Talk:Cwm Rhondda

duplicate text

In the history section, the welsh version contains the repetition of 'Colofn dan rho’r nos i’m harwain, A rho golofn niwl y dydd;'. The error is obvious because the translation is directly adjacent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.12.204.74 (talk) 08:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

2008

I don't think these two should be linked. The tune is the same, granted but the words are in a different language and changed. It is therefore a different song! Cls14 14:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cls14. Cwm Rhondda is a tune, also used for "God of Grace, and God of Glory." The song "Arglwydd arwain trwy'r Anialwch" should be on its own page and have the majority of this content. Chruck (talk) 06:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think the expression "lyrics" is appropriate to a hymn, it really only applies to popular music.

• We now have two inconsistent English translations for largely overlapping Welsh words, I think they ought to be made consistent

• The format (shading etc) of the text boxes should be consistent

• There is a discontinuity between "William Williams" in the introduction and "Williams Pantycelyn" under Meanings.

• Under Meanings, the story does not stop at Exodus but carries on through Deuteronomy - the crossing of Jordan does not occur until Joshua chapter 4. It would be helpful to have more specific references to all the relevant biblical passages.

• Redeemer should have a capital R.

• Under Instances of Use, "The hymn has been sung .."

• Given that the article is also about the tune, it would be helpful to have a paragraph specifically about the tune, eg according to my A&M it is set to A flat major, the 3rd line is a repeat of the 1st line, etc.

• I also seem to recall that this hymn was used very repetitively (I think they repeated the same verse over and over again) in the film "How Green was my Valley", and this is probably worth a mention. Ehrenkater (talk) 21:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Good points. I've had a go at some of them. Hope they rate as an improvement. Feline Hymnic (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

This http://www.hymnary.org/hymn/PsH/543 seems to be the most informative website I've found on this subject (note it suggests a semitone lower). Sorry, I don't have any more useful information on the hymn book. Ehrenkater (talk) 22:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Could some native Welsh speaker provide the correct pronunciation? I've heard that the 'w' is pronounced as a long 'u', and 'dd' is something like 'th', but I'm not sure how accurate this is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.250.253 (talk) 15:30, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

2009

Also, I've never heard the last verse of the welsh 'Arglwydd arwain trwy'r anialwch'. there are 5 commonly sung verses, 4 of which i can remeber Arglwydd arwain drwy'r anialwch; Agor y ffynhonau melys;

the third verse is Pan fwy'n myned drwy'r Iorddonen Angau creulon yn ei rym Ti est drwyddi gynt dy hunan, Pam na'i bellach ofni dim? Buddugoliaeth, buddugoliaeth Gad i'm weiddi yn y don!

(when i GO THROUGH the jordan Cruel Death in its power You went through it previously yourself, why should i fear anything now? Victory! Victory! Let me shout amongst the waves. and the final verse my favourite Ymddiriedaf yn dy allu; Mawr yw'r gwaith a wnest erioed, Ti gest angau, ti gest uffern, Ti gest satan dan dy droed. Pen Calfaria, Nad aed hwnnw fyth o'm cof.

(I wholly trust in your might; The works you have wrought are ever great, You have death, you have hell, You have satan trampled underfoot. Head of Calvary, May i never let it slip from memory.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.133.159 (talk) 12:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Bread Of Heaven

"and often erroneously called Bread Of Heaven" is a point of view, and needs an explicit source to back it up. !often nicknamed Bread of Heaven" would be better. -- 219.89.184.242 (talk) 06:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Section retitled: Cwm Rhondda

I show a posting below that I received last night on my talk page, together with my reply, and the user's response:

Bread of Heaven

I enjoyed your collection of flags at the top of this page.

I know (the English version of) the hymn that includes the line "bread of heaven". In fact, it is right up at the top of my favorites. But please tell me what is the specific connection between Welsh rugby and "bread of heaven".

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 22:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Cwm Rhondda is a very well known Welsh hymn tune. First performed in 1907. Cwm Rhondda translates as "the Rondda Valley" in English, and more often than not, sung to the words: Guide me, O thou great Redeemer. Wales rugby union supporters adopted it years ago, although the reason is not understood, apart from the fact that it is an inspiring song which everyone knew (Sundays in chapel) and could keep repeating, and repeating... I think it splendid.

It was sung at the funerals of both Princess Diana and the Queen Mother, and at the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton.

Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

It is indeed splendid, both tune and words. The version I learned (in the United Church of Canada) began Guide me, O thou great Jehovah.

The part of the story I did not know was its adoption by the Rugby union. A great anthem, known to everyone in Wales. I guess it is a natural. Wanderer57 (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Leeks for sale: Are you ready for The Six Nations?

I am wondering if you would be kind enough to add below any knowledge you may have on this topic.

Many thanks for your time.

With kindest regards,

Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk)

Responses to some of the above

I have inserted a section on the tune, as it is to the music that the name Cwm Rhondda strictly applies. This includes a brief life of the composer, probably not sufficiently notable for his own article as this is his only hymn to survive in use, but worth a mention here. I might have raised some controversy on the first date of the tune, but all the Welsh books agree on 1905 for the original.

I have also re-ordered the hymn texts, putting the main English and Welsh words first and losing the full text of Full salvation (yes, it's a great hymn but we can't put them all here!)

My feeling is to keep the words in this article; the English Guide me O Thou great Redeemer / Bread of Heaven is all but uniquely associated with this tune and the lovely Anne Griffiths Welsh words are virtually unknown other than to Welsh speakers. Neither needs a separate article in my view. In Welsh tradition, the associations of words and music are very strong so the name of the tune usually implies the text anyway.

I need to chase-up, then tidy up, the history of Pantycelyn's text - I feel the original and current versions are all we need. This might take a while!

John M Brear (talk) 17:21, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Other than translating a verse, I've now sorted the loose ends on the texts of both the Pantycelyn and Griffiths hymns.John M Brear (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Prompted by a bot who didn't like the gap, I've finally translated that missing verse! I really would like someone to improve it!! John M Brear (talk) 23:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Translation confusion

"The Welsh version shown here is a somewhat literal translation from the English version back into Welsh." I don't understand this, since what's shown is an English version, a Welsh version, and then a second English version which is described as a verbatim translation (from Welsh to English). Since the article summary says that the hymn was "originally Arglwydd, arwain trwy’r anialwch in Welsh", why would the Welsh version here be a translation?

Also, it talks about some hymn books "omitting verse 2 of the 6" but above only three verses are given in total. Ed Avis (talk) 16:53, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

Would someone add a line about how to pronounce 'Cwm Rhondda'? I know how to pronounce it, but I have heard people say 'C.W.M.' <spelling it out as if they are initials. And then, 'Ronda', like a feminine name. I don't know how to use the international phonetic symbols. But it is something like this in ordinary English equivalents: Coom Hrontha. R, trilled? th, voiced, I think? -rob

24.204.160.140 (talk) 16:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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See Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2021 April 22 - this translation is copyrighted. MER-C 18:01, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

You might usefully copy over your research to here? And Idris Bell should be added? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Hymn vs Tune

CWM RHONDDA is a tune. "Guide me, O Thou and/or my great Redeemer and/or Jehovah" is a hymn, i.e. a text. St. Augustine defined "hymn" in the Christian sense thus "Know ye what a hymn is? It is a song with praise of God [cantus est cum laude Dei]. If thou praisest God and singest not, thou utterest no hymn, if thou singest and praisest not God but another thing, thou utterest no hymn." [1] This article is about a hymn pairing. Although at this time in the United States and the United Kingdom (including, yes, Wales) CWM RHONDDA is by far the predominant tune to pair with this text, over time and across a body of water this has not always been the case. If you look at the pie charts in the pertinent tune authority and text authority pages, you will find among other things that more of the instances in the Hymnary.org database (which indexes more than 1800 instances of "Guide Me" in hymnals, as well as 315 instances of CWM RHONDDA) have involved the tune ZION composed by Thomas Hastings, than have involved CWM RHONDDA. I don't know that ZION ever got much play in the UK, but even there, there were certainly other tunes that once had priority for pairing with "Guide Me...". After all, CWM RHONDDA first appeared in 1905, while the hymn text in English goes back almost a century before that, and the Welsh original decades more. I don't know what the Welsh hymn was sung to originally; I know it was sometimes paired with CAERSALEM. It was sung to tunes during those decades. This article, in addition to ignoring the very nature of a tune pairing, focuses much more than it ought to on the present day in that connection while going into lots of detail on the historical variants of the text.

CWM RHONDDA is not only used for that text, either. I was raised more than half a century ago singing "God of grace and God of glory" to it. Our hymnal had "Guide me..." in it, set to ZION, but we never sang it to my recollection. Now I work on text-tune pairing questions every day. I wish I could think of a really satisfactory way to address this in Wikipedia. I think the answer is to have the tune CWM RHONDDA and the text "Guide me, O Thou great Redeemer" each in its own article, and addressing the pairing choices in each from the appropriate POV. I should probably also mention that although not universally adhered to, the use of ALL CAPS for tune names (aka tune titles) is a very widespread normative usage in hymnology, e.g. in the Hymnary database. --Haruo (talk) 04:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)