Talk:Croatian War of Independence

International courts on claims of aggression

The article states: “The prevailing view in Croatia and of most international law experts, including both international courts ICTY and ICJ, is that the war was an international conflict, between the rump Yugoslavia and Serbia against Croatia,” Yet as far as I know, neither court made a determination of aggression. Regarding the ICJ verdict, the Croatian international law expert, Prof. Mirjan Damaska, stated: ”I could not, unfortunately, agree with the claim that it is clear from the [ICJ] verdict who the aggressor was…An attack on Croatia can be interpreted as an attack by a state on a state or an attack by one component of a federal state on another…If at the time when serious crimes were committed in Croatia, the SFRY still existed, then in the legal sense, one cannot speak of aggression as an attack by a state on a state...The International Court of Justice is of the opinion that Serbia (FRY) was formed at the end of April 1992. According to the judges, the SFRY still existed after the military campaign in Croatia and even after the fall of Vukovar”.

Thus this sounds like the definition of a civil war (e.g. like the American Civil War), contrary to the ICTY final judgement in the case vs. Dario Kordic et al, where the court specifically found that Croatia sent its troops into Bosnia, thus making it an international conflict, or the closest thing to a state-on-state aggression. Can anyone provide quotes from ICTY or ICJ final judgements (NOT prosecutorial claims), where either the ICTY or ICJ determined the war in Croatia to be an aggression? Thhhommmasss (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

https://www.ifimes.org/en/print/9487#_ftn2 Tamerlanahayav (talk) 22:56, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

In more simple terms we can say that in a series of judgements ICTY established the aggression of SRJ (Serbia) and the Republic of Croatia against Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the aggression of Serbia against Croatia based on their plans to create the Greater Serbia and the Greater Croatia.[2] The conclusions of ICTY judgements are based on evidence showing direct and indirect interference of SRJ (Serbia) and the Republic of Croatia in Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the interference of SRJ (Serbia) in Croatia.In the judgements it was proven that the Greater Serbia and Greater Croatia plans represented the bases for the politics of committing crimes...The list of judgements with the related paragraphs, including the interim judgement against Slobodan Milošević: ICTY, The Prosecutor v. Duško Tadić, IT-94-1, par. 97,156,160,162,569,606,660. Tamerlanahayav (talk) 22:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Like I said I was not aware of these, will have to take a look. I know that in the final Dario Kordic judgement, the ICTY reiterated that with the aim of creating a Greater Croatia, Croatia perpetrated an international armed conflict, i.e. in your words Croatia committed aggression against Bosnia, and in the later trial against Prljak et al determined that this was part of joint criminal enterprise along with other crimes committed by Croat forces in Bosnia. They specifically mention the HDZ, HDZ Bih and Tudjman hundreds of times in these verdicts as being primarily responsible for same Thhhommmasss (talk)

References

Weak lines

1. "It is estimated that between 50,000 and 200,000 people deserted from the Milošević-controlled Yugoslav People's Army during wars, while between 100,000 and 150,000 people emigrated from Serbia refusing to participate in the war"

Both sources for this line are based on heresay. And if the numbers were true, they still aren't defined enough.Who deserted from the JNA? croats,serbs, montenegrins, albanians, slovenians, etc.?! How many of each deserted in what numbers?! One possibility is that all those (or maybe 99%) that deserted are from countries that got attacked by serbia (which explains why they deserted), second possibility is that all those that deserted are serbian, there simply no way to know from those two sources. A detailed source would fit great here, but these two are incomplete.

Here is a better known source, Radio Free Europe, where the numbers mentioned are in reference to Serbia:"Sociologist Janja Bec recently proposed in Novi Sad that a monument be erected to deserters from the 1990s, of which there were many in Serbia, and about whom there is silence to this day. From the battlefields, as a sign of protest and rebellion, as it is estimated, about 40 thousand mobilized soldiers returned, and between 100 and 200 thousand avoided going to the battlefields in various ways."Thhhommmasss (talk)

2. "By late December 1991, just over a month after victory had been proclaimed in Vukovar, opinion polls found that 64% of Serbian people wanted to end the war immediately and only 27% were willing for it to continue"

Offers no sense of scale. How many serbian people were questioned?? 10? 100? 1000?

Sign your TP posts with four tildas ( ~ ~ ~ ~ ). 50.111.61.101 (talk) 11:21, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you first point, it would be good to add details. Regarding the second one, if the source is generally reliable, then we can cite it even if they don't provide the sample size. Do you have reasons to doubt Cigar's reliability? Alaexis_¿question? 18:53, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The cited source is a book published by the UK's Routledge Press, a highly reputable academic publisher, and the author, Norman Cigar, is a former professor at the US Marine Corps University, and a widely published author on military and war matters, including the 90's wars in fromer Yugoslavia Thus the citation certainly meets WP's Reliable Source standards. Unless you can cite a Reliable Source with some differing views on this specific matter, it is not up to anonymous non-experts to second guess and question such expert citations with zero evidence Thhhommmasss (talk) 04:00, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Croatian War of Independance - Wrong name and wrong facts - It was Croatian session war from Yugoslavia

1. Croats were not fighting for independence. Croats were constituent part of the Yugoslavia. There were not colonized by Yugoslavia. This is so inaccurate and so incompetent. It would be as if Swiss German separation from Switzerland would be called "War of Independance". Egypt could have fought such a war against British Empire, but Croatia who even dominated the country if you count number of presidents and length of their rule of that SFRY and prime ministers and other leading roles in that country, that is nonsense. 2. This war was mainly rebellion of Serbian population in Croatia that reject forceful secession from Yugoslavia they wanted to stay in, unlike Croats who wanted to leave. As if Flemish lands with Brussels would want to separate from Belgium and Wallonia Belgians in Brussels rebel because they do not want to be separated. Majority of soldiers who fought and died in that conflict where Serbs from Croatia. Likewise, even volunteers who came to help them from Serbia, in majority were ethnic Serbs who were from Croatia and who either moved to Serbia as adults or during their childhood with their parents. Some even born to such a parent in Serbia, yet still having plenty of close relatives in Croatia. Many went back to Croatia to help their parents and relatives, to fight for houses of their birth or grandparents, not to be separated from them. It can easily be verified. In last and major operation by Croatian Army, where majority of Serb controlled territories were reclaimed by Croatian state, neither FRY (Serbia) nor Republika Srpska participated (on Croatian soil). They were threatened by NATO, which armed and trained Croatian forces (plenty of evidence of retired US military providing services) and initiated this last operation by bombing Serbs in Serbian Authonomous Region of Kraina and Republika Srpska 3. Accordingly, and clearly, third belligerent in that war was NATO, yet it is not stated here. This war was fully decided by NATO and its power, according to its will and not by parties on the field. Even in your Wikipedia pages there is clear description of situation before that last and major operation "Storm" which in majority ended Serb autonomous province o Kraina. Not to mention that they could not even hide NATO involvement by naming this military operation with some original name, for it very much sounds like "Desert Storm" in Iraq that happened 4 years before. In that description on Wikipedia pages, it can clearly be seen that Serbs were outnumbered 3:1, that they were significantly less armed (tanks, airplanes, artillery...) and that neither Serbia (FRY - Serbia & Montenegro) nor Republika Srpska could help, without facing NATO bombing and retaliations if they do. According to your own pages, let alone what facts are, it's so easy to conclude that this is language of propaganda instead of facts that you yourself found accurate and published. Finally, Bosnian (Bosnyak) army was not ally of Croatia, but opportunistic partner on few occasions and fiery enemy most of the time. Croats were fighting mercilessly Bosnian (should be Bosnyak) army in Bosnia. In operation Storm, Bosnyak army was not taking part in claiming territories in Croatia for Croats as ally would do, but taking territories in Bosnia and Hercegovina for themselves, based on pure opportunism i.e. scavenging of pinned Serbs. Wikipedia should stand for integrity, yet it never does. It is repeater of propaganda narratives. If not, please point exactly one statement here that is inaccurate, and I will gladly provide you proofs on your Wikipedia pages. End result of that "War for Independence" was genocidal ethnic cleansing of Serbs and Yugoslavs from Croatia, who reduced from being more than 700.000 to less then 185.000 in those 4 years. Just in the last operation of Croatian Army supported by NATO, operation "Storm", close to 250.000 of that TOTAL number were expelled from their homes in just several days. 28 years later, and these people still have not returned to their homes. They got liberated from their homes, from their farms and their lives. This "Independence" seems to be fact according to Red Cross and UN stats and data available today. Also available on your Wikipedia pages. This is also very well documented from clear testimonies of these expelled people, who are still alive and still available to talk and state it. Problem is that no one want to hear them. They are told what happened to them, instead of being listened. Still after that many years, almost all of them in one voice are claiming that Crotian government and state expelled them from their homes. To extent, they do blame incompetence and weakness of Serb leadership, but finger of guilt for their status points clearly to Croatia and its governments since incident till today. 28 years later, Milosevic is out of power for 23 years, but they are still not back, and they are told Milosevic is to be blamed. Maybe he is to be blamed for his own misdeeds towards them, but he is not cause for sure, for he is gone long ago, and they do not go back because of the very same reason they rebelled for against Croatian state and forced separation. All documented and at display even today and everyone can see that even today as those remaining Serbs in Croatia are leaving country in multiple times higher rate to their total number then Croatians are doing. Way more than economic motive. If you ask them, most of them would say that "Serbs cannot have life in Croatia". Statistics from Croatian government on population change in last 10 years are clearly available on this Wikipedia pages and can easily be verified if there is desire to do so. But there is not. Why? Who can be guilty then? On this Wikipedia pages, neutral observer can verify that number of Serbs in Croatia start rapidly declining after 1970's way before the war started. There are also testimonies from that time, that Serbs in federal unit of Croatia start experiencing discrimination in way milder form though then in 1990s. How one explains this sudden exodus, before war even started and many years before it, that can easily be observed on Wikipedia Demography page for Croatia. Again, Wikipedia own pages contain the evidence, but no one cares. Guess, country holding them from coming back with discriminatory policies started way before year 1991 but culminated then and related to those from 1941 and before. Again, easy to verify if anyone cares for available testimonies of these people. Should victims know better than politicians, trustful media, NATO spokesmen, Croatian historians. These people are still alive, and they can be heard. But those creating narrative do not want them to talk. Never they got invited to talk on Western media, western parliaments or even staged UN events. They get sometimes cherrypicked if they are to follow the narrative but even that almost never happens. And numbers are here on these Wiki pages. Numbers that ask questions, logical questions: Why those people left and are not coming back? Would anyone leave his/her house and never come back just because someone who is long dead who lost power long ago, who even got scrutinized, once long, long ago told them so? And they still listen to him?! Or rather they I still afraid of something that is imprinted in them for decades through experiences they had, and they still have if they try to go back. Instead, we are reading WIKI propaganda articles on how someone would like facts to be, incoherent with numbers and math, and of all science, math is the only never proved to be wrong. One should not be surprised that some nations are fighting for freedom, but others doing the same are separatists and terrorists. Depending on geopolitical interests we know from history. Simply put, if Croatians in Yugoslavia have fought for their Freedom, what Serbs in Croatia were fighting for? If Croatians had right of secession from Yugoslavia as right of one nation to be free, what Serbs who now found themselves in Croatia out of Yugoslavia by Croatian desire, what rights on freedom they had? Do they have right to be free on lands they lived for centuries, that were even recognized as entity within Austro-Hungarian Empire and Austrian Empire as Military Frontier with its local administration. Especially considering that in newly defined independent Croatian country they lost major constitutional rights that they had in Yugoslavia and Federal unit of Croatia that was part of it. They also lost rights they had in Austrian empire and Austro-Hungarian empire. They lost certain rights that they had for centuries and some that they had for half of a century in one day. What rights such a people have? Again, logical and clear question historians, scientists, or wikimasters providing "neutral facts" should ask themselves 2601:600:9A80:3530:7473:70D3:BD:E9FD (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@StephenMacky1 - If someone put you argument for every statement made and reference to even Wikipedia sources you cannot call it rant. Facts you do not like are not rant. Your inability not to see inconsistence with WIKIPEDIA information should not give you censorship rights, but that is WIKIPEDIA unfortunately. Please let me know what is the info that you need. Here are exact material proofs from Wikipedia and "trusted media":

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Croatia

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

Strength

Croatia: 130,000 soldiers

ARBiH: 3,000 soldiers

ARSK: 27,000–34,000 men

Western Bosnia: 4,000–5,000 men

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat%E2%80%93Bosniak_War

4. https://www.dw.com/hr/srbija-objavila-imena-poginulih-u-ratovima/a-15025760 Here it Cleary state that 850 citizens of Serbia died in Croatia. This includes also Croats from Serbia that participated on Croatian side. In this article about War in Croatia 7200-8100 Serbs were killed. Thus, around 11-13% of causalities were from Serbia, and most of them were from Croatian origin, Serbs who were from Croatia as stated in my article below.

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_intervention_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm - Talks about NATO engagement before and around the operation. Serbs were bombed in multiple occasions during and after the war including Serbia itself. It clearly shows consistency and what site NATO was standing.

7. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-14-mn-37825-story.html - List US contractors used to train Croatian Army

8. Cautiously, Clinton Backs Croats' Goals - The New York Times (nytimes.com) 2601:600:9A80:3530:7473:70D3:BD:E9FD (talk) 00:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)