Talk:Chip butty

Untitled

It would seem that at every edit, this article becomes more and more watered down in content. Some of the early entries are far more powerful in their description of the article and the (social) relevance around it. Maybe we need to bulk it back up a bit?RichardLowther 17:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd remove the comment about it requiring tomato sauce or rather than it contains it by default. A "Chip butty" is just chips in a sandwich alone. Sure it "can" contain more, but that is the base. Enverex 23:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never heared of a fish & chip shop being called a "Fish 'ole" before... Nadim Scolris 09:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Article Name

Real chip butty.

A chip butty should only be made with awful supermarket white bread, lots of butter, as many chips piled inside as possible, and after it is assembled it absolutely must be leaned on and crushed down hard to form the chips inside into a homogeneous mass!

I think this article really should be 'Chip sandwich', "butty" is really a localisation from North West UK. --BMT 18:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. "Sandwich" is an effete Southern variation. The chip butty was invented up North. andy 20:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"Chip Sandwich" indeed! Rubbish. I'm in South Wales, and chips between two slices of bread make a butty. Emartuk 14:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm not really trying to change your respective ways of life! However "butty" IS a localisation and Wikipedia provides an international view i.e.WP:CSB. This can be seen by comparing Butty and Sandwich --BMT 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm from Liverpool and have heard butty used for all types of sandwiches. My father (originally from Bradford, North East England) had never heard the term when he moved to the North West in the 1950's. It's more widely known now, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.245.72.35 (talk) 14:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I live in Devon and it's "chip butty" here too. Totnesmartin (talk) 13:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Im from the north east and Ive always known it as a chip butty, but I now live in Bolton in the north west and the term is never used, instead its chip barm. People apparently dont even know what a butty is here, I asked for one in a chip shop when I first got here and got a really funny look, same thing happened to me in blackpool a few years earlier, so its not just bolton. 81.109.230.12 (talk) 23:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Wiltshire lad and its most definately a butty. Whether in Wiltshire, the south coast (where my mothers from) and birmingham (where my dad's from and i'm at uni) its always a butty. It might be an english localisation but its not any part of england. Long live the Butty. 77.98.7.142 (talk) 20:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm from the South of England and to me "chip" and "butty" are inseparable in this context: I've never heard the term "chip sandwich". This doesn't mean the latter is wrong or that there are not parts of the world that enjoy chip sandwiches but I suspect that the idea is more likely to have spread from the North of England and that therefore the original term is not "localization" but that "sandwich", if anything, is the adaptation. "Barm" (above) may also be an original but where I've often heard of "butty" used by bemused tourists outside the UK I've never heard "barm". IMO "chip butty" deserves its separate WP article because WP is here to explain these odd terms...internationally.--Jobowo (talk) 18:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

A barm cake is the Northwest name for a flat bun properly made with yeast from brewing (barm). (To Yorkshire people, this may be a tea cake.) Chip sandwich? Never heard of it. Chip butty (or chip barm in parts of the NW UK) are the terms. A chip butty can be made with sliced bread, but a chip barm has to be a barm cake. Also found are sugar butty and conny-onny butty, neither of which are called sandwiches either. Peridon (talk) 18:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard it called 'chip sandwich'. As far as I know, the name 'chip butty' derives from the Welsh for friend, pal, etc: 'but' - an old term originating in the mines. Chips surrounded by bread friends? Or a chip-bread concoction that is a friend? Who knows. But a rename to 'chip sandwich' would be like renaming Battenberg cake to 'marzipan-covered checked bicolour sponge'. --Dancraggs 17:50, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

How can this be [An]"..article [is] about the sandwich made using french-fried potatoes." If chips(or chipped potatoes) are french fried then so are roast poatatoes, the size of the cut totally effect the taste, texture and cosistancy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.71.97 (talk) 09:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The guy living in Bolton saying it is a "chip barm" is citing a totally different thing. I lived in Manchester for most of my life and a "chip barm" is a barm cake with chips on it, not a slice of bread, folded with chips on it. A butty is a piece of bread, buttered and something added ie: sausage, (sausage butty) bacon, (bacon butty) chips, jam etc and folded in half, although contents between two slices is often referred to as a butty too. A barm cake in Manchester is referred to as a muffin in some parts (ie Oldham) although might be slightly different. In Cheshire they often call it a "batch" and a teacake is different again, with currants in it. A commonly used term in Manchester and Liverpool, where it's association became widespread due to Ken Dodd's "jam butty mines". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.151.209.233 (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

In New Zealand and probably the rest of the "colonies" it's known as a chip sandwhich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.59.206.179 (talk) 00:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 21:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Earthworm Jim 2

Is it at ALL worth noting that the chip butty was a mega-powerup in the video game Earthworm Jim 2, or is that absolutely useless trivia which has no place in the article whatsoever? Just throwin' that out there. ~ Joseph Collins [U|T|C] 05:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that's the sort of information that might have a place in the video game's article (not sure about that, depends how important it is within the game, I suppose), but not in this article. After all, we don't have Pacman references in a half dozen fruit articles ;-) --Icarus ^(Hi!) 09:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should.... 95.150.84.247 (talk) 12:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Article image

"A classic chip butty made with chips, white bread, butter, and tomato sauce"

Is "white bread" something else in the UK, because this is very clearly rye bread? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.135.125 (talk) 01:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea if it is rye bread, but it is quite clearly white, and was when the above comment was made. I checked. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:34, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

"Filled with chips"

Should the first sentence somehow clarify in text that “chips” is being used in the UK English sense to refer to fried potato (“french fries” in US English) rather than potato crisps? As an American reader, the lead alone (devoid of other context, such as the image, or the UK-specific term “butty”) strikes me as ambiguous. I see an IP editor recently removed “chips (i.e. French fries)” without explanation. Would something like “…is a sandwich filled with chips (deep fried potatoes)” be appropriate to add back? RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 18:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd just restore "French fries". You're correct that the specific ambiguity here screams for clarity. Largoplazo (talk) 19:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Done, here. I've put this back several times already but other editors keep wandering in and changing it. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Probably something to do with the fact that french fries are too skinny a cut of chip to be considered useful filling for a chip butty. SignpostMarv (talk) 21:25, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

In practise,, they are different things.Halbared (talk) 21:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, good point. So, I've changed the article, here, to say "... a sandwich filled with chips (a type of thick-cut french fries)..." — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Chips used in a chip butty are not a type of french fry... they are chips. It is cultural appropriation for people from outside the British Isles to tell British people what their food stuffs are called or what they are a category of. Stop reverting the changes and stop imposing US English onto a British food. I've made a neutral change that chips are a thick-cut potato not to be confused with french fries. Unless you're suggesting that US people make sandwiches with french fries... I assume not, but if they did do make sandwiches with French Fries do they call it a "chip butty". Unless they do then there should be no reference to french fries in this article other than disambiguation - which is the edit I have made. Marlarkey (talk) 13:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Are chips a type of french fry?

Are chips a type of french fry? I believe that they are. There are different types of french fries. Some are skinny, some are curly, some are seasoned with spices. And some are cut quite thick, and rather crispy on the outside and tender on the inside. I've been thinking that the latter subspecies of french fries are chips, or as we call them in the U.S., steak fries. But not everyone agrees, as seen in recent edits by Marlarkey, here and here. I would be happy to adjust my thinking, if that's appropriate, but so far it seems to me that while not all french fries are chips, all chips are in fact french fries. "P.S." If most editors think that chips are not french fries, then I would say that chips should have their own Wikipedia article, instead of being covered in the french fries article as is currently the case. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah, no, french frys are a subsection of chips. You are welcome. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 23:12, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Supplementary note : Perhaps we should also consider if noodles are a type of pasta? -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 23:13, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

French fries seems to be a quite specific type of chip, where as chips covers a wide range of 'chips.'Halbared (talk) 08:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia - it is a suitable place for you to air your opinions and beliefs. French Fries are the more specific type of the larger category of friend potatos. French fries are the skinny version. Chips are the more generic case of fried potatos. Also given that chip butties are a specific British thing it is more appropriate to use British terminology for the chips that go in them. Chips are not a type of french fry - both are types of fried potatoes and the chips that go in a chip butty are not to be confused with french fries. Marlarkey (talk) 21:19, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm starting to get the idea that in the U.S., chips (or steak fries) would be considered a type of french fries, which is a very generic term here, but in Britain they would not, as french fries is a more specific term there. It's a matter of terminology, or usage I guess I mean. And, yes, since chip butties -- and fish and chips -- are primarily British phenomena, then the article should favor the British terminology. WP:ENGVAR and all that, eh? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

This would seem to support the idea that chips should have their own Wikipedia article. The French fries article makes it seem like chips are a type of french fry, but as we're seeing here, that's only one way of looking at it, and perhaps not the best way. And certainly British chips are a notable subject. Thoughts? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: Hello! About this edit, now the article links to a disambiguation page, i.e. Chips. That's not how it was before. So, you'll want to adjust that, I think. Or I can, but there's some debate about exactly what the text should say. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 17:26, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. sorted back to where it was before. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 17:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog and Squeakachu: and other interested editors: In light of the recent edits here and here, I'm wondering if the lead can be further improved, to satisfy both British and American readers. I don't think there's a consensus on whether or not chips are a type of french fry, and the answer might partly depend on which side of the pond you're from, nor would either position be "nonsense", in my view. Maybe the lead can say something like, "A chip butty is a sandwich filled with chips (thick-cut deep fried potatoes), optionally eaten with condiments such as..." By not mentioning french fries, we would thus avoid the dilemma, while still accurately describing the sandwich. That's just a suggestion, but in any event I don't think we've arrived at our final destination yet. (This does not address the related situation of chips not having their own article, but instead being included in the french fries article.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 02:06, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Ignorance on my part. I always thought that "chips" and "french fries" were fully interchangeable. I didn't realize that "french fries" was used to refer to thin cut fries in British English. Actually, I didn't realize that that term was used at all in British English. I thought it was exclusively an American English thing. I guess before I edited I should have looked at this talk page (or, I see now, the etymology section at French fries). Oops. Now that I know better I have no objection to the wording Roxy restored. Squeakachu (talk) 02:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

French fries is quite well used in the UK, mostly in American fast food chains, but other places as well, certain types of crisps (potato chips) are also called 'fries.' Chips and fries are often interchanged, but people in Britain also know that chips refers to the old-fashioned thick cut and fries will be of a very particular cut and cook.Halbared (talk) 09:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

The relevant question isn't whether the set of things British people call "chips" is identical to the set of things Americans call "French fries", or whether one is a subset of the other, or whether they are intersecting sets or mutually exclusive sets.

It also isn't "Do those potato pieces match the prototypical chip or French fry, respectively, that come to the mind of the average Brit or American, respectively, on encountering each of those terms in speech or writing?"

The relevant question is "What do a Brit and an American, respectively, by default call those things that they see in a chip butty?" I, an American, just scrolled through dozens of images of chip butties, and to me those things are French fries. In a very few cases, they were wide enough that I would also call them "steak fries" which, to me, is just a thicker-cut French fry; I still see them as French fries. I assume (because the name of the sandwich is "chip butty") that the average Brit will look at them and say, by default, "Those are chips". Since it's a British dish, and the article should be written in UK English, it should say, primarily, "chips", but, to clarify things for Americans, there ought to be a parenthetical that reads "(which Americans generally identify as French fries)". Largoplazo (talk) 10:41, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. So, how about this?

A chip butty is a sandwich filled with chips (thick-cut deep fried potatoes, similar to steak fries), optionally eaten with condiments such as brown sauce, ketchup, mayonnaise, or malt vinegar.

— Mudwater ^(Talk) 03:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

It's been three weeks and no one has objected to this revised wording, so I've updated the article, here. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Origin

I think there are more than enough references for the origin being the United Kingdom; Ireland was arbitrarily added a few years ago. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 03:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Scallop butty

The provided sources don't indicate notability for including this. See WP:DUE. Popcornfud (talk) 11:48, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I've never heard of one. I'd support excluding it for non-notability rather than irrelevance. Ponsonby100 (talk) 11:54, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

You're right in that I misunderstood it initially on reading the description in the article, but it's seemingly non-notable and poorly sourced either way, so I'll just go ahead and remove it now. Popcornfud (talk) 11:56, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The notability guideline is for whether or not a topic should have its own article. As it says near the top of the page, "The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article." Within an article, a topic can be included with suitable references, unless it's so trivial that it detracts from the article. As for undue, it's appropriate to include a single paragraph of a few sentences about the scallop butty as part of the article about the chip butty. The scallop butty is very similar as it's made with deep-fried pieces of potatoes, on a buttered roll or buttered bread. I would therefore definitely favor restoring the scallop butty material. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 15:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Scallop butties are a favourite round my way, and found in all chippies, alongside just scallops as a treat on their own.Halbared (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Sounds great, do you have any reliable secondary sources indicating that they're notable for Wikipedia so we can include them? Popcornfud (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Popcornfud:What we would like are more secondary sources for verifiability, not for notability. "The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article," as it says at the top of the Notability guideline. So the scallop butty does not have to be notable, just verifiable. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:32, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Let me rephrase:

Sounds great, do you have any reliable secondary sources indicating that this matters a damn to Wikipedia so we can include them? Popcornfud (talk) 19:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Menus are not suitable? This is a site which gives the top 9 butties in the UK. Scallops is mentioned as a variation on the chip butty.https://www.tasteatlas.com/best-rated-sandwiches-and-wraps-in-united-kingdom.Halbared (talk) 09:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC) A lancsnews article on a a Blackburn variation, https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/tried-dab-naughty-blackburn-chippy-25551024.Halbared (talk) 09:30, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

That Taste Atlas reference is a good one. As you can see, it's an article called "Top 9 British Sandwiches and Wraps", on a website about food. Talking about the chip butty, it says, "There's also a variation known as scallop butty, made with battered and deep-fried potato slices instead of chips." Nice! — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

TasteAtlas is not reliable, for WP:USERG reasons. See discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#tasteatlas. Popcornfud (talk) 12:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

The issue with tasteatlas seems to be it claims exclusivity or origins for foods, not that variations exist? Anyway, the regional news article is there, plus the Mirror, https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tesco-scouse-10-more-local-3199635, and Lovefood.com as well. https://www.lovefood.com/news/58954/great-british-sandwiches-the-butty. Scallop/scollp butty. This regional variation is noteworthy.Halbared (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC).

The problem with TasteAtlas is what I wrote above: WP:USERG.

The Mirror is a tabloid newspaper and isn't considered a strong source on Wikipedia.

Lovefood.com looks like another random blog or shop or something and so not appropriate, but again, I invite you to ask at WP:RSN if you want more opinions.

Appearances in listicles on blogs, shop sites etc aren't strong sources for Wikipedia. We're looking for reputable secondary sources with editorial oversight. If it isn't mentioned in a strong reputable source it probably isn't worth covering.

Let's not spend this much energy arguing about a regional variation on a chip butty — there must be better ways to improve the article. I'll see what I can find in good sources about this subject. Popcornfud (talk) 21:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I support inclusion for the reasons given by Mudwater. It's more than one source, sources that I believe to be suitable for WP:V purposes, talking about a variation that's spread about. It isn't the same thing as additions I've seen to other food articles involving a variation that somebody once wrote about in a blog after seeing it on one particular restaurant's menu. Those additions have been removed. Change of mind. The sources are week and I guess I was just assuming they were the tip of the iceberg. They weren't. I'm really not finding anything else about them. So even if I'm not worried about WP:V, there is WP:DUE. Largoplazo (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Before we get into arguments about WP:DUE we need to address the sources.

There were two sources given for this info:

• The first source does not appear to be a reliable or usable for Wikipedia.
• The second source is a single brief mention in the San Diego Tribune which suggests only that the reader "batter fries before frying" and isn't sufficient to demonstrate that this variation is important or even that it exists beyond this recipe.

Popcornfud (talk) 16:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: About the sources, I'd say the first one -- an article in Enterprise Rent-a-Car's magazine, about some "regional treats" -- is actually pretty good. I don't see anything unreliable or unusable about it. The second source is pretty sparse, as you said, but it still documents the phenomenon to some extent. In my view those two sources are adequate for putting back the brief paragraph. Or course, more sources would be better. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The Enterprise source is a no-go. For a start it fails WP:VENDOR (it primarily exists to sell good and services) and WP:QUESTIONED (no indication of editorial oversight). If you're not persuaded I suggest you ask for more opinions at WP:RSN.

The San Diego Union Tribune source is so sparse it barely tells us anything at all. Taken on its own terms it doesn't even say a scallop butty exists. It's not even a sentence, just a suggestion for a "variation" in a recipe. Popcornfud (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The Enterprise source is a travel magazine. I'm sure the idea is to indirectly encourage people to travel and rent cars, but the magazine itself does not "primarily exist to sell products or services". Nor is there any reason to think that it lacks editorial oversight. So, it's perfectly fine as a source. The San Diego newspaper article says that the scallop butty is like a chip butty, but with the potatoes battered before they're fried. That's also valid. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:35, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Since the sources, while not very impressive, are valid and sufficient to establish verifiability, I'm restoring the brief scallop butty paragraph. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted this, since there's no consensus for its inclusion based on the discussion above. As I said above, I suggest you post the Enterprise source at WP:RSN if you want more opinions on its validity. Popcornfud (talk) 03:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I have completely rewritten and expanded the article based on high-quality sources. This includes a reference to the notorious scallop butty. I hope this satisfies everyone's goals for the article. Popcornfud (talk) 23:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: Your recent edits have significantly improved the article. Nice work, and thanks for that. But we're not quite there yet with the notorious scallop butty. The article says, "Variations include sandwiches made with scalloped chips or curly fries," with a reference of the Guardian article "How to Eat: Chip Butties". In the Guardian article the word "scallops" links to an article, on a website called The Crazy Kitchen, about "Beer Battered Potato Scallops & Minted Mushy Peas". So far, so good! But... The WP article links to "Scallop potatoes", which is a redirect to "Gratin". Part of that article talks about au gratin potatoes -- scalloped potatoes baked with cheese. So, wrong scalloped potatoes. I'm not sure if there's a better WP article to link to, though. I think the link should be removed and the text rephrased. Something about scalloped or sliced potatoes that have been battered and deep-fried, which would be validated, albeit somewhat indirectly, by the Guardian article. And, not to get greedy, but in my view it would be best if the article mentioned the phrase "scallop butty". — Mudwater ^(Talk) 11:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

You know what, I jumped the gun here, because on rereading it the Guardian source still doesn't support the claim that "variations include scalloped fries". It simply says that (in the author's opinion) scalloped potatoes don't belong in a chip butty. That's not the same thing as saying there is such a thing as a scallop butty. Therefore I've removed it.

I'm afraid we're back to square one in that we are still going to need a strong secondary source that directly states the information we want to include without requiring WP:SYNTH or other dubious inference on our part. I spent a lot of time working on this article yesterday, and in all the sources I found and reviewed, none of them mention it. Believe me, I tried my best.

The sources provided above fail to meet the criteria for Wikipedia sources, for reasons I've explained. If you still disagree with that, please take the sources to WP:RSN for more discussion on their validity.

But really, I'm sorry to say, if there's no strong source that talks about scallop butties, maybe they're not as important as you think and there are other things to focus our energies on. Popcornfud (talk) 12:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)