Talk:Major Players/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Nicknames

Whoever killed the added nickname of "Those Edge Guys," don't do it. Michael Cole called them that more often than he called them "The Rated R Entourage." If you kill any of those names, it should be the latter.

Name Change

YEAH, thats right. It's not what you think though. If you think that a version of they're name should be used, put it in the info box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kperfekt722 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Mystery Team?

Some idiot put them as the mystery team for vengeance. There aren't any sources I'm erasing it. Seth103

Brian and Matt Logan are not the same team as the Majors. The Majors where never the PWF champs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.246.208 (talk) 02:48, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Some one put that their profiles had been taken off of wwe.com but they're still there

Armageddon

Stop posting that it was the Major brothers who helped Edge win the WHC at Armageddon 2007, unless you can back it up with a reliable source. NiciVampireHeart (talk) 15:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

WWE.com seems like a reliable source to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.208.58.134 (talk) 16:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware it was on WWE.com, and it wasn't when i posted my earlier comment. Thank you for pointing it out, and I'll add it into the article. Except I'll put in a reference, which everyone else who has edited the page seems unable to do so. Also please sign your comment. NiciVampireHeart (talk) 16:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The Edge-heads

Okay their name is not officially Edge-heads, this page will remain similarly to the New Age Outlaws as they are named as V.K.M but were best known as the New Age Outlaws. So the Majors are now Curt Hawkins and Zach Ryder, but the page will still be named the Major Brothers.--TrUcO9311 ^{T / GB} 03:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your move because you did it improperly. Next time use the "move" button at the top of the page. Now an admin will have to delete the old Major Brothers redirect so this one can be moved back there. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 03:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well fine, ill use the move button but go here Here--TrUcO9311 ^{T / GB} 03:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

When will be the right time for the page to be renamed, when they win the tag titles? Steveweiser (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably not for a long time, especially since they have not appeared on TV as "The Edge-heads" (Cole and Edge called them that, but that's it). We go by what they are best known as. If they are still known by this name in a year or so (which I actually doubt since these lackey gimmicks don't usually last that long), then maybe since they only made there debut earlier this year. TJ Spyke 21:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ive heard that WWE might name them "The Rated Rmy", pronounced like Rated Army (Adam Hardcastle (talk) 18:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC))

Ok, but that's not currently their name.--TrUcO9311 ^TaLk / _SiGn 19:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually they are officially called the Edgeheads (DannyChaos23 (talk) 16:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC))

Bad page name

Articles are supposed to be at what the team is BEST known as, which is Major Brothers for this team (why do you think that Voodoo Kin Mafia are at New Age Outlaws and Team 3D are at Dudley Boyz?) TJ Spyke 03:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Separate Articles

I think it's about time that separate articles for Matt Cardona and Brian Myers were created, as we know enough information about them now. All the other tag teams in the WWE main rosters have their separate articles, such as London & Kendrick have their own individual articles as well as Deuce & Domino. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Excessbaggage80 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Um: The Highlanders (professional wrestling). Also, not in WWE but look at Harris Brothers. They don't have seperate articles because 95% of the two articles would be the same. Since the articles would be almost exact duplicates, the tag team page is enough for both. TJ Spyke 23:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thay Should Get There Own Pages

Curt Hawkins And Zach Ryder —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.98.180 (talk) 03:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

They would be almost exact duplicates of each other, so it's not gonna happen anytime soon. TJ Spyke 03:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There's no point. Both articles would be about 95% the same. At this point they stay combined. By the way, this was discussed in the section above, where the answer was also no. NiciVampireHeart (talk) 03:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There Both DIffrent Thay Need There Own Pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.185.98.180 (talk) 04:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a basic spelling class for the mentally vulnerable. Lex ^T/_C Guest Book 19:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The articles would be almost exact duplicates, how hard is that to understand? Just about the only differences would be the weights of them, and the individual finishing moves. That's the same reason that the articles on Ron Harris and Don Harris were merged into their tag team article Harris Brothers and why The Highlanders don't have individual articles. If you want to register and create test articles, you can try. TJ Spyke 04:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

They are no longer a tag team, Curt Hawkins is not even on WWE TV anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.197.146 (talk) 18:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous

They are not the "EDGE-HEADS". This is like Cantino, Londrick and all other unofficial names. Please someone remove it from the infobox, the prose and the lead. Alex ^T/_C Guest Book 19:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

DDT finisher

Ok this is becoming a constant problem. Now this currently to fit their gimmick will be their finisher, and I've been watching their tag matches and they use it to finish the match. Can it at least be added as a signature move, or possible their finishing move as using it continuously to me seems to at least be added.--TrUCo⁹31¹ 00:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead. TJ Spyke 00:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Should be renamed

lol, ringmaster. those were the days Hollywoodd 23:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kperfekt722 (talk • contribs)

The article should be renamed "Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder" or "Hawkins and Ryder," as they should be known more as this now. Stone Cold Steve Austin's page isn't titled The Ringmaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.23.218.242 (talk) 04:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Do people bother to look at the threads above? We go by what they are best known as, case closed.--TrUCo⁹31¹ 04:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel pretty self-important don't you? It's hilarious how kids think they have some kind of authority via an Internet site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.23.218.242 (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It's funny how little kids think that by insulting people who know how to read guideline and policies make them feel like bigshots. Truco is trying to help inexperienced editors like you, wrestlers articles are listed by what they are best known as (hence why the Voodoo Kin Mafia's article is New Age Outlaws, since that is what they are best known as). TJ Spyke 02:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

They did so little as the Major Brothers on the main roster. Are they really known better as that? Mshake3 (talk) 05:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mshake. Road Drugg & Rockabilly had a long run under the NAO moniker that included world tag-title runs and important tag-title programs. So not renaming their article to VKM is understandable. But The Major Brothers didn't do anything of note. They hung around for 6 months, with no programs or notable victories/accomplishments. However, the push they're currently receiving is bigger/more notable then anything the Majors ever have done. I think a renaming of the article should be reconsidered.--Endless Dan 13:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Just redirect Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder to The Major Brothers then.--Numyht (talk)EDIT: Already have done 11:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Last Smackdown, they referred to themselves as the Rated R Entourage. 172.131.192.153 (talk) 21:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh god another name change dispute, that is just a nickname given by themselves, like the self proclaimed "Wrestling God"--3L VaK3r0 21:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

My IP may or may not be different than it was back on Monday, but it's the same person here. I wasn't suggesting to change the article name to Rated-R Entourage. I was just pointing that out so that it could be considered for a place in the article, which it apparently now has. Their official fan page carries that name as well, but that doesn't add to the point too much. And trying to invalidate the point because they referred to themselves as this is not good. Especially when using JBL's "Wrestling God" as an example. Nor would Edge's "Rated R Superstar" nickname, Roaddogg and Kip's last tag team name "Voodoo Kin Mafia", or Christian's nicknames of "Captain Charisma", "the Instant Classic", and "the Champ". Or, better yet, the Undertaker's "Lord of Darkness" moniker. Cause guess who introduced those nicknames to them on TV? Yeah, that's right. Themselves. Again, I'm not trying to change the name of the article. I'm just saying your basis for apparently trying to belittle the new nickname from being anywhere in the article, is really not that good. 172.129.141.7 (talk) 00:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The majors are not relevant

They were just a jobber act. Yes I bothered reading the comments above. It's like listing the Edge page as Sexton Hardcastle, the Umaga page as Jamal, or the Kane page as Isaac Yankem DDS, they changed gimmick, and moved a big step up the card, they're more relevant as Hawkins&Ryder. Besides, it's their real names, makes it even more relevant. Someone change the page's name to "Curt Hawkins and Zach Ryder" already, there's really no point keeping it as irrelevant as it is. But then, I shouldn't expect logic from powertrip land Wikipedia (which questions why I even bother posting this here knowing that the usual one or two people who consider this page theirs will reply an instant no, I don't know myself). --81.64.118.63 (talk) 22:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

their real names are Brian Myers (Hawkins) and Matt Cardona (Ryder) actually. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 22:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind me being stupid on that one. Worst part is that I actually knew it. Thanks for the reminder anyway. Take the eponymity argument out of my original message then --81.64.118.63 (talk) 22:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

They suck —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.232.218 (talk) 01:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion but wikipedia is not a forum. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 13:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Death

I know this is in all likelihood vandalism but why does it say curt hawkins died in 2008?201.238.126.9 (talk) 23:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It was vandalism, removed.--SRX^--LatinoHeat 23:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hawkins finisher

Hawkins has used a turning facebuster from a neckbreaker position to win matches. Notably, against Jesse and Festus, twice.

Ryders Page

I Made Zack His Own Page Please Edit It To Help It http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapalwld Sorrey About The Articles Name Fix It Will You

Russian Legsweep/STO combo

Ive never actually seen it, so why should it be included if i have looked all over the internet and never found such a move. can have a link?

--75.45.213.46 (talk) 22:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Mark J 8/24/2008

Woo Woo Wee Woo!

You know it!

I'm shocked that their recent gimmick change hasn't been mentioned here. In several WWE.com shows they've appeared with entirely new characters (Ryder saying 'Woo woo wee woo! You know it!" a catchphrase suggested by Scotty Goldman, and Hawkins acting embarrassed by his partner). Surely this recent expsoure warrants mention. It may not be TV, but it's WWE produced content. 24.128.53.252 (talk) 03:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Split

Now that Ryder(?) was drafted to ECW they now need seperate pages, I'd do it myself but I don't have the time at the moment. If anyone wants to take this little challenge please do. ^The  Jay  Experience  01:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

No they don't. They havent done anything notable as singles wrestlers. RobJ1981 (talk) 04:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The articles will be exactly the same except for about three or four sentences. There's absolutely no point in creating separate article for them yet. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 16:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but have DH Smith and Sim Snunka done anything as single wrestlers? How come they get seperate pages? Why don't all the jobbers/developmental talents in WWE get on page then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrpengo88 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What do developmental talents or DH Smith have to do with this discussion? ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 04:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Just saying that anything notable done or not, every wrestler deserves their own page Mrpengo88 (talk) 22:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Eh, no they don't. Read WP:N. There is a notability guideline on wikipedia. Just because someone is a wrestler, doesn't mean they are automatically notable. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 00:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

So when some rookie debuts in a squash match against a super heavyweight, he dosen't get his own page?Mrpengo88 (talk) 00:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

No, not unless said rookie has been active on the independent circuit for a while, and has done something notable on the indy circuit. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 11:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I kind of feel like they should have their own pages at this point. There are sports athletes, other wrestlers, etc who have done less (including on the ind. circuit) that have their own pages. If one or both of them are about to get a push, they should each get a page. Kjscotte34 (talk) 16:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The fact that this isn't split is ridiculous. Curt Hawkins hasn't appeared on TV in many months, and Zack Ryder has been wrestling under a new gimmick as a singles wrestler. Not only that, but his former association with Hawkins isn't even mentioned anymore. I fail to see how he's not notable for his own article other than bias on the editor's part. Also, MrPengo88 mentioned DH Smith etc to further the point that Zack Ryder is indeed notable for his own page, in fact, even more so than for a tag team that is no longer active, in case you couldn't grasp that. 71.186.135.100 (talk)

Neither Hawkins nor Ryder have separate pages due to a consensus formed at the pro wrestling wikiproject. You can see the discussion here. You are however, more than welcome to challenge the consensus. Simply bring it up at WT:PW, and others will tell you their opinions on the matter. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 04:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect to the parties involved, that consensus appeared to have been reached over the course of ten minutes. I don't do a whole lot around Wikipedia, and I'll be the first to admit that, but it seems odd to me that a vote cast over a period that short would be touted as gospel. In my opinion, it's worth revisiting--and certainly worth letting sit for a while so people who aren't conveniently online during the ten-minute time frame of the discussion have time to weigh in.LordSousa (talk) 04:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

<--Well, it is being rediscussed at WT:PW now, so once that's conluded, I'll cite it as WP:CONSENSUS. I was not touting anything as gospel, I was just informing people of the consensus. ♥Nici♥Vampire♥Heart♥ 08:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

And I see it over there now, thanks. The discussion's going on there as well, and it looks like a few people are weighing in. Thanks. LordSousa (talk) 14:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Given that Ryder has just had a match against the ECW champion - a match that could not be described as a squash match - I think he's passed the notability threshhold and the time has come to give him a page of his own. I've started to create one. Feel free to add. -Kae

Ryder deserves his own page. He is very successful in singles wrestling which completely sets him apart from his counterpart. If Duece and Domino can have seperate pages, Ryder needs one too. Zack Ryder! Woo Woo Woo You know it! (talk) 06:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ryder debuted in 2004 in New York and after two or three matches he started tagging with Hawkins under a variety of names. They tagged together in New York, then in DSW and WWE for five years. Since they split he's had 10 matches on his own. TEN matches in his five year career as a wrestler. Harry Smith has been wrestling for nine years (and training five years or more before that) and has toured Japan and the UK on his own and has won two Stampede titles and an AWA title on his own (and wrestled without Hart Dynasty members for a while to get them). Sim Snuka/Jimmy Snuka, Jr has been wrestling over a decade and didn't get paired with Domino until three years ago; he has won an IWA title and OVW title on his own. Zack Ryder has wrestled ten matches solo, with very little storyline. This is Wikipedia, not WWEpedia; promotions outside WWE count especially notable indies like IWA and major non-indie promotions like New Japan. Tony2Times (talk) 21:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I think now would be the perfect time to challenge the old consensus on Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder not getting their own separate pages, or "articles", if you will. After all, Ryder did just beat about 10 or more guys in an ECW Battle Royal on ECW tonight to make him the #1 Contender for Christian's championship. And considering how long Christian's held the ECW Championship now, and how long the average ECW Championship run lasts on average these days (a couple months tops), I think it's reasonably fair to surmise that there's more than a small chance that Christian will drop the ECW Championship to Ryder at WWE Hell In A Cell, or whenever Ryder gets his title shot.98.209.48.133 (talk) 04:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There is more of a contention to get a singles page but most of your argument lies in conjecture of Ryder winning the title. Personally I don't see him winning but you could well prove me wrong, either way it's the future and we don't know and for the sake of 3 weeks I think we can wait. If he wins it, then you'd have a much bigger argument but still for now he's only had a small percentage of his entire career not wrestling with the other one. Tony2Times (talk) 16:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This deserved to be split. Ryder is the number one contender for the ECW Championship, if thats not notable, I don't know what is 142.162.48.113 (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually being the ECW Champion. Number one contenders for belts more prestigious than the current incarnation of the ECW Title get named all the time. You're talking as if he's not included at all. He is, information is all here but his own career amounts to nothing more than four or five sentences extra to this page; indeed those sentences are already on this page. Tony2Times (talk) 22:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, just curious, why does a page for what still currently comes up with the headline Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder come up with a url that ends in "/Zack_Ryder" (when you type Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder in the search bar and try to click the link that made the page url end in "/Curt_Hawkins_and_Zack_Ryder", you get the "Find/Save/Cancel error message box"? Is this just temporary pending the upcoming title match featuring Ryder, and if he wins he will finally get his page split from Hawkins, because if he does win the title in a few minutes here, and doesn't get a page split, that would be pretty ridiculous.98.209.48.133 (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

He lost, so we'll never know.--WillC 03:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

@WillC: We still may get the pages separated assuming Ryder could get a rematch for the ECW Championship come HiaC and he wins it there...at the very least, even if he lost at a title match at HiaC or any pay-per-view, it would still be his first singles appearance, in a title match no less, and at a pay-per-view. Certainly you can't tell me that wouldn't amount to a significantly more substantial amount of notability, especially, as I said before with a title win. In that instance, he would indeed be very deserving of his own page...still though, can't we go back to the old URL for now? It's going to confuse the hell out of, and piss off, a lot of people if they use the current URL only to find that the page is still just the H&R Tag Team page.98.209.48.133 (talk) 04:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

You went through a redirect. Anyway, it is content forking either way. He does not have a big enough career to pass where it is not content forking. Simple as that, he is no where near notable enough for his own page.--WillC 03:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Personally

Personally I don't think either deserve a page. 69.243.42.251 (talk) 02:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Refusing a Split makes PERFECT SENSE

Yeah, they don't deserve a page.

We have to keep Wikipedia clear. I mean, how else will pages like SPERM QUALITY keep getting tons of hits?

While you're at it, delete pages of all rock band members who never had a successful solo career. They never accomplished much on their own, they shouldn't have a page. Bye bye, Wolfgang Van Halen's page!

Drop the attitude. RobJ1981 (talk) 12:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

He makes a great point though. Since the split Ryder has gone on to become something decent on ECW. The same might not be said for Hawkings, but fact is they're two different people, who should be regarded as a former tag team and individuals. Plenty of pages exist for Tag Teams and solo stars, just look at John Morrison and The Miz's for a perfect example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.216.76 (talk) 03:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Morrison and Miz were singles wrestlers long before they wrestled as a team, so that example isn't the same as Hawkins and Ryder. Wrestling a few matches as a singles wrestler doesn't justify a page here. There's been discussions on this, and it's not going to instantly change over some random editor coming here with a sarcastic post. RobJ1981 (talk) 09:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

On the last ECW episode, Ryder seemed to be starting up a feud with Shelton. The dude is not some random jobber. He's been a heavily pushed part of ECW since he debuted with the new gimmick and it's a joke he doesn't have his own page yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.89.202 (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Abraham Washington has his own page...what has he done again? Yet Ryder defeated Christian, had an awesome MAIN EVENT match, and is now in a mini feud and gets no page of his own. Keep this page for Hawkins and Ryder as a TAG TEAM and just get Ryder his own page and not Hawkins. Chris2038win (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC).

Washington passes the notability bio rules. Ryder has not had enough time to build so that cutting him off would not be content forking. If Ryder gets one, Hawkins has to as well. That is usually how it is done.--WillC 07:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Not to sound repetetive but

Ryder debuted in 2004 in New York and after two or three matches he started tagging with Hawkins under a variety of names. They tagged together in New York, then in DSW and WWE for five years. Since they split he's had 10 matches on his own. TEN matches in his five year career as a wrestler. Harry Smith has been wrestling for nine years (and training five years or more before that) and has toured Japan and the UK on his own and has won two Stampede titles and an AWA title on his own (and wrestled without Hart Dynasty members for a while to get them). Sim Snuka/Jimmy Snuka, Jr has been wrestling over a decade and didn't get paired with Domino until three years ago; he has won an IWA title and OVW title on his own. Zack Ryder has wrestled ten matches solo, with very little storyline. This is Wikipedia, not WWEpedia; promotions outside WWE count especially notable indies like IWA and major non-indie promotions like New Japan.

It's not that neither of these wrestlers are notable, it's that neither of them are notable on their own having spent 10 of 210 matches apart. The Harris Brothers spent longer than that solo and don't have their own page. Someone tried to do Ryder's solo page a few weeks ago - it was all but identical to this one just without Hawkins' finishing moves in. Semen quality articles are important to people who are trying to get pregnant, Hawkins having a page isn't important to anyone because he's done nothing of note yet. When he does he'll get a page but in this economy he could be dropped at any moment and like many tag teams from WWE could hook back up and be a tag team again. Get a grip, one 'main event' on WWE's c-show among 165 others, not to mention some 500 on their B show SmackDown and some 830 on their A-show Raw is not news.

And "seems to be having a feud" means nothing as feuds are cut short all the time and plans rewritten before shows. One Monday Primo said he hated his brother, that very Friday he was tag teaming with him; he MIGHT have a feud with him, he also might not. This is an encyclopedia and we wait until stories are concluded to tell them, if you want to see a week by week breakdown of his matches go to CageMatch or OWOW. Tony2Times (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, Ryder has just had a match with Shelton as of last night's ECW, albeit in a losing effort. If that isn't enough notability to give Zack Ryder his own separate page on Wikipedia in ANYBODY's opinion, well then, I'm very sorry, but you are full of horseshit no matter who you are.98.209.48.133 (talk) 10:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

He has an article, it's here. Look at the article someone made for him. It's EXACTLY the same aside from two or three sentences because Hawkins&Ryders' careers are EXACTLY the same aside from a handful of matches. I'm starting to hope he gets released just to prove the point. Tony2Times (talk) 13:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Brooks had a match higher up on the ECW card than Ryder last night, why don't you write him an article? Or Tom James? Tony2Times (talk) 13:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I must confess I too am having trouble with the logic of refusing a split. Hawkins seems to have been sent back to FCW or at least gone inactive, which leaves Ryder as the only current singles competitor without their own Wikipedia page, and only one of two current on air personalities without their own page, (the other being Ranjin Singh.) Your proposed standard fails in that both Shad Gaspard and JTG, who have no notable careers as singles competitors have not only individual pages but also a tag team page at Cryme Time. Even if both were released today, (which is unlikely given Ryder's critically acclaimed match with Christian on July 28,) there is enough material to write two distinct articles on these two wrestlers. If nothing else, allow the pages to stand separately for a probationary period to allow the editing public to have a chance to create a quality article -- RoninBK _{T C} 06:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Ryder could still get released. Having a good match in WWE's eyes means nothing. It matters if he can draw crowds and make money. Because an good wrestler is only apart of wrestling, being marketable matters. Benjamin is an amazing wrestler, but is not really marketable. So having a good match would mean "oh we can't fire him, he had a good tv match we have to push him", then Benjamin would be a main eventer with "all" the belts around his waist, WWE would have made sure A.J. Styles was signed, and Mr. Kennedy would have not been released the day after his return.--WillC 11:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Why did you bring up A.J. Styles and Mr. Kennedy? This is not a discussion about their careers but rather the tag and individual careers of Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder. But since you brought up the other names as well, they, too are fair game for discussion. A.J. Styles would never have, and never will sign with WWE. And as for Kennedy, well, it's no secret why he was released: A.) He's accident-prone, and 2.) He nearly caused a severe and possible career-ending injury to a co-worker in the main event of that night's edition of Monday Night Raw. That is all.98.209.48.133 (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

To try and prove a point. AJ was about too but his wife wanted to go to school and not move, probably the best decision he ever made. Kennedy actually is not injured today and a botch happens to everyone.--WillC 11:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, WP:MERGE supports what we're doing:

• Overlap – There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.

In order for the two to have separate articles, there needs to be a lot more information to distinguish the two. As Tony said, their in-ring careers are practically the same apart from Zack's last four months, which has been nicely summed up in five sentences. The best way to approach this would be maybe to go into material outside of their wrestling careers such as a Personal life section for both men (with suitable reliable sources, of course). And as a matter of interest, a merger for Cryme Tyme had been proposed before, but no discussion came out from it. --  Θakster   10:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I don't agree with JTG and Shad getting single pages. If anything this page should serve as a precedent to have their pages deleted. Also The Bella Twins don't have individual pages so this is not the 'only' wrestler who doesn't have an individual page, as if there's not a world outside WWE. Tony2Times (talk) 23:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

If Zack Ryder and Curt Hawkins havn't done much, then why should Jesse and Festus get single pages??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.142.63 (talk) 11:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Because Festus was the Imposter Kane in 2006, so he has a singles career. While Jesse, IDK.--WillC 13:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Because Jesse wrestled for seven years before he was teamed with Festus and toured Japan as well as winning two titles in the notable indie NWA Wildside as well as being in DSW under his current gimmick and reforming the Godwinns. Unfortunately his article isn't expanded fully, but seven years wrestling in notable promotions I think warrants a full article. Tony2Times (talk) 21:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It's ridiculous that Ryder doesn't have his own page. Some of the reasoning you people are giving defending this one page for both of them is just stupid. I mean seriously, he's the #1 contender for the ECW championship! If he wins the ECW championship would that still not give him enough notoriety to have his own page? The fact is, Ryder needs his own page, period. Anybody who says otherwise is just trying to be difficult.

Ryder and Hawkins arn't even a Tag Team anymore! Zack Ryder was a WWE Tag Team champion, and now hes number 1 contender for the ECW title! He deserves a single page, hes been in WWE for 3 years, I think it warrants for one...

He does have a page, it just happens to be combined with his tag team partner of five years rather than be about his 3 months on WWE's C-show and contendership (not winning) their lowest rated belt. Tony2Times (talk) 11:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yoshi Tatsu has his own page and Ryder doesn't. Nuff said.

Ryder has a page, it is just shared with Hawkins. Yoshi has a career that is not shared with someone else.--WillC 03:43, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Just give Ryder his own page. Stop arguing for asinine Wikipedia rules and do what is logical. Ryder has his own identity now, and deserves his own page. I await your nonsensical repsonse.

Donco (talk) 20:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing that would be on his article that isn't already here. How nonsensical(!) Tony2Times (talk) 21:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There is already a section on this page that is continuously growing that is dedicated to Zach Ryder's solo career. He has wrestled for the last five months without Hawkins, has become a ECW title contender. How many matches is Ryder required to wrestle before he gets his own page? How long does the "split" section (which is entirely content about Ryder) have to be before he gets his own page. The Wikipedia guidelines are just that -- guidelines. They are not hard and fast rules, and there are no quantitative measures for when an individual gets their own page. Common sense best practices apply. It is obvious that Ryder is getting a strong solo push, and as he does, the Ryder content will only continue to grow. Why not make a page for Ryder to keep the current (and future) Ryder-only content separate from the Ryder-Hawkins content. That makes LOGICAL sense.

There happens to be separate pages for Devon Hughes and Mark LoMonaco, even though 98% of their wrestling career has been together. I would argue that Ryder's current solo stint now equals any solo stint of either Hughes or LoMonaco - in fact, Team 3D were only split for 6 months in the WWE. Ryder and Hawkins split is approaching that now. And at least 80% of Lomanco's and Hughes's individual pages are the same content. In addition, there is a separate entry for Team 3D, which restates all of that content. This seems to go against the above-mentioned Wikipedia guideline. Perhaps the marks, I mean, "editors", simply don't like Ryder as much as they do the Dudleys.

The problem is that the majority of the people who are "editing" the wrestling content for Wikipedia are kids with nothing better to do than fake authority using loose interpretations of the Wikipedia guidelines. A minority of voices takes ownership of an article and hijacks it from other Wikipedia users because it gives them some sense of authority. I ran into this in the past on the Christopher Daniels page, where editors (and I believe WillC was one of them) refused to allow an addition that Daniels was playing Suicide (at that time) even though numerous reliable resources were reporting it. (Including the Baltimore Sun, a well-established newspaper). Grow up and get a job and life. --Goosedoggy (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Attacking people isn't needed Goosedoggy. This has nothing to do with hating or liking Ryder, so get over it. Making assumptions and attacks doesn't help Wikipedia or this article at all. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Neither does a small minority taking ownership of the article and preventing the logical addition of a single page for Ryder. The Wikipedia guidelines are just that -- guidelines -- and there is not a uniform execution of these rules throughout Wikipedia. And having a handful of editors - in this case it looks like 4 distinct editors - hijack the discussion from the rest of the community goes directly against the spirit of Wikipedia.

Get over it? The only thing that is over here is Zack Ryder and his career. It seems pretty evident from this thread that the Wikipedia community WANTS a separate page for Zack Ryder, and creating one would not go against Wikipedia guidelines as I and most of the other users here understand them. Guidelines that are not enforced uniformly to begin with. The guidelines are up for personal interpretation, and it simply is unfair to the more casual Wikipedia user that the entire debate is owned and decided by a handful of "editors" who are misinterpreting the rules.

I apologize for the personal "attacks", but when a debate is being hijacked by a vocal minority, sometimes it takes drastic measures to get your point across.

I noticed that you didn't address any of my other points. Please feel free to do so.

--Goosedoggy (talk) 23:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

A few random people on the talk page certainly isn't the "Wikipedia community" that controls what is done to the article. Longtime editors (myself, as well as several of the other people saying a split isn't needed) actually know policies, but people refuse to think so and keep arguing about it. Don't post nonsense about hijacking, when you apparently don't know policies either. According to you, the opinions of many people trump everyone else. That's not quite how Wikipedia works. Policies aren't just ignored because many people don't understand them. As said before Ryder hasn't done much. What is exactly the point of having a tag team page (this one) and a Ryder page? It would be duplicate except for a paragraph or so. He's been in singles for a while now but hasn't done much. Winning a title shot is a start, but there is no guarantee it will instantly make him a notable singles star. You mentioned the Dudleys: they were both in singles for a while in WWE. Bubba Ray was part of the hardcore division, while D-Von was doing a reverend gimmick. Ryder is just a tag team star that is now a singles star with one title shot, that doesn't justify anything at this point. Lastly, there is no excuse for attacks PERIOD. We get your point, it's been posted numerous times by others. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't assume you know other editors. I'm not a kid, I'm a mid-20s (when did that happen?) university graduate which doesn't make my opinion more or less relevent than anybody elses but what does is my point. And my point is that Ryder has done little of note to warrant a split, sure he deserves a page but look he has one and it's here. The split section is only so big because people keep editing it in a bid to make his singles career look impressive than it is and I for one have acquiesced to that as a compromise but if you look at most other's articles and you won't find a list off of six or seven wrestlers he faced once or twice. Take out that line and the only difference between the proposed article would be 4 lines which are mostly about his appearance and his catchphrases which he used while in the tag team. He's done one notable thing since joining the roster, andd that's earn contendership for the ECW title but even in a short 3 week gap between PPVs he still didn't make it on the card, he was obvious filler to prolong the Regal feud. And just recently I submitted an argument to merger both members of Team 3D into one, incidentally. Tony2Times (talk) 23:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tony. And I'm not a kid either, I'm an 18 year old senior in high school. Quit making assumptions. I also remember, that Daniels' Suicide career is mentioned now, and we even have an article about the character. It is content forking, easy as that. Ryder does not need a solo article at the moment.--WillC 03:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, with all of these illogical arguments on why Ryder shouldn't have his own page, I pose one question: What DOES Ryder have to do to get his own page?

Something notable on his own. Facing a different person each week isn't notable. If you'll notice on any decent page (not every Wiki article is up to scratch), it will only note a match if the match is noteworthy, if the wrestler has a feud, is on a PPV, wins a chamionship or takes part in a lengthy or succesful storyline. Hawkins and/or Ryder have done none of these things. Als, please sign your posts with four ~s. Tony2Times (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

He's been in fueds with Evan Bourne and Shelton Benjamin. Curtis (talk) 20:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

He had one match with Bourne, that's not a feud. His singing contest with Benjamin wasn't particularly notable beyond its minor mention here. Tony2Times (talk) 21:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Face it guys, he is not notable on his own. This page is really long, I'm planning on archiving the entire thing soon. Just for everyone to know.--WillC 22:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Think of the children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curtis23 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

What? Screw the children, they probably couldn't spell Zack Ryder in the first place, looking at today's education system. Also, quit edit warring at Zack Ryder. If you undo one more edit on that page in the next 24 hours, I will be forced to ask for you to be blocked from editing for violating the 3 revert rule.--WillC 21:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm always thinking of the children ;) Tony2Times (talk) 21:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

That just sounded werid and wrong. Also, the warning goes for you too Tony.--WillC 21:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You should stop Will aren't you 18-year old high school senior. --Curtis23 (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, so? It is clear he isn't notable enough for an individual article.--WillC 22:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Prove it.--Curtis23 (talk) 22:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If you'll read my posts I've 'proved it' as much as any opinion can be proved. Meanwhile you've fabricated support from other uses in lieu of proving your point. Tony2Times (talk) 23:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Why do you all just let Zack get a page he's been on ECW for months now he's been a number 1 contender for the ECW Championship he's had a few big main event matches (against Christian twice and the 8-man tag match) and he's been in a fued with Shelton Benjamin just let him get a page.--Curtis23 (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

You are new, so I'm going to let the edits you made to this page last night slide, but notability is not oh wow, he got a match for a title. Funaki got a world title match on SD at one point, should we list him as a former main eventer? That would be content forking. This page at the moment is fine. He has been in a tag team most of his career. If we were to give him a page, then we would give Hawkins a page and this one would be useless. But both of those pages could be merged back together because they have identical careers. So it would be content forking as well, since the pages can easily fit into another without causing a problem. Ryder is simply not notable enough for an individual page, and won't be until there is enough information to suggest a page of his own would not be content forking.--WillC 19:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Why should Tyler Reks get his own page? Hes only new and hasn't held any championships ye he has his OWN page why shouldn't he be listed with ECW or something? Atleast Ryders had success in Tag Team and is getting a push in Singles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.142.63 (talk) 07:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

He passes guidelines for a notable person. Ryder has a page, it is merged with Curt Hawkins in a tag team. He isn't getting a push, he is just being used. A push would be winning a title and more tv time. The ECW roster is so small, they use whoever.--WillC 07:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Curt Hawkins is in FCW now and is still inactive but there is something that you could write about him.--Curtis23 (talk) 21:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

What?--WillC 01:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

How is Tyler Reks a notable person? Last time I checked he hasn't won any championships in WWE, unlike Zack Ryder and is basically a jobber. And this doesn't count as a superstar's page as it is about more than one wrestler, which means its about the stable or tag team of Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder. I vote for the article to be kept but Hawkins and Ryder have seperate pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Devilfreak12 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

He passes guidelines. Titles is not what defines notability, reliable third party references do. You're right it doesn't count as a superstar page, because we don't have those. We have bio articles. This is an encyclopedia, not the WWEpedia. Ryder has a page, just merged with Hawkins. It would be content forking for them to get seperate pages, and to keep this one. A split can not be made due to guidelines.--WillC 03:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

It almost seems as if the constant refusal to split this page is based more on people not wanting to give Hawkins his own little stub page rather than denying Ryder's new singles success. Ryder is currently one of the most popular performers on ECW.. He's being given a legit push, and has been in a handful of what the WWE considers to be feuds since the team's split. He does deserve his own page. It's too bad people can't agree on a way to deal with the Hawkins section of content. I don't know why people are so hell-bent on refusing a split when we have cruddy stubs on people like Sal E. Graziano laying around that should frankly be merged into Full Blooded Italians, or Rodney Leinhardt which should simply be merged into The Mean Street Posse. By the standards you give, neither Brother Devon or Brother Ray should have their own pages as they have never done anything of note outside of Team 3D. Same goes for all 3 ex-members of La Résistance, or both of the Basham Brothers, The Bushwhackers, The Road Warriors, The Headbangers, or many others.Matt Anoa'i only qualifies because he got a tag title run with The Hurricane, otherwise he and Eddie Fatu would still be merged into a single 3-Minute Warning page despite Eddie's massive success as Umaga. I fully expect someone to come in and counter with a bunch of jargon that will defy any and all logical basis. The fact is this: unless Ryder completely screws himself up, he's here to stay as a viable WWE superstar whereas we will probably never see Curt Hawkins again on television for any major company. This page should be converted to Zack Ryder and Hawkins should be split off into a page similar to the ones for the ex-MSP members. --Miikro (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I see no proof that Ryder is one of the most popular in ECW now. Your personal opinion isn't how articles are made. Also, all of the names you mentioned pass notability guidelines and have decent sourcing. Ryder has nothing of the sort. I think people need to stop coming here if they are just going to post the same thing that's been posted many other times. Simply put: Ryder will get a page once the time is right. Until then: settle down and stop being so angry about it. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:24, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

It's as if you want to prove Will right about people thinking this is WWEpedia, Miikro. René Dupree from La Resistence deserves his own page because after leaving the group he's wrestled 3 or so tours for Hustle as well as appearing in AJPW, wrestled in and won titles in AWR, been a mainstay of All-Star for quite a while. Just because he wasn't in WWE, doesn't mean his career ended. Sylvian Grenier has won two titles in another company and has been in ROH among other companies, Conway has wrestled for the NWA, ECWA and MCW &c. Road Warrior Animal. Eddie Fatu would never be merged into 3 Minute Warning as he spent so much time in Frontier Martial Arts, did Japan tours is set to Australia while Matt... I mean just go to his page and look at all the belts he's won in a number of different countries.

Hawkins spent some time in the ring before WWE. With Ryder. They've been tagging together since 3 or 4 matches into their respective careers and stayed that way from 2004-2009. 5 years. Whichever one it is on ECW right now has had a barely recognisable feud with Shelton Benjamin over who could sing better and now is entering into a programme that seems to be more about buffering Regal from Christian than anything. Having a series of one-off matches with about 10 people doesn't constitute any sort of feud. Tony2Times (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Sheesh (sorry I use that word a lot) Zack Ryder has had a shot at the ECW Title he's been in a few fueds and is in one right now with Christian, William Regal, Vladimir Kozlov, and Ezekial Jackson I mean you could probably fill up 2,3 or even more paragraphs in ECW I mean he's been in a lot of main events and might get another shot at the ECW Title so give him his own page we have enough to write a lot of stuff about Ryder.--Curtis23 (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You could fill up 2 or 3 paragraphs about it, but we've filled up about 20 paragraphs here and in both cases its hardly riveting reading. You'd have to detail pretty much every televised match he's had since going solo to make it 3 paragraphs and that's not how an encyclopedia is written. Go to Pro Wrestling Wikia if you wanna list off every match he's been in. Tony2Times (talk) 22:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Gosh (and that) it's not going to list all his matches.--Curtis23 (talk) 22:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)