Talk:Chris Heaton-Harris

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External links modified

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McCarthyite

It wasn't David Green who described the notorious letter as McCarthyite, it was Professor Kevin Featherstone of the LSE.

StephenJPC (talk) 13:00, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

StephenJPC Thanks for spotting that! AusLondonder (talk) 23:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Alma mater?

I've removed the link to Leicester Conservative Association, which was being used as a footnote to support the claim regarding Heaton-Harris attending Wolves Poly, as it had an access date of 9 years ago and no longer works. While I don't doubt this is where he studied, I've not been able to find a source: if anyone else has more success, please add it to the Early life and education section ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Support for "MLM"

In this edit, @Clive Wynne Candy: claims that Contrary to what the editor [me: WikiDan61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)] has claimed, Hansard confirms that Chris Heaton-Harris most definitely spoke in support of the 'UK Direct Seling Association' and its member companies, all of which offer 'MLM' schemes. The cited source is this page from the UK House of Commons Hansard, which notes Heaton-Harris' speech in support of Direct Selling, but makes no mention of Multi-Level Marketing. If Clive Wynne Candy wishes to provide a citation to support the claim that the DSA's member companies all offer "MLM" schemes, he is welcome to do so. Until then, I claim that the linking of this speech to direct support for MLM is not correct and should not be included in this article (a biography of a living person, where standards of verifiability run quite high). WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

[[1]]

The Direct Selling Association (DSA), a lobbying group for the MLM industry, reported that in 1990 only 25% of DSA members used the MLM business model. By 1999, this had grown to 77.3%.[27] By 2009, 94.2% of DSA members were using MLM, accounting for 99.6% of sellers, and 97.1% of sales.[28] Companies such as Avon, Electrolux, Tupperware, and Kirby were all originally single-level marketing companies, using that traditional and uncontroversial direct selling business model (distinct from MLM) to sell their goods. However, they later introduced multi-level compensation plans, becoming MLMs.[24] The DSA has approximately 200 members[29] while it is estimated there are over 1,000 firms using multi-level marketing in the United States alone. 21:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clive Wynne Candy (talk • contribs)

@Clive Wynne Candy: OK, the DSA has members who employ MLM techniques. That doesn't exactly equate to Heaton-Harris supporting MLM. (And since MLM is not strictly illegal, why would it matter if he did?) WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:30, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

The kindest interpretation which can be put on these matters is that Chris Heaton-Harris was tricked into playing the role of Useful Idiot for some extremely devious, and wealthy, foreign-based charlatans. All the precisely-worded claims that Heaton-Harris made in his parliamentary statement of January 2015 very pointedly ignored the effectively 100% overall net-loss/churn rates for 'MLM' participation. These catastrophic net-loss/churn rates, which are not disputed, have been hidden by the pretence of ignorance (on the part of the 'DSA' and its member companies) and by the devious use of mystifying statistics (on the part of the 'DSA' and its member companies). Thus, Heaton-Harris' scripted-statement regarding the number of persons under contract to 'DSA' member companies in the UK in January 2015 (approximately 400 000) is highly-misleading and clearly designed to lure further ill-informed people into temporary 'MLM' de facto servitude and financial loss. Obviously, Heaton-Harris did not come up with this statement all by himself - it has been fed to him by the persons whom he actually names in the same statement. In reality, an insignificant % of 'MLM' participants have persisted. Indeed, most have failed to renew their first annual contract. Furthermore, I would refer you to the UK Fraud Act 2006 section 3, which defines and prohibits fraud by the withholding of key-information. It is interesting to note that not one member company of the 'UK DSA' has made the catastrophic quantifiable results of participation in its so-called 'MLM income opportunity' available publicly, and certainly not in an easy to understand format. I would invite you to watch the linked documentary which was filmed in Uganda in 2016/2017, and reflect on the sobering fact that 'Tiens' (the Chinese-based 'MLM/Direct Selling' company that is featured in it), is a member of the 'UK DSA' and that 'Tiens claims 8000 adherents in the UK and millions of adherents internationally. In the current situation with Covid 19, the demonstrably-absurd, and fraudulent, medical and economic quackery that 'Tiens' peddles represents a serious threat to the lives of any vulnerable individual, family or community falling under its pernicious influence. However, this is just one of hundreds of copy-cat 'MLM' companies. This is why this matters! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ7Wc90D2I&t=219s Clive Wynne Candy (talk) 22:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Having read your latest edit, I challenge you to name a significant member of the 'UK DSA' that does not operate an 'MLM' scheme? Clive Wynne Candy (talk) 22:19, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Might I ask why you have now broken Wikipedia rules by posting a link to the commercial Website of an American-registered company, Sheffield Group Inc., that specializes in the creation of 'MLM' companies for its clients? The source of the statistics that Sheffield Group has published in the promotional article you have linked, is the 'DSA' in the USA, and these statistics refer only to members of the 'DSA' in the USA. I repeat my challenge for you to name a significant member of the 'UK DSA' that does not operate a so-called 'MLM scheme.' Clive Wynne Candy (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I suspect that your neutrality in this matter is questionable, at best. MLM is a business model that exists, and is widely supported. While there are abuses of the model, it is not inherently evil, nor is it illegal. If Heaton-Harris supports this type of business model, because many of his constituents are participants, why make a big deal of it? And please cite me the Wikipedia policy that prevents me from using a commercial website that supports the creation of MLMs to cite the stated statistic. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:58, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

It is interesting that you make no reference to the Chinese-base 'MLM' company 'Tiens' which is featured in the documentary which I invited you to watch. In this case, your description of me as 'non-neutral' can be translated as well-informed. Please explain what part(s) of my edit is(are) not true and accurate or supported by quantifiable evidence? Whereas the content of Heaton Harris' Parliamentary statement is demonstrably neither accurate nor supported by any quantifiable evidence. The question of whether so-called 'MLM' schemes are businesses in the traditional sense of the word, has never been fully-tested in the UK courts. In 2008, the UK government attempted to close 'Amway UK Ltd.' on the limited grounds that the 'Amway' company had been in breach of UK trading schemes and lotteries legislation. At that time, it was discovered that at least one million UK citizens had been churned through 'Amway' since it first arrived in 1973. 'Amway' was allowed to continue without penalty in the UK when a High Court Judge broke legal precedent and accepted assurances that 'Amway' had reformed its previous chronic illegal activities and would henceforth act in compliance with the law. Today, 'MLM' companies, including 'Amway' remain effectively unregulated in the UK. Meanwhile, the proposition that 'MLM schemes are legal,' has been repeated so often that many people (evidently including yourself), now accept it as the truth. I will be surprised if Wikipedia rules allow you to remove evidence-based accurate statements as being 'non-neutral' and yet link the commercial Website of a company which has been profiting from the 'MLM' phenomenon, as a 'reference.' Clive Wynne Candy (talk) 12:44, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

What does the Chinese MLM company Tiens have to do with Heaton-Harris' Parliament speech? You clearly are here with an axe to grind, and Wikipedia will not have it. As I noted on your talk page, your edits here have been brought to the attention of the administrators at the neutral point of view noticeboard. I recommend you address any further arguments there. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

'What does the Chinese MLM company Tiens have to do with Heaton-Harris' Parliament speech?' Based on qestions like that, I get the distinct impression that you are not reading, let alone understanding, what I have written, for you accept that Heaton-Harris was speaking in support of all members of the UK DSA. Thus, Previously, I politely invited you to watch a linked documentary which was filmed in Uganda in 2016/2017, and to reflect on the sobering fact that 'Tiens' (the Chinese-based 'MLM/Direct Selling' company that is featured in it), is a member of the 'UK DSA' and that 'Tiens claims 8000 adherents in the UK and millions of adherents internationally. In the current situation with Covid 19, the demonstrably-absurd, and fraudulent, medical and economic quackery that 'Tiens' peddles represents a serious threat to the lives of any vulnerable individual, family or community falling under its pernicious influence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ7Wc90D2I&t=219s Clive Wynne Candy (talk) 13:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Why is this taking up so much time, its as if this is the most important thing he has ever said. Its trivial nonsense.Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Apparently Mr Candy has strong feelings about the MLM industry and feels the need to add his own interpretation of Mr Heaton-Harris' statements. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:01, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Not my point, why is his support of Direct Selling relevant?Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's relevant because Mr Candy thinks it is (he is the user who added the material). And Mr Candy thinks it's relevant more for what Heaton-Harris didn't say than for what he did say. As I've pointed out, unless he can find a reliable source that specifically commented on Heaton-Harris' omissions, Mr Candy's own commentary on that matter can only be considered original research and has no place in the article. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

None of it does until RS deem it significant,.Slatersteven (talk) 12:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven:You are very selective in your citing of policy. I will not engage in an edit war as per WP:EW, but please refrain from vandalising without discussing as per WP:VANDAL. An MP turned government minister such as Heaton-Harris being an outspoken supporter of some business model or sector should be at least as interesting as that he once received an NFL ticket from someone - as detailed in the section above. StanTwoCents (talk) 14:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@StanTwoCents: Hey, thanks for pointing out that NFL ticket thing -- I've removed that too. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Only if RS find it interesting, not just us.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

And the reason I did not pick up on the ticket thing was it was not all in a special section of its own.Slatersteven (talk) 14:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@WikiDan61: It is nice to be appreciated for a change. Even for a ‘sockpuppet’.StanTwoCents (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

References added

More experienced editors, please consider if the tag can be removed. StanTwoCents (talk) 22:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Recent edits

IP's please stop adding unsourced content or removing sources without a reason. If it continues I will ask for PP. Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)