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Archive 1

Another published description

I went back to my breed books. Not a lot about the Catahoula because they're not that common and not recognized by most kennel clubs. But Simon & Schuster's Guide to Dogs, another of my favorites, has this to say:

"(The Catahoula) is an affectionate, devoted, trainable dog, very loving toward its master but an aggressive guard dog." This book uses a different selection of icons to indicate key traits--up to 3 per breed for most breeds (kinda arbitrary, but there ya go). It did not include the icon for "gentle"; it significantly also did not include the icon for having a definite tendency to bite. Interestingly for comparison, the Border Collie is listed as gentle AND as having a definite tendency to bite. So make of it what you will. Just points out again that there's apparently a lot of variability. Elf | Talk 02:17, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As I thought about it more this afternoon, I came to the same conclusion, i.e., there must be a lot of variability. Probably what we're seeing here is a breed "in the making". There seems to be great variability in size, color, shape, temperament, you name it... perhaps even to the extent that one can just about call any old mutt a Catahoula Leopard Dog and get away with it. Maybe it would be wise to think of Catahoulas like German Shepherds: they run the gamut from vicious to gentle and everywhere in between. Some you can trust, and others you can't.
As for the professional sites: I have to admit, when you visit the Poodle sites they all talk about how sweet, lovable, and adorable they are. I suppose that's usually true, but mine also eats and drinks like a pig, digs holes, buries bones, eats dead birds, and drinks from the toilet. Not exactly the vision one has in mind when somebody mentions "Poodle".
BTW, glad y'all liked the Catahoula Leotard Dog. That's how I remember to spell leopard correctly: spell leotard (which is phonetic and easy to remember) and substitute a p for the t.Wcrowe 03:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quick Facts Box

I'm adding these Quick Fact Boxes to as many dogs as I can. The info comes from a combination of of web sites. Seems like the box should go near the top and the reader to then scoll down for details. Please give me your thoughts Noles1984 17:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

While a gallery of Catahoula types is a great idea, it unfortunately was unecessary in this case for a variety of reasons. This might be breaking good faith here, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone, but it seems to me that this try for a gallery seems to just be a tactic to include a pair of images that I deemed unfit for inclusion for the reasons below previously several times. There were three images in the gallery and I'll discuss each of them.

  • There was already a good image of a blue merle catahoula (in the infobox), making the coat color factor redundant. In fact, it made it triply redundant, as not one but two of the images were of the exact same coat color.
  • There were already two images showing catahoula pups, in two different stages of age and covernig the age of the puppy shown.
  • I kept the tan image outside of a gallery format, as it was obviously a new and unique addition and there was plenty of space for it.

If someone can find more images of coat types not already found in the article, feel free to reinstate the gallery. Also, per gallery guidelines, it is a good idea to have a specific title that tells what the purpose and parameters of a gallery is, so it doesn't get gratuitous. Such as "Gallery of Catahoula types" instead of just "photo gallery". Also, remember that a caption should not just describe the image, but it should give info that justifies its existence. Thank you VanTucky 22:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Catahoulas in South America

I removed this:

  • Some veterinarians say that the Catahoula was exported to South America to deal with feral long horn cattle that escaped into the jungles during cattle drives south from the U.S. in the 1800s. Typically, beaters drove the wild cattle out of the jungle, where the Catahoula would control it by latching onto its nose, until the longhorn could be shot. Reports of even young puppies nipping the nose of owners and children are common.

There's no citing of references and an online search produced no hits. It is an intriguing piece of info and welcomed if it can be substantiated. Wish the author of the paragraph was an actual user. Noles1984 14:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Different phenotypes

So I then posed this question:

You know, it's occurring to me that all of these responses are from CA catahoula owners--I wonder whether the breed is different in, say, Louisiana? Californians might emphasize different things when breeding their dogs... Just a thought.

A Catahoula is unlike any dog that I have been privledged to know. They are bright, affectionate, and yes, demonstrative. However, they are a real joy and are great company. If you enjoy a companion, an athlete, a good sense of humor, affection, and exercise, This is a wonderful, wonderful doggie--Mangomanfl 21:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)]

My friend responded:

If you visit one of the Catahoula sites, ( I think it is the catahoulaleopard.com-in the breed history) you can find that there are at least two different types/phenotypes-That seem to appear-One is more often used for hunting boar etc. These dogs are bigger and generally not as houndy looking (shorter, higher set ears, etc)-they tend to look more like Pit bulls and are quite large-Ones that I met could stand on their hind legs and look me in the eye! (interestingly-the man who was breeding them gave his best female to his young niece after he weaned her pups...go figure!)
The other line/phenotype are used to work cattle-these are lighter more houndy looking-like Cate E and Ana. Since that is what their parents do for a living.
Also there is still a huge difference in what the males and female look like (Males being much bigger and heavier) since they are selected on working ability not conformation!
Now dogs of different shapes can certainly do different things-I believe all the instincts are still in each type but they maybe better suited physically for different tasks-but people breeding any type of working dog tend to breed to get the type they want.

Thanks! Leslie (This is a very interesting discussion!)
Elf | Talk 17:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad she referenced catahoulaleopard.com. That is the website I have already quoted above (Catahoula Leopard stock dogs outwork and outfight all other breeds of stock dogs when protecting their master, livestock, and property. They are the largest and most aggressive of the cattle dogs, bred to handle wild cattle and hogs in the roughest, most remote country. Catahoulas will also hunt coon, bear, or whatever else they are introduced to. These dogs are not good city dwellers... they need several acres to roam to be happy. A farm or ranch is really their element... ...They are more primitive psychologically than most breeds and need consistent obedience reinforcement... ...Not everyone needs them...not everyone can handle them...and not everyone should have them... ...These dogs fight restraint, and will hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully...)
I'm sorry Elf, but I'm seeing a lot of inconsistencies among the breed's enthusiasts. Am I to believe that they will both hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully, and great family pets at the same time? Do they need several acres to roam to be happy or they do not need several acres? These statements are at odds with each other. Do you see what I mean? I suppose I should just, um, let sleeping dogs lie... ahem, I imagine you're pretty busy and I don't want to aggravate anyone.

Wcrowe 20:58, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Leslie responds (via Elf):
I like the catahoula leotard dog-very witty!
Catahoulas need room or a job! or both-is that, that hard to figure out-it is a highly active, intelligent breed.
On the Catahoula website, of course, they are going to say our breed is the "toughest, smartest, fastest, most loyal..." CatahoulaLeopard.com is aimed at hunters and cattle breeders-not just the regular dog owner.

Would you expect them to say choose this (you fill in) breed instead? Come on!

What else do you expect-it's the breeds marketing site!
These dogs need lots of patience and socializing-but what dogs don't?
I've put many hours into both my dogs and if people like them, then maybe they will research the breed.. maybe not. Either is OK with me.
I feel people in general need to be more intelligent about the pet choices they make. If you want a Catahoula to be your family dog - you just need to know that it will take some work but the end reward is worth it!!!
Then Ellen says--hey, Fogle's book says that Cockers are good with kids, and based on my experience with them, I wouldn't put a kid near one! Although I'm sure that I've only encountered badly bred, badly researched cockers & I know there are some in this area doing agility who are very sweet. My impression is that catahoulas are not among the easiest to train and are not among the laid-back breeds of dogs. But "easy to train" probably requires some qualification, too. I believe that pretty much any medium-to-large herding dog needs a firm handler/owner, needs lots of exercise and some sort of job to do to keep its brain occupied, and is by nature possessive of its property. I also think from what I've read that catahoulas are probably more variable still than some other breeds. But I'm not convinced that they're only two steps away from being a wild, unmanageable dog. I think that the answer is to point out that there may be alot of variation and to pick your breeder carefully. Which is always good advice anyway, but particularly true in a developing breed (well, ok, it's really a very old breed, but it's not a "standard" breed...). Elf | Talk 02:08, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  Well in answer to the question of 'wheather people in California breed for different things in a Catahoula' If they are breeding for anything other than the breed standards as explained by either of the main registries for Catahoulas NALC or UKC they are breeding wrong! If you are breeding sa specific breed of dog you should adhere to that breeds breed standard or constitute a 'new breed' with the charicteristics YOU set.The only big things that are different in the breed standards between the NALC and the UKC are the colors and the bobtail has recently been accepted as a 'natural charicteristic' by the UKC and is no longer penalized as a fault in confirmation classes.The bobtail has NO LENGTH DEFINITION meaning that a dog with a tail one vertabra short to ONLY one vertabra will not be faulted.Wilsonskennels (talk) 11:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Health Concerns

The health section is largely taken from [1] and unattributed. --Geofferic (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Changes

Using Don Abney, much of the coat color was altered. Health problems was cleaned and cited.Noles1984 (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

And more web sites

OK, I'm sure there are more, but i'm NOT getting the impression of a breed that is dangerous around children or that will hang itself when put on a leash or is semiwild. Elf | Talk 02:41, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, the hanging itself line, admittedly, sounded like an exagerration. However, I have already visited some of the above websites and while we're reading the same pages, we seem to be getting different impressions.
I visited each of the above sites. Here are some things I took note of:
  • Any dog that is allowed to choose its position in the pack, your family, will try to find its standing in the hierarchy. Since children are at eye level with the dog, it makes perfect sense to challenge the one that is on its level first, and proceed up the chain until it is in charge. It is your responsibility, as the leader, to make your dogs understand that their position is at the lower end of this pecking order. Family first, dog last.
My response: Good advice, but there's that responsibility word again. What does one do while the pecking order is being established, hope no one gets bit?
  • While not overtly aggressive, one would be unwise to enter their domain in the absence of their owner.
My response: Does the typical family really want a dog that might attack the meter-reader, or the neighbor's wandering four-year-old, and can they afford the resulting lawsuit?
  • The owner must assert his/her dominance from day one & continue to re-enforce that dominance when tested, or trouble will follow.
My response: Can the average owner be dominant enough? Will the average parent know how to do this?
  • As a general rule, Catahoulas are not well-suited to novice owners. Experience with Catahoulas or other large and/or assertive breeds is a plus for prospective Catahoula owners.
My response: How many people looking for a family-friendly pet have these credentials?
  • Also, Catahoulas must have obedience training - they are an assertive, dominant breed and can quickly take over a household if given the chance.
My response: Can a busy family spend the time and money required for obedience training?
  • Although affectionate with his master, the Catahoula is not recommended for the casual pet owner who is uninterested in allowing the dog to function in his intended capacity.
My response: If "family dog" is not the intended capacity, should this breed be recommended as a family pet? Aren't most pet owners of the "casual" variety?
  • The Catahoula makes a good family dog provided enough exercise is made available. This breed must get a minimum of one hour of running exercise each day, rain or shine. A Catahoula will not tolerate being isolated, so interaction with the dog is a daily requirement. I strongly recommend obedience training for the family dog.
My response: Can a typical busy family maintain such an excercise regimen?
My impression, then, is of a breed that is capable of being family friendly, but will require quite a bit of responsibility on the part of the owner to get there. Yes, I realize responsibility is important with all dogs, but to what extent? In general can one be more assured of a friendly dog with certain breeds (a Golden Retriever comes to mind)?
The only caveat that the Wikipedia article has is, They are inquisitive and have an independent streak. Can you see my dilemma? What I fear is that someone is going to read the Wikipedia article, get a Catahoula, and a few months later another unwanted dog is going to be sitting in a shelter somewhere, or awaiting a court-ordered death, with perhaps a mangled or dead child in the bargain. Maybe some of the recommendations from those websites should be fleshed out in the Wiki article.
I hope you will see me as cautious rather than closed minded. Our discussion has been very productive. Before this, I would have never considered owning a Cathoula. At this point, I might actually consider owning one if I were a more experienced trainer (in the meantime I better stick to Poodles:)). Wcrowe 20:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Actually I think I agree with you. Elf | Talk 22:56, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm an owner of a wonderful Catahoula. Before him we had a Border Collie for sixteen years. Totally different breed. The Catahoula requires a very strong leader; even neutered he is constantly challenging obedience wise. He's one of the most loving and yes gentle with children dogs I've ever seen, but I agree, the breed is absolutely not for the average pet dog owner, the structured activity level required is significant. They require more attention and a strong leader than any other dog I know. Best dog I ever had. Most loving, loyal, kills armadillos in nothing flat. Blake1960 (talk) 00:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Please explain your edits

There are a bunch of edits performed by Phattums and a couple of others recently, some of which seem to be very significant, but there is no annotation accompanying the change. Please explain your edits. Victor Engel (talk) 20:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


Origins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dog_breeds_originating_in_the_United_States Shouldn't it be placed in this category? I'm not sure how to do it, but just wanted to bring it to the main contributors to the article.Arthur Curry (talk) 23:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I am new to editing and am still not real sure how it works but I can tell you without any doubt that the second photo on the Catahoula Page is a mix or the worst (confirmationally) looking Catahoula I have ever seen.In my opinion this 'bushy' tailed dog is NOT even close to the Catahoula that should be shown as an example.File:Http://wilsonscatahoulabulldogs.zoomshare.com/files/Blue Belle.JPGthis is what a catahoula is supposed to look like. The second photo on this page is not a variance but a dog with many many confirmation faults. DO NOT USE MY Photo! It is my dog.I think we owe the public shots of different types of Catahoulas i.e. bobtail,solid color, ect...not confirmationally incorrect dogs.Wilsonskennels (talk) 10:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment by wilsonskennels, the dogs pictured don't in my opinion reflect the true appearance of the Catahoula Leopard dog, and believe that they should be replaced or at least supplemented with photos of conformationally correct specimens of the breed as denoted by the breed standard. Additionally, the other photo where the dog is described as having a 'harlequin' face is also misleading, the merle gene in Catahoulas makes color patterns known as leopard or patchwork, the term harlequin is used for the same effect of the merle gene in Great Danes and the term harlequin is not used in descriptions of Catahoula Leopard Dogs. ~hogdogger~

I reject the assertion based on a few unrelated studies that the Catahoula is not descended in part from domesticated Red Wolf breeds local to the natives living in the particular area where the Catahoula arose. To deny the red wolf ancestry, the DNA study would have needed to have been conducted on dogs of the indian tribes that were local to the Catahoula's native territory. I strongly suggest that information be removed. There is no reason to doubt the history of the breed as understood locally, certainly not due to a few DNA studies that did not include native domestic dogs from the area that Catahoulas emerged from. You might as well use DNA studies of dogs from Asia to refute the red wolf lineage. There is no reason whatsoever that local natives could not have domesticated the red wolf, none. It's a perfectly plausible explanation, and has been passed down orally as fact. It's a stretch to figure why someone would make up such information. (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

With a month gone by an no objections, I'll remove the errant claim rejecting Red Wolf lineage and add a quote from noted Catahoula Leopard Dog expert, Mr. Don Abney. Blake1960 (talk)

Since no objection, I am removing the OR and replacing with properly sourced info from Mr. Don Abney, expert on Catahoula Leopard Dogs. Blake1960 (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Bias?

Many parts of this article seem to be trying to promote a positive image of this breed rather than telling all the facts. I'm not in any way saying that the breed isn't amazing. I'm simply saying that there is much more focus on the good than the bad. If the bad isn't going to be highlighted, neither should the good. It should be entirely neutral. And this:

'The Catahoula temperament is well suited for everyone' is completely untrue. The Catahoula temperment is most certainly not well-suited for everyone. And I'm an example of that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.56.8 (talk) 23:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What bad? There are no bad dogs, only bad owners. Fact. Blake1960 (talk) 00:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree completely that the Catahoula temperament is absolutely NOT well suited for everyone. For one, it's a strange assertion to make in a reference article, as the issue of well-suitedness is completely subjective. However, even if we take the statement to mean that the breed is easygoing and adapts well to all situations, this is definitely not true about Catahoulas. A typical Catahoula requires substantially more active engagement and physical activity than, say, a typical Golden Retriever. Of course, there are exceptions to every trend, but I find it irresponsible to suggest that owning a Catahoula is just the same as owning any other breed. I would not recommend the breed for anyone who cannot commit a certain amount of time each day to engage directly with the dog and give it some vigorous exercise. In addition to this, Catahoulas, on average, tend to be possessive and territorial and this CAN create a dangerous situation for other animals or strangers IF the dog's owner is not sufficiently tuned in and on top of things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phattums (talk) 14:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Gentle?

I was surprised to read in the article that Catahoula Leopard Dogs are generally very loving and gentle with children.

From all that I've read, and my own experience, nothing could be further from the truth.

According to Bruce Fogle, DVM, author of The Encyclopedia Of The Dog, Hunters sometimes used the Catahoula to trail and tree raccoons, but this dominant breed is more at home acting the thug with recalcitrant boars. Breeding is based on survival of the fittest. He goes on to rate the dog unsuitable as a child's companion; unsuitable for urban life; difficult to train; may be troublesome with other dogs.

Of the 400 dog breeds and types mentioned in his book, this is the most damning description.

This puts emphasis on things that Fogle does not emphasize. In the four categories you mention, the trait is indicated ONLY by true/false icons, NOT by text, so that the book never says in text that the dogs are "unsuitable as a child's companion; unsuitable for urban life; difficult to train; may be troublesome with other dogs". Because they're indicated only by yes/no icons, all dogs are either, for example, "suitable as a child's companion" or "unsuitable as a child's companion" with no variations or shades of gray. None of these issues are called out specifically in the text. Elf | Talk 16:02, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Catahoulaleopard.com, a website dedicated to the breed says, Catahoula Leopard stock dogs outwork and outfight all other breeds of stock dogs when protecting their master, livestock, and property. They are the largest and most aggressive of the cattle dogs, bred to handle wild cattle and hogs in the roughest, most remote country. Catahoulas will also hunt coon, bear, or whatever else they are introduced to. These dogs are not good city dwellers... they need several acres to roam to be happy. A farm or ranch is really their element... ...They are more primitive psychologically than most breeds and need consistent obedience reinforcement... ...Not everyone needs them...not everyone can handle them...and not everyone should have them... ...These dogs fight restraint, and will hang themselves or bite their handler if not leashbroken very carefully...

DogBreedInfo.com speaks of the breed's intolerance with strangers.

My own experience with Catahoulas is limited to the pair which frequent the local dog park. They are the terrors of the park, frightening both people and dogs alike. Why a city dweller would want such a dog is beyond me. Must be some sort of macho thing.

It is not my intention to disparage the breed. I'm sure they are great dogs doing what they've been bred for. But this article makes them look like they would make great family pets, and I just don't think that is the case at all. In my opinion, "good with children" means good with strange children, who may pull and poke a dog. Just because particular dogs are good with their families, does not necessarily make them good family pets, unless the nearest neighbor is forty miles away.

Despite my reservations, I did not want to just jump in and edit the article. I think some discussion would be in order. If I do not hear from anyone on the subject, I am changing the wording in the article to more accurately describe the breed. Wcrowe

Interesting question. I know only 2 Catahoulas, too, and they are sweet, friendly, well-trained, good around other dogs, and are also excellent dog agility dogs, which perhaps focuses their energy. I don't know how they are around children. They're around other dogs all the time and there's never been a problem. But the Catahoulas are still an evolving breed, so one might expect there to be a lot of variation. I'll see whether I can get more info from my catahoula-owning friend, who seems to know quite a bit about the breed. Elf | Talk 16:02, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sure individual variations abound. I just want to draw attention to the fact that the Wikipedia article says generally very loving and gentle with children. I think this may be an exaggeration. I think our goal should be to be objective. 'In general' we all know that there is a great difference between, say, an American Pit Bull Terrier and, say, a Boston Terrier. In the case of the former, an individul dog may be friendly, but don't count on it. In the case of the latter, an individual dog may not be friendly, but they usually are. Yet if you read their respective Wikipedia articles, potential owners are cautioned in both cases that individual dogs can have temperament problems. This is the correct way to present these breeds. I don't think it would hurt to note that Catahoulas, like fox hound breeds, are probably best left in the hands of professionals as working dogs, and not as family pets.
BTW, I'm sorry I keep leaving my signature off these things.Wcrowe 16:37, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Forty lashes with a wet noodle!
Here's one response to my email call for info:

I am a professional dog trainer in Davis, CA. I am also a credentialed teacher. One of my interests is dog bite prevention and how to build good relationships between children and dogs. I find that there is a strong correlation between how dogs have been socialized around children and whether they have been allowed to form good associations between children and good things happening to the dog. This is much more important for dog bite prevention than the particular breed of the dog. All breeds of dogs are capable of biting children.

I have had a couple of Catahoulas go through my classes and I am well acquainted with several others. The Catahoulas that I know adore children. They seek them out and truly put the children in danger of being licked to death. I have seen them ignore food and other dogs to greet a small child. All of the Catahoulas that I know have been properly socialized with young children and this is the key to all successful dog/child relationsips. These are my experiences.

Catahoulas are resource guarders, similar to Border Collies. They like to know who is in charge and what the rules are. This is very similar to many herding and working breeds. Catahoulas respond well to positive reinforcement and negative punishment. They learn quickly. The breed is bred to work all day. Their needs for mental and physical exercise must have suitable outlets-much the same as any adolescent Labrador.

Cheers, Nancy Abplanalp

Dog Manners

And my friend with the Catahoulas says that her dogs were raised from puppies with children; one indeed will go out of her way to go play with kids and isn't fazed in the slightest by a strange, very young child grabbing her around the waist and trying to drag her around. My friend does say that she has to be careful with her dogs around other dogs, but my understanding is that it's primarily because of their tendency to protect their own property (such as a thrown frisbee, for example), although she does prefer to take them out and about at dog events one at a time because the two of them can feed off of each other's pack mentality regarding other dogs. She also says that her dogs were raised in the home as pets and companion animals; dogs raised out in the yard or woods as hunting dogs might have an entirely different demeanor. And she emphasized that Catahoulas are *not* the kind of dog for someone to get as their first dog; they require a lot of training from a handler with experience, confidence, and assertion.
She also wants to remind people (and I'd agree) not to base one's impression of any breed on what one sees at dog parks; I have seen some very odd attitudes by owners at dog parks and their dogs reflect them quite closely. I stopped going to one for a while because there were a couple of people who felt that it was "natural" for dogs to pin other dogs to the ground and snarl to establish dominance and so of course that's what their dogs did to all the dogs they could, or fought with the ones who wouldn't. But I'd judge more about the owner than about the breeds from such behavior. Elf | Talk 03:09, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm learning a lot about Catahoulas here. Still, what I am consistently seeing is that it is very important that the dogs need to be well-socialized, need a stern owner, and are not good choices for first-time dog owners. Is it too much to ask that something along these lines be included in the article?
My research has led me to a related, but little-known breed. I give you:

== I find it odd that the only negative comment comes from someone who does not even own a Catahoula and whose only experience is based on the two that frequent his dog park. Does it not occur to him that training has a lot to do with a dog's behavior. I have two Catahoulas who are both well trained and are excellently behaved around children, both my own and others from the neighborhood. I have an 8 year old and a 14 year old of my own and a 2 year old grandson and two granddaughters under the age of 1 who are at the house all day. There is not one case of the dogs being aggressive with any of the children or any of the adult visitors to my house. As a matter of fact, I have a Welsh Corgi who is "queen" of the house and she has attacked my female Catahoula when she thought the Catahoula was getting too much attention. The Catahoula just stood there while the Corgi latched onto her neck and did not even attempt to retaliate. I have never seen two more mellow dogs. Yet when it comes to protecting the family, such as when two aggressive pit bulls were roaming through the woods behind my house - my dogs viligantly patrolled the fence line and would undoubtedly have protected us had we been in any danger.

Rbilleaud (talk) 19:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC) Rob Billeaud


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I am hoping that I might clarify some of the misconceptions and confusion that I am seeing in this article regarding the temperament of the Catahoula. First off, I will say that I have owned three Catahoulas and know several breeders not only in California but in Louisiana and Florida as well. I have several friends who use these dogs for hunting hogs and others who use them to deal with cattle and others who show them in the bay pen. I am not trying to sell a catahoula to anyone nor am I attempting to sway people to believe anything but the truth about these dogs. What I have to say is this: If you are confused about the conflicting statements about Catahoulas, let me say that it is all true. How? Well, when a Catahoula is young, it needs and requires 24/7 training and supervision. Depending on your need for the dog, the training needs to be started young and it is important to be firm, fair and consistent. They need to know who is boss and they will question that authority if they see any weakness in it. Just like a teenager who questions a parent, this breed will do that too. They have a terrible two's just like a kid. Once they have passed about the three year mark, (given a balanced environment) these dogs will considerably mellow out, much like a mid-twenty something son or daughter. I have a 12 year old who has lived on ranches, in apartments and small houses. She has not been aggressive at any point and was raised around children the first two years of her life. If you want a Catahoula to be child friendly, you must raise them as a puppy around the child or children and provide constant supervision and authority. They must be treated as a lower pack member and you must set rules that apply to ALL PACK MEMBERS. They see unfairness and they will question this as poor authority. What goes for one dog goes for all of them. period. Positive reinforcement works great with them however there are times when a good butt spanking cannot be avoided. When they mature with their rules, they will stick by them. Depending on the temperament of the individual dog, rules is rules is rules. And don't you forget it. They mellow out to the point that they need maybe 20 minutes of exercise versus the hour every day in their youth. They want to please, love and protect you and your territory. The wolf gene does add the element of roaming, which if trained and exercised properly can be minimized. That same gene also demands an understanding of pack order and behavior. Most communication is non verbal and it is important to know this element to be effective as a leader with them. I personally would not recommend this dog for an apartment or small home in the city. They are better suited for ranch lifestyle. That being said, there are exceptions to every breed, no matter what. Most aggression problems in Catahoulas are going to be seen when a home does NOT have a strong pack leader and does not enforce rules or exercise consistently. This breed REQUIRES at least one hour of exercise EVERY DAY until they are in their dog 30's. I routinely would run mine with the quad or truck to get their run time in. When they feel that they have good leadership and are exposed to all elements of life, country, city, children, loud noise, etc, they are mellow good working dogs. However they do need a job and if you don't really have one for them, they have a tendency to create their own work. Make sure they have a job, even if it is letting you know when someone is coming to the front door. Most hog hunters would be screaming at me for even saying this much as many believe the Catahoula needs to stay free of AKC and be bred in the way is has for the past 400 years. I agree with that. Don't take a dog that you think looks cool and attempt to domesticate it in a job that it was never bred for. It's like taking a football kid and trying to make him into a science nerd. They are thugs and are meant to run the show - that is why being a strong pack leader is so important. Back in the day these dogs replaced working ranch hands at the tune of 1 dog to 3 ranch hands. They are meant to be down and dirty cow and hog dogs that will be loyal as long as you prove your leadership is worthy of their support. You cannot be a politician with these dogs. Either put up or shut up. And they will do the same for you. These dogs require about 2-3 years of hard work if you want them domesticated. The end result is priceless and I would not take back having the catahoulas that I do. They are extremely smart, and if you compare them to any intelligent being, they are going to question their world and be curious about it. As owners, it is our job to show them how to appropriately do so. Breeds of dogs are not the issue here. Competent owners who make educated decisions based upon their abilities and needs ARE. SLF nehbet7@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.117.33.29 (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I have 8 catahoulas and all of mine are loving and gentle towards children. And mine bay and hunt in the woods as well. It is all in how you raise them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasquatchcatahoula (talk • contribs) 00:29, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Ref tags / subsection mix-up

Would someone more familiar with this article be able to straighten this out? I am not entirely sure how it was intended to be laid out.

===Bowie brothers===
[[Jim Bowie]] and his brother [[Rezin Bowie]], who spent much of their youth in [[Catahoula Parish, Louisiana|Catahoula Parish]] are
reported to have owned a pair of Catahoulas. They were said to sleep with a Catahoula at their feet.<ref name="autogenerated1">

===Teddy Roosevelt===
[http://crackercatahoulas.com/his.html Cracker Catahoulas]</ref> During the early 1900s, [[Teddy Roosevelt]] used the Catahoula when hunting.

Thanks KConWiki (talk) 23:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Photos returned

Coat types? Catahoulas have the same coat type, it's the color pattern determined through the "merle gene" that creates the various Catahoulas. Through research, I found the photos represent entirely separate coat colors and thus variety of Catahoulas. First, the photo within the box is a blue Catahoula... not to be confused with the "patchwork" Catahoula also shown. The red solid Catahoula is not the same as the brindle one drinking water. I also added details on coats, eyes, and feet. Noles1984 19:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. Why didn't you just say so about ten thousands reverts ago? Listen, constantly re-contributing an image you created, and thus probably your dog, to an article without providing any talk justification when it is hotly contested is not okay. In the future, if you'd simply discussed with me that patchwork is a different type even if it is the same color as the infobox image, I could have listened to reason. But simply reverting to a poor image of what is most likely your pet is not going to just set without discussion. I spaced out the image some to avoid "image stacking" (placing image one on top of the other) which is something expressly discouraged. and by coat types, I mean the simplest definition: variations in coat either in pattern, texture or color. VanTucky 19:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I knew there were differences but they needed documentation. It was two edits or so, then I created a gallery. And so what if I have a Catahoula? It doesn't change the facts. You wrote: "if you'd simply discussed with me that patchwork is a different type even if it is the same color as the infobox image, I could have listened to reason." (1) You're not part of Wiki's dog project. (2) You're an admitted deletionist and therefor delete on the fly. Preventing image stacking is fine with me. Noles1984 20:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not an admitted deletionist. I have changed my stance significantly after participating on the Keep side in multiple AFD's recently. Even if I was, that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore discussing the edits at hand. An admitted deletionist making deletions isn't some magic excuse to disregard someone entirely. Second, it's not a COI to simply own a dog, but there is no getting around the fact that adding your personal pet's photo to an article without discussion or justification is most likely to be taken as an attempt to misuse a Wikipedia article. It happens all the time. But most importantly, WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK IF I'M NOT A MEMBER OF WIKIPROJECT DOG. 1. all it takes to become a member to add my name to a list, I can do it right now. 2. Wikiproject dog doesn't own this article or any other. It's a collaboration of editors who get together to work on a type of article in a concentrated effort, not a governing body. For you to simply dismiss another editor's concerns bc they aren't a member of an applicable project isn't just counter-productive, it's a serious breach of Wikiquette. VanTucky 20:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Jesus Christ. Why didn't you just say so about ten thousands reverts ago?"

Ten thousand? Like two edits! Using Jesus Christ could be construed as swearing! I don't care but someone migh

"Listen, constantly re-contributing an image you created, and thus probably your dog, to an article without providing any talk justification when it is hotly contested is not okay."

Listen, you're the admitted deletionist and do it on the fly without thought. And which image are you referring to? Hotly contested? Where'd you get that from? As if it's an administrative hot subject.

"In the future, if you'd simply discussed with me that patchwork is a different type even if it is the same color as the infobox image, I could have listened to reason."

Your sentence does not make sense. How can I in the future have discussed (past tense) anything with you? Plus, I did research to find that image was different (patchwork vs. blue)

"But simply reverting to a poor image of what is most likely your pet is not going to just set without discussion.

Poor image? Which image is poor? What if it is my dog? Does that detract from true content? Might I remind you I fixed your photo. Now that was a poor image.

"I spaced out the image some to avoid "image stacking" (placing image one on top of the other) which is something expressly discouraged."

That's good. I guess resolution has a lot to do with that. As if I'm a Wiki terrorist. I'm not doing it because I'm destructive. What resolution are you using?

"and by coat types, I mean the simplest definition: variations in coat either in pattern, texture or color."

You didn't specify, you just said coat types. Color is not a type. Do you own a dog? Back to my porno I go. Noles1984 20:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I know taking the name of jesus christ in vain might be construed as swearing, that's how I meant it. Wikipedia isn't censored for religious sensibilities.
I said ten thousand because I have removed the image of your puppy many times in this article in different context's. And yes, I meant your image was the poor one. It is fuzzy, dark, and bad composition. Don't mean to be personal or comment on the subject matter, it's just empirically poor quality. I am not a deletionist, especially not an admitted one. In fact, I have a userbox on my userpage that warns I am strongly against courtesy deletions. Besides, deletionism/inclusion tends to revolve around AFD debates (i.e. entire articles, not content disputes). Even if I was a deletionist, I would not/do not delete "on the fly", whatever that means. This is a good case in point. I saw an image I have personally deleted several times before, but I stopped and examined the evidence and circumstances before making a decision. That hardly seems like "on the fly" to me. Hotly contested only means that someone (in this case me) had a big gripe with the content in question. It doesn't attempt to give consesus or legitimacy to my arguments, only recognizes that there was a strong disagreement. Yes, I have owned several dogs throughout my life, and other animals. But not everyone uses a breeder's/shower's obscure jargon. But that is beside the point, once again you are forgetting that there is no qualifier to editing certain subject matter. I don't have to own a dog, breed dogs, or even ever had to have seen a dog to edit this article. That's Wikipedia. I don't think, nor have I ever accused you of being a "Wikiterrorist", again whatever the hell that is. I just fixed something that needed fixing.
Oh, so you couldn't have had a good encyclopedic justification for your image until you went hunting for one, so that is why you didn't discuss a contested edit? That's a great excuse. VanTucky 23:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed the lede photo to a better quality image that shows the most stereotypical coat type on a stark background. This provides a better representation of the breed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phattums (talk • contribs) 13:40, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

LOL I just placed a note in your talk page and here you've already done just as I suggested! I guess you can ignore my other message. I reverted your edit for now (I hadn't seen this talk update at the time) because I want the other editor to have a chance to respond. I happen to think that yours is the better photo and I support updating the lede. I am not an expert on the breed though so I prefer to leave the question of whether it's representative of a Catahoula Cur to a neutral third party. I do believe that it is a beautifully composed image and that it would enhance the article's overall value. If we do not get any feedback at all in a couple of days then go ahead and make your edit. If we do not achieve consensus here there are other places such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Dogs where we can go to solicit more input. Thanks, Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 14:14, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Dave. I have been researching Catahoulas as I'm considering adopting one. In my experience, the Blue Merle coat seems to be the most common, stereotypical coat for the breed. However, I recommend that the body of this article display a range of coats, as one of the unique traits of this breed is that, due to the priority of temperament over appearance in its selective breeding process, there is a very wide range of appearance from one individual to the next. One unrelated question: As I'm new to Wikipedia, what does it mean to be an editor of a page, and how does one achieve the role? Thanks, Brian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phattums (talk • contribs) 14:00, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Brian. First I'd like to point out that since you opened this topic there has been no input from any other editors, including the one who put the current picture in the lede. Therefore I think you've done your due diligence and can put the blue merle in the lede as you've proposed. If you feel that the current lede photo adds value to the article but just isn't representative enough to have the lede role ;-) then please feel free to find a more suitable location for that image. There is guidance for images in the manual of style if you are unsure of yourself. I will update your talk page with information about editing since an article's talk page is supposed to be just for editors to exchange ideas and opinions on how to improve the article. Thanks, Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 17:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I snapped a photo of my buddy's Catahoula this past weekend that I think would work much better as the lede photo. Very high quality image showing a blue merle coated Catahoula in a very nice profile position, which shows the physique of the breed as well as the so-called "question mark tail" that is also typical of the breed. Please let me know what you think and feel free to swap this image in if you agree.

Catahoula Cur with blue merle coat.

CharlesFuchs1 (talk) 13:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Please Triple-Check Images!

Before using an image, please triple-check that the dog is actually a Catahoula! If the image cannot be traced back to a reliable source such as a reputable Catahoula breeder it is better to simply leave it out; after all, there are quite a few nice pictures in the article already. I removed the picture of the Aussie mix that was under color. These dogs do not have pointy noses or rose ears or flying nun ears. The ears are often a big giveaway as to whether or not the dog is a mix, since the common breeds used in the "faux Catahoula Craigslist special" do not have the V-shaped ears of a Catahoula.

This is still kind of a "young" breed and there are tons of people out there selling merle mixes of pit, dane, and Australian shepherd background or hog dogs that are crosses of pit bull and Catahoula as "purebred Catahoulas." Because of this it is important to make sure that the images on the wiki are accurate. Thanks to all and happy Wiki-ing! — Preceding unsigned comment added by MinervaELS (talk • contribs) 04:16, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

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Common name

Do other editors have an opinion on the common name of this breed? To me, based on the sources, it looks like it's either Catahoula Leopard Dog or Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog, rather than Catahoula Cur. The American Kennel Club calls it "Catahoula Leopard Dog",[2] so I'd lean towards that. Thoughts? If others agree, I'd propose moving this article to its common name. —PermStrump(talk) 04:25, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree that "Catahoula Cur" is extremely uncommon way to refer to the breed, and that the article should be moved under "Catahoula Leopard Dog" which is the most common. 24.193.124.89 (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

American Leopard Hound is NOT the same as the Catahoula Leopard Dog

American Leopard Hound currently redirects to this article. However, the American Kennel Club sees them as two separate breeds: http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/groups/foundation-stock-service/ --Canarian (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I think it's time to turn the redirect into a separate article. The UKC standard would also be an excellent source. The Leopard Hound looks a lot different from the Catahoula, more "houndy" and is described as a treeing dog. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog OR American Leopard Hound

Is this article for the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog (registered name with UKC)? 

https://www.ukcdogs.com/louisiana-catahoula-leopard-dog

OR is this for the American Leopard Hound, formerly called the Leopard Cur (registered name with UKC)? 

https://www.ukcdogs.com/american-leopard-hound-

There is no dog registered with the name Catahoula Cur, so where are these breed standards coming from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:701:c000:1125:1cd6:25e3:fdd0:c75c (talk • contribs) 03:18, April 26, 2018 (UTC)


Page needs to be moved to Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog Periwinkle Epee (talk) 17:14, 27 April 2018 (UTC)Periwinkle Epee

Why? Meters (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Having looked at the article, some of refs, and the previous discussions it seems that per WP:COMMONAME this article should be moved to either "Catahoula Leopard Dog" or "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog". I'm not a dog expert so I'll leave it for others to discuss the merits of those two names. The American Leopard Hound appears to be a different breed. Meters (talk) 17:33, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Just to pull previously mentioned kennel club refs together, AKC has Catahoula Leopard Dog at http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/catahoula-leopard-dog/ (not an official breed standard) and UKC has Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog at https://www.ukcdogs.com/louisiana-catahoula-leopard-dog Meters (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
And the National Association of Louisiana Catahoulas calls the breed the "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog" http://www.nalc-inc.org/NALC-Standard.html Meters (talk) 17:44, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 23 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog at this time, per the discussion below. If you would like to move the page to a different title, please feel free to initiate a new move request at any time. Dekimasuよ! 18:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Catahoula Cur → Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog – There seems to be consensus that this article should be at either "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog" or "Catahoula Leopard Dog". Both versions are in use. "Catahoula Cur" appears to be an older name from before the breed was recognized in breed standards. The National Association of Louisiana Catahoulas was formed in 1977 and its breed standard is entitled "NALC Official Standard for the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog" http://www.nalc-inc.org/NALC-Standard.htm. The breed was recognized as the official State dog of Louisiana in 1979 as the "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog". The UKC recognized the breed in 1995 as the "Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog" https://www.ukcdogs.com/louisiana-catahoula-leopard-dog . The AKC, on the other hand, uses "Catahoula Leopard Dog" but it is not an official standard http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/catahoula-leopard-dog/ Meters (talk) 18:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Mahveotm (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Lowercase dog; many source use "leopard dog" lowercase, too, while some use "Leopard dog"; Catahoula Leopard is also used in front of other words, and seems to be the breed name. Dicklyon (talk) 06:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Main image

I think a more illustrative image is necessary, an image that represents a better example of the breed. A quick look at the official breed standard by the United Kennel Club can help us (Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog Official Standard by the United Kennel Club). I recommend one of these images just below: Adventurous36 (talk) 01:52, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

  • recommend image 1
    recommend image 1
  • recommend image 2
    recommend image 2
  • recommend image 3
    recommend image 3
user has posted same suggestion to use one of his or her copies of other editors' images three times. Please discuss this at the most recent post in main thread talk:Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog#Lede Image Meters (talk) 03:18, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Suspected Mixed Breed Picture

A comment to a recent edit states, "Removed picture of suspected mixed breed dog. The photoe of a mixed breed dog should not be used to represent a purebred dog, especially in an encyclopedia article. Wording was also added to emphasize that longer coats are very rare in the breed." Catahoula Curs are Curs, so where is the problem showing a suspected mixed breed dog? Isn't that part of the point of the origin of the breed? Where is the suspicion of the mixed nature of the dog in the photo discussed? Victor Engel (talk) 21:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The main image has become controversial since the breed become a purebreed. I think a more illustrative image is necessary, an image that represents a better example of the breed. A quick look at the official breed standard of the United Kennel Club can help us (Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog Official Standard by the United Kennel Club). I recommend one of these images just below: Adventurous36 (talk) 22:30, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
  • recommended image 1
    recommended image 1
  • recommended image 2
    recommended image 2
  • recommended image 3
    recommended image 3
    • Adventurous36 (talk) 22:30, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
    user has posted same suggestion to use one of his or her copies of other editors' images three times. Please discuss this at the most recent post in main thread talk:Louisiana Catahoula Leopard dog#Lede Image Meters (talk) 03:25, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

    Merger proposal

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    The result of this discussion was merge reliably sourced content. Cavalryman (talk) 09:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

    Discussion

    As I stated on Talk:Catahoula bulldog, this dog type is a mixed breed with no reliable way to verify parentage or ancestry. Without the ability to verify parentage, there is no way to know an animal's genetic predisposition, temperament, or inheritable physical characteristics. The only significant breed that is noticeable in this cross is the Catahoula Leopard dog which is dependent on coloring and the occasional bulldog characteristics that may or may not show. Sight id is undependable as proven by DNA tests and the widespread misidentifying of dogs that have led to wrongful euthanizing. In this particular crossbreed, the percentage of American Bulldog remains undetermined short of DNA testing; therefore, this particular cross fails notability as a standalone article. It is yet to be determined with regards to how much we should actually merge into this article, if anything. One of the many questionable internet sources (which appear to be the only sources available) about the Catahoula bulldog states: With any mixed-breed, a dog can be a different percentage of each breed; therefore all of the characteristics of both breeds must be taken into consideration. You never know which natural traits a dog will or will not be born with. Atsme Talk 📧 16:10, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

    • Strong support. Given the lack of RS that is the logical solution. Cavalryman (talk) 21:02, 22 October 2019 (UTC).
    • Support as op. Atsme Talk 📧 20:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
    • Support William Harristalk 21:46, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
    • Support. Even major breeds with 100+ years of history have various sub-breeds or divisions, and we do not treat them in independent articles, with only rare exceptions (usually because of one or more kennel clubs "forking" them into their own breed). Frankly, any time I see a stub (or a repetitive near-copy-paste of a more general article) for some little-known breed variant, when I go looking I find that it's usually been created for promotional purposes by someone with a fiduciary interest.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
      What's this? The Mac is back! The self-imposed exile has concluded. It has now been two weeks Atsme - it is time to put it out of its misery. William Harristalk 23:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
      Yeah, I'm back, and you already want to put me out of my misery. Ah-ooooo...  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Support This is nowhere near what is required to have an article. In fact, I don't even think there is much in Catahoula bulldog that needs merging. A simple redirect would probably suffice. A completely unsourced article that starts off "The Catahoula bulldog is believed to be a crossbreed created by crossing the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog and the American Bulldog..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meters (talk • contribs) 23:56, November 7, 2019 (UTC)
      Yep. This is backyard-breeder mongrel/cross stuff at best. While we can have articles like labradoodle when a cross is sufficiently well-established and popular and verging on standardized (even being bred to itself, and thus on the way to becoming a breed) because of significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources (WP:GNG), this just isn't it. We have allegations that some people have made such a cross, but so what? It's neither reliable or nor notable. It's not even interesting. Unless you try something with utterly incompatible body structure (like perhaps Great Dane × Chihuahua) any dog crossbreed is liable to be viable, and the majority of dogs running around in the world are in fact mixed mutts.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
    I agree with SMcCandlish, a simple redirect would suffice, there is nothing reliably sourced at Catahoula bulldog and so nothing should be merged here. Cavalryman (talk) 08:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC).
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Catahoula_Leopard_Dog/Archive_1&oldid=1251307762"