Talk:Cambric

ugh

This is a terrible page. WTF is chambray? Shouldn't the opening paragraph tell me that? I know it's a fabric, but what is it? Ridiculous.

Is Batiste the same? Xx236 10:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

See below.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Cambric shirt

Isn't a Cambric shirt something you get buried in? linas 05:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Cambric material

Cambric is much older than Monsieur Cambrai and therefore could not have been invented by him - this derivation must therefore be considered bogus.

The word appears as "cambre" in the online Anglo-Norman Dictionary with several meanings:

♦ hemp ♦ linen ♦ cambric (linen cloth)

The Anglo-Norman dictionary includes citations for its use in literature with these specific meanings, dating from the 12th century onwards. Cambre is derived from the town of Cambrai in France which was a main centre of production ('Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 1928 edition'). As with many terms for fabric, its meaning has changed over the centuries and the term later came to be applied to cotton cloth, which was an extremely rare commodity in the 12th century.

Ranulfus 09:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Monsieur Cambrai

Ranulfus, I think the "Jean-Baptiste Cambrai" is from a botched edit from November 14, 2005 (replacing "first used in Cambrai"). Whoever put that in must've meant Jean-Baptiste something-or-other in Cambrai, France.

(Kejo13 (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC))

According to the French article his name is Baptiste Cambray, and he was born near Cambrai. Yves-Laurent (talk) 06:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Old hoax.Racconish ^Tk 20:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Batiste

The French WP article «Batiste» treats batiste and cambric as synonyms. Therefore the two English articles on these topics should probably be merged.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggest merging Cambric into Batiste as Batiste is more used than Cambric. Some refs here. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 11:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

For further discussion see here. The consensus is to keep the two articles separate.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The following text is a copy take from the history of the discussion here ...

Editing the article "Batiste" was what led me to the Charvet article as well. There is so much information on the same topic in the Cambric article that a merge may be appropriate.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:42, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a little caveat : cambric is always linen, while batiste - specially in modern usage - is not. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 07:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

As there is this difference the best thing would be to copy what is relevant to "batiste" from the "cambric" article so that "batiste" contains information on the usage before 1898.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Hardouin-Fugier, Elisabeth; Berthod, Bernard; Clement-Fusaro, Martine (1994). Les Etoffes. Dictionnaire historique (in French). Les Editions de l'Amateur. pp. 81–82, 120. ISBN 2-85917-175-4. Batiste. Toile de lin très fine et blanche qui, selon la légende, porterait le nom de son inventeur, ouvrier de Cambrai au XVIIe siècle, appelé Jean-Batiste Chambray, industriel du XVIIIe siècle. En fait, le nom semble dérivé du radical flamand "batiche", qui signifie "battre"[...] Au XVIIe siècle, c'est un article de luxe : selon les Mémoires de madame de Motteville, l'épouse de Louis XIII, Anne d'Autriche, recherche les plus fines batistes pour ses chemises et ses draps. De 0,80 à 0,90m. Au XVIIIe siècle, la production se répand, en particulier dans le Cambrésis, en Artois et en Picardie. On distingue la batiste claire d'Artois, Picardie et Cambrésis, 0,70 et 0,88m, la batiste moyenne, la batiste écrue, dite toile d'ortie, la batiste hollandée, très serrée, très unie, comme la toiel de Hollande. On l'utilise pour les surplis et les rochets ecclésiastiques, les rabats, les cravates et les manchettes. La fabrication se poursuit dans le Nord au XIXe siècle, en particulier pour l'exportation à La Havane et dans les colonies espagnoles où la France se heurte à la concurrence anglaise. L'Exposition Universelle de Londres (1851) témoinge de la rivalité qui oppose France, Pays-Bas, Suisse, Bohême et Silésie dans le domaine de la finesse, où triomphent les filés anglais. les utilisations ne varient qu'à peine d'un siècle à l'autre : surplis, rabats, jabots, manchettes pour les gens du monde, les ecclésiastiques et les magistrats, garnitures de tête pour les femmes, draps fins, chemises et, surtout au XIXe siècle, mouchoirs. AU XXe siècle, étoffe, souvent blanche, mercerisée en pièce. Armure toile, tissée en écru puis blanchie ou teinte en pièce ou imprimée. Batiste cristalline. Tissage transparent, réalisé en fil retors au XXe siècle. Batiste d'ananas. Etoffe tissée avec les fibres collées (et non tordues) d'un végétal de la famille des broméliacées. Le tissage résultant est d'une extrême transparence. Batiste d'Ecosse. Catégorie de mousseline fabriquée à Tarare et à Saint-Quentin, mais aussi en Angleterre et en Suisse. L'apprêt spécial provient d'Ecosse. Devient le nom générique d'une étoffe en coton à texture très serrée. Batiste Maco. Nom de la meilleure qualité de coton très fine, proche de la batiste mercerisée ou même de l'organdi, au XXe siècle. Cambric. Toile fabriquée à Cambrai en écru, blanchie ou teinte en pièce, parfois apprêtée et calandrée, proche du nansouk. Autrefois tissé en lin, au XIXe siècle, le cambric est fabriqué en coton. Les plus belles qualités servent à confectionner du linge, des mouchoirs et des tissus à broder. "Cotton Glossary". American Fabrics Encyclopedia of Textiles. Prentice-Hall. 1960. p. 91. Batiste. A fine soft cotton fabric usually woven of combed yarns and mercerized for extra strength and luster. Corset batiste ai a strong, heavy, plain-woven cotton similar to poplin. Cambric. Closely woven, white cotton fabric which are finished with a slight gloss on one side. It seems I was wrong : neither name implies linen and batiste is always expected to be a fine yarn, althouh the AF encyclopedia motes, p. 254, it has been stated "the greatest thread [of cambric] was not even the size of the smallest hair". It seems I was wrong : neither name implies linen and batiste is always expected to be a fine yarn. I suggest merging cambric into batiste. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 10:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

For the time being I have copied part of the cambric article into batiste. I would rather not do any more on the batiste / cambric articles as textiles and fashion are outside the fields which I am used to working with. My French is rather poor nowadays. Your opinion indicates adding the merge tag to "batiste" again.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

As the French WP article "Batiste" refers to "cambric as the English word for batiste I am in doubt which way it should go. Maybe another member of the Textile Arts wikiproject will express an opinion.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 13:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand your concern and have asked PKM's opinion. My take is cambric is older than batiste in English, but implies only a geographic origin from Cambrai. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 16:06, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

This one is tricky. "Cambric" in English goes back to 1530 (as "cameryk", later also "cambric", "cammeraige", "camroche", etc.). The OED says that "batiste" is the French word for "cambric" but is used in English for a "fine, light fabric of similar texture, but differently finished, and made of cotton as well as of linen," with the first citation (as "baptist") in 1697.

So using the French "batiste" as a source for English "cambric" seems right. My first reaction is to keep the two articles separate in EN Wikipedia, and make the distinction. I'd love to do some digging on that concept "differently finished" but I'm not sure I own a reference that specific. - PKM (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with PKM here. (I saw the mention on her talk page and this interested me so I'm here). I also share PKM's first reaction in that the two articles should be kept separate, with a distinction made, as they are two distinct fabrics, and are not interchangeable terms for the same textile. Mabalu (talk) 17:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanls PKM and Mabalu. I am also fine with that. The second reference I quoted above, the AF Encyclopedia, gives some precisions on the finishing. I guess it implied calendering, which somehow hardens the finish, while batiste is meant to be softer. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 18:43, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

October 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Ann Murdock may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page here:

• [[File:Where Love Is.jpg|left|thumb|upright|''Where Love Is'' '1917)]]

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 13:32, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done — Racconish^Tk 13:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

cambric tea

A drink for children, made of hot water, milk, sugar, and usually a small amount of tea. [So called because it is thin and white like cambric. ... Earliest reference I could find is from 1882's 'Ting-a-ling', but usage persists to the present, mostly in genre/period fiction. 69.125.59.43 (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: a photo showing a Chambray shirt. 76.190.213.189 (talk) 01:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)