Talk:D-sharp minor

If D# Major has nine sharps, what are those sharps? A scale contains 8 notes, then it could not be nine .

A D-sharp major scale goes D-sharp, E-sharp, F-double-sharp, G-sharp, A-sharp, B-sharp, C-double-sharp, D-sharp. Once you fill up all seven notes with sharps or flats, you go back and start doubling them in the same order (which is why no one ever uses D-sharp major). 138.16.31.233 (talk) 14:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a couple of corrections to this:

A scale actually contains 7 notes - not 8, which the name "octave" misleads many people into believing. The supposed eighth note is merely a duplication of the first, and is really the first note of the next octave. But the only meaningful way of counting notes in a scale is to count only unique notes. Since note-names go only from A to G, there can only be 7 notes in a normal major or minor scale.

It's not quite true to say no-one uses D-sharp major. It is very rare, for the reason you suggest; but passages in this key are occasionally encountered. For instance, Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 24 in F-sharp major, op. 78, contains a theme in the second (and last) movement which alternates between D-sharp major and minor. I'm sure I've seen various other examples too.

I have even seen examples of passages several bars long in even more remote keys like A-sharp major (Chopin's Polonaise-Fantaisie) and E-sharp major (piece by Alkan - "Quasi-Faust", I think - the section in question is in a fugue in about 10 voices, and includes a triple-sharp or two, and is a horror to sight-read). A-sharp major includes three double-sharps, and E-sharp major includes four.

Similarly remote keys at the flat end of the spectrum, such as F-flat major, D-flat minor, or G-flat minor, are also occasionally encountered. Isaac Albeniz's "Iberia" suite is replete with passages in very remote flat keys, beginning with C-flat major and going even into keys that use double-flats (such as F-flat major in "Navarra" and "El Polo"). M.J.E. (talk) 03:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

An excerpt from the Quasi-Faust fugue is at File:Quasi-Faust fugue - Alkan.png.

²³¹₉₁Pa (chat me!) 08:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Enharmonics

Howcome, if the two enharmonic key signatures each have the same number of accidentals, one of them (the flat one) is used more often? How is it better if it has the same number of accidentals? There must be something wrong with the woodwinds then, if they find 6 flats easier to read than 4 sharps (says so in E major). This is not fair. It is all symmetrical, hence sharps and flats are of equal importance. Majopius (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Not being a wind player, I cannot comment on this specifically as it would affect wind players - but I can speak as a pianist and composer.

The main reason for the paucity of use of keys like D-sharp minor and A-sharp minor is very likely that their raised leading note - a note used very frequently in minor-key music in traditional style - is a double-sharp, whereas the corresponding notes in the equivalents of E-flat minor and B-flat minor are natural notes. This doesn't apply to G-sharp minor, which also has a double-sharp leading note, but the fact of it using only 5 sharps as against the 7 flats of its enharmonic equivalent of A-flat minor seems to outweigh that most of the time - but there are a number of pieces around in A-flat minor, even so - but G-sharp minor is probably rather more common.

This double-sharp leading note issue alone may well account for it; but I believe there may be more to it. Over the years, I have noticed that, quite often, when music gets rather chromatic, the chromatic notes seem more often to be raised notes and less often lowered notes. If you are in D-sharp minor, raised notes will include B-sharps and various double-sharps, and many people will find too many of these in a short space difficult to read - especially if there are two or more different double-sharp notes sounding simultaneously - whereas if the key of E-flat minor is used instead, those same notes will be indicated by naturalizing notes that are flat according to the key signature. They are chromatically altered just as much, and in precisely parallel fashion - but many people will find this notation easier to read. Composers may find it easier to compose that way, or even if they don't, they may realize some performers may, and cater to that. For an example, it would not be too uncommon for the dominant of the dominant of the tonic key to occur in any piece - for instance, a D7 chord if you were in C major. Well, such a chord in D-sharp minor would be E#7, or E#-Gx-B#-D# - whereas that same chord in E-flat minor would be F7, or F-A-C-Eb. That probably quite graphically illustrates why E-flat minor is usually preferred, except by a few die-hard purists like Alkan who sometimes refuse to write enharmonically for the sake of simplicity.

Interestingly, if you had a piece whose chromaticism was of an exactly opposite type, involving a majority of lowered notes, the opposite may apply: using E-flat minor would tend to involve F-flats and various double-flats, and D-sharp minor would use naturals for these, and would thus be easier to read than E-flat minor. But, presumably owing to the way harmony has evolved, let's say, since the time of J. S. Bach and right up to the gradual disintegration of traditional harmony, it appears that raised chromatic notes are much commoner than lowered ones. (I have never actually read that anywhere, but have observed it over the years. Of course there are individual pieces which are exceptions to this, owing to the particular style of harmony they use. So if a piece in B major, for instance, used lots of double-sharps, it might conceivably make it easier to read if that were notated in C-flat major, where all the double-sharps would convert to naturals, although composers seem to have a bias against using this key, even when it may make sense owing to the tonal context and style of harmony.)

I hope that belatedly clarifies the question a little. M.J.E. (talk) 09:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually it seems that it's mostly a matter of preference: People seem to choose F# major > Gb major(not that much), and D# minor < Eb minor more often (but this preference may be due to the reason described above).

An example: the song Lament of the Highborne is notated in Eb minor, but iirc, in actuality it is a song that cycles between F# minor and D# minor. (And how is it notated in 6 flats? It uses naturals instead of double flats. For illustration, an F#m chord (F# A C#) would be notated as Gb A Db rather than Gb Bbb Db. To me, reading this notation is even more irritating than reading the equivalent using double flats, let alone the equivalent in 6 sharps.)

As I've observed, when a piece in F# major involves a great many sharp accidentals, it's likely to be notated in Gb major. But when a piece in Eb minor involves a lot of flats, it's still likely to be notated in Eb minor even when that would make reading the score harder. So I think it's a matter of preference, but I myself don't like this preference and would choose to use D# minor as long as it makes reading the score easier. W7n (talk) 03:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

More on this:

The choice of one signature over its enharmonic equivalent may be based on a variety of factors. Here is a list of some:

>Simplicity - One of the two primary factors, since it's easier to read naturals than to read sharp/flat accidentals. Writing a score in C-sharp major is fine, but usually it is somewhat harder to read than D-flat major, especially if it modulates into sharper keys (but if it modulates into more natural keys then C-sharp major is preferable). The raised leading note in D# minor being a double-sharp is one of the reasons why this key is often less preferable compared to Eb minor. As for F# major, though it would modulate into its dominant, it also has a large tendency to modulate into more natural keys, like F# minor for example, so for the piano this key is probably more preferred than Gb major (depending on the composition itself, still). But for other instruments, see 'instrument mechanics'.

>'Theoretical consistency' - The other of the two primary factors, usually with brief modulation passages. An example: If you're writing in B major and would modulate to the dominant of its dominant, which is C-sharp major, then it's reasonable to use this 7-sharp signature (and it's not that hard to read since it doesn't contain an enharmonic switching). In these cases, the extremely rare C-flat major and A-sharp minor signatures may also be encountered. Sometimes, when the composer weighs this factor more than simplicity, very remote keys like E-sharp major can be seen written with accidentals.

>Instrument mechanics - Some instruments would sound better or be played more easily in sharp / flat keys. For example, for the harp, C-flat major > B major since the former key works better even when it's a 7-flat key. For pieces written for more than one instrument, the composer needs to consider the existence of, say, B-flat wind instruments. If he/she writes a score in D# minor, for these B-flat instruments it would require an E# minor notation which has a double sharp in its signature. Alternatively, F minor can be used but this would be 'theoretically inconsistent'. Thus, writing the whole score in flats would be preferable.

>Convention - There are some conventions on choosing signatures, sometimes for historic reasons and sometimes for no compelling reason at all. For example, when writing in E for B-flat instruments, the theoretically consistent key is F-sharp, but G-flat is somewhat preferred.

>Preference - Some composers have preferences over choosing keys. Different moods may be assigned to each individual signature: For me, a more mysterious mood is assigned to D# minor, while a typical pathetic mood is assigned to Eb minor. So I would have D# minor in my mind when listening to a song with a mysterious mood and in this key (I have absolute pitch), but this doesn't apply when transcribing scores, in my case.

>Easiness of writing esp. transposing: If you have an existing piece in C major and would want to transpose the piece up a semitone, then transposing it to C# major would require much fewer changes than transposing it to Db major. With computers, this is much less of a problem; but without computers, this was the case with the C# major prelude in Book 1 of The Well-Tempered Clavier.

>Tuning - The two keys in question are not enharmonically equivalent at all.

Now some examples on exactly which key is preferred (for the piano, an instrument which doesn't make playing sharps or flats easier):

Lone D# minor with more raised accidentals than lowered accidentals - Eb minor is preferred

Lone D# minor with no accidentals - Both are fine, though Eb minor may be preferred (a matter of preference)

Lone D# minor with lowered accidentals - D# minor is preferred

A modulation Bm - G#m - A#m* - Bm : For the 3rd key, both A# minor and Bb minor are fine (it is preferable to write with only sharps or only flats). The longer the period of the 2nd key is, the more preferable Bb minor gets, and vice versa.

A modulation C#m - D#m* - F#m : D# minor is normally better, though it still depends on the exact score.

A modulation D#m* - Em : Same as the case with a lone D# minor, since D# minor to E minor is relatively remote on the circle of fifths. An example: If you write in D# minor with the chord progression B - C# - A#7, and the song modulates to E minor with the next chord being the dominant of the dominant of A# major. Which is B# major, making it not even theoretically consistent. Thus Eb minor is preferred.

W7n (talk) 14:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

We Found Love

Hello, the song We Found Love is actually in D♯ minor or F♯ major ? Fort123 (talk) 15:20, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Music written in this key is considered exceedingly difficult to read

How is E-flat minor easier to read than D-sharp minor? Both keys have six symbols. --2.245.115.87 (talk) 05:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree. It's not easy, but "exceedingly difficult"? Nah. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

See my long explanation above: I suggest two possible reasons why one enharmonic version may, for a given piece, be easier to read than the other. Very briefly, it comes down to two possible factors: some extreme sharp minor keys have a double-sharp leading note, and many (but not all pieces) when they introduce chromatic notes tend to generate these more often by raising diatonic notes and less often by lowering them. Both these factors would tend to favour Eb minor more than D# minor. M.J.E. (talk) 11:39, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

The problem is basically that:

1. It is annoying when the parallel key requires double accidentals; and
2. It is even more annoying for a minor key because then the double-sharped leading tone is diatonic; and
3. Since in this case the alternative has exactly the same number of accidentals in the key signature, the trade-off is obvious.

Which is, I suppose, why E-flat and B-flat minor totally dominate D-sharp and A-sharp minor. G-sharp minor and A-flat minor instead show two viable choices. With a major key you must choose between parallel or relative keys with double accidentals, so for F-sharp/G-flat it is quite balanced and for C-sharp/D-flat there is still a viable choice. B totally dominates C-flat, I suspect because C-flat minor is simply horrible and because C-flat is already a white key. Double sharp (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2020 (UTC)