Rp0211 ^(talk2me) 18:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

David Lucas Birthday (WMF Office)

Hi - the Wikimedia Foundation has received official documentation as to the date of the subject's birth. While this is not verified in secondary sources, it has been our protocol to accept such information for dates of birth when provided. The information provided is: 21-April, 1937. For the Office: Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 15:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:David Lucas (composer)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article has multiple issues which makes it unworthy of having GA status. I believe it would not meet the GA criteria unless someone is dedicated enough to fix the issues. Ikhtiar H (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it does not meet GA standards. At one point, I made a significant pass-through to try to remove the most significant problems, but I could not remedy everything. As you say, Ikhtiar H, it would take significant effort to make the necessary improvements. Innisfree987 (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ikhtiar H: I updated some of the references and fixed some typos. Besides fixing the references without titles and the dead links, would you like to detail your specific concerns so editors know what to work on? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 01:24, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So, I count at least 10 unsourced claims, which is pretty serious for a BLP. There's additionally a significant amount of material that feels like trivia and/or puffery (I don't really understand the sentence about the yacht on a grammatical level, let alone why it's encyclopedic?), and then, when we get all the way down to it, I have some concerns about whether there's even sufficient secondary source coverage to establish notability (beyond verifying currently unverified BLP details.) Trimming trivia and the related not-great sources may make that clearer tho. Innisfree987 (talk) 03:27, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoingBatty: apart from that, the article needs some copyediting and a few trimming here and there. The cleanup banners are the noticeable and the main reasons for this reassessment. The article did not have much update since its promotion to GA and I am leaving 14 days for improvement before demotion. Ikhtiar H (talk) 15:30, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This page Still havet some source issues and I think it's safe to be delisted. ImmortalWizard(chat) 11:47, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]