Talk:Cro-Mags

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Opinion vs fact

I thought the idea of Wikipedia was factual, unbiased information. Whoever wrote the article on Cro-Mags stated his opinion as fact saying their latest album "almost made up for their previous two releases." This expresses a subjective statement about the previous two albums as being indadequate. I personally thought Alpha Omega was a great album, and their only album worth anything. But my opinion is not important either. Stick facts, not opinion people. 23:59, January 26, 2006. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.67 (talk • contribs)

I whole heartly agree with you and some points, although to me the quintessential Cro-Mags album would have to be Age of Quarrel hands down..That's NYC Hardcore at its best. Without Bloodclot the band went downhill. Also, Live At Wellingtons, Winnipeg 1986 is a fine display of John's vocals and the way the bands worked together is amazing. 21:39, July 6, 2006. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8318 (talk • contribs)

Update

The article should be updated, because Cro-Mags exists once again. I've been on their concert one week ago. Xskuzz0r (talk) 14:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Influences

• Flanagan, Harley. "The Oral History of NYC's Metal/Hardcore Crossover". The Village Voice (Interview). Interviewed by Katherine Turman and Jon Wiederhorn. Josh Fromson. If it were not for Venom and Motörhead, the Cro-Mags would not have sounded the way we did. I was hanging out with violent skinheads with crazy pentagrams and swastikas tattooed all over them, listening to Venom and Discharge, huffing glue, trying to invoke demons.

Article is somewhat promotional of Turman/Wiederhorn's new book. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

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01JohnWright10's edit concerning John Joseph dates

Hello John, concerning your edit where you state "John Joseph did not sing for the Cro-Mags in 1981. He started singing after Eric Casanova left the band. This has been confirmed by every early member of the band in many interviews." It sounds correct, but do you have any written sources to back this up? Wikipedia articles are based upon Reliable Sources and these must be documented. Thanks. – ░▒▓ №∶72.234.220.38 (talk) 02:07, 29 June 2020 (UTC) ▓▒░

Harley Flanagan or team editing this page

On 15 April 2023 someone, who I believe is either Harley Flanagan or somebody working for him, has edited this page, changing the band history with unsubstantiated claims, mistakes, and obviously biased twisting of a fairly well documented history. Most modifications have to do with framing Flanagan as the sole founder, almost sole writer, only driving force of the Cro-Mags. All of this has been refuted over and over again by previous members of the band – that's not an opinion, that's a fact. It's one thing to write "The band was formed in 1981 by Flanagan", it's another to present sources to prove it. What makes all this really incoherent is that the liner notes for the Flanagan-produced and approved Cro-Mags release "Before the Quarrel" from 2000 describes in great detail the band as being formed by Flanagan and Parris Mayhew. It describes their meeting, their early rehearsals, and even specify that Mayhew wrote the music to "World Peace", the "first Cro-Mags song" and the template for the "Cro-Mags' sound". Other modifications have to do with Cro-Mags current activities, detailing ongoing tours in a clearly promotional manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tranche Blanche (talk • contribs) 15:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Flanagan or/and his team (zealous fans perhaps) messing with this page, this little game is annoying and there is plenty of evidence/references on this page to prove that his side of the story cannot be taken as the only truth out there. He was not even consistent with his own account of the biography of the band throughout the years. The page is now pretty balanced and neutral – Flanagan's ego-driven revisionist campaign on Wikipedia has to stop. Tranche Blanche (talk) 16:03, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Let's make it clear that both Mayhew and Flanagan are founding members. I rewrote some of the text saying that Flanagan's various stories conflict with each other. Mayhew's story is solid. Binksternet (talk) 16:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Both Flanagan and John Joseph said Mayhem wasn't a founding member and that Dave Stein was the band's founding guitarist. Obviously there's conflict and everything but I personally think (based on the different stories and how they overlap) is that there was the Disco Smoothy lineup which he wanted to call the Cro-Mags, that lineup only played once then disbanded. Then Flanagan started recording his demos which would become Cro-Mags songs and reformed as the Cro-Mags with Mayhew. That's the chain of events Joseph and Flanagan said in Joseph's autobiography and Flanagan's interview with Blabbermouth. Flanagan's autobiography skipped over the Disco Smoothy part because it was short lived and only played once, so didn't seem relevant and totally attached to the band, so started at the demos. Mayhew's story then started when he joined. All of that is supported, it can just be explained with them being different perspectives. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts!

I would like to point to this release: https://www.discogs.com/release/1808660-Cro-Mags-Before-The-Quarrel

It was released in 2000 and produced by Flanagan AND Mayhew, at the time of "Revenge" album, for which they collaborated again, after years of fighting.

The liner notes are probably co-written by Flanagan AND Mayhew, at least approved by them.

I think it's probably the closest we'll find to what really happened and that is why I'm pasting them below in text form. I believe we should base the early biography on the Wiki page on those notes, they seem more truthful than subsequent accounts.

It clearly states that the band was formed by Flanagan AND Mayhew.

What do you think?

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Before the Quarrel

In the Year 2000, Cro-Mags have become an urban legend. Their story told and retold, twisted and warped until it Is unrecognizable. But now to set the record straight, this is how it all began. Before the Quarrel. Picture this, the year 1980, it's sunrise on NYC's lower east side. Ave. A is a barren urban wasteland, empty storefronts in abandoned buildings. The streets are littered with junkies and freaks. Heroin and cocaine are the only flourishing businesses and the only sign of life in this ghost town are the local gangs and 40 or SO kids in front of A 7 (hardcore club) where Urban Waste is still on stage. Little Chris, age 11, and Eric Casanova, age 12, sit on the curb still tripping from the night before, with no money, no hope and no future, just drive and dried blood on their clothes from a night they've already forgotten. This was hardcore and the streets were ours. Across Tompkins Sq. Park Parris Mayhew and Harley Flanagan are sitting in the back booth of the Park Inn Tavern (afterhours) pounding pitchers of beer and shots of Jack, planning their new band. Nothing unusual, except that Paris was 16 years old and Harley was 14 and their band was to change the hardcore scene forever. In the bar, Harley is recounting to Paris the details of a robbery he and Paul Dordal had perpetrated earlier that day. As Paris sits listening and looking into Harley's drunk, drugged and crazed eyes that seem to pierce the darkness. Parris thinks What am I getting myself into?". That was really the beginning. There was no blue. print for hardcore, no one to teach them how, they were all just kids living their lives, making it up as they went along, inventing hardcore with every step they took. Harley was a 6th grade dropout, though at age 14 was already a veteran musician, child star of the punk scene. America's first skinhead and the notorious former drummer of NYC's premier punk band The Stimulators lin the "Stims" Harley brought a powerful youthful presence to an aging punk scene. He kicked the doors wide open for other kids his age to come on the scene and follow his example to be a youthful creative force like the "Beastie Boys* and Jill and Gabby of "Luscious Jackson". Adam Yauch was at one point considered to play bass with Cro-Mags, but was about to attend Bard College. Harley left the stims to create a harder, more aggressive style of music, capturing the true hardcore lifestyle. Depicting the violence, poverty and urban decay of the streets of the lower east side in the early 80's. Harley's personal influence and mere presence on the scene defined the transition between the old punk scene and the new hardcore scene. Paris, a 16-year-old unknown musician and an art student attending the High School of Art & Design was forever changed by the sounds of the Sex Pistols and Motörhead. Then drawn into the local NYC punk scene by the Stimulators and Bad Brains, Paris joined punk icons "The Mad", playing bass. But soon left the band setting his sights on starting his own band, playing his music. Paul Dordal recommended Harley and Paris team up. They had their first am at Harley's aunt Denise's apartment on Avenue A. Denise was the guitarist of the Stimulators. Parris played the riffs that were to become (with Harley's lyrics), the first Cro-Mags song "World Peace" and the template for the Cro-Mags sound. After a few minutes of playing, Denise turned to Harley and said "Where did you find this kid?". But Harley was way ahead of her. He immediately recognized similarities in Parris' approach to his own that were uncanny. A musical mirror image. These two kids couldn't have been more different, but their songs seemed to belong together as if they came from the same source. How could two kids from such different worlds create such a similarly Cro-Mag-Nonimous sound. That was the beginning of a lifelong musical collaboration that is as formidable today with their new CD "Revenge" as it was when they first met. So, Harley and Paris began hanging out, planning, writing songs and doing a lot of drinking. They became friends fast, but finding other musicians was difficult, so in the interim Harley played drums with Murphy's Law, helped them write their first album and even came up with their name. Harley was eventually replaced by future Cro-Mags drummer Pete Hines who left Murphy's Law and joined Cro-Mags to support the "Age of Quarrel" LP and to later record the "Best Wishes" LP. But Harley grew impatient and hitchhiked across the country to California. With no money and nowhere to stay Harley just lived day to day, hand to mouth, sampling the California punk scene and definitely gave them a taste of what NYC was about to unleash. Harley the teenage tattooed terror created notoriety everywhere he went, fighting, fucking and consuming mass quantities of drugs and alcohol along the way and he was still only 15 years old. In San Francisco, Harley lived in an abandoned brewery called the "Vats, the home of many; San Francisco punks. Then he hitched back East and North to Canada. He ran with skinheads there, basically wrecking havoc everywhere he went, building on his already formidable reputation. These times and Harley's life in NYC, living in those burnt-out buildings, squats and on the streets, was the life that would be the true inspiration behind the Cro-Mags lyrics. Raw, honest truth, a lifestyle that pulled no punches in the urban decay that was the early 80's untamed streets, where violence, gangs and drugs were a way of life and music would be the only escape for this teenage rebel. He not only lived the truly hardcore way of life, he set the standard and created a legend that still lives. Harley then returned to NYC with a renewed fire to pick up where he and Parris had left off, and a tattoo covering his chest of the devil grabbing the earth. During this long foundation period Paris continued to pound out riffs and songs like "Malfunction". He also completed high school and two years of college at the School of Visual Arts Film School. Parris would eventually put these skills to work directing the Cro-Mags video "We Gotta Know" and many others such as Onyx's "Slam" and Type O Negative's "Black # 1". But Parris never lost sight of his plan for him and Harley to create the band that would become synonymous with hardcore. Soon after Harley's return to NYC he was given the opportunity to record 4 songs of his own in which he played all the instruments. These recordings were never released but are soon to be on Cro-Mag recordings. Harley also played drums in a band called Mode of Ignorance (M.O.I) with future Cro-Mags' John Bloodclot and Doug Holland which faded as Cro-Mags began to take shape. Harley turned down offers to drum for the Misfits and during the first of HR's solo ventures Bad Brains management approached Harley to front Bad Brains but Harley passed because finally after 3 years of writing, drinking and generally causing chaos, the search for musicians for the lineup of "NYC's Hardest Band" was complete. It is a little-known fact that John Joseph was not a founding member of Cro-Mags or even the original singer. He was not! In 1984, 15-year-old Eric Casanova became the first singer of the Cro-Mags and co-wrote, with Harley, classic Cro-Mag lyrics such as "Hard Times", "Street Justice", "Survival of The Streets" and Eric's own "Life of My Own". Based on the lives they led. With the hired services of Mackie on Drums, the Cro-Mags played their first gig at CBGB's with Government Issue. A highly anticipated gig being Harley Flanagan's new band. Then after their second show, for personal reasons Eric left the band and began a revolving door of musicians that Paris and Harley watched come and go for the entire life of their musical partnership. But Eric's contribution to the Cro-Mags in that short time is undeniable, those first songs were the foundation that defined the Cro-Mags' sound and lyrical content and those first shows made a tremendous impact. The punk scene was shaken by the force of the Cro-Mags and the momentum was unstoppable. Next the band recruited John Bloodclot (age 21) on vocals to replace Erie, and after only two shows began headlining gigs. Overnight Cro-Mags had dominated the hardcore scene in NYC. As Kabula of Agnostic Front said "We've toured everywhere and nobody's doin what the Cro-Mags are doin', it's totally new". The transition between Eric and John was seamless. John's lyrics fit perfectly with Harley and Eric's and John brought a dynamic presence to the frontman position that helped to define the image of the band. Though John's presence in the band ultimately was the undoing of the Cro-Mags. So with 3 years of writing, a solid foundation of songs already in the band's repertoire, along with music from Harley's never released solo recording including "Don't tread on me", the Cro-Mags needed only a few more songs to complete the now classic set list. Those songs were completed with John Joseph and on November 2 1984 and February 16 1985 the Cro-Mags went into High Five Studios and recorded 12 songs. That moment in time when four very different freaks got together to make music was historic. The recordings made in that session were simply the blueprint for all hardcore that followed and set the stage for the definitive hardcore album of all time "The Age of Quarrel". This CD, now poignantly titled "Before the Quarrel" captured the raw fire that circumstance had created by bringing this unlikely group together. These recordings are revered as the pinnacle moment of the Cro-Mags and the favorite recordings of Cro-Mags fans. Harley, Parris, John and Mackie not only made their mark deep in the history of hard music but made a sound that changed it forever. Obviously, God didn't bring these guys together to be friends, it was to make hardcore music. The now infamously volatile relationship between these four people turned ugly in the end but not one of them could look back at these recordings with anything but pride. No words could ever fully describe that time especially not now, so many years later, so many clone bands come and gone. But this music and these words were N.YH.C. at its best, honest, aggressive and true. This CD captured it, the lifestyle that many talk about, but few ever really lived.

The Cro-Mags's "Before the Quarrel" was the beginning, the genuine article and this recording is the proof.

They were truly Cro-Mag-nonimous!

To be continued... Tranche Blanche (talk) 13:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I saw that one when I wrote up the version of the history section we have now. The reason I didn't include it was because it seems to be the same story that Joseph tells in his auto-biography and Flanagan does in the Blabbermouth interview, just in that case it ignores the Disco Smoothy part so starts a little later. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok!

My view is that if Flanagan and Mayhew once approved a biography that writes: "Mayhew and Harley Flanagan are sitting in the back booth of the Park Inn Tavern (afterhours) pounding pitchers of beer and shots of Jack, planning their new band (...) Paul Dordal recommended Harley and Paris team up. They had their first jam at Harley's aunt Denise's apartment on Avenue A. Parris (Mayhew) played the riffs that were to become (with Harley's lyrics), the first Cro-Mags song "World Peace" and the template for the Cro-Mags sound.", then there is simply no doubt that this is the real beginning of the Cro-Mags and that both Flanagan and Mayhew are founding members of the band. Any other retelling of the Cro-Mags origin story by Flanagan is suspicious as he was openly fighting with all other members and it always involves himself being the "only founding member", the "main composer", the "sole owner of the CM name", etc. That's why I think Disco Smoothy story has no substance to it: the band played as Disco Smoothy and we don't know if they played any track that ended being used by the Cro-Mags. So different name, different songs, the only reference here is Flanagan telling decades later that it was actually the first Cro-Mags line-up.

Flanagan has an history of aggressively crediting himself with all sorts of pioneering triumphs, to the point that everything he will say feels doubtful. It's a bit sad because he IS actually a pioneer, but he probably feels that he deserves way more recognition and respect (love). Just take a look at the liner notes above: "There was no blueprint for hardcore, no one to teach them how, they were all just kids living their lives, making it up as they went along, inventing hardcore with every step they took. Harley was a 6th grade dropout, though at age 14 was already a veteran musician, child star of the punk scene. America's first skinhead." Sure, hardcore was born in complete vacuum and these guys "invented" it. Also punk never existed and yeah, of course, Flanagan was America's first skinhead because he was.

Finally, why should be trust John Joseph saying that Mayhew wasn't a founding member? He just wasn't singing with the band at that point. Tranche Blanche (talk) 12:25, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't have the book anymore but in NYHC: New York Hardcore 1980-1990 I remember distinctly that Mayhew says Joseph was a founding member but moved to Puerto Rico so got replaced by Eric Casanova and that it's support by a few other people in the scene. I haven't been able to find a copy of the book online since I got rid of mine but I wrote the citations in the body when I had the book (wish I would have written the quote in the cite), so if anyone can get access to it, it should around about pages 211-213. Along the same lines of your final point: why would Mayhew make up that Joseph was a founding member? I don't think they were ever on the same side of any court battles. Even without that info, I think the fact that both Joseph and Flanagan attest to the Disco Smoothy story gives it weight, especially because Joseph told the story first, about a decade before Flanagan did, so that can't be Joseph twisting the story to also give himself more credit. Issan Sumisu (talk) 13:39, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

"Cro-Mags are" vs. "Cro-Mags is"

Hey User:FMSky, what's with you changing the lead from "Cro-Mags are" to "Cro-Mags is"? Please explain. 12.18.188.162 (talk) 18:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Cause thats the standard in American English. "Are" is only used for British bands --FMSky (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

So? Not every American band ending with the letter "s" - with or without the "the" part - is treated as a singular noun (e.g. The Doors, Eagles, Ramones, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Dead Kennedys, The Smashing Pumpkins, The Cars), on Wikipedia at least. Does that mean the lead to either of those band articles should be changed from "are/were" to "is/was" too? Other the hand, I disagree that "Cro-Mags is" is correct. 12.18.188.162 (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2024 (UTC)